"The most recent info on Warhammer Online puts the game's dedicated player base at 300,000." For clarity's sake, That is a statement by a website reporter and not a direct quote from the conference call. hmm, what does "dedicated player base" even mean. Do they have a description of what that includes or did I miss something? Why does the tiltle of this thread use "subs" in it when we don't even know if this includes trials and so on. The info relayed from the phone conference was "dedicated player base." Eric Brown's actual statement was "Warhammer ended the year with over 300,000 subscribers." The title uses subs because the Gamespot article uses subs because that is what is listed in the report from EA. The Gamespot reporter seems to be a fan of the game and added a few words of his own.
Mind you, it was predicted before hand that EA would use something like that rather than saying "subscriptions" so doesn;t surprise me. Considering they've released WAR in 2 new territories and are still at 300k, they are still bleeding subs in the Western markets. But EA's CFO did say subscribers.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
EA is notorious for putting MMO's in the graveyard. First MMO they executed was Earth and Beyond and then Auto Assault. The only thing that will keep WAR alive is Mythic Entertainment as they are probably one of the most dedicated MMO gaming companies left around.
The first was Legends of Kesmai then Motor City Online then EnB. Auto Assault was an NCSoft title. EA did have a variety of UO sequals it smushed along the way, along with the early development of Privateer Online.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Originally posted by Rhoklaw EA is notorious for putting MMO's in the graveyard. First MMO they executed was Earth and Beyond and then Auto Assault. The only thing that will keep WAR alive is Mythic Entertainment as they are probably one of the most dedicated MMO gaming companies left around.
I know one thing. EA cannot be blamed for putting these games into the ground. It looks like to me Mythic has their own dismal record of putting MMOs into the ground. (Check all the ONLINE titles). And btw, some of those titles were HOT property IPs when they were made, so that can't be blamed either.
Dragon's Gate (1985) Tempest (1991) Castles II Online (1996) Rolemaster: Magestorm (1996) Splatterball (1996) Invasion Earth (1997) Darkness Falls (1997) Rolemaster: Bladelands (1997) Aliens Online (1998) Starship Troopers: Battlespace (1998) Godzilla Online (1998) Silent Death: Online (1999) Darkness Falls: The Crusade (1999) Darkstorm: The Well of Souls (1999) Spellbinder: The Nexus Conflict (1999) Independence Day Online (2000) Dark Age of Camelot (2001) Imperator Online (Canceled 2005) Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning (2008)
That was all Mythic, no EA involvement.
You see ONE winner on that list. EA had nothing to do with those or WAR doing badly. Please stop trying to excuse Mythic and let them off the hook. If they deserve credit for DAOC, which they DO, then they deserve blame for WAR which they also do. There is only one game that is of note they have made, and that one was made eight years ago.
"The most recent info on Warhammer Online puts the game's dedicated player base at 300,000." For clarity's sake, That is a statement by a website reporter and not a direct quote from the conference call. hmm, what does "dedicated player base" even mean. Do they have a description of what that includes or did I miss something? Why does the tiltle of this thread use "subs" in it when we don't even know if this includes trials and so on. The info relayed from the phone conference was "dedicated player base." Eric Brown's actual statement was "Warhammer ended the year with over 300,000 subscribers." The title uses subs because the Gamespot article uses subs because that is what is listed in the report from EA. The Gamespot reporter seems to be a fan of the game and added a few words of his own.
Mind you, it was predicted before hand that EA would use something like that rather than saying "subscriptions" so doesn;t surprise me. Considering they've released WAR in 2 new territories and are still at 300k, they are still bleeding subs in the Western markets. But EA's CFO did say subscribers.
This is only partly correct. While we cannot be positive that WAR currently has 300k active subscriptions, we do know that their quarterly financial reports say that they had 300k last year, as you indicated.
As far as the title of the tread goes, I think it's accurate. The most recent, OFFICIAL WAR subscription numbers were at 300k. Sure, they may have increased or decreased over the very few months since this was an exact number, I still believe it is accurate enough for our discussions. The end result is that Warhammer is definitely still alive and kicking, and I believe patch 1.3 will only add to these numbers.
Edit: This is more of a reply to Raztor, but wanted to include the information LynxJSA provided.
Maybe WAR should be classed as a winner too, it sold far more boxes than DAoC and has a higher sub count than DAoC peaked at. So while WAR has worse gameplay than DAoC it has surpassed it in terms of numbers adn that can't be bad for Mythic or EA. Also EA have closed MMO's down but they have also kept UO on a drip for so many years and it must have next to nothing of a population and certainly can't be making a sizable profit.
In that case you must also measure what WAR and DaoC cost to make. In a expensive game you need more subs to keep the game running, more subs doesnt always means more profit.
Maybe WAR should be classed as a winner too, it sold far more boxes than DAoC and has a higher sub count than DAoC peaked at. So while WAR has worse gameplay than DAoC it has surpassed it in terms of numbers adn that can't be bad for Mythic or EA. Also EA have closed MMO's down but they have also kept UO on a drip for so many years and it must have next to nothing of a population and certainly can't be making a sizable profit.
While what your saying is true to a certain degree what you didn't take into account is the fact the mmorpg market is alot bigger now than 10 years ago and as the poster before me mentioned WAR had a budget which was close to 50 times what DAOC had.
Maybe WAR should be classed as a winner too, it sold far more boxes than DAoC and has a higher sub count than DAoC peaked at. So while WAR has worse gameplay than DAoC it has surpassed it in terms of numbers adn that can't be bad for Mythic or EA. Also EA have closed MMO's down but they have also kept UO on a drip for so many years and it must have next to nothing of a population and certainly can't be making a sizable profit.
While what your saying is true to a certain degree what you didn't take into account is the fact the mmorpg market is alot bigger now than 10 years ago and as the poster before me mentioned WAR had a budget which was close to 50 times what DAOC had.
Maybe WAR should be classed as a winner too, it sold far more boxes than DAoC and has a higher sub count than DAoC peaked at. So while WAR has worse gameplay than DAoC it has surpassed it in terms of numbers adn that can't be bad for Mythic or EA. Also EA have closed MMO's down but they have also kept UO on a drip for so many years and it must have next to nothing of a population and certainly can't be making a sizable profit.
While what your saying is true to a certain degree what you didn't take into account is the fact the mmorpg market is alot bigger now than 10 years ago and as the poster before me mentioned WAR had a budget which was close to 50 times what DAOC had.
Im curious, what was WAR and DAOC's budget?
DOAC's budget was 2.6 million WAR's was just under 100 million.
Originally posted by mcharj11 Yeah there is a massive difference in budget but i think a huge chunk of the $100 million was probabaly spent on advertisment because if it has been spent on development they could have kept in dev for another year and released a better game. I mean looking at the game it doesn't appear that a lot money or time was spent on animations or stability.
The type of early advertising WAR had before release did NOT cost a good chunk of almost 100 million, lol. When you look at all of their pre-beta, beta and early release PR, how many commercials do you remember on television? Not one.
Most of their advertising was viral crap and cheaply made podcasts, magazine spreads here and there and site advertising like this one. I doubt MMORPG.com got tons of cash to plaster the WAR ads all over. For as much as they spent overall on the game, they underspent on advertising. Plenty of people playing WoW had never even heard of a Warhammer. The only time a lot ever did was just a few months ago, when Mythic finally bought out ALL the WoW third party sites with homepage skin ads. And that's a bad strategy when WAR obviously was targeting the WoW crowd from the beginning.
I have no idea how you want and expect a certain audience, and then fail to market directly to them until half a year later. Plain stupidity.
Conversely, I was just watching the NBA playoffs the other night, and World of Warcraft was a sponsor of the third quarter.
Originally posted by mcharj11 Erm popinjay i'm pretty sure that WAR's budget wasn't anywhere near $100 million until after EA bought them, and EA did spend a lot on advertisement. I mean look at the game if they spent near $100 million on development then every memeber of Mythics staff should hang thier heads in shame as games with half that budget have been of better quality.
Then let the shame at Mythic begin.
There is no way that anyone at Mythic will ever say they spent the lion's share of their budget on advertising as you claim they have. Even if the total budget for WAR was 75 million, I don't know why you'd think they spent anything near even 20 million in advertising. I don't think when they got the money from EA would matter much, if as you say:
Originally posted by mcharj11 Yeah there is a massive difference in budget but i think a huge chunk of the $100 million was probabaly spent on advertisment..
Again, based on the viral marketing and podcasts with internet advertising, there is no way they spent even 10 million on PR for this game. 10 million out of just under 100 million isn't even that much.
I find it hard pressed for anyone following this game since beta to think they spent more than 10 million in advertising. It doesn't even look like they spent 5 million to me. They sold (to stores and others) 1.75 million boxes but out of that, only 700k had actually activated the accounts.
That works out to 700K subs at $15/mo= $10,500,000.00 that second month. If you claim they spent a "huge chunk of $100 million on advertising", that would be one of the worst returns in gaming history. Again, I doubt they even spent 5 million on advertising.
Seems to be the rule nowdays to release a MMO before it's ready for release. I cannot figure out the reasons myself, sure, you get a lot of paying "beta testers". But you also ensure that you will leave a poor taste in the consumers mouth with your half completed product. And that taste is hard to remove, and we see many games now that will never reach any high numbers due to releasing a beta product and scaring off the customers or just making them angry to pay to beta test their game and thereby not continuing to subscribe.
You are correct that to many companies release games long before they are ready.
In the case of Mythic, they had a huge budget and a very small time frame. Keep in mind that the game was already pushed back twice so it was originally scheduled to release close to a year earlier. The time frame put on the creation of this game was completely unrealistic. I just don't think a company can throw huge amounts of resources at a game and expect to cut the time table in half. Testing and refinment take tame and cannot be rushed.
I have often wondered if warhammer was just built on top of whatever mythic had done completed for their own mmo imperator. Which would be worse, because it just doesn't work to make such drastic design changes mid project like that, even if you do get awarded a major IP. See TR, SWG for more proof of that concept.
What really upsets me about the game is that mythic thought they hit a home run at release. All the high fiving they did and predictions make them look like they expected to dominate the market after release. It just tells me they really don't understand gamers right now. Outside of responding to player feedback (which they are pretty good about), I don't expect much in the way of new interesting ideas from them.
Erm popinjay i'm pretty sure that WAR's budget wasn't anywhere near $100 million until after EA bought them, and EA did spend a lot on advertisement. I mean look at the game if they spent near $100 million on development then every memeber of Mythics staff should hang thier heads in shame as games with half that budget have been of better quality.
The 100 million was just the development costs and didn't include advertising which isn't classed as been part of development costs in any game.
Erm popinjay i'm pretty sure that WAR's budget wasn't anywhere near $100 million until after EA bought them, and EA did spend a lot on advertisement. I mean look at the game if they spent near $100 million on development then every memeber of Mythics staff should hang thier heads in shame as games with half that budget have been of better quality.
The 100 million was just the development costs and didn't include advertising which isn't classed as been part of development costs in any game.
That's not even vaguely true. From what I have read (from info gathered by professional reporters) the budget for WAR was around the $50-$60 million mark. When EA purchased Mythic, they spent LOADS on advertising but very little was spent on extended development. If Mythic had spent $100 million on WAR, the game would have been shut down by now as EA are trying to cut their costs, not extend them.
WAR is sitting at just over 300,000 subs right now. AoC is sitting at just under 300,000 subs right now. Eve Online is sitting at just over 300,000 subs right now. LotRO is suspected to be sitting at somewhere between 300,000-400,000 subs right now. Are you starting to see the running trend here? The only sub-based P2P game that breaks established convention in the west is World of Warcraft at 5,000,000 (excluding Asia).
Developers and investors have been getting to excited about the MMO genre because of WoW. What has happened is the exact opposite to what they wanted to happen. World of Warcraft offers nerfed, accesible, easy and often bland content that people can swallow up but when you look at Eve, WAR, AoC and LotRO they offer more specialised game styles that aren't as accesible as WoW. Sadly, the only way to draw on a large subscriber base is to make a dilluted game like World of Warcraft that demands little skill and is not a personal affair because it is that style of gaming that appeals to the mass market.
WAR is a success. It may not be the success that Mythic wanted it to be but it is still making a fair amount of money. AoC, Eve and LotRO are also successes. They ay have messed up when they released but they have come into their own and continue to grow (Eve has grown massively over the last 6 months and continues to do so). To say that an MMO ust break 1 million subscribers, or even 500,000 subscribers to be a grand success is a fair point but to say that any MMO that does not to that is a failure is a piss poor point.
Developers and investors have been getting to excited about the MMO genre because of WoW. What has happened is the exact opposite to what they wanted to happen. World of Warcraft offers nerfed, accesible, easy and often bland content that people can swallow up but when you look at Eve, WAR, AoC and LotRO they offer more specialised game styles that aren't as accesible as WoW. Sadly, the only way to draw on a large subscriber base is to make a dilluted game like World of Warcraft that demands little skill and is not a personal affair because it is that style of gaming that appeals to the mass market. WAR is a success. It may not be the success that Mythic wanted it to be but it is still making a fair amount of money. AoC, Eve and LotRO are also successes. They ay have messed up when they released but they have come into their own and continue to grow (Eve has grown massively over the last 6 months and continues to do so). To say that an MMO ust break 1 million subscribers, or even 500,000 subscribers to be a grand success is a fair point but to say that any MMO that does not to that is a failure is a piss poor point.
I beg to defer my man.
WoW gameplay is not dilluted, in fact it offers much more than those games that you have mention, that's why its such a success.
Example, class ( forget about balance for now). Compare the Hunter class in WoW with the White Lion in War. For hunter you can tame different pets to be your companion, white lion, you cant. You have CC spells in hunter, white lion, nil... etc etc...
This is just an example of the difference between WoW and the rest of the game. If only the developers for AoC, War, LOTR etc, just put in more ideas and effort in their game design, and not just a 1 sided linear gameplay, than they will enjoy more success. They fail not because their game is specialised, they are just plain boring...
Of course not to talk about releasing too soon before the game is even complete ( except LOTR)...
Originally posted by Infalible That's not even vaguely true. From what I have read (from info gathered by professional reporters) the budget for WAR was around the $50-$60 million mark. When EA purchased Mythic, they spent LOADS on advertising but very little was spent on extended development. If Mythic had spent $100 million on WAR, the game would have been shut down by now as EA are trying to cut their costs, not extend them. WAR is sitting at just over 300,000 subs right now. AoC is sitting at just under 300,000 subs right now. Eve Online is sitting at just over 300,000 subs right now. LotRO is suspected to be sitting at somewhere between 300,000-400,000 subs right now. Are you starting to see the running trend here? The only sub-based P2P game that breaks established convention in the west is World of Warcraft at 5,000,000 (excluding Asia). Developers and investors have been getting to excited about the MMO genre because of WoW. What has happened is the exact opposite to what they wanted to happen. World of Warcraft offers nerfed, accesible, easy and often bland content that people can swallow up but when you look at Eve, WAR, AoC and LotRO they offer more specialised game styles that aren't as accesible as WoW. Sadly, the only way to draw on a large subscriber base is to make a dilluted game like World of Warcraft that demands little skill and is not a personal affair because it is that style of gaming that appeals to the mass market. WAR is a success. It may not be the success that Mythic wanted it to be but it is still making a fair amount of money. AoC, Eve and LotRO are also successes. They ay have messed up when they released but they have come into their own and continue to grow (Eve has grown massively over the last 6 months and continues to do so). To say that an MMO ust break 1 million subscribers, or even 500,000 subscribers to be a grand success is a fair point but to say that any MMO that does not to that is a failure is a piss poor point.
It is very possible for EA to have spent close to $100 million dollars developing the game and not shut it down. If their costs are lower than their revenue what would be the point of shutting it down? That wouldn't somehow recover more of their investment and it would just be throwing out positive cash flow.
AoC is estimated to be around 100k users. Not that it really matters much, but the single mark of success isn't getting 1 million+ for any mmo that releases. However, if a game does sell 1 million+ copies it should be able to retain a decent percentage of those players. Losing 70-90% of the people who try your game is not good. It doesn't matter how you want to craft the numbers or spin words, something is very wrong with those games to do something like that.
You are incorrect that games need to be dumbed down to reach the masses. What they need to be is finished and well designed. That is what warcraft delivered. Refined gameplay that is entertaining. That is exactly what warhammer and conan have not delivered. They are both in a reactive mode where they are trying to fix the problems in their gameplay. Either lacking content, poorly thought out design choices, incomplete mechanics, performance or any other number of issues each game is suffereing.
I guess you have to ask yourself why those games were not able to hold onto the momentum they had. Why did people not stay? It certainly wasn't that the games are to complex to understand. Most of the mechanics are the same and easily understood.
For a more niche market game [Eve] to outperform AAA mainstream games with large intelectual properties backing them I have to go with the thinking that something is wrong with the big games. Since the market is so much bigger than it was a few years ago even a flop can muster hundereds of thousands of players on IP alone.
Erm popinjay i'm pretty sure that WAR's budget wasn't anywhere near $100 million until after EA bought them, and EA did spend a lot on advertisement. I mean look at the game if they spent near $100 million on development then every memeber of Mythics staff should hang thier heads in shame as games with half that budget have been of better quality.
The 100 million was just the development costs and didn't include advertising which isn't classed as been part of development costs in any game.
That's not even vaguely true. From what I have read (from info gathered by professional reporters) the budget for WAR was around the $50-$60 million mark. When EA purchased Mythic, they spent LOADS on advertising but very little was spent on extended development. If Mythic had spent $100 million on WAR, the game would have been shut down by now as EA are trying to cut their costs, not extend them.
WAR is sitting at just over 300,000 subs right now. AoC is sitting at just under 300,000 subs right now. Eve Online is sitting at just over 300,000 subs right now. LotRO is suspected to be sitting at somewhere between 300,000-400,000 subs right now. Are you starting to see the running trend here? The only sub-based P2P game that breaks established convention in the west is World of Warcraft at 5,000,000 (excluding Asia).
Developers and investors have been getting to excited about the MMO genre because of WoW. What has happened is the exact opposite to what they wanted to happen. World of Warcraft offers nerfed, accesible, easy and often bland content that people can swallow up but when you look at Eve, WAR, AoC and LotRO they offer more specialised game styles that aren't as accesible as WoW. Sadly, the only way to draw on a large subscriber base is to make a dilluted game like World of Warcraft that demands little skill and is not a personal affair because it is that style of gaming that appeals to the mass market.
WAR is a success. It may not be the success that Mythic wanted it to be but it is still making a fair amount of money. AoC, Eve and LotRO are also successes. They ay have messed up when they released but they have come into their own and continue to grow (Eve has grown massively over the last 6 months and continues to do so). To say that an MMO ust break 1 million subscribers, or even 500,000 subscribers to be a grand success is a fair point but to say that any MMO that does not to that is a failure is a piss poor point.
Thats where your wrong they didn't even do any but the bare minimum advertising until recently, it was only in the last 2-3 months where there has been any noticeable advertising so I don't know how you could think they spent 20-30 milion on advertising from.
The developer only see's about 15-20% of the retail box price so they would have only seen about 7 million from the initial box sales.
At a recent conference on gaming at MIT, it was stated that the developer gets about $20 on a $50 box sale, which puts that percentage at about 40%.
40% is a little overboard the normal percentages seen by game developers range from 10-30% depending on the risks and how well known a title is, some of the better known game's like halo which are almost certain to shift large numbers will have the power to demand a higher share but those game will be few and far between.
WAR is a success. It may not be the success that Mythic wanted it to be but it is still making a fair amount of money. AoC, Eve and LotRO are also successes. They ay have messed up when they released but they have come into their own and continue to grow (Eve has grown massively over the last 6 months and continues to do so). To say that an MMO ust break 1 million subscribers, or even 500,000 subscribers to be a grand success is a fair point but to say that any MMO that does not to that is a failure is a piss poor point.
To you? Yes. But it's dishonest to say it's a success, but not what Mythic wanted it to be. They set certain goals and parameters about what success is. You as a customer/fan cannot redefine them and have them applied as if Mythic and EA would be happy with your take. I know you aren't saying fact, but its clear based on what was laid out as a successful model, your opinion is flat wrong. To say "Hey Mythic, you have 300k subs, grats!" when Mythic was looking for 500K is not successful. Actually, that would be woeful. They don't break a game down purely in terms of being #2; there's cost analysis as the overriding factor.
To CEO of Mythic Entertainment, Mark Jacobs and creator of Warhammer Online? It isn't.
Mark Jacobs, 8/29/08:
With EA and the resources backing Warhammer Online, I asked Jacobs how one would measure a successful MMO in the age of WoW with its 11 million worldwide subscribers. I would say we dont have to get anywhere near that number to be considered successful, he said. Would I like us to be number one? Well, of course. Do we have to be number one to be successful? No. I want us to be no less than number two; that would make me very happy. For the number two spot, Jacobs reasoned that Warhammer would need at least a half-million subscribers, which he guessed was close to what Final Fantasy and EverQuest 2 have now. Lets just say north of half a million would mean were successful. Now how a far north? I wouldnt mind being a little bit cold.
I think you should clarify the difference probably of who you mean. Now unless Mark Jacobs has come out in the past nine months and restated what his personal definition of success is regarding WAR, I think we'll just have to let this one stand. What is a good return for the other games you mentioned as far as 300K subs, yes they probably are happy with that because their games cost a lot less. But WAR spent more than those, especially EVE, so their returns are far different. EVE is operating right now on pure profit, whereas WAR is still trying to recoup startup costs. So what's successful for EVE isn't successful for WAR. Heck, EVE has been out since May 2003.
Eve Online is #2, not WAR. Mark Jacobs did not say 500k would be a "grand success" as you put it. He said 500k would have only been a "success". Logic dictates if the person who made the thing doesn't think it's successful by its OWN definition, I don't think a fan can just claim it is.
Originally posted by Ogrelin 15$ * 300.000 = 4.500.000$
4,5M$ * 9 Months? = 40M
700.000 boxes * 50$?= 35M
+ the boxes they have sold since the 700.000 numbers were released.
Not that bad imho.
even if they haven't got all their investments back yet...I think it's safe to say they will eventually.
The way business works is you buy something cheap and sell it high.
WAR sold those 700K boxes bulk to Walmart, Best Buy, Circuit City, Gamestop etc in bulk. Meaning that those places bought probably 50k boxes here, 25k boxes there, another 100k boxes to this guy. In order to buy that many boxes, they don't buy them for $50 from Mythic and then turn around and sell them to you for... $50 as well. They'd make no money at all. A store like Walmart is pure profit. If they sell it to you for $50, you can bet they didn't pay over $25 a box or they wouldn't even stock it. They'd make a deal with someone else or would'nt sell it.
Figure they sold 700K boxes for max $20 a box profit. Now recalculate your totals and see if that's still good. Then figure that the boxes they have sold since then have all been DEEPLY discounted for as little as $10 a box. Still looking good?
The only thing that matters is subs, and they have probably dipped back under 300k. They were 300k four months ago, and now they are still at 300k AFTER opening in a whole new world market. That's not good news. All that shows is as many new people that joined WAR, that many old people just quit. Non growth.
It's safe to say ANY game running several years will make their investment back, no matter how crappy it is. I'm sure Asheron's Call made all it's money back. Why? Because it's still running. Same with Matrix Online and other crappy MMOs. WAR will be no different as long as it doesn't shut down, which it won't. WAR can survive perfectly well with 3-4 servers NA side, which is what they will eventually fall to.
Comments
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
QFT
"TO MICHAEL!"
The first was Legends of Kesmai then Motor City Online then EnB. Auto Assault was an NCSoft title. EA did have a variety of UO sequals it smushed along the way, along with the early development of Privateer Online.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I know one thing. EA cannot be blamed for putting these games into the ground. It looks like to me Mythic has their own dismal record of putting MMOs into the ground. (Check all the ONLINE titles). And btw, some of those titles were HOT property IPs when they were made, so that can't be blamed either.
Dragon's Gate (1985)
Tempest (1991)
Castles II Online (1996)
Rolemaster: Magestorm (1996)
Splatterball (1996)
Invasion Earth (1997)
Darkness Falls (1997)
Rolemaster: Bladelands (1997)
Aliens Online (1998)
Starship Troopers: Battlespace (1998)
Godzilla Online (1998)
Silent Death: Online (1999)
Darkness Falls: The Crusade (1999)
Darkstorm: The Well of Souls (1999)
Spellbinder: The Nexus Conflict (1999)
Independence Day Online (2000)
Dark Age of Camelot (2001)
Imperator Online (Canceled 2005)
Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning (2008)
That was all Mythic, no EA involvement.
You see ONE winner on that list. EA had nothing to do with those or WAR doing badly. Please stop trying to excuse Mythic and let them off the hook. If they deserve credit for DAOC, which they DO, then they deserve blame for WAR which they also do. There is only one game that is of note they have made, and that one was made eight years ago.
"TO MICHAEL!"
This is only partly correct. While we cannot be positive that WAR currently has 300k active subscriptions, we do know that their quarterly financial reports say that they had 300k last year, as you indicated.
As far as the title of the tread goes, I think it's accurate. The most recent, OFFICIAL WAR subscription numbers were at 300k. Sure, they may have increased or decreased over the very few months since this was an exact number, I still believe it is accurate enough for our discussions. The end result is that Warhammer is definitely still alive and kicking, and I believe patch 1.3 will only add to these numbers.
Edit: This is more of a reply to Raztor, but wanted to include the information LynxJSA provided.
In that case you must also measure what WAR and DaoC cost to make. In a expensive game you need more subs to keep the game running, more subs doesnt always means more profit.
While what your saying is true to a certain degree what you didn't take into account is the fact the mmorpg market is alot bigger now than 10 years ago and as the poster before me mentioned WAR had a budget which was close to 50 times what DAOC had.
While what your saying is true to a certain degree what you didn't take into account is the fact the mmorpg market is alot bigger now than 10 years ago and as the poster before me mentioned WAR had a budget which was close to 50 times what DAOC had.
Im curious, what was WAR and DAOC's budget?
They've been working on WAR since 2005, their freakin budget must have been HUGE!!! Besides they were getting funding from EA, I know that for sure.
While what your saying is true to a certain degree what you didn't take into account is the fact the mmorpg market is alot bigger now than 10 years ago and as the poster before me mentioned WAR had a budget which was close to 50 times what DAOC had.
Im curious, what was WAR and DAOC's budget?
DOAC's budget was 2.6 million WAR's was just under 100 million.
The type of early advertising WAR had before release did NOT cost a good chunk of almost 100 million, lol. When you look at all of their pre-beta, beta and early release PR, how many commercials do you remember on television? Not one.
Most of their advertising was viral crap and cheaply made podcasts, magazine spreads here and there and site advertising like this one. I doubt MMORPG.com got tons of cash to plaster the WAR ads all over. For as much as they spent overall on the game, they underspent on advertising. Plenty of people playing WoW had never even heard of a Warhammer. The only time a lot ever did was just a few months ago, when Mythic finally bought out ALL the WoW third party sites with homepage skin ads. And that's a bad strategy when WAR obviously was targeting the WoW crowd from the beginning.
I have no idea how you want and expect a certain audience, and then fail to market directly to them until half a year later. Plain stupidity.
Conversely, I was just watching the NBA playoffs the other night, and World of Warcraft was a sponsor of the third quarter.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Then let the shame at Mythic begin.
There is no way that anyone at Mythic will ever say they spent the lion's share of their budget on advertising as you claim they have. Even if the total budget for WAR was 75 million, I don't know why you'd think they spent anything near even 20 million in advertising. I don't think when they got the money from EA would matter much, if as you say:
Again, based on the viral marketing and podcasts with internet advertising, there is no way they spent even 10 million on PR for this game. 10 million out of just under 100 million isn't even that much.
I find it hard pressed for anyone following this game since beta to think they spent more than 10 million in advertising. It doesn't even look like they spent 5 million to me. They sold (to stores and others) 1.75 million boxes but out of that, only 700k had actually activated the accounts.
That works out to 700K subs at $15/mo= $10,500,000.00 that second month. If you claim they spent a "huge chunk of $100 million on advertising", that would be one of the worst returns in gaming history. Again, I doubt they even spent 5 million on advertising.
"TO MICHAEL!"
You are correct that to many companies release games long before they are ready.
In the case of Mythic, they had a huge budget and a very small time frame. Keep in mind that the game was already pushed back twice so it was originally scheduled to release close to a year earlier. The time frame put on the creation of this game was completely unrealistic. I just don't think a company can throw huge amounts of resources at a game and expect to cut the time table in half. Testing and refinment take tame and cannot be rushed.
I have often wondered if warhammer was just built on top of whatever mythic had done completed for their own mmo imperator. Which would be worse, because it just doesn't work to make such drastic design changes mid project like that, even if you do get awarded a major IP. See TR, SWG for more proof of that concept.
What really upsets me about the game is that mythic thought they hit a home run at release. All the high fiving they did and predictions make them look like they expected to dominate the market after release. It just tells me they really don't understand gamers right now. Outside of responding to player feedback (which they are pretty good about), I don't expect much in the way of new interesting ideas from them.
The 100 million was just the development costs and didn't include advertising which isn't classed as been part of development costs in any game.
I see...
Newhopes, what pool of funds are marketing dollars drawn from?
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
The 100 million was just the development costs and didn't include advertising which isn't classed as been part of development costs in any game.
That's not even vaguely true. From what I have read (from info gathered by professional reporters) the budget for WAR was around the $50-$60 million mark. When EA purchased Mythic, they spent LOADS on advertising but very little was spent on extended development. If Mythic had spent $100 million on WAR, the game would have been shut down by now as EA are trying to cut their costs, not extend them.
WAR is sitting at just over 300,000 subs right now. AoC is sitting at just under 300,000 subs right now. Eve Online is sitting at just over 300,000 subs right now. LotRO is suspected to be sitting at somewhere between 300,000-400,000 subs right now. Are you starting to see the running trend here? The only sub-based P2P game that breaks established convention in the west is World of Warcraft at 5,000,000 (excluding Asia).
Developers and investors have been getting to excited about the MMO genre because of WoW. What has happened is the exact opposite to what they wanted to happen. World of Warcraft offers nerfed, accesible, easy and often bland content that people can swallow up but when you look at Eve, WAR, AoC and LotRO they offer more specialised game styles that aren't as accesible as WoW. Sadly, the only way to draw on a large subscriber base is to make a dilluted game like World of Warcraft that demands little skill and is not a personal affair because it is that style of gaming that appeals to the mass market.
WAR is a success. It may not be the success that Mythic wanted it to be but it is still making a fair amount of money. AoC, Eve and LotRO are also successes. They ay have messed up when they released but they have come into their own and continue to grow (Eve has grown massively over the last 6 months and continues to do so). To say that an MMO ust break 1 million subscribers, or even 500,000 subscribers to be a grand success is a fair point but to say that any MMO that does not to that is a failure is a piss poor point.
http://www.themmoquest.com - MMO commentary from an overly angry brit. OFFICIALLY LAUNCHED!
I beg to defer my man.
WoW gameplay is not dilluted, in fact it offers much more than those games that you have mention, that's why its such a success.
Example, class ( forget about balance for now). Compare the Hunter class in WoW with the White Lion in War. For hunter you can tame different pets to be your companion, white lion, you cant. You have CC spells in hunter, white lion, nil... etc etc...
This is just an example of the difference between WoW and the rest of the game. If only the developers for AoC, War, LOTR etc, just put in more ideas and effort in their game design, and not just a 1 sided linear gameplay, than they will enjoy more success. They fail not because their game is specialised, they are just plain boring...
Of course not to talk about releasing too soon before the game is even complete ( except LOTR)...
RIP Orc Choppa
It is very possible for EA to have spent close to $100 million dollars developing the game and not shut it down. If their costs are lower than their revenue what would be the point of shutting it down? That wouldn't somehow recover more of their investment and it would just be throwing out positive cash flow.
AoC is estimated to be around 100k users. Not that it really matters much, but the single mark of success isn't getting 1 million+ for any mmo that releases. However, if a game does sell 1 million+ copies it should be able to retain a decent percentage of those players. Losing 70-90% of the people who try your game is not good. It doesn't matter how you want to craft the numbers or spin words, something is very wrong with those games to do something like that.
You are incorrect that games need to be dumbed down to reach the masses. What they need to be is finished and well designed. That is what warcraft delivered. Refined gameplay that is entertaining. That is exactly what warhammer and conan have not delivered. They are both in a reactive mode where they are trying to fix the problems in their gameplay. Either lacking content, poorly thought out design choices, incomplete mechanics, performance or any other number of issues each game is suffereing.
I guess you have to ask yourself why those games were not able to hold onto the momentum they had. Why did people not stay? It certainly wasn't that the games are to complex to understand. Most of the mechanics are the same and easily understood.
For a more niche market game [Eve] to outperform AAA mainstream games with large intelectual properties backing them I have to go with the thinking that something is wrong with the big games. Since the market is so much bigger than it was a few years ago even a flop can muster hundereds of thousands of players on IP alone.
The 100 million was just the development costs and didn't include advertising which isn't classed as been part of development costs in any game.
That's not even vaguely true. From what I have read (from info gathered by professional reporters) the budget for WAR was around the $50-$60 million mark. When EA purchased Mythic, they spent LOADS on advertising but very little was spent on extended development. If Mythic had spent $100 million on WAR, the game would have been shut down by now as EA are trying to cut their costs, not extend them.
WAR is sitting at just over 300,000 subs right now. AoC is sitting at just under 300,000 subs right now. Eve Online is sitting at just over 300,000 subs right now. LotRO is suspected to be sitting at somewhere between 300,000-400,000 subs right now. Are you starting to see the running trend here? The only sub-based P2P game that breaks established convention in the west is World of Warcraft at 5,000,000 (excluding Asia).
Developers and investors have been getting to excited about the MMO genre because of WoW. What has happened is the exact opposite to what they wanted to happen. World of Warcraft offers nerfed, accesible, easy and often bland content that people can swallow up but when you look at Eve, WAR, AoC and LotRO they offer more specialised game styles that aren't as accesible as WoW. Sadly, the only way to draw on a large subscriber base is to make a dilluted game like World of Warcraft that demands little skill and is not a personal affair because it is that style of gaming that appeals to the mass market.
WAR is a success. It may not be the success that Mythic wanted it to be but it is still making a fair amount of money. AoC, Eve and LotRO are also successes. They ay have messed up when they released but they have come into their own and continue to grow (Eve has grown massively over the last 6 months and continues to do so). To say that an MMO ust break 1 million subscribers, or even 500,000 subscribers to be a grand success is a fair point but to say that any MMO that does not to that is a failure is a piss poor point.
Thats where your wrong they didn't even do any but the bare minimum advertising until recently, it was only in the last 2-3 months where there has been any noticeable advertising so I don't know how you could think they spent 20-30 milion on advertising from.
15$ * 300.000 = 4.500.000$
4,5M$ * 9 Months? = 40M
700.000 boxes * 50$?= 35M
+ the boxes they have sold since the 700.000 numbers were released.
Not that bad imho.
even if they haven't got all their investments back yet...I think it's safe to say they will eventually.
The developer only see's about 15-20% of the retail box price so they would have only seen about 7 million from the initial box sales.
Sub wise thet've already said they need 250k subs to be profitable so ATM there 50k subs in the green so $15 * 50000=$750000 Profit a month
At a recent conference on gaming at MIT, it was stated that the developer gets about $20 on a $50 box sale, which puts that percentage at about 40%.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
At a recent conference on gaming at MIT, it was stated that the developer gets about $20 on a $50 box sale, which puts that percentage at about 40%.
40% is a little overboard the normal percentages seen by game developers range from 10-30% depending on the risks and how well known a title is, some of the better known game's like halo which are almost certain to shift large numbers will have the power to demand a higher share but those game will be few and far between.
To you? Yes. But it's dishonest to say it's a success, but not what Mythic wanted it to be. They set certain goals and parameters about what success is. You as a customer/fan cannot redefine them and have them applied as if Mythic and EA would be happy with your take. I know you aren't saying fact, but its clear based on what was laid out as a successful model, your opinion is flat wrong. To say "Hey Mythic, you have 300k subs, grats!" when Mythic was looking for 500K is not successful. Actually, that would be woeful. They don't break a game down purely in terms of being #2; there's cost analysis as the overriding factor.
To CEO of Mythic Entertainment, Mark Jacobs and creator of Warhammer Online? It isn't.
I think you should clarify the difference probably of who you mean. Now unless Mark Jacobs has come out in the past nine months and restated what his personal definition of success is regarding WAR, I think we'll just have to let this one stand. What is a good return for the other games you mentioned as far as 300K subs, yes they probably are happy with that because their games cost a lot less. But WAR spent more than those, especially EVE, so their returns are far different. EVE is operating right now on pure profit, whereas WAR is still trying to recoup startup costs. So what's successful for EVE isn't successful for WAR. Heck, EVE has been out since May 2003.
Eve Online is #2, not WAR. Mark Jacobs did not say 500k would be a "grand success" as you put it. He said 500k would have only been a "success". Logic dictates if the person who made the thing doesn't think it's successful by its OWN definition, I don't think a fan can just claim it is.
"TO MICHAEL!"
The way business works is you buy something cheap and sell it high.
WAR sold those 700K boxes bulk to Walmart, Best Buy, Circuit City, Gamestop etc in bulk. Meaning that those places bought probably 50k boxes here, 25k boxes there, another 100k boxes to this guy. In order to buy that many boxes, they don't buy them for $50 from Mythic and then turn around and sell them to you for... $50 as well. They'd make no money at all. A store like Walmart is pure profit. If they sell it to you for $50, you can bet they didn't pay over $25 a box or they wouldn't even stock it. They'd make a deal with someone else or would'nt sell it.
Figure they sold 700K boxes for max $20 a box profit. Now recalculate your totals and see if that's still good. Then figure that the boxes they have sold since then have all been DEEPLY discounted for as little as $10 a box. Still looking good?
The only thing that matters is subs, and they have probably dipped back under 300k. They were 300k four months ago, and now they are still at 300k AFTER opening in a whole new world market. That's not good news. All that shows is as many new people that joined WAR, that many old people just quit. Non growth.
It's safe to say ANY game running several years will make their investment back, no matter how crappy it is. I'm sure Asheron's Call made all it's money back. Why? Because it's still running. Same with Matrix Online and other crappy MMOs. WAR will be no different as long as it doesn't shut down, which it won't. WAR can survive perfectly well with 3-4 servers NA side, which is what they will eventually fall to.
"TO MICHAEL!"