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Crafting 140 million weapons
jaspr180
Member Posts: 96
Update: on the crafting system.
Yes, but that's just the crafting. The entire process is of course different depending on what items or material groups we are talking about, but in general, it will work like this:
1. Gathering/farming/mining etc
You collect resources from nature, the quantity (and sometimes quality) depending on your skills and tools. For instance, you collect Wolf Teeth from dead wolves. Or Heamatite from sedimentary rocks.
2. Refining/combining etc
You (or someone else) then refines the raw materials collected during the first step. This requires skills, tools and often a workbench or a workshop. It often involves combining different raw materials and adding different substances. Usually, only the quantity of the refining is affected by skills and tools, but there are some cases where the quality of the refined material will differ. For instance, the teeth you collected may be used to produce Emalj (a hard teeth substance). Or you use the Haematite to produce Pig Iron. Both of these refined materials can be used in crafting, however Pig Iron is very brittle and is usually further refined (into for instance Steel of varying qualities).
3. Crafting
The crafting process itself is very different depending on what you want to craft, but in general you need two different skill-sets: One for the "type" and one for the "material". To make a Steel Sword Blade, something like both your Blacksmithing > Weaponsmithing > Bladesmithing skill and your Metallurgy > Metalworking > Steel would be involved. Here your skills, tools and supplementary ingredients all affect the quality (not the quantity) of the outcome. You will also need a handle for your sword blade. You can either make it yourself, for instance from the Emalj (if you have the skills, tools and resources) or let someone else do it for you. Finally, in the last process the pieces need to be assembled.
4. Repairing
When your sword is used, it will loose Durability. Loosing Durability doesn't simply mean it will break at one point, it means it will slowly get dull and loose balance. Or rather, the materials can actually be of different Durability Type ranging from the ones that will let your sword keep its edge until the very last point of Durability, to those that will become dull after only a few strikes although they won't actually break for long.
You can learn some simple skills connected to your Swordsmanship skill to keep your sword in good shape, meaning you can rather easily repair it. However, as long as it's not being repaired properly by a real crafter, it will loose some of its Max Durability each time. (And even a great crafter will steal a point or two).
5. Reverse Engineering and Recycling
If you give your sword to another player (or he takes it by force), he may take it back to his workshop and try to reverse engineer the design, or simply try to melt it down to take care of the resources. The chances of understanding the design (learning how to craft the type yourself), and the quantity of extracted material will be dependent on the same skills that were used in making the sword.
Not everything can be revealed by reverse engineering a crafted item though. You may learn what materials were used in making it, and you may learn how to make the type yourself - but some item parts will not only let you use 1 or 2 resources, they will also let you adjust the ratio between those. This, as a copy cat, you will have to experiment with yourself.
In the recent powerpoint presentation http://www.mortalonline.com/files/presentation/MortalOnlinePresentation.rar there was a crafting section.
Anyway, I think those of you who are crafters might see the potential behind this, and I bring it here because I think its nice to see so many custom crafted stats for weapons. If they have put anyhwere near the thought process the have into crafting procedure as they have its process, I think many of us will be in for a very nice treat.
Quote from PPP:
There are around 50 different "heads" you can learn to craft. Of those, about 20 are sword-type blades, each with its own base attributes.
When making a weapon head, you may choose from up to 40 materials such as iron, Copper, Bone ect, each in a corresponding skill group, like Iron-based Metals.
There are at least 30 different handle shapes to craft. They are mostly used in combination with weapon heads, although some may be used on their own as clubs or quarterstaffs.
A handle can be made out of two materials, one for the core and one for the grip or coat. As with the heads, there re 40 hard materials for the core. These 40 hard materials can also be used for the grip or coat, or you may choose from another 20 soft materials.. So, my dear Khurite. Can you guess the total number of possible weapon combinations? 142,662,744!
Here is a recent quote from the Mortal Online forums from a developer replying to people saying "yea but all those are for sure not useful."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nox Vortem View Post
Stop shatting your pants, this will boil down to something like this:
Bone Blade VS Diamond Blade -> Diamond wins
Wooden Handle VS Steel Handle -> Steel wins
Thus, best combo = Diamond Blade + Steel Handle.
No, it definitely won't. Are you serious?
MO Dev:
Do you actually think we're stupid enough to go through the pain of making a dynamic system like this just to be able to write a big number in our presentation?
The main attributes of a weapon are:
Speed
Range
Damage
Generally speaking, the better the weapon is in two of these attributes, the worse it is in the third. A weapon with good Range and Damage are not that good for Speed (like a Halberd). A weapon that has both high Speed and Range, doesn't give as much damage (like a Spear). And a weapon that has good Speed and Damage doesn't have very good Range (like an Arming Sword).
But almost as important factors are for instance (many of these are of course connected in some way or another, but still important as individual characteristics):
Durability
Durability Type
Availability/Price*
Crafting Difficulty (and Crafting Prerequisites)
Skill Prerequisites
Weight
Strength Requirement
Stamina Drain
Blunt Damage
Cutting Damage
Piercing Damage
Enchant Difficulty
Enchant Modifier
Armor Gusset Hit Modifier
Grip Quality
..and a few more
*Not a stat, rather a result of supply and demand
No single handle, head or material is "the best one", as that will vary depending on your personal fighting style and character skill setup. Also, one combination might be very good against a certain armor but perform bad against another.
To give you a quick example, your precious Diamond Blade, although you won't be able to craft a "diamond blade" in MO so I choose Nyx (like Onyx) instead, will be very sharp but also very light, resulting in much less Blunt Damage than even a "common" Steel Blade. The Durability Type of the Diamond/Nyx sword would mean it would be very resistant (hard) against a lot of other materials, but once it cracked, it would be totally useless due to its very low Durability. Furthermore, it would be rather easy to Enchant, but not as easy, or give the same bonuses, as the Bone Blade you mention (depending on what type of Bone you used).
Quote:
The total combination are 140 mil.
But how many of those are actually useful and worthy? I don't know but it's a lot less than that 140 mil.
MO Dev:
Yes, that is very true. The system is dynamic, meaning it allows you to create a training sword out of wood, as that is one of the resource materials. Or actually, from a number of different woods (as there are several Wood-resources that vary stat-wise for making Arrows, Handles, Bows etc.) This of course means that you can dismiss almost all weapon heads created out of wood-types as effective melee weapons, and yes, that will reduce the number. At the same time you can't dismiss all handles or grips created out of wood.
Our aim with the current crafting system is to make it as free as possible, and we have only set up regulations for stuff that would be very strange, or not believable, or simply look like crap due to the technical limitations - such as creating a spear out of Quality Silk. And we have not counted those resources, of course.
So you're right, what you see are "only" the number of possible combinations, not a selected few of what combinations are "good", "useful" or "kick-ass". But that's part of what makes it a Sandbox: We are proud of a system that let's you choose and that let's you explore it, and where your playing experience pays off - not a system that features "The Godslayer of Hitpoints" because it's so cool as it's a rare drop from some dragon and you can only use it from level 230 and it gives a million damage and is the bestest sword.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resin View Post
Two weapons of the same material can also vary in effectiveness based on the crafters skill - is this part of all the model combinations or in addition to?
MO Dev:
No, it's not part of the combinations. Additionally, the crafter's skill in the materials used as well as the handle- and head-types will influence the final item.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamisama View Post
Well, AFAIK, the weapon have many stats, like weight, reach, etc. So i would assume the devs make sure to balance the stats between the material. A steel handle might be more resistant than a bone handle, but the bone handle is far more light weighted, so I think there will be no such things as IMBA weapon, there will be advantages and drawbacks, and choosing the best weapon should not be "this one is better than that on" but rather "I prefer this one for X reason, even if that one is good for Y reason"
MO Dev:
Exactly.
Quote:
[...]This finally folks brings back the real economy to the game cause of considering value/quality/usability of ANY weapon in game and not the best ones only.
MO Dev:
I really agree. All swords (except maybe swords in some Balsa-type wood), will be at least somewhat useful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziegler View Post
Not saying it isnt an accomplishment, because it is in the MMO sphere. But when you look and suddenly realize that most of them will be the same model with a different color combination to denote the material chosen...it's not so awe inspiring as some would act like it is.
MO Dev:
Know of many other games that enables you to craft 140M+ weapons? (Sorry, weapons-with-different-attributes, if you insist.) I don't say you should be in awe, I just don't understand your negativism. If our crafting was the standard in MMO's, I could perhaps understand you getting dissapointed (or whatever it is you get) at people saying it's fantastic. But for now.. ..well, I just get constantly disappointed myself, as it feels like when we at last are able to present something we can be proud of, something we know for sure works, and that we thought you would be thrilled to hear - there's always someone that has to say "it really isn't that awe-inspiring".
Hope some of you find this as exciting as I have.
Comments
yeah this got me really excited I love swords and I finally have a game where everyone can choose the weapons they like instead of being forced to use this weapon model all because it has the most stats. I really cant wait for mortal..
The system sounds great. But the dev's should never get their panties tangled up like that over negative comments. On the web people are more blunt than when you speak with them in real life, as a rule of thumb. And there will always be acid spitters in every group of people. Besides, for every negative opinion on this subject, there are a hundred positive ones which you don't read. Just don't let it get to you personally and reply with jest.
I for one look forward to this crafting dream come true.
My brand new bloggity blog.
Yes, it SOUNDS great. Implementation will be key here, even a busted UI could kill the feature.
As a side note, i thought i read there was a bit of experimentation (ala SWG) involved in the crafting too. So feasibly, even a like item could be slightly different.
Also, am i understanding that there is not form of damage range (1-30), or DPS (4.5) on items? just good bad, average and so on?
That's kinda cool if so.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
This sounds really good, I missed something like this in every MMO I played.
hm this is probable gonna be a great game
Yes, it SOUNDS great. Implementation will be key here, even a busted UI could kill the feature.
As a side note, i thought i read there was a bit of experimentation (ala SWG) involved in the crafting too. So feasibly, even a like item could be slightly different.
Also, am i understanding that there is not form of damage range (1-30), or DPS (4.5) on items? just good bad, average and so on?
That's kinda cool if so.
Nah, if you read the powerpoint pres, you learn that knowledge of weapon stats is inherent to your experience with that type of weapon by using or making them. To me a sword might read "mediocre damage" while to you, as the experienced swordsman and part-time weaponsmith that you are, there is much more detailed info in the tooltip. (And not only materials matter, also the experience of the crafter influences the stats).
Like the experienced herbalist will know he is actually picking a "Desert Rose" rather than the generic "Red Flower" as it would be to me as a non-herbalist (cool thing is I can still pick it regardless of my knowledge or skill level, unlike many other games).
Edit: the cool part about that is that the game creates different specialists. If I happen to collect three spears but to me they all look the same, I will ask you, as my guild's weaponsmith, which one is the keeper and which ones I could sell and for how much, because you are presented with much more info on materials, damage types, speed, range, etc. This adds a whole new incentive to communicate/RP with other folks; apart from a buyer and a seller, you will often be a middle man.
And like you say, whether all this will work smoothly is still anyone's guess but I am very hopeful.
My brand new bloggity blog.
I really like the idea of actually having different levels of detail available to the player, depending on the skill-level. Let's just hope, that there isn't a day-0 hack that let's you read everything.
I never really looked into MO, but reading this has piqued my interest.
I really don't see what all the fuss is about. I think its great that everyone can have a weapon that doesn't look the same, but in reality all that matters is speed, damage, and reach. Everything else is pretty much just epeen.
Durability
Durability Type
Weight
Strength Requirement
Stamina Drain
Blunt Damage
Cutting Damage
Piercing Damage
Enchant Difficulty
Enchant Modifier
Armor Gusset Hit Modifier
Grip Quality
This is all epeen? The point isnt that you can make your sword blue or green. The point is that crafters have absolute control over items they make. No following pre-made recipe's!!! You tell a sword crafter your needs from a weapon, they give you a "custom" weapon designed for how you play and within your budget. How is this not awesome?!
Durability
Durability Type
Weight
Strength Requirement
Stamina Drain
Blunt Damage
Cutting Damage
Piercing Damage
Enchant Difficulty
Enchant Modifier
Armor Gusset Hit Modifier
Grip Quality
This is all epeen? The point isnt that you can make your sword blue or green. The point is that crafters have absolute control over items they make. No following pre-made recipe's!!! You tell a sword crafter your needs from a weapon, they give you a "custom" weapon designed for how you play and within your budget. How is this not awesome?!
And add to that;
- Information on item tooltips being different between people because of different levels of skill or knowledge on those kind of items
- Crafter experience influencing the quality of the item next to material qualities
All in all it seems like crafting and gathering will be huge in this game which also stimulates a thriving ingame economy. The system hasn't got anything to do with "epeen", but all the more with "friggin awesome", in my mind that is.
My brand new bloggity blog.
I shall be interesting to test the crafting in MO. It sounds fun, at least.
All this sounds good. That is why I am staying interested somewhat about this game. My main concern though is with how they plan on handling combat. Will it be like every other MMORPG or will the combat be more like what we see in a game like Mount and Blade? That is what concerns me.
Mount and Blade combat in my opinion, with the ability to actually block incoming strikes with a shield or to block arrows(OMG nothing beats M&B in this area and why I love the games combat system), is the kind of combat system I wish to see added to MMORPG game play. If you've never experienced M&B...go download it and play the free trial. I am telling you, nothing can compare to how that game handles melee and ranged combat - especially from horse back!
I love M&B, its a highly addictive singleplayer game. but actually the combat system is very rough compared to a very simular type of system in PVKII. idk who came up with direction blocking, but pvk at least implemented it before M&B. M&B is untouchable in the mounted combat department ofc.
And I think MO combat is sounding alot more complex than M&B which is pretty simple (block with shield.. attack.. block etc.).
My blog:
Yes, it SOUNDS great. Implementation will be key here, even a busted UI could kill the feature.
As a side note, i thought i read there was a bit of experimentation (ala SWG) involved in the crafting too. So feasibly, even a like item could be slightly different.
Also, am i understanding that there is not form of damage range (1-30), or DPS (4.5) on items? just good bad, average and so on?
That's kinda cool if so.
Nah, if you read the powerpoint pres, you learn that knowledge of weapon stats is inherent to your experience with that type of weapon by using or making them. To me a sword might read "mediocre damage" while to you, as the experienced swordsman and part-time weaponsmith that you are, there is much more detailed info in the tooltip. (And not only materials matter, also the experience of the crafter influences the stats).
No no, i got that point. but it still read as if all weapons only get a rating such as "low, med, high" instead of DPS and damage ranges.
I was looking froward to this, if it was indeed this way.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Yes, it SOUNDS great. Implementation will be key here, even a busted UI could kill the feature.
As a side note, i thought i read there was a bit of experimentation (ala SWG) involved in the crafting too. So feasibly, even a like item could be slightly different.
Also, am i understanding that there is not form of damage range (1-30), or DPS (4.5) on items? just good bad, average and so on?
That's kinda cool if so.
Nah, if you read the powerpoint pres, you learn that knowledge of weapon stats is inherent to your experience with that type of weapon by using or making them. To me a sword might read "mediocre damage" while to you, as the experienced swordsman and part-time weaponsmith that you are, there is much more detailed info in the tooltip. (And not only materials matter, also the experience of the crafter influences the stats).
No no, i got that point. but it still read as if all weapons only get a rating such as "low, med, high" instead of DPS and damage ranges.
I was looking froward to this, if it was indeed this way.
Ah, I see. Well, I'm afraid there will still be teh numbarz :<
My brand new bloggity blog.
Yes, it SOUNDS great. Implementation will be key here, even a busted UI could kill the feature.
As a side note, i thought i read there was a bit of experimentation (ala SWG) involved in the crafting too. So feasibly, even a like item could be slightly different.
Also, am i understanding that there is not form of damage range (1-30), or DPS (4.5) on items? just good bad, average and so on?
That's kinda cool if so.
Nah, if you read the powerpoint pres, you learn that knowledge of weapon stats is inherent to your experience with that type of weapon by using or making them. To me a sword might read "mediocre damage" while to you, as the experienced swordsman and part-time weaponsmith that you are, there is much more detailed info in the tooltip. (And not only materials matter, also the experience of the crafter influences the stats).
No no, i got that point. but it still read as if all weapons only get a rating such as "low, med, high" instead of DPS and damage ranges.
I was looking froward to this, if it was indeed this way.
Ah, I see. Well, I'm afraid there will still be teh numbarz :<
LMAE. here i was thinking someone was taking the whitewolf design cue. Now we are back to mini-maxers.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Yes, it SOUNDS great. Implementation will be key here, even a busted UI could kill the feature.
As a side note, i thought i read there was a bit of experimentation (ala SWG) involved in the crafting too. So feasibly, even a like item could be slightly different.
Also, am i understanding that there is not form of damage range (1-30), or DPS (4.5) on items? just good bad, average and so on?
That's kinda cool if so.
Nah, if you read the powerpoint pres, you learn that knowledge of weapon stats is inherent to your experience with that type of weapon by using or making them. To me a sword might read "mediocre damage" while to you, as the experienced swordsman and part-time weaponsmith that you are, there is much more detailed info in the tooltip. (And not only materials matter, also the experience of the crafter influences the stats).
No no, i got that point. but it still read as if all weapons only get a rating such as "low, med, high" instead of DPS and damage ranges.
I was looking froward to this, if it was indeed this way.
Ah, I see. Well, I'm afraid there will still be teh numbarz :<
LMAE. here i was thinking someone was taking the whitewolf design cue. Now we are back to mini-maxers.
Nevermind I said that. I was wrong: i68.photobucket.com/albums/i4/Yngling/MO_pres_02.jpg
Scroll down to the last slide and read the last paragraph. Seems your hopes weren't unfounded and I can't say I've got a problem with that. No min maxing afterall :>
My brand new bloggity blog.
The games basic design " skill matters " means that all those categories will not matter in 90% of what players do, and that damage, speed, and reach are the only stats of importantance.
I disagree. When you're already in combat the stats you mention are probably the most important ones. However, depending on how you like to fight you may choose entirely different kinds of weapons. You enjoy clubbing people to death, select a heavy weapon with loads of blunt damage - might come in especially handy, when you go down that skeleton infested crypt. If you prefer a more nimble style, darting back and forth, delivering thrusts and jabs, you might want a rapier type weapon. I can see that more useful when fighting quicker mobs.
Also, enchantment modifiers are important when designing and imbuing weapons. If you want to play some sort of Battlemage, you may place more importance on the weapons ability to channel magic than on actual melee damage.
And so forth.
I'm not stating that players aren't going to pick out the weapon that best fits their style, but that anything outside speed, reach, and damage for the weapon they pick doesn't really have an important role. Everyone wants the best they can afford, but it doesn't matter if you use the worse 2h sword or the best 2h sword. MO devs state that if you are a better player, then you will win. That is the basic reason why I state that anything outside of speed, reach, and damage your opponents could care less.
It sounds like alot when you put it on a forum, but I crafted 140 million weapons before breakfast.... so....
Many of the differences may only be significant to the crafter as they deal with availability and ease of crafting. Just speculation until we can see. The thing that amuses me is that the only one able to tell how good the sword is, is the guy who is selling it.
I guess I must be in that 10% who thinks outside of your box.
If your talking about stamina drain. I guess 90% of players dont care what kind of stamina drain they have on their weapon though because they are mostly just looking at short term burst dps.
90% of players do not look at enchanting their weapons either as thats also just a niche thing for RP'ers.
90% of players don't concern themselves if a weapon is just to heavy and they dont meet the stregnth requirement. They will use it anyway because it has the best speed/reach/damage attributes.
90% of players dont care WHAT type of damage they are doing as long as its the most possible.
90% of players dont care if their weapon remains sharp for 20 minutes or 4 days because they expect to die and be looted every 15 minutes.
If 90% of players are how you say they are, then I expect my 10% is going to have a slight PVP edge in this game.
Wow. The crafting system seems very indepth, which is just awsome. I hadnt read what the crafting was going to be like before this and i am happy to say that im impressed. Im glad to hear that all weapons will have drawbacks and the amount of custimization available. Im especially happy to hear that the materials you use and the crafters skill will go into making the weapon more "efficient." This is fantastic, it makes room for all those who love to craft by giving them an indepth system where they can hone there skills to perfection and strive to make that perfectly balanced weapon. Reminds me of SWG, how certain crafters will be known on the server and sought out for their skill, sounds excellent to me.
Tried: EvE, DnD Online, LotRO, WAR, AoC,
Played: UO, SWG(pre-cu), GuildWars, FFXI, WoW
Liked: UO, SWG, GuildWars
Disliked: WoW, FFXI
Great! this game is looking better and better.