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The problem with story based MMOs

kishekishe Member UncommonPosts: 2,012

You cant feel as unique in MMO as in single player game.

 

 

Jedi 1: "Greetings! I am Jedi whatzoornaym! The savior of Ewoks of Endor!"

 

Bounty Hunter 1: "Yeah I saved them last week"

 

Jedi 2: "me too"

 

Bounty hunter 2: "Yup"

 

Smuggler 1: "Good times...Good times!"

 

Jedi 1: "Sigh"

«1

Comments

  • SwaneaSwanea Member UncommonPosts: 2,401

    Okay.

  • seabeastseabeast Member Posts: 748

    Hi Kishe,

    Ok, I am not sure of what your trying to say here, could be me. Your statement could be turned around some. For example, two players playing the same single player game and talking about it.

    Single player 1: "Greetings! I am Jedi whatzoornaym! The savior of Ewoks of Endor!"

    Single player 2 "Yeah I saved them last week"

    Single player 1 "me too"

    Single player 2 "Sigh"

    The point is this, the reason I play MMO is so I can socialize with other players about a game. I feel unique in an MMO because I can have different toon characteristics at least in dress and weaps, ect. Perhaps I am missing your point, please give me a little more detail.

    V/R,

    SEABE$AST

     

  • kishekishe Member UncommonPosts: 2,012
    Originally posted by seabeast


    Hi Kishe,

    Ok, I am not sure of what your trying to say here, could be me. Your statement could be turned around some. For example, two players playing the same single player game and talking about it.

    Single player 1: "Greetings! I am Jedi whatzoornaym! The savior of Ewoks of Endor!"

    Single player 2 "Yeah I saved them last week"

    Single player 1 "me too"

    Single player 2 "Sigh"

    The point is this, the reason I play MMO is so I can socialize with other players about a game. I feel unique in an MMO because I can have different toon characteristics at least in dress and weaps, ect. Perhaps I am missing your point, please give me a little more detail.

    V/R,

    SEABE$AST
     

     

    Just saying that the roleplayer in me wants to feel heroic rather than yet another drop in the ocean

  • thorwoodthorwood Member Posts: 485

    This aspect kills roleplay in a lot of MMO's when you are near NPC's that give quests and who speak in local chat instead of private chat.  The fix is really simple.  The dialogue for quests  that involve doing something that should be a once only mission like killing a named NPC should be private chat between quest giver and questor.

    However, most MMO's leave single player games for dead when it comes to the amount of content.

  • SwaneaSwanea Member UncommonPosts: 2,401
    Originally posted by kishe

    Originally posted by seabeast


    Hi Kishe,

    Ok, I am not sure of what your trying to say here, could be me. Your statement could be turned around some. For example, two players playing the same single player game and talking about it.

    Single player 1: "Greetings! I am Jedi whatzoornaym! The savior of Ewoks of Endor!"

    Single player 2 "Yeah I saved them last week"

    Single player 1 "me too"

    Single player 2 "Sigh"

    The point is this, the reason I play MMO is so I can socialize with other players about a game. I feel unique in an MMO because I can have different toon characteristics at least in dress and weaps, ect. Perhaps I am missing your point, please give me a little more detail.

    V/R,

    SEABE$AST
     

     

    Just saying that the roleplayer in me wants to feel heroic rather than yet another drop in the ocean

    I dunno.

    Are there ANY MMO's that have any sort of story at all/lore that only one person can do anything at all relating to lore?  This is just something you have to learn to live with. I enjoy RPing, but it is silly to even try think you are the only hero.

  • KerithKerith Member UncommonPosts: 104

    This is an overstressed argument from the sandbox crowd usually used in the way "don't even bother with quests because ...". The point is that there are in fact ways to ensure that the individual player feels more hero-like than in a sandbox mmo (e.g. instances, solo missions, the way someone is communicating and probably a lot more) -- usually this makes the game less-sandboxy. If you ask me, when it comes to MMOs there need to be a mind change concerning Quests more into the direction of global events, which probably means there need to be GameMasters in the true P&P sense of words running these events -- questlines can lead up to it and when the event happens **BAMM** you are the hero.

    Just my two cents

    M

  • trepotrepo Member Posts: 119

    I think MMORPGs need a story to create the world around it. It needs a story to give a meaning to all the lands, cities, quests, NPCs, conflicts etc. Designers need to do the quests so they can be done by more than one person or find a way to give unique quests to only one person. Since this is a MMO, players need to get involved and make the story evolve in the world they're playing in. I think this should be accomplished in finding a way to force players to interact with each others (pvp, tradeskills, a player give another player a task and reward him, etc.). Hope this make sense and sorry for the english

     

    trepo

  • dhayes68dhayes68 Member UncommonPosts: 1,388

    I would differentiate between story based MMO's and story based MMO's that force you to play one specific role in the story line.

    Take AoC for example. Regardless of whatever ideas you may have had about who and what your char is, the game tells you that YOUR character is the 'One' foretold in prophecy, written in the stars, etc... And you and every other player HAS to go through it for every char you make and aside from slightly different details for the different class groups (3) they're all the pretty much the same.

    Rp'ers will discount the story to create their own, and non-rp'ers will discount it just because they don't care.

    IMO, logging into an MMO to find that me and every other character in the game plays the same role in the storyline to be an immersion killer.

     

  • Sain34Sain34 Member UncommonPosts: 293

    Well my opinion is that you aren't special, nor am I. I always thought it was dumb that in all these games everyone is always "special" somehow. I'd rather be the regular joe who gets shit done.

    image

  • Proximo521Proximo521 Member UncommonPosts: 283

    Simply amazing! Does immersion equate to or mean that you have to feel or be important? I feel the difference here is the false impression of what that actually means. Is there one MMO that actually makes your character so different that it makes you completely unique in comparision to everyone else? If so please let me know and I will be wiling to dive into that MMO. Until then, the Idea  to be special and different from everyone else is a false impression. The way I understood Bioware's impression of Story is how the character is Pertinent to their story. Its not about how special you should be in comparision to everyone else. It should feel like what you are doing in your story is pertinent and in turn making you feel like you did make a difference. Also, I did notice that the original OP was suggesting that someone would do the same quest as another. Again, Bioware has specifically stated that every story you play will be different from the next. No repeats. So, really not only did Bioware create an immersion factor but they did it based on your quest and your profession. So i feel this is a misunderstanding and a lot of people have a hard time understanding that. This is not about how important you are. Its about, Do you feel what you are doing is important? Example, does killing 10 rats make you feel important? Or rescuing a Sith spy, that has a Jedi Holocron feel important? Thats the difference for me.

    image

  • v4mp1r3v4mp1r3 Member Posts: 48

    I don't really mind if other people have done the quests before me... If a quest is epic (like that Sith quest you described! Sounds awesome!) it'll be great fun. Even if parts of it are instanced, that's good- it means no one can interrupt my fun. 

    Quests aren't what make you a hero in an MMORPG, player interaction, your social actions, things like that are what make you a hero- quests are just something for you to do along the way to the cap.

    I realise that sounds really crappy, but it's not. Quests don't have to be crap (kill 10 x etc.) to get you to a point in which you play a role with the vast majority of other players (The level cap)- they're just not the part of the game that'll make you a hero. If you wanna be unique and stand out from the crowd, make the crowd know who you are, actually become a hero. 

    Human interaction will always be a Sandbox, people aren't preprogrammed. They're even less preprogrammed on Non-RP servers. If you tell people you slayed a dragon on your own on an RP server they'll act like they care- but they wont. If you prove you did it to a real person(not the character they're pretending to be) that's pretty awesome. I dunno about heroic, but it's a video game, nothing is ACTUALLY heroic, except to NPCs- I suppose if you care about impressing those then you should already be happy with the kill 10 x quests. They always seem pretty chuffed when you get back with 25 gall bladders.

  • KainisKainis Member Posts: 436

    A few points, if I may Kishe. First, to have "unique" quests of the sort that might actually matter in a true "heroic" sense, would require GMs actually playing as the mob bosses. That simply isn't going to happen except for exceptional events that probably really have less to do with the main story arc, and more to do with whatever holiday or update they are pushing. The reason being is because GMs cost money, and everyone would rather have that money go towards meaningful devs fixing bugs and adding content- not a liason position such as a GM. GMs are there to try to help you fix your game (ie /stuck, etc), or to settle disputes- not to always be a punching bag for zealots. In recent titles, a sort of nemesis system is being put in place in pvp, whereas your actually playing something akin to a unique encounter. They are terrorizing your buddies, you beat them- you are the hero. Simple as that.

    Second, is if you look at the hero story from a historical perspective, almost none of the heroes accomplished their feats alone. They always had help. However, the reason you do remember those particular names, is because they had the better publicist. And like any good propaganda, it will be embelished to the point of the hero being the linchpin in accomplishing the deed, whether accurate or not. Some others will come before you and kill that epic mob, some will come after. But for your own role play story- YOU are your own publicist. Make it count.

    And lastly, you are playing an MMO first, RPG after. There is a reason it shows up in that order. This isn't a situation where you are playing with your four buddies in a P&P,  in your mom's basement anymore. This is where hundreds of thousands are playing the exact same campaign as you, and statistically the odds are any possible story will be extremely similiar to your own in the end (yes, even in a "true sandbox"). But again, being your own publicist, you get to write what makes your own hero/ine unique, and thus worthy of being remembered.

    Keep these finer points in mind, and you will feel much better at the end of the day.

    -----------------------
    Tried- L2, Ryzom, WAR, DDO, PWI, Tab Rasa, Requiem, Champs, AA, JD, PWI, SUN, Dawntide

    Played- SWG (pre-cu), AoC, VG, WoW, LoTRO,CoX, EQ2, DAOC, GW, PotBS, Aion, MO,APB, NASA, Fallen Earth, DCUO, Rift

    Playing- EVE, Black Prophecy, TOR

    Waiting for- Tera, Jumpgate Evo, WH40K, WWE, WOD, TSW
    --
    --
    "Hey, if Activision liked it, then they should have put a ring on it," Double Fine President Tim Schafer said. "Oh great, now Beyonce is going to sue me too."

  • TillerTiller Member LegendaryPosts: 10,398

    It's simple, just don't talk to people about what they did.

    SWG Bloodfin vet
    Elder Jedi/Elder Bounty Hunter
     
  • FreddyNoNoseFreddyNoNose Member Posts: 1,558
    Originally posted by kishe

    Originally posted by seabeast


    Hi Kishe,

    Ok, I am not sure of what your trying to say here, could be me. Your statement could be turned around some. For example, two players playing the same single player game and talking about it.

    Single player 1: "Greetings! I am Jedi whatzoornaym! The savior of Ewoks of Endor!"

    Single player 2 "Yeah I saved them last week"

    Single player 1 "me too"

    Single player 2 "Sigh"

    The point is this, the reason I play MMO is so I can socialize with other players about a game. I feel unique in an MMO because I can have different toon characteristics at least in dress and weaps, ect. Perhaps I am missing your point, please give me a little more detail.

    V/R,

    SEABE$AST
     

     

    Just saying that the roleplayer in me wants to feel heroic rather than yet another drop in the ocean



     

    Is you imagination so weak that you can't imagine that  you are heroic?

  • TaucetiTauceti Member Posts: 168

    Hi All,



    Actually if you recall what they said each class is going to have their own unique story / quest so your scenario is not likely to happen. Their may be some crossover {maybe!!} or opposing quest {if they do some PvP based stories...so far not likely}. Also, in their DEV video they imply that each class is going to able to make its self unique {maybe sub-class} and that they might have their own quest too {maybe!!}. So, based on the little we know so far,  you'll have a somewhat unique experience. However, I understand your feelings on this. I personally like a sandbox environment with large volume of content that is updated often; which was one of the failing of SWG.

    This issue does have me concerned in the sense that if Bioware isn't carefully they maybe making an online single player game as opposed to a MMORPG. It will all depend on how beneficial they make grouping and how grouping comes about {the social aspects of the game}. A perfect example of this IMO is Tabula Rasa. In that MMORPG not only was their not any PvP {at least when I played} but there was no real social mechanism that helped people form groups and guilds; something that SWG excelled in. Anyhow, that my thoughts.



    IMO,



    Tauceti

     

  • OptiqueMarquisOptiqueMarquis Member UncommonPosts: 860

    this is why sandbox games are back on the rise, after a period where everyone tried to emulate WoW. people don't want to go through the same experiences as others, because that removes your very own identity in the game. rather, people seek and want to develop a strong and unique identity as well as shape their character in a world that offers them freedom to play. this can only happen by allowing them to choose the skills they want to focus on, interdependancy to other players, player oriented economies, and community features. let those who want to be heroes reach their objective by personality, persistance and competence; whilst those who want to play a more supporting and casual role in the world do just that, instead of placing everyone on a heroes path.

     

  • AntariousAntarious Member UncommonPosts: 2,831
    Originally posted by kishe


    You cant feel as unique in MMO as in single player game.
     
     
    Jedi 1: "Greetings! I am Jedi whatzoornaym! The savior of Ewoks of Endor!"
     
    Bounty Hunter 1: "Yeah I saved them last week"
     
    Jedi 2: "me too"
     
    Bounty hunter 2: "Yup"
     
    Smuggler 1: "Good times...Good times!"
     
    Jedi 1: "Sigh"



     

    Yet this has nothing to do with "story based mmo" ... it has everything to do with how most MMO's are designed...

     

    Story or not...  Dragon XXX is in epic zone... yet it dies each week to multiple guilds and dies again when the lockup timer is up.

    In EQ1 the same "uber loot dropping" bad guys died often..

    Its also almost the same arguement I used when people rant about "instances".

    When you are told about the tower of this super evil wizard... and your group manages to get there to find...

    100 other players inside and not one mob spawned... and any mob that does spawn is immediantly attacked by mini zergs just hoping for a kill.

     

    I really liked Ultima Online for PvE and PvP... the game had many flaws but in some ways it got more "right" than anything I played since.  My opinion is that game design has to move back in time and then take a different course than it currently has.

    I'm ending here without really trying to explain more because a wall of text is boring.

  • RagnavenRagnaven Member Posts: 483

    A lot of story based mmos do well, look at lotro yes everyone shares the same story but there is a finite way around that in the universe of game programing. Either to Randomly generate names for the mobs that are raid kills and are quest kills, or to make it a story that suggest that this is an on going struggle to save that particular place. Some games coming out have taken a radical stance to this, and if you fail the whole world has to wait for the city you were supposed to defend to be rebuilt so they can try it. Now which would you rather have the "I saved them too" Conversation, Or the "yeah you can't do that quest for two weeks cause I screwed up and their whole village was destroyed" conversation.

    Many of you are saying the later, I read your mind with my yoda sense, but the problem with that type of gameplay model is you get one disruptive little jerk who takes and fails the quest every chance he gets. Making it impossible for others to do it and level and forcing people to grind instead.

    If your wondering how a story based mmo works well look at guild wars or lotro where certain events advance the story to a new stage and allow you to see new things. Every game has only so much it can do, until you get a game with a highly active GM event staff you won't really see a game that feels alive. An active event staff makes things happen that happen once and never happen again, this leads to many stories from the old gaming days of DAoC and EQ where player A would just have to say "You shoulda been there man,,,, are you crying cause you missed it? There, there it's okay."

    In short I am sure bioware will make enough choices and paths that you might have more interesting conversations

    Jedi1: I just saved the ewoks

    Bounty hunter 1: you annoying little twit I was trying to exterminate those fuzz ball

    Fight ensues.

  • KaldrannathKaldrannath Member Posts: 22

    Guild Wars, in my mind, is a fair model for what you're talking about, but the world itself is instanced and it still doesn't make the player feel unique in any way as we all have the option of completing the same quests.  WotLK made me feel like I had a little more influence on the world when the environment changed after I completed certain quests, but again, everyone had the option of completing those quests. 

    I'm just brainstorming here, but I think any MMO should have a very solid idea of the storyline for the game (and storylines they will lead to in expansions) before they begin to work on any other aspects of the world.  I think storyline is probably the wrong word as well because it implies that there is only one story and it proceeds in a linear manner.  In my opinion, every NPC in the game should have a program that acurately represents their motivations in the world.  Hector the farmer's program might follow some sort of progression that includes him retiring for the evening (eating dinner, putting his kids to bed, sleeping, whatever), making him unavailable to tell you, the player, about the trouble he's been having with getting his harvest to town due to bandits on the main road.  When he wakes up, you'd likely find him in his field or tending his animals - essentially moving around and seeming busy.  If you talk to him at this time, he'll tell you of his problem in casual conversation, but make no suggestion that you should solve the problem for him.  After all, who would ask some stranger to go running off into the woods to confront armed bandits and likely die?  But the choice to do so becomes available to you.  If you take up the challenge and succeed, Hector will love you and perhaps appeal to you for help with some other problem.  Now, relevent to the OP's comments about players completing the same quests, once you've solved the bandit problem, they go away and because they're no longer a problem for Hector, he no longer offers the quest. 

    People might think this is unfair, but what if the occurance of this entire scenario were on some sort of timer and rotation?  What if, once someone solves the problem for Hector, the scenario replays in a different location (maybe in the same general area) one month later?  There are always people wanting to exploit the meek.  It would make sense.   What if the timer now was random and the scenario didn't always occur on the same day each month (and persist until someone solved it), but once every two weeks to three months?  What if the size of the bandit mob was random?  What if every random quest was like this?  What if the quests were set also to trigger with a world event that was also on a timer?  (Like an invasion).  What if Hector only talked about his personal affairs with a certain race of people (because he's a cranky old farmer who only trusts his own kind)?  You might still run into someone else who could claim that they completed the same quest, but really it wouldn't seem like it.

    Just some thoughts.  I'm not a developer or involved in MMO creation in any way, but I love a good story and I think MMOs in general are missing the boat in favor of creating games that immediately gratify rather than immerse players.

     

  • Darth_OsorDarth_Osor Member Posts: 1,089

    TBH I don't see any real difference between this problem in single player RPGs and MMOs.  I can only assume you know people that played and beat single player RPGs where your character was the epic hero...did you feel any less immersed in your story after talking to other people that played the game and beat it before you did?

    Your character can be important in a story based MMO without being "the One".  Take LotRO for example.  Your characters will never be the ones dropping the ring in the flames of Mordor, but you can still play an important role.

  • hanshotfirsthanshotfirst Member UncommonPosts: 712

    The problem with this thread? It's the same tired argument being regurgitated from at least as far back as January...

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/218277/Story-driven-theme-parks-have-no-longterm-appeal.html

  • AnubisanAnubisan Member UncommonPosts: 1,798

    Kishe,

    The difference here is that Bioware is really trying to make every character's experience fundamentally different from every other character by making choices influence the storyline. If this pans out the way I hope it wil, there will be very few characters with exactly the same path through the game.

    I suppose only time will tell if it works out that way... Personally I have high hopes. Bioware rocks!

  • ktanner3ktanner3 Member UncommonPosts: 4,063

    The problem with people who don't like story based MMOs is they think that everyone in the world should know about it.

    Currently Playing: World of Warcraft

  • AbrahmmAbrahmm Member Posts: 2,448
    Originally posted by hanshotfirst


    The problem with this thread? It's the same tired argument being regurgitated from at least as far back as January...
    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/218277/Story-driven-theme-parks-have-no-longterm-appeal.html

     

    That's a terrible argument. 99% of the threads on this forum are all the same stuff regurgitated over and over.

    Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
    Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
    Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
    Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
    Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.

  • TillerTiller Member LegendaryPosts: 10,398
    Originally posted by Abrahmm

    Originally posted by hanshotfirst


    The problem with this thread? It's the same tired argument being regurgitated from at least as far back as January...
    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/218277/Story-driven-theme-parks-have-no-longterm-appeal.html

     

    That's a terrible argument. 99% of the threads on this Whole  Website are all the same stuff regurgitated over and over.

     

    Fixed

    SWG Bloodfin vet
    Elder Jedi/Elder Bounty Hunter
     
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