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The quests! The quests! They burn my eyes!

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  • DibdabsDibdabs Member RarePosts: 2,926
    Originally posted by jimsmith08


    in lotro youre killing wolves,boars and spiders (human area)
    cave claws, wolves and lynx (dwarf/elf)
    Bree land: more bears and boars, wolves (old forest) bandits
    ered luin: bears, boars, dwarf bandits, spiders
    Lone lands: boars, goblins, craban, orcs, wargs, spiders
    north downs: boars, wolves, wargs, spiders, goblins...and so on.
    and you continue to kill those same wolves/boars/bears and spiders for the next 40+ levels.

    That's exactly what I detest in MMOs. I binned LOTRO for the same reason. From the first and second zones in Spellborn I'm seeing too many quests that involve just what you have described above.  It's a shame, because the combat system is interesting enough to give some clever permutations and simple enough to grasp quickly.  The rest of the game just seems the old "copy and paste" of every other game out there.  It looks like my first month of subs will indeed be my last.  

    I don't really believe the quests are tailored to help you learn the system, either - what's to learn?  If you've played MMOs for almost a decade, and played or tried out dozens of them, the system is about average in difficulty. The tutorial is quite good, but it could just as easily have been skipped entirely.

    If I'm playing a game that is supposedly Heroic Fantasy, I don't want to be killing the same old yard trash every other quest and selling various dripping chunks of meat, sinew, skin, teeth and bone to any NPC in town be it a blacksmith, bookshop owner or a seamstress.

     

  • jimsmith08jimsmith08 Member Posts: 1,039

    Ive said it before, I think Hawksmouth is terrible and lots of other people agree. Whether theyll change it or not I dunno, but its not a great advertisement for your game is it? Its like the lotro example above, the North downs has you killing the same bears, wargs and aurochs over and over and over for multiple quests. Thats exactly what Spellborn has as its starter zone.

  • DelanorDelanor Member Posts: 659
    Originally posted by Dibdabs
    I don't really believe the quests are tailored to help you learn the system, either - what's to learn?   

     

    Although I agree with the first part, most players find out too late what there was to learn in the starter zone the easy way, so they have to learn it the hard way or leave the game in frustration. Most players have come too accustomed to the WoW/EQ2/Vanguard/LoTRo/etc. type of game play and really need to learn to move while fighting. Most players really can use some practice at that.

    --
    Delanor

  • AganazerAganazer Member Posts: 1,319
    Originally posted by jimsmith08


    in lotro youre killing wolves,boars and spiders (human area)

     

    Exactly, but there are two differences. LotRO combat is almost exactly like WoW, which isn't a problem by itself, but if you've played WoW for any lengthy period of time then you're already sick to death of that combat style. Its amazing how you can start LotRO for the first time ever and feel like you've already played the game for 5 years after the first 2 hours of playing it. Besides the gorgeous graphics, I found nothing new to keep me interested.



    The other difference is that the LotRO tutorial area does have some nice cutscenes and story elements all divided into nice little bite sized pieces that make them easy to digest. All games could use more of that, but its really just window dressing. If the setting wasn't the same old Tolkein world that I've been reading about since I was 10 years old then I would care more, but again, I was sick of that setting 20 years ago.

  • jusagamfrekjusagamfrek Member Posts: 56
    Originally posted by jimsmith08


    in lotro youre killing wolves,boars and spiders (human area)
    cave claws, wolves and lynx (dwarf/elf)
    Bree land: more bears and boars, wolves (old forest) bandits
    ered luin: bears, boars, dwarf bandits, spiders
    Lone lands: boars, goblins, craban, orcs, wargs, spiders
    north downs: boars, wolves, wargs, spiders, goblins...and so on.



     

    Yes there is some of that in the first 15 levels (which is what I was talking about, and what was relevant to the op's topic), but unlike spellborn, that wasn't the only thing you did, and even when you were killing them, you weren't running the same ground over and over and over... and over.  As a human you start out in a burning village and are tasked with rescuing some hobbits.  Elves start out defending the besieged villa.  Dwarves and hobbits had their own similarly engaging introductions.  And only after they were completed did you get a few "kill X bears".  Even then, the quests rarely had you retread the same ground, and this was interspersed with excellent story quests (if you bothered to read them).  And the "only real storyline" started right off the bat - not once you had passed the showcase levels.  Yes, after 15 LotRO gets repetetive, which is why I didn't talk about it, while Spellborn's post-showcase levels are where it really shines.  But again, that's the problem.  Spellborn doesn't show its stripes until after the player has decided whether or not to pay dollar one.  It's first few levels only showcase a little of what the game has to offer, and the vast majority will turn away before it gets good.  And for those saying to themselves, "good riddance", understand you are throwing away the money that will keep this game going.

  • jimsmith08jimsmith08 Member Posts: 1,039
    Originally posted by jusagamfrek

    Originally posted by jimsmith08


    in lotro youre killing wolves,boars and spiders (human area)
    cave claws, wolves and lynx (dwarf/elf)
    Bree land: more bears and boars, wolves (old forest) bandits
    ered luin: bears, boars, dwarf bandits, spiders
    Lone lands: boars, goblins, craban, orcs, wargs, spiders
    north downs: boars, wolves, wargs, spiders, goblins...and so on.



     

    Yes there is some of that in the first 15 levels (which is what I was talking about, and what was relevant to the op's topic), but unlike spellborn, that wasn't the only thing you did, and even when you were killing them, you weren't running the same ground over and over and over... and over.  As a human you start out in a burning village and are tasked with rescuing some hobbits.  Elves start out defending the besieged villa.  Dwarves and hobbits had their own similarly engaging introductions.  And only after they were completed did you get a few "kill X bears".  Even then, the quests rarely had you retread the same ground, and this was interspersed with excellent story quests (if you bothered to read them).  And the "only real storyline" started right off the bat - not once you had passed the showcase levels.  Yes, after 15 LotRO gets repetetive, which is why I didn't talk about it, while Spellborn's post-showcase levels are where it really shines.  But again, that's the problem.  Spellborn doesn't show its stripes until after the player has decided whether or not to pay dollar one.  It's first few levels only showcase a little of what the game has to offer, and the vast majority will turn away before it gets good.  And for those saying to themselves, "good riddance", understand you are throwing away the money that will keep this game going.



     

     its not something you do now and again! The intros are seperate from the actual game world and take all of 20 minutes to do and can even be skipped. the human starter area, before you get to the burning of archet, has you killing 10 spiders, 8 boars, 6 wolves and a few small fedex quests. the same in Ered luin, except here its cave claws, wolves and goblins, the same goblin and wolf models youll be fighting in misty mountains at level 40.

    It is pretty much the only thing you do in that game -kill 10 of something for its nose or hide or whatever- and this goes on from level 1 up to level 60. people are even complaining about the grinds in MoM which have gotten way out of hand.

    The same bears, wolves, wargs, spiders and goblins are used throughout the game and it wasnt ntil forochel that we actually started to see some new mob types, and even then it was only panthers and the ice spirits.

    I dont know which areas you were playing in, but youre constantly treading the same ground. In fact, if you dont take all the quests for a hub youre often left having to go back and forth anyway. Like I said I have 2 60s and 3 other characters between level 5 and 30, and ive been playing since may 2007. the story quests apart from the book stuff (which is mostly long, long fedexing journeys since Vol.1 book 9) are some of the only real storylines the game has;the rest of it is unconnected fedexing or more likely, another grind of some type. Do you honestly think people will even bother to read the story books now? Nope, theyll be racing to level 50 so they can start grinding their LIs and radience.

  • ethionethion Member UncommonPosts: 2,888
    Originally posted by Aganazer

    Originally posted by ozy1



    I mean i cant be bothered to lvl up with every new mmo that comes out. I want a new design, I just wnt to play right from the get go. Not think right I need to get to lvl 50 or whatever

     

    If leveling up is bothersome rather than enjoyable then you're not in the right genre. RPG's have ALWAYS been about character development and all forms of character development, whether they be equipment upgrades, skill upgrades, or level upgrades all do essentially the same thing.



    Both adventure gaming and shooter games have very little character development. Are you hoping to play a MMOG like that? If so, then there have already been a number of games in that genre.



    But to enjoy RPG's you probably shouldn't be so focused on level. Your charcter level is really just a guide to navigate you through the game's content. Its not the purpose or the destination.

    Well said.  And this is where I feel that Spellborn falls short.  I did not feel a lot of progression in the first 13 levels I played.  Far less then most games.

    In my opinion also good PvP games drive the game more towards FPS which makes the best PvP games.  Where good RPG drives the game more to PvE.  Games that try to do both in my opinion fail to do either well.

     

    ---
    Ethion

  • jusagamfrekjusagamfrek Member Posts: 56
    Originally posted by jimsmith08


     its not something you do now and again! The intros are seperate from the actual game world and take all of 20 minutes to do and can even be skipped. the human starter area, before you get to the burning of archet, has you killing 10 spiders, 8 boars, 6 wolves and a few small fedex quests. the same in Ered luin, except here its cave claws, wolves and goblins, the same goblin and wolf models youll be fighting in misty mountains at level 40.
    It is pretty much the only thing you do in that game -kill 10 of something for its nose or hide or whatever- and this goes on from level 1 up to level 60. people are even complaining about the grinds in MoM which have gotten way out of hand.
    The same bears, wolves, wargs, spiders and goblins are used throughout the game and it wasnt ntil forochel that we actually started to see some new mob types, and even then it was only panthers and the ice spirits.
    I dont know which areas you were playing in, but youre constantly treading the same ground. In fact, if you dont take all the quests for a hub youre often left having to go back and forth anyway. Like I said I have 2 60s and 3 other characters between level 5 and 30, and ive been playing since may 2007. the story quests apart from the book stuff (which is mostly long, long fedexing journeys since Vol.1 book 9) are some of the only real storylines the game has;the rest of it is unconnected fedexing or more likely, another grind of some type. Do you honestly think people will even bother to read the story books now? Nope, theyll be racing to level 50 so they can start grinding their LIs and radience.

    Good for you.  I have multiple 60s and 50s as well and have been in since late closed beta.  Again I was referring to only the first 15 levels which you seem to have skipped, or at least failed to read through, just as you failed to read my post fully apparently.  I'll make it brief so as not to break those 15 second attention spans.  It's one thing to do 10 similar kill quests before you leave a starter area (pretty much all mmos) and another to do them all back to back in the exact same area (Spellborn is not alone sadly).  LotRO's first 15 levels (think trial account) are an example of pulling the player in immediately and leave the player wanting more  (It obviously worked on you despite your complaints since you have multiple 60s).  Many other games have done it well and I could have used them as an example (EQ2, CoX, AoC).  While it's certainly not the worst starting area, by comparison to other relevant titles Spellborn falls well short at drawing players in at the beginning, and this is before anyone pays a dime for it.  

     

    Cripes!  I'm not even saying Spellborn is a bad game - it isn't - you're all reading too much into that.  A fair critique of the game is that its starter area is lackluster, and this presents a problem precisely because this is what people will use to determine whether or not to purchase an account.  Maybe when you think of low populations you think of tighter knit groups and players that are like minded.  I'm reminded of Tabula Rasa and Asheron's Call 2.

  • jimsmith08jimsmith08 Member Posts: 1,039
    Originally posted by jusagamfrek

    Originally posted by jimsmith08


     its not something you do now and again! The intros are seperate from the actual game world and take all of 20 minutes to do and can even be skipped. the human starter area, before you get to the burning of archet, has you killing 10 spiders, 8 boars, 6 wolves and a few small fedex quests. the same in Ered luin, except here its cave claws, wolves and goblins, the same goblin and wolf models youll be fighting in misty mountains at level 40.
    It is pretty much the only thing you do in that game -kill 10 of something for its nose or hide or whatever- and this goes on from level 1 up to level 60. people are even complaining about the grinds in MoM which have gotten way out of hand.
    The same bears, wolves, wargs, spiders and goblins are used throughout the game and it wasnt ntil forochel that we actually started to see some new mob types, and even then it was only panthers and the ice spirits.
    I dont know which areas you were playing in, but youre constantly treading the same ground. In fact, if you dont take all the quests for a hub youre often left having to go back and forth anyway. Like I said I have 2 60s and 3 other characters between level 5 and 30, and ive been playing since may 2007. the story quests apart from the book stuff (which is mostly long, long fedexing journeys since Vol.1 book 9) are some of the only real storylines the game has;the rest of it is unconnected fedexing or more likely, another grind of some type. Do you honestly think people will even bother to read the story books now? Nope, theyll be racing to level 50 so they can start grinding their LIs and radience.

    Good for you.  I have multiple 60s and 50s as well and have been in since late closed beta.  Again I was referring to only the first 15 levels which you seem to have skipped, or at least failed to read through, just as you failed to read my post fully apparently.  I'll make it brief so as not to break those 15 second attention spans.  It's one thing to do 10 similar kill quests before you leave a starter area (pretty much all mmos) and another to do them all back to back in the exact same area (Spellborn is not alone sadly).  LotRO's first 15 levels (think trial account) are an example of pulling the player in immediately and leave the player wanting more  (It obviously worked on you despite your complaints since you have multiple 60s).  Many other games have done it well and I could have used them as an example (EQ2, CoX, AoC).  While it's certainly not the worst starting area, by comparison to other relevant titles Spellborn falls well short at drawing players in at the beginning, and this is before anyone pays a dime for it.  

     

    Cripes!  I'm not even saying Spellborn is a bad game - it isn't - you're all reading too much into that.  A fair critique of the game is that its starter area is lackluster, and this presents a problem precisely because this is what people will use to determine whether or not to purchase an account.  Maybe when you think of low populations you think of tighter knit groups and players that are like minded.  I'm reminded of Tabula Rasa and Asheron's Call 2.



     

    again, youre blanking out the facts that lotro shares the exact kill 10 wolves and bears quests not only in the starter areas, but throughout the entire game. the first 15 levels are by far the worst part of the game for that very reason: once you finish killing the bears in archet youll be heading to bree fields to kill more. you then head to the next area to do the exact same thing. its not about what ground is covered, its about the repetition of quests, something lotro does to death.

    you seem to be attempting to convince me that lotro offers a wonderful, varied experience before level 15 which is about as far from the case as you can get unless you call mass wildlife genocide a wonderful pull for players. By that time yove only just gotten into book 2, so the whole storyline thing hasnt even come to you yet.  nice try, though :)

     

  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,577
    Originally posted by TheHistorian


    The starter area is a bit rough.. if you can make it level 10 or so, you will see a different game.



     

              I never even got close to 10 before I was utterly bored to tears.......YOu can only kill so many boars, wolves and bears with no loot before insanity sets in.........

  • DibdabsDibdabs Member RarePosts: 2,926
    Originally posted by Aganazer


    The later Hoggsridge quests start to get better. That will be at level 10+. By the mid teens the quests will start to become the strongest part of the game. The quests in TCoS end up being some of the best written quests in the genre. Its ironic that they start out so weak.

    Ironic, and probably the reason why people will be cancelling their subscription, as I've just done.  The final straw for me was in Hoggsridge when, doing yet another yawn-inducing Fed-Ex quest,  I got asked to - yet again - get more meat for an NPC.  Screw that for fresh, new, innovative entertainment.

  • AganazerAganazer Member Posts: 1,319
    Originally posted by Dibdabs


    Screw that for fresh, new, innovative entertainment.

    Such as? I am always willing to try new games, but the current crop of MMORPG's is not exactly fresh, new, or innovative. After beta testing most of the next gen gamesI can tell you that they aren't much better.

  • DibdabsDibdabs Member RarePosts: 2,926
    Originally posted by Aganazer

    Originally posted by Dibdabs


    Screw that for fresh, new, innovative entertainment.

    Such as? I am always willing to try new games, but the current crop of MMORPG's is not exactly fresh, new, or innovative. After beta testing most of the next gen gamesI can tell you that they aren't much better.

    My point exactly.  Spellborn is just the latest mutton dressed as lamb.

  • markyturnipmarkyturnip Member UncommonPosts: 837

     

     

    I posted a similar thread a while back.

     

    The quests do improve, although there are patches of kill boar quests all over.

     

    Some of the quests are actually quite fun. Most are nicely written.

  • DibdabsDibdabs Member RarePosts: 2,926
    Originally posted by markyturnip


    The quests do improve, although there are patches of kill boar quests all over.

    I got out at the right time then.  It looks like they just ran out of plots and decided to paste over the gaps with cookie-cutter boar/bear/wolf killing quests.

  • markyturnipmarkyturnip Member UncommonPosts: 837
    Originally posted by Dibdabs

    Originally posted by markyturnip


    The quests do improve, although there are patches of kill boar quests all over.

    I got out at the right time then.  It looks like they just ran out of plots and decided to paste over the gaps with cookie-cutter boar/bear/wolf killing quests.

     

     

    I totally understand your disdain for kill boars... on the oher hand, killing monsters is pretty much what people do in these games. The question is how well it is disguised in terms of motivation.

     

    The good thing about TCOS is that the combat is way more interesting than most other MMOs I have played,

  • DibdabsDibdabs Member RarePosts: 2,926

    Mmm, I wouldn't say way more interesting, but it's a step in the right direction, away from 'click target and autoattack' which is all too prevalent today. Credit where credit is due.

  • MinoziMinozi Member Posts: 49
    Originally posted by Dibdabs


    [...]. Credit where credit is due.

    Yet complaints where it isnt.

    (not your comment, just mmo reviews and comments in general, its all too easy to say something sucks yet appearently way harder to say something is actually good, without lying and having other purposes (such as recruiting for the game) than just giving your honest and mature opinion)

  • ethionethion Member UncommonPosts: 2,888
    Originally posted by Dibdabs

    Originally posted by markyturnip


    The quests do improve, although there are patches of kill boar quests all over.

    I got out at the right time then.  It looks like they just ran out of plots and decided to paste over the gaps with cookie-cutter boar/bear/wolf killing quests.

     

    I think this is the problem.  There are not just one or occasional kill boars quests but in the first area it seems like you have a bunch of kill boars, bears, wolves quests.  After you have done your 3rd quest in a row killing the same thing it gets rather old....

    ---
    Ethion

  • tamanendtamanend Member Posts: 11

    i'm really confused about why some of the people in this thread bother playing games at all.

    in the FPS genre, you kill things.  true, they're often things with guns, but the goal is to kill them.  in hordes.  endless hordes.   boars and wargs dont have guns, but they're completely identical from a game design perspective. 

    in solo RPGs, you kill things.  you do fedex quests.  you level up by solving other people's problems, doing fedex quests and killing things.  you do a puzzle or two. 

    that's how games are built.  that's how even the great games were built.  baldur's gate?  you killed lots of things and went from place to place solving other people's problems.  half life 1 or 2?  you entered a level with a weapon and had to get to the other end of that level - in your way were "boars" you had to kill and some physics puzzles.  but mostly it was "boars". 

    the biggest difference in design between MMOs and solo games is that in MMOs, the designers have to make enough room in the gameworld for 100,000s of heroes who each find their "story" believable enough to continue to pay to play the game, instead of just writing the tale of one hero who's money is already spent.  (now a tangent is that i believe the "everyone's a hero in our gameworld" design concept is a mistake, but i wont go into that now.)

    i just dont understand why all of a sudden MMOs are supposed to burn 30 years of game design just because some players seem confused about why they're playing a game to begin with, and what they expect from the experience as a whole.  you kill things, you run fedex, you level up and find or make new gear.  what were you expecting?? 

    honestly it seems like a lot of the people in this thread would be better suited to solo RPGs and a character or savegame editor. 

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