maybe this will show Developers out there that the WoW style of game is getting old and people would rather play WoW instead of WoW with Warhammer skins, or Conan skins. thank god the NGE failed so developers can see that we don't want WoW with starwars skins (SW:TOR im looking at you).
maybe this will usher in a new era of quality MMOs, just too bad those wont be out for a couple years.
Speak for yourself. There are obviously some people who like both games.
What an intelligent post... wanting games and companies to fail because you don't like them. Grow up.
_________________________________ JonMichael
Currently: AION, an MMO Beta under NDA Played: WAR, LOTRO, Hellgate: London, CoX, GW, SotNW, DAOC, EQ2, SWG, WoW, AO, Horizons, Second Life, There, TSO Beta'd: There, Second Life, EQ2, DAOC:LotM, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, Gods and Heroes, Hellgate: London, Requiem:Bloodymare, AoC, WAR, DDO, Fallen Earth
maybe this will show Developers out there that the WoW style of game is getting old and people would rather play WoW instead of WoW with Warhammer skins, or Conan skins. thank god the NGE failed so developers can see that we don't want WoW with starwars skins (SW:TOR im looking at you).
maybe this will usher in a new era of quality MMOs, just too bad those wont be out for a couple years.
I'm also glad that AoC is failing but I see the cause as different: Hopefully devs/publishers will complete games before releasing them broken and then blow smoke up their customers butts.
I'm playing Dark Age of Camelot. It was my first and only true love of a fantasy based MMO. Is it the same today as it was at release? No the community if far from it and part of the reason is that its been polluted by WOW exiles if you will. The reason i still play is because there is nothing better if you like a three sided realm vs realm style PVP game. An entire game built around PVP as its primary endgame/focus. I wouldn't call AOC or WAR total failures by any means. They just don't offer a new and improved gaming experience over whats already available 110 times over in MMO games. I think of all the games released in the past couple years that was the biggest let down was WAR. Had they made DAOC 2.0 they would completely own the PVP MMO market right now. Oh well.
Now you say AOC and WAR are failing and your glad, the concept is what in your view is a faliure. Eve online has a steady population that hovers around the 240k mark. To eve that is a success. Warhammer for most daoc players was in effect DAOC 2, the problem was Mythic implemented an excellent RVR system and then put scenarios in because the WOW comunity had them. Scenarios RUINED the game totally yes it made rvr almost instantanious and you could do it anywhere. But in that same vein NOONE went to the open RVR objectives, a key aspect of the game. So the game felt empty because everyone was in their own little scenario instances chain killing the same people. AOC shot themselves in the foot by aiming the game at 18+ that in itself already limits their user base, then they released a very very machine hungry engine that reduced it even further. They then had a unforgivable Memory leak that memory leak should have been cleared 1 week after release. Instead it stayed there for somthing like 3 to 6 months (i think) the player base can forgive missing content but to constnatly crash your computer or require restarts most will give up before the free month ends. They may have fixed it now but still people have a bad taste in their mouth about the release.
Correction.
Double correction
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
I recommend spellborn im not a fanboy but if you can get past the crappy video engine the gameplay and pvp are amazing, screw wow aoc was cool war should be f2p
Wishing for someone or something to fail just makes one look bitter.
It's fair enough to be unhappy with what the mmo genre has to offer these days, but it many ways we the consumers can only blame ourselfs. Look at it as if we're voting for what games and genres we like with our wallets. Right now millons and millions are voting for WoW, so WoW-like games is what we'll get.
Trying to get back at a game (GAME!) for disapointing you by spending hours and hours writing flame posts on the inter-njet is just plain ol' sad.
If you're not entertained by the games on offer, buy a book, get a canoe, do something that makes you happy.
maybe this will show Developers out there that the WoW style of game is getting old and people would rather play WoW instead of WoW with Warhammer skins, or Conan skins. thank god the NGE failed so developers can see that we don't want WoW with starwars skins (SW:TOR im looking at you).
maybe this will usher in a new era of quality MMOs, just too bad those wont be out for a couple years.
Speak for yourself. There are obviously some people who like both games.
What an intelligent post... wanting games and companies to fail because you don't like them. Grow up.
Well they do make a point... tho I would say its not just developers.
As an example I follow Jumpgate Evolution a bit.
"its not going to be enough like the first jump gate"
"they should make it more like EvE..."
The concept for me at least is this...
WoW exists. People who really like WoW... play WoW. You don't need to make another WoW for them as they aren't going to leave their friends and characters to play WoW with a different name and slightly different textures.
EvE exists... Making another "space game" just like EvE isn't doing the market any good.
So tho I would say it could be worded differently it does make a point.
The only reason I would buy a game which was almost exactly like one I liked... would be if the game I liked:
1) shut down
2) was changed in radical ways to be a game I didn't like
So far mostly what I see in the market is a bunch of companies trying to sell rebranded tires... and wondering why no one wants to keep paying the monthly fee. A game should stand on its own merits (for the market it hopes to capture) rather than trying to port the merits of another game into its design.
The post made about DAoC was a pretty good example. Even tho its changed in many ways (quite a few negative) DAoC is still its own animal. I actually went back and played on Devon a bit.. but mostly to say goodbye to the game.
Oh and I'd agree if WAR had been more like DAoC or at least less like games I didn't like enough to subscribe to... Then I would most likely be playing WAR for the next 4 years....
So hopefully developers figure it out... unfortunately losing money seems to be the only way they learn.. and when you consider how much money they may lose... In the end I may just end up with no game(s) to play.
Not necessarily, but it is the most fluent combat style on the market in any game, so I'd say they were the first ones that nailed it, yea.
Really? Other games like Guildwars have very good and fluent combat systems too. Wow just tuned EQs system a bit, so if anyone nailed that it was EQ.
Wows big point was that it was the first MMO that everyone could play without spending a lot of time to learn it. Together with good programming (First Strain and then Kaplan) and the fact that EQ was too old just when it released made it big.
You dont have placeholders and stuff other MMOs at the time hold and you can solo a lot of the content. And of course, Blizzard had many fans already and they have always been good of giving their fans what they want.
That is what I meant by 'user friendly environment' or whatever I said.
I agree with you. WoW's tuning of EQs system, may have been what it needed. I've never played EQ, I wouldn't know. I don't remember Guild War's combat being as fluent as WoW's, but I only played it for a week.
maybe this will show Developers out there that the WoW style of game is getting old and people would rather play WoW instead of WoW with Warhammer skins, or Conan skins. thank god the NGE failed so developers can see that we don't want WoW with starwars skins (SW:TOR im looking at you).
maybe this will usher in a new era of quality MMOs, just too bad those wont be out for a couple years.
Why should you wish these games to fail? There are plenty of people who enjoy playing them, more than enough to keep them profitable
They are no more WoW than WoW is EQ, They represent an incremental evolution of gaming styles attempting to deliver a fresh gaming experiance to an increasingly jaded community. In the process they have both borrowed ideas from previous games and come up with their own innovations
I doubt it will usher in some mythical new era. What it DOES demonstrate is how incredibly difficult it is for a new game to compete with both the quantity and quality of long established MMO's that have invested years of additional development time into expanding and improving their worlds. If anything, it will make future funding for AAA MMO's harder for companies to aquire.
In a couple of years, those hypothetical new games will be competing with todays MMO's, only todays MMO's will, again, have several extra years of new content, balancing, and bug fixes. (This includes AoC and WoW). That will make it very difficult for those new MMO's to compete.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
maybe this will show Developers out there that the WoW style of game is getting old and people would rather play WoW instead of WoW with Warhammer skins, or Conan skins. thank god the NGE failed so developers can see that we don't want WoW with starwars skins (SW:TOR im looking at you).
maybe this will usher in a new era of quality MMOs, just too bad those wont be out for a couple years.
In a couple of years, those hypothetical new games will be competing with todays MMO's, only todays MMO's will, again, have several extra years of new content, balancing, and bug fixes. (This includes AoC and WoW). That will make it very difficult for those new MMO's to compete.
This is not true. New MMOs will be able to compete just fine if they meet the following.
maybe this will show Developers out there that the WoW style of game is getting old and people would rather play WoW instead of WoW with Warhammer skins, or Conan skins. thank god the NGE failed so developers can see that we don't want WoW with starwars skins (SW:TOR im looking at you).
maybe this will usher in a new era of quality MMOs, just too bad those wont be out for a couple years.
In a couple of years, those hypothetical new games will be competing with todays MMO's, only todays MMO's will, again, have several extra years of new content, balancing, and bug fixes. (This includes AoC and WoW). That will make it very difficult for those new MMO's to compete.
This is not true. New MMOs will be able to compete just fine if they meet the following.
Release is smooth
Release has all "features" enabled
Developer has good communication with its players
A good friendly community.
No! reread my statement.
The new MMO's irreguardles of the above, will still be competing against games that have years more development time and already established communities. None of todays AAA MMO's are going to be static, they will continue to add new content, add new features, and polish existing content and features.
No new game is ever going to have an easy time when compared against that kind of standard.
Possible, yes, but very, very, very difficult, and they will be making cuts somewhere.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
This wont usher in the era of quality MMOs. HOwever, I hope it ushers in the realization that MMOs dont just come out of the gate at full speed. PLayers should expect a slow start, and a fun mid race
in the days before warcraft both age of conan and warhammer would have been called succeses . they both have enough interest in them to make money . in the history of mmos warcraft is the exception to the rule in terms of player numbers . it would be foolish to think any mmo will reach its popularity levels for some time to come yet . although with each year that passes the game looks a little more tired and old hat so it will fall from grace . age of conans numbers appear to be on the rise at the moment as do warhammers . these niche mmos offer something differernt from the nigth elves and taurens of warcraft i m glad they are not failing because they keep the fantasy mmo genre alive for people who either grow out of wow , get bored with wow or dont feel wow has anything to offer them .
from what i ve heard warcraft may actually finally face its first big challenge this year in aion . its hard to see anything doing it any real damage but given is very hard to find any negativity surrounding this game in forums it might be the elusive wow killer everyones been talking about . i have my doubts but it would be nice to see blizzards world shaken a bit to say the very least .
I didnt think AoC was much like WoW....Now EQ2, LoTRO, WAR, runes of magic, and several others are eerily similar to wow but not really AoC........
Yeah, I'm not sure how people think that AoC is similar to wow other than it being an mmorpg? WAR has a similar look and ui but other than that I don't find it much like wow either. Lotro was probably the closest to wow of all the games I've played but it has enough differences to distinguish itself.
i just noticed that folks corrected my post to show eves subscriber base at 240k, the funny thing is when i log into eve daily and during different times the number of active players doesnt really move much from 40k. if they got 240k well done it means 200 thousand people are paying eve to not play.
either way failiure and success are relative to your company.
Basically i would also call AOC WOW like the reason being is tht most people will go to a town pick up all the quests go out and complete those quests then return to the town and repeat until all quests done then grind till out of that area.
That sums up MOST modern mmo's
the days of grouping up and grinding on mobs is long gone its all solo content and grinding quests instead.
AoC is not much like wow. It is in the fact that you have buttons on a bar you push. You also follow quests and kill mobs with spells and swords. SO ya in those respects its like wow. WHen I first installed WAR i remember thinking to myself this is wow 2.0. But the whole idea behind the game isnt very wowish. These games failing dont show developers anything. It does show them that they have to be more like WOW to suceed. They will look at AoC and WAR and think to themselves "how can we more wowify these games?" Why be glad when any game fails. It doesnt bring the genre forward. Only money does.
No, it shows that a game has to be without serious bugs to become a success and have all the features at launch that were promised by the devs.
Games doesn't fail because they are or not are like WoW.
They fail because they are launched in an unfinished state.
i just noticed that folks corrected my post to show eves subscriber base at 240k, the funny thing is when i log into eve daily and during different times the number of active players doesnt really move much from 40k. if they got 240k well done it means 200 thousand people are paying eve to not play. either way failiure and success are relative to your company.
When you aren't logged into the game you are paying EvE not to play as well. Or do you expect every person who subscribes to a game to be on at exactly the same time?
For comparison, a typical WoW server has around 20k characters on it. At any given time there are rougly 3k active players.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Warhammer for most daoc players was in effect DAOC 2, the problem was Mythic implemented an excellent RVR system and then put scenarios in because the WOW comunity had them. Scenarios RUINED the game totally yes it made rvr almost instantanious and you could do it anywhere. But in that same vein NOONE went to the open RVR objectives, a key aspect of the game. So the game felt empty because everyone was in their own little scenario instances chain killing the same people.
Disagree completely, scenarios are what saved WAR from failing totally. ORVR at WAR launch was boring. Keeps, just a copy/paste affair accross most of the tiers. Populations were completely ridiculous skewed (I rolled order), when one side can muster up 4 times the people within a few minutes, there is serious balance problems. Why would anyone show when they know the numbers they will be up against is unsurmountable? Scenerios were the only option for a more fair pvp experience. If there were no scenarios I wouldnt have even gone past the first month, and I'm sure there are many exWAR players that cvould agree with me on this.
maybe this will show Developers out there that the WoW style of game is getting old and people would rather play WoW instead of WoW with Warhammer skins, or Conan skins. thank god the NGE failed so developers can see that we don't want WoW with starwars skins (SW:TOR im looking at you).
maybe this will usher in a new era of quality MMOs, just too bad those wont be out for a couple years.
In a couple of years, those hypothetical new games will be competing with todays MMO's, only todays MMO's will, again, have several extra years of new content, balancing, and bug fixes. (This includes AoC and WoW). That will make it very difficult for those new MMO's to compete.
This is not true. New MMOs will be able to compete just fine if they meet the following.
Release is smooth
Release has all "features" enabled
Developer has good communication with its players
A good friendly community.
No! reread my statement.
The new MMO's irreguardles of the above, will still be competing against games that have years more development time and already established communities. None of todays AAA MMO's are going to be static, they will continue to add new content, add new features, and polish existing content and features.
No new game is ever going to have an easy time when compared against that kind of standard.
Possible, yes, but very, very, very difficult, and they will be making cuts somewhere.
So how did WoW compete with EQ1 and OU. I mean EQ1 and OU had tons of content and was polished yet a new game with less content and less polished still beat those games. Your logic is wrong.
I am more disappointed they have not done well. AoC tried to make a even more dumbed down Wow and found most of us did not like that. War completely missed the point that most of us do like to do other things than constantly pvp all the time.
Hopefully some of the upcoming MMO's will take heed.
Comments
Speak for yourself. There are obviously some people who like both games.
What an intelligent post... wanting games and companies to fail because you don't like them. Grow up.
_________________________________
JonMichael
Currently: AION, an MMO Beta under NDA
Played: WAR, LOTRO, Hellgate: London, CoX, GW, SotNW, DAOC, EQ2, SWG, WoW, AO, Horizons, Second Life, There, TSO
Beta'd: There, Second Life, EQ2, DAOC:LotM, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, Gods and Heroes, Hellgate: London, Requiem:Bloodymare, AoC, WAR, DDO, Fallen Earth
I'm also glad that AoC is failing but I see the cause as different: Hopefully devs/publishers will complete games before releasing them broken and then blow smoke up their customers butts.
I'm playing Dark Age of Camelot. It was my first and only true love of a fantasy based MMO. Is it the same today as it was at release? No the community if far from it and part of the reason is that its been polluted by WOW exiles if you will. The reason i still play is because there is nothing better if you like a three sided realm vs realm style PVP game. An entire game built around PVP as its primary endgame/focus. I wouldn't call AOC or WAR total failures by any means. They just don't offer a new and improved gaming experience over whats already available 110 times over in MMO games. I think of all the games released in the past couple years that was the biggest let down was WAR. Had they made DAOC 2.0 they would completely own the PVP MMO market right now. Oh well.
Correction.
Double correction
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
I'm glad they aren't failing because that means a few years from now we don't see a clone of them to capture their market playstyle.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
I recommend spellborn im not a fanboy but if you can get past the crappy video engine the gameplay and pvp are amazing, screw wow aoc was cool war should be f2p
Pathetic troll. 1/10
Wishing for someone or something to fail just makes one look bitter.
It's fair enough to be unhappy with what the mmo genre has to offer these days, but it many ways we the consumers can only blame ourselfs. Look at it as if we're voting for what games and genres we like with our wallets. Right now millons and millions are voting for WoW, so WoW-like games is what we'll get.
Trying to get back at a game (GAME!) for disapointing you by spending hours and hours writing flame posts on the inter-njet is just plain ol' sad.
If you're not entertained by the games on offer, buy a book, get a canoe, do something that makes you happy.
"nerf rock, paper is working as intended."
- Scissors.
Head Chop
Speak for yourself. There are obviously some people who like both games.
What an intelligent post... wanting games and companies to fail because you don't like them. Grow up.
Well they do make a point... tho I would say its not just developers.
As an example I follow Jumpgate Evolution a bit.
"its not going to be enough like the first jump gate"
"they should make it more like EvE..."
The concept for me at least is this...
WoW exists. People who really like WoW... play WoW. You don't need to make another WoW for them as they aren't going to leave their friends and characters to play WoW with a different name and slightly different textures.
EvE exists... Making another "space game" just like EvE isn't doing the market any good.
So tho I would say it could be worded differently it does make a point.
The only reason I would buy a game which was almost exactly like one I liked... would be if the game I liked:
1) shut down
2) was changed in radical ways to be a game I didn't like
So far mostly what I see in the market is a bunch of companies trying to sell rebranded tires... and wondering why no one wants to keep paying the monthly fee. A game should stand on its own merits (for the market it hopes to capture) rather than trying to port the merits of another game into its design.
The post made about DAoC was a pretty good example. Even tho its changed in many ways (quite a few negative) DAoC is still its own animal. I actually went back and played on Devon a bit.. but mostly to say goodbye to the game.
Oh and I'd agree if WAR had been more like DAoC or at least less like games I didn't like enough to subscribe to... Then I would most likely be playing WAR for the next 4 years....
So hopefully developers figure it out... unfortunately losing money seems to be the only way they learn.. and when you consider how much money they may lose... In the end I may just end up with no game(s) to play.
Really? Other games like Guildwars have very good and fluent combat systems too. Wow just tuned EQs system a bit, so if anyone nailed that it was EQ.
Wows big point was that it was the first MMO that everyone could play without spending a lot of time to learn it. Together with good programming (First Strain and then Kaplan) and the fact that EQ was too old just when it released made it big.
You dont have placeholders and stuff other MMOs at the time hold and you can solo a lot of the content. And of course, Blizzard had many fans already and they have always been good of giving their fans what they want.
That is what I meant by 'user friendly environment' or whatever I said.
I agree with you. WoW's tuning of EQs system, may have been what it needed. I've never played EQ, I wouldn't know. I don't remember Guild War's combat being as fluent as WoW's, but I only played it for a week.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
This is not true. New MMOs will be able to compete just fine if they meet the following.
Release is smooth
Release has all "features" enabled
Developer has good communication with its players
A good friendly community.
Sooner or Later
This is not true. New MMOs will be able to compete just fine if they meet the following.
Release is smooth
Release has all "features" enabled
Developer has good communication with its players
A good friendly community.
No! reread my statement.
The new MMO's irreguardles of the above, will still be competing against games that have years more development time and already established communities. None of todays AAA MMO's are going to be static, they will continue to add new content, add new features, and polish existing content and features.
No new game is ever going to have an easy time when compared against that kind of standard.
Possible, yes, but very, very, very difficult, and they will be making cuts somewhere.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
This wont usher in the era of quality MMOs. HOwever, I hope it ushers in the realization that MMOs dont just come out of the gate at full speed. PLayers should expect a slow start, and a fun mid race
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
in the days before warcraft both age of conan and warhammer would have been called succeses . they both have enough interest in them to make money . in the history of mmos warcraft is the exception to the rule in terms of player numbers . it would be foolish to think any mmo will reach its popularity levels for some time to come yet . although with each year that passes the game looks a little more tired and old hat so it will fall from grace . age of conans numbers appear to be on the rise at the moment as do warhammers . these niche mmos offer something differernt from the nigth elves and taurens of warcraft i m glad they are not failing because they keep the fantasy mmo genre alive for people who either grow out of wow , get bored with wow or dont feel wow has anything to offer them .
from what i ve heard warcraft may actually finally face its first big challenge this year in aion . its hard to see anything doing it any real damage but given is very hard to find any negativity surrounding this game in forums it might be the elusive wow killer everyones been talking about . i have my doubts but it would be nice to see blizzards world shaken a bit to say the very least .
I didnt think AoC was much like WoW....Now EQ2, LoTRO, WAR, runes of magic, and several others are eerily similar to wow but not really AoC........
Yeah, I'm not sure how people think that AoC is similar to wow other than it being an mmorpg? WAR has a similar look and ui but other than that I don't find it much like wow either. Lotro was probably the closest to wow of all the games I've played but it has enough differences to distinguish itself.
i just noticed that folks corrected my post to show eves subscriber base at 240k, the funny thing is when i log into eve daily and during different times the number of active players doesnt really move much from 40k. if they got 240k well done it means 200 thousand people are paying eve to not play.
either way failiure and success are relative to your company.
War being similar to WoW, sure. But aoc? You smoking crack man? The only thing way and aoc have in common is that they are both mmo's.
Basically i would also call AOC WOW like the reason being is tht most people will go to a town pick up all the quests go out and complete those quests then return to the town and repeat until all quests done then grind till out of that area.
That sums up MOST modern mmo's
the days of grouping up and grinding on mobs is long gone its all solo content and grinding quests instead.
No, it shows that a game has to be without serious bugs to become a success and have all the features at launch that were promised by the devs.
Games doesn't fail because they are or not are like WoW.
They fail because they are launched in an unfinished state.
When you aren't logged into the game you are paying EvE not to play as well. Or do you expect every person who subscribes to a game to be on at exactly the same time?
For comparison, a typical WoW server has around 20k characters on it. At any given time there are rougly 3k active players.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Disagree completely, scenarios are what saved WAR from failing totally. ORVR at WAR launch was boring. Keeps, just a copy/paste affair accross most of the tiers. Populations were completely ridiculous skewed (I rolled order), when one side can muster up 4 times the people within a few minutes, there is serious balance problems. Why would anyone show when they know the numbers they will be up against is unsurmountable? Scenerios were the only option for a more fair pvp experience. If there were no scenarios I wouldnt have even gone past the first month, and I'm sure there are many exWAR players that cvould agree with me on this.
This is not true. New MMOs will be able to compete just fine if they meet the following.
Release is smooth
Release has all "features" enabled
Developer has good communication with its players
A good friendly community.
No! reread my statement.
The new MMO's irreguardles of the above, will still be competing against games that have years more development time and already established communities. None of todays AAA MMO's are going to be static, they will continue to add new content, add new features, and polish existing content and features.
No new game is ever going to have an easy time when compared against that kind of standard.
Possible, yes, but very, very, very difficult, and they will be making cuts somewhere.
So how did WoW compete with EQ1 and OU. I mean EQ1 and OU had tons of content and was polished yet a new game with less content and less polished still beat those games. Your logic is wrong.
Sooner or Later
I am more disappointed they have not done well. AoC tried to make a even more dumbed down Wow and found most of us did not like that. War completely missed the point that most of us do like to do other things than constantly pvp all the time.
Hopefully some of the upcoming MMO's will take heed.