I think its just getting way to simple. Its like your riding on those lame car rides at an amusement park that are on rails. Except now they have made the car much more awesome. But the fact of the matter is your still on a rail when it comes to newer games like WoW.
How is WOW any less on rails than EQ? You have the same easier zones that progress to more difficult zones ALL based on level. You can kill anything you want anywhere you want as long as you can actually win. Or are you one of those really smart people that feels he's on rails because quests are presented to you that are COMPLETELY optional?
EQ had one way to advance. Forced grouping through spawn camping. Thats it. No viable, FUN soloing option or decent PvP to speak of. WOW has grouping & soloing, spawn camping & loads of quests, AND PvP in the form of arenas BGs AND open world NONE of which is forced on anyone. WOW has far more diverse options. EQ is more on rails than WOW ever was buddy.
Is This Really an Immersion Gamer v. Commercialized Gamer Discussion?
Immersion Gamer Commercialized Gamer
"Fascinating" "Fun"
Tradition is respected Science is respected
Development is an art Development is a science
Gameplay is varied Gameplay is controlled
Individual gets credit Guild gets credit
Worlds are large and diverse Worlds are small and fixed
Innovation is revered Technology is revered
Character development and story is the goal "Ownage" and accomplishing things is the goal
Complex Simple
I could continue. The problem for us "immersion" gamers, however, is that we are out-numbered - by far. Yet there are more of us than developers would think.
This list is a bunch of jaded bullshit. Sorry, calls it like i see it. Its funny, you guys were saying i'm crass, and that invalidates my points, take a look at this. This entire thread, and the two main (and just about oly) supporters of this completely made up term "Immersion gamer", are simply here to belittle the majority of gamers who do not want "CASASSING, LIFE SUCKING, TIME CONSUMING, I HAVE NOTHING IN MY LIFE OTHER THAN MMO's" bullshit, 10 year old game play.
The only name-calling that I have seen is coming from YOU, and I sense a personal and character sensitivity that have not seen on this web page in a very (very) long time. In fact, I think nearly and virtually anything and everything I say to you would probably be interpreted as an "insult." (See, e.g., Lidane, similarly call me a "drama queen" and then in the same sentence say I was "belittling" his/her intelligence. LOL.).
Yes. I concede we are the minority. Yes. Yes. Yes. We not only have higher values but elevated standards by which we measured our MMORPGS (See, e.g., Lidane explain that his/her priorities were "fun and polish." C.f. immersion gamer priorities such as innovation creativity).
I did not see, and I did not sense, a single person --other than you perhaps-- make any inference to saying they want a "life sucking, time consuming, I have nothing in my life other than MMO's." Sir/Madame, please realize (and please understand) that you are the sole, and only, person to (1) use that language and (2) make that claim. In fact, it is why we "immersion gamers" do not play games such as WoW:
Community (whose goals are simple: fun and polish);
Community (whose language is "drama queen," and it was this point I stopped wasting my time with reading the remainder of the "content" of the post).
The table is valid; it shows the tension and conflict between us (immersion gamers) and you (commercial gamers).
The responses of commercialized gamers illustrate my point beyond my ability to describe it.
Is This Really an Immersion Gamer v. Commercialized Gamer Discussion?
Immersion Gamer Commercialized Gamer
"Fascinating" "Fun"
Tradition is respected Science is respected
Development is an art Development is a science
Gameplay is varied Gameplay is controlled
Individual gets credit Guild gets credit
Worlds are large and diverse Worlds are small and fixed
Innovation is revered Technology is revered
Character development and story is the goal "Ownage" and accomplishing things is the goal
Complex Simple
I could continue. The problem for us "immersion" gamers, however, is that we are out-numbered - by far. Yet there are more of us than developers would think.
This list is a bunch of jaded bullshit. Sorry, calls it like i see it. Its funny, you guys were saying i'm crass, and that invalidates my points, take a look at this. This entire thread, and the two main (and just about oly) supporters of this completely made up term "Immersion gamer", are simply here to belittle the majority of gamers who do not want "CASASSING, LIFE SUCKING, TIME CONSUMING, I HAVE NOTHING IN MY LIFE OTHER THAN MMO's" bullshit, 10 year old game play.
The only name-calling that I have seen is coming from YOU, and I sense a personal and character sensitivity that have not seen on this web page in a very (very) long time. In fact, I think nearly and virtually anything and everything I say to you would probably be interpreted as an "insult." (See, e.g., Lidane, similarly call me a "drama queen" and then in the same sentence say I was "belittling" his/her intelligence. LOL.).
Yes. I concede we are the minority. Yes. Yes. Yes. We not only have higher values but elevated standards by which we measured our MMORPGS (See, e.g., Lidane explain that his/her priorities were "fun and polish." C.f. immersion gamer priorities such as innovation creativity).
I did not see, and I did not sense, a single person --other than you perhaps-- make any inference to saying they want a "life sucking, time consuming, I have nothing in my life other than MMO's." Sir/Madame, please realize (and please understand) that you are the sole, and only, person to (1) use that language and (2) make that claim. In fact, it is why we "immersion gamers" do not play games such as WoW:
Community (whose goals are simple: fun and polish);
Community (whose language is "drama queen," and it was this point I stopped wasting my time with reading the remainder of the "content" of the post).
The table is valid; it shows the tension and conflict between us (immersion gamers) and you (commercial gamers).
The responses of commercialized gamers illustrate my point beyond my ability to describe it.
Yet again, all your doing is trying to prove how "it was so much better it was then" and "kids thies days" with a dash of "I am simply better than you".
I'm a commercialized gamer? I grew up is what happened. I bet my game sheet is longer, and older than yours, this is why i am able to cut through the crap, as see what you really want.
My point still stands, the things you have listed, modern games have, you just don't want to accept it. This is why you give no real descriptions of anything, you simply put out words, and thats it. Meanwhile ignoring everyone in the thread. My choice of words, is because I'm tired of repeating myself
BTW, who the fuck is "WE" and did you get permission from the rest of the 5 to speak on their behalf?
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Is This Really an Immersion Gamer v. Commercialized Gamer Discussion?
Immersion Gamer Commercialized Gamer
"Fascinating" "Fun"
Tradition is respected Science is respected
Development is an art Development is a science
Gameplay is varied Gameplay is controlled
Individual gets credit Guild gets credit
Worlds are large and diverse Worlds are small and fixed
Innovation is revered Technology is revered
Character development and story is the goal "Ownage" and accomplishing things is the goal
Complex Simple
Yet again, all your doing is trying to prove how "it was so much better it was then" and "kids thies days" with a dash of "I am simply better than you".
I'm a commercialized gamer?
My point still stands, the things you have listed, modern games have, you just don't want to accept it. This is why you give no real descriptions of anything, you simply put out words, and thats it. Meanwhile ignoring everyone in the thread. My choice of words, is because I'm tired of repeating myself
I am perhaps asking too much from you. My interest is not in your language such as "crap" or "drama queen." It bores me.
I would like to see your analysis as a commercial gamer critique where we are wrong, as immersion gamers, and where you are right, as a commercial gamer - without name-calling.
You provided no analysis, only denials and name-calling. I am open to any and all discussion, and leave out the caps with "I HAVE NO LIFE OTHER THAN MMOs." I also have not used any language such as, "it was so much better back then." Trust me, dude, you do not know me - and you never will. And that certainly is not my theme, nor anyone else's that I have seen. We do not need that. If you are capable, analyze where I am wrong and where you are right.
The reason why I am responding is because I have time now (summer vacation), but let me explain something that is slighly important from my perspective. I am writing "innovation" and you are saying that I am writing "LIFE SUCKING, TIME CONSUMING." I am discussing "complexity," and you are reading "so much better back then." Do not presumptively construct meaning beyond the plain and clear meaning of the words themselves. Please. Not just here but anywhere. I am serious when I say I do not know if you're doing that on purpose. If you're doing it on purpose, get out of that habit now. If it is not done on purpose, you should read the plain and clear meaning more slowly and perhaps more than twice. I am being completely serious that I suspect you are not (1) able to see my points; (2) analyze or critique my (and even your own) arguments intelligently; and (3) comprehend plain and clear meaning. I want to have a discussion, even a debate with you, but I want it to be a genuine one. Take your time.
You also, have not given meaning to any of the COMPLETELY SUBJECTIVE terms you are using. The definitions are different for everyone, you have been posting hollow BS from page one as if fact.
Quite safe to say i got you pegged like an ape on a banana. Prove me wrong. Go for it.... Dispute my points that you have skipped.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Is This Really an Immersion Gamer v. Commercialized Gamer Discussion?
Immersion Gamer Commercialized Gamer
"Fascinating" "Fun"
Tradition is respected Science is respected
Development is an art Development is a science
Gameplay is varied Gameplay is controlled
Individual gets credit Guild gets credit
Worlds are large and diverse Worlds are small and fixed
Innovation is revered Technology is revered
Character development and story is the goal "Ownage" and accomplishing things is the goal
Complex Simple
I am asking you to analyze this table and critique why I am wrong and why you are right.
Your original analysis said it was "jaded bullshit." If in asking you to analyze this table is beyond your capability, I am fine with that and will end this conversation here and now. I would be delighted, however, to have a discussion with you (or anyone else) on the merits of this table. If I take my key to my boathouse and try to get into my front door, then that is my problem. If I take a square block and try to ram it through a circle hole, then it is my fault. If, as a manager, I ask my staff to do things they are not capable of, it is frustrating for me as it is for them; but it is generally my fault. EDIT: in other words, whether on this web page or in real-life, asking people to do things beyond their capability is frustrating for them and the requester. If you cannot do it, then I will not ask you to do it; and I will not participate in a back-and-forth for your entertainment, unless you made some really interesting, funny, and amusing comments.
My theory is that your analysis amounts to one word, that YOU used, which is "bull shit." If that is your analysis, then I am not going to waste MY time in this back-and-forth childish nonsense. I do not think you are capable, frankly, but you could prove me wrong, which is what I hope you do.
Thing is, that list is jaded, and not in any way a reflection of the two groups you have made up as headers. The two category's are made up terms that only you, seem to know what they mean.
Second, I can list modern games that can fit under each category. Change those titles to "New games" and "Old games", and i can still put games under each. The part you are not getting, is you seem to think your subjective definition of the bullet points under each category is some form of known, accepted, and defined FACT. When they are simply, your subjective opinion, that you have yet to define.
Making an analysis, other than jaded bullshit, imposable.
It would better to define what YOU ARE PERSONALLY looking for, rather than presumptuously thinking you are the figure head of some movement you made up that has anyone other than youself in it.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Change those titles to "New games" and "Old games" Making an analysis, other than jaded bullshit, imposable.
First, thank you for saying it is "impossible." I had that feeling, and I appreciate you not wasting my time.
Second, no. It is not about "new games" or "old games." This is a very (very) serious personal problem of yours. You are constructing the meaning of things beyond their plain and clear meaning, repeatedly. I have never (honestly) seen this on this level. I will write "immersion" and you read, "old game."
The whole point of the table was to demonstrate the difference between "immersion" and "commercialized" gamers. Nothing to do with "old" and "new" other than that immersion gamers respect tradition, unlike commercialized gamers.
Change those titles to "New games" and "Old games"
Making an analysis, other than jaded bullshit, imposable.
First, thank you for saying it is "impossible." I had that feeling, and I appreciate you not wasting my time.
Second, no. It is not about "new games" or "old games." This is a very (very) serious personal problem of yours. You are constructing the meaning of things beyond their plain and clear meaning, repeatedly. I have never (honestly) seen this on this level. I will write "immersion" and you read, "old game."
The whole point of the table was to demonstrate the difference between "immersion" and "commercialized" gamers. Nothing to do with "old" and "new" other than that immersion gamers respect tradition, unlike commercialized gamers.
Where is this plain clear meaning you keep talking about. Is it that game you think you played in your head?
FINE, i bite. List the games that you say, or have based this term "Immersion gamer" on.
I'm waiting.
Also, from your first post.
Originally posted by declaredemer
The mystery and tragedy of the destruction of immersion in MMORPGs has created a vacuum of creativity. Truly innovative concepts, features, tools, and so forth are lacking, missing, and absent in today's MMORPGs. I know because I have tried just about all of them. And, frankly, they all "feel" and "play" the same.
Not about old VS. New a? Come the fuck off it man.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
FINE, i bite. List the games that you say, or have based this term "Immersion gamer" on.
Not about old VS. New a? Come the fuck off it man.
(shouting) IT IS NOT ABOUT OLD v. NEW GAMES! I will not take, as YOU want me to, an "OLD" game and say, ta da! Immersion. It is about commercialization v. immersion. Not about old and new games. STOP CONSTRUCTING meaning beyond the plain and clear language.
Sir/Madame, please, for your own sake, this is on a pitiful level:
FINE, i bite. List the games that you say, or have based this term "Immersion gamer" on.
Not about old VS. New a? Come the fuck off it man.
(shouting) IT IS NOT ABOUT OLD v. NEW GAMES! I will not take, as YOU want me to, an "OLD" game and say, ta da! Immersion. It is about commercialization v. immersion. Not about old and new games. STOP CONSTRUCTING meaning beyond the plain and clear language.
Sir/Madame, please, for your own sake, this is on a pitiful level:
IMMERSION DOES NOT MEAN "OLD GAME"
God Help You!
Dodging the question. Good tactic. You must have something to base all this on do you not? So what is it?
Your right, it doesn't mean old game, except when you speak about it.
IMMERSION:
im·mer·sion
Pronunciation:
i-?m?r-zh?n, -sh?n
Function:
noun
Date:
15th century
: the act of immersing or the state of being immersed: as a: baptism by complete submersion of the person in water b: absorbing involvement <immersion in politics> c: instruction based on extensive exposure to surroundings or conditions that are native or pertinent to the object of study ; especially : foreign language instruction in which only the language being taught is used <learned French through immersion>
It a wholly subjective term that you will not define for others to understand your point of origin.
Now, list the games you base your theory and concept of "IMMERSION GAMER", And tell us why you had it good back then.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Is This Really an Immersion Gamer v. Commercialized Gamer Discussion?
Immersion Gamer Commercialized Gamer
"Fascinating" "Fun"
Tradition is respected Science is respected
Development is an art Development is a science
Gameplay is varied Gameplay is controlled
Individual gets credit Guild gets credit
Worlds are large and diverse Worlds are small and fixed
Innovation is revered Technology is revered
Character development and story is the goal "Ownage" and accomplishing things is the goal
Complex Simple
Immersion gamer is defined here, and even contrasted with commercialized gamers. If you want to talk about how I am personally wrong, or how I am a bad person, I really will get bored quickly.
I am happy, even delighted, however, to discuss where my analysis is flawed, wrong, incorrect, and so forth. Your premise is that old gamers are immersion gamers, and that is a false premise; it is not my premise, and it is not a premise I will defend.
New gamers are also immersion gamers.
It is about priorities, values, and standards.
The only thing that immersion gamers have to do with "old" games is that tradition is respected; that is about it.
Is This Really an Immersion Gamer v. Commercialized Gamer Discussion?
Immersion Gamer Commercialized Gamer
"Fascinating" "Fun"
Tradition is respected Science is respected
Development is an art Development is a science
Gameplay is varied Gameplay is controlled
Individual gets credit Guild gets credit
Worlds are large and diverse Worlds are small and fixed
Innovation is revered Technology is revered
Character development and story is the goal "Ownage" and accomplishing things is the goal
Complex Simple
Immersion gamer is defined here, and even contrasted with commercialized gamers. If you want to talk about how I am personally wrong, or how I am a bad person, I really will get bored quickly.
I am happy, even delighted, however, to discuss where my analysis is flawed, wrong, incorrect, and so forth. Your premise is that old gamers are immersion gamers, and that is a false premise; it is not my premise, and it is not a premise I will defend. New gamers are also immersion gamers. It is about priorities; values; and standards.
The only thing that immersion games have to do with "old" games is that tradition is respected; that is about it.
No, its not. Because AGAIN, that list is subjective. I can put many games, new or old, under ether category and they would line up.
That chart is nothing but something to make your ego better. You have made all this up, with no facts, based on your jaded option, and are citing it as fact.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Is This Really an Immersion Gamer v. Commercialized Gamer Discussion?
Immersion Gamer Commercialized Gamer
"Fascinating" "Fun"
Tradition is respected Science is respected
Development is an art Development is a science
Gameplay is varied Gameplay is controlled
Individual gets credit Guild gets credit
Worlds are large and diverse Worlds are small and fixed
Innovation is revered* Technology is revered
Character development and story is the goal "Ownage" and accomplishing things is the goal
Complex
Simple
*Ex.: Vanguard's fatal flaw was confusing technology and innovation.
One point I will mention, however, that I think is revealed by the table is how new games that try to appeal to immersion gamers make a fatal mistake; they emphasize technology at the cost of innovation. They revere technology believing that new, and cool, or better graphics are, or at least will compensate for the lack of, innovation.
Technology and innovation, interesting and perhaps paradoxically, are often at odds with each other. Innovation does not require technology, and thinking that it does gets you in trouble. Vanguard, for example, I would say is a game whose developers emphasized technology at the cost of innovation. It was its undoing because it resulted in an unwieldy game whose platform many people's PCs were not compatible with. People were expecting a new kind of MMORPG experience (innovation) with a respect for tradition, but received a respect for tradition with a lot of unnecessary technology.
Technology can be emphasized, believing it is innovation, at the cost of real innovation.
Ok, no. I'm sorry, Graphics are completely independent to that of mechanics. One does not trump, or interfere with the other.
This is simply your lack of understanding in how MMO's are made. Tech, and innovation are not at odds, in fact one empowers the other about 90% of the time, in both ways.
Vanguard as an example? No, that's a bad one, as the game had innovation, and Technology. Do not confuse Bad USE or ability to use existing tech, as bad tech.
Games are only as good as those making them, that goes for Tech as well.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Tech, and innovation are not at odds, in fact one empowers the other about 90% of the time, in both ways.
How?
ASIDE: I love the specific 90%, sounds almost authoritative.
So, should we hold you to that standard in asking you to show us how technology "empowers" innovation 90% of the time?
Since we are on the subject, what is innovation and how does technology "empower" it 90% of the time?
This is fascinating for me, and I am eager to learn; I never knew, and I still do not believe, that technology "empowers" innovation 90% of the time. But show me the money.
Tech, and innovation are not at odds, in fact one empowers the other about 90% of the time, in both ways.
How?
ASIDE: I love the specific 90%, sounds almost authoritative.
So, should we hold you to that standard in asking you to show us how technology "empowers" innovation 90% of the time?
Since we are on the subject, what is innovation and how does technology "empower" it 90% of the time?
This is fascinating for me, and I am eager to learn; I never knew, and I still do not believe, that technology "empowers" innovation 90% of the time. But show me the money.
Well, lets see, the tech of plantsides net code empowered the innovation of its game play.
The tech of Vanguard using the unreal engine (that was already developed, leaving time for things) allowed the innovation (Evolution really) of the open world and seamless dungeons, as well as its diplomacy system.
The tech of AOC allowed for the ability of its creators to makes it real time combat possible.
The TECH of EQ1 allowed the genre of MUDS to be brought to a 3D space.
The Technology of LOTRO allowed for the innovation of its music system.
The TECH of Wow allowed for its innovation of accessibility.
Do you want me to go more macro with this, or are getting the gist?
The TECH of City of Heroes allowed for the innovation of its Costumming system.
The tech of this game, is going to allow the innovation of allwoing you to run on walls and its combat system.
Remove the tech, what do you have? The scribblings of some dude on a pice of paper with no thought given to feasibility of implementation.
Now, if in your little declaration, you had said putting visual style before game play mechanics, you may have had something. However all games are coded, and all systems created with programmer art first...visuals came later, and have little to do with game play mechanics or innovation.
Shall i list recent visual/graphical tech that allowed for various innovation to become possible?
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Is This Really an Immersion Gamer v. Commercialized Gamer Discussion?
Immersion Gamer Commercialized Gamer
"Fascinating" "Fun"
Tradition is respected Science is respected
Development is an art Development is a science
Gameplay is varied Gameplay is controlled
Individual gets credit Guild gets credit
Worlds are large and diverse Worlds are small and fixed
Innovation is revered Technology is revered
Character development and story is the goal "Ownage" and accomplishing things is the goal
Complex Simple
I could continue. The problem for us "immersion" gamers, however, is that we are out-numbered - by far. Yet there are more of us than developers would think.
This list is a bunch of jaded bullshit. Sorry, calls it like i see it. Its funny, you guys were saying i'm crass, and that invalidates my points, take a look at this. This entire thread, and the two main (and just about oly) supporters of this completely made up term "Immersion gamer", are simply here to belittle the majority of gamers who do not want "CASASSING, LIFE SUCKING, TIME CONSUMING, I HAVE NOTHING IN MY LIFE OTHER THAN MMO's" bullshit, 10 year old game play.
Time for new socks boys.....
I'm quite sure i have you both pegged correctly, you just don't want to admit it, thankfully, you're the minority.
Keep on keeping on with the games in your head that NEVER existed.
So, I'm guessing you are pointing a finger at me? Hmm. So, where exactly did I belittle anyone or resort to using foul language in the debate?
I'm pretty sure I have you pegged in your intolerant, narrow-visioned view of what MMOs can be (there, about as close to belittling as I see need to do). I'm pretty sure UO and AC existed. The credit card records are out there somewhere to prove it. But I can see that your stance is that you don't like those type of games so noone else should have them. That's cool, to each their own. I'll stand by that games should be made in the WoW mold and the UO/AC mold to offer choice for those who want less time consuming games and those who want more.
Cheers
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Is This Really an Immersion Gamer v. Commercialized Gamer Discussion?
Immersion Gamer Commercialized Gamer
"Fascinating" "Fun"
Tradition is respected Science is respected
Development is an art Development is a science
Gameplay is varied Gameplay is controlled
Individual gets credit Guild gets credit
Worlds are large and diverse Worlds are small and fixed
Innovation is revered Technology is revered
Character development and story is the goal "Ownage" and accomplishing things is the goal
Complex Simple
I could continue. The problem for us "immersion" gamers, however, is that we are out-numbered - by far. Yet there are more of us than developers would think.
This list is a bunch of jaded bullshit. Sorry, calls it like i see it. Its funny, you guys were saying i'm crass, and that invalidates my points, take a look at this. This entire thread, and the two main (and just about oly) supporters of this completely made up term "Immersion gamer", are simply here to belittle the majority of gamers who do not want "CASASSING, LIFE SUCKING, TIME CONSUMING, I HAVE NOTHING IN MY LIFE OTHER THAN MMO's" bullshit, 10 year old game play.
Time for new socks boys.....
I'm quite sure i have you both pegged correctly, you just don't want to admit it, thankfully, you're the minority.
Keep on keeping on with the games in your head that NEVER existed.
So, I'm guessing you are pointing a finger at me? Hmm. So, where exactly did I belittle anyone or resort to using foul language in the debate?
I'm pretty sure I have you pegged in your intolerant, narrow-visioned view of what MMOs can be (there, about as close to belittling as I see need to do). I'm pretty sure UO and AC existed. The credit card records are out there somewhere to prove it. But I can see that your stance is that you don't like those type of games so noone else should have them. That's cool, to each their own. I'll stand by that games should be made in the WoW mold and the UO/AC mold to offer choice for those who want less time consuming games and those who want more.
Cheers
I'm only intolerant to those that can't see the forest from the trees. Also, your assuming, as i have spent more time in sandbox games, than theme park ones. And i enjoy both, for different reasons, and do not begrudge anyone anything, i enjoy that there are so many types.
We are in agreement on that.
But when you too coming out the box claiming that "modern MMO's are dumbed down and are for dumb people" and that your above them, you can go f*** yourselves. Most of this thread has been about...i'm not even going to repeat myself, its elitist bullshit.
Have a nice day. Cheers as well!
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Well, lets see, the tech of plantsides net code empowered the innovation of its game play. The tech of Vanguard using the unreal engine (that was already developed, leaving time for things) allowed the innovation (Evolution really) of the open world and seamless dungeons, as well as its diplomacy system. The tech of AOC allowed for the ability of its creators to makes it real time combat possible. The TECH of EQ1 allowed the genre of MUDS to be brought to a 3D space. The Technology of LOTRO allowed for the innovation of its music system. The TECH of Wow allowed for its innovation of accessibility. Do you want me to go more macro with this, or are getting the gist? The TECH of City of Heroes allowed for the innovation of its Costumming system. The tech of this game, is going to allow the innovation of allwoing you to run on walls and its combat system. Remove the tech, what do you have? The scribblings of some dude on a pice of paper with no thought given to feasibility of implementation.
These are all conclusory statements. These are all (disputable and questionable) conclusions. I asked you specifically to "show" me how technology is required to "empower" 90% of innovation. Your conclusions that "TECH of Wow allowed for its innovation of accessibility" shows me nothing but tells me your opinion.
You think I am like you and trying to get you into a corner; I (honestly) want to see how technology "empowers" 90% of innovation, but we should first agree what innovation is. You are a commercialized gamer, and you revere technology; I am an immersion gamer and revere innovation. I dispute that technology "empowers" innovation 90% of the time, and I am asking you to show me that would statements of conclusion. Can you do that? You were not able to analyze the table that distinguished between immersion and commercialized gamers.
My point is that you can achieve innovation with any technological platform; and the innovation we want does not require technology nearly to the degree that you commercialized gamers revere it. But thank you for illustrating my point that you, as commercialized gamers, really do revere technology.
Do you know the difference between "show" and "tell."
I asked that you "show."
All you did was "tell" by making statements of conclusion.
Is This Really an Immersion Gamer v. Commercialized Gamer Discussion?
Immersion Gamer Commercialized Gamer
"Fascinating" "Fun"
Tradition is respected Science is respected
Development is an art Development is a science
Gameplay is varied Gameplay is controlled
Individual gets credit Guild gets credit
Worlds are large and diverse Worlds are small and fixed
Innovation is revered Technology is revered
Character development and story is the goal "Ownage" and accomplishing things is the goal
Complex Simple
I could continue. The problem for us "immersion" gamers, however, is that we are out-numbered - by far. Yet there are more of us than developers would think.
This list is a bunch of jaded bullshit. Sorry, calls it like i see it. Its funny, you guys were saying i'm crass, and that invalidates my points, take a look at this. This entire thread, and the two main (and just about oly) supporters of this completely made up term "Immersion gamer", are simply here to belittle the majority of gamers who do not want "CASASSING, LIFE SUCKING, TIME CONSUMING, I HAVE NOTHING IN MY LIFE OTHER THAN MMO's" bullshit, 10 year old game play.
Time for new socks boys.....
I'm quite sure i have you both pegged correctly, you just don't want to admit it, thankfully, you're the minority.
Keep on keeping on with the games in your head that NEVER existed.
So, I'm guessing you are pointing a finger at me? Hmm. So, where exactly did I belittle anyone or resort to using foul language in the debate?
I'm pretty sure I have you pegged in your intolerant, narrow-visioned view of what MMOs can be (there, about as close to belittling as I see need to do). I'm pretty sure UO and AC existed. The credit card records are out there somewhere to prove it. But I can see that your stance is that you don't like those type of games so noone else should have them. That's cool, to each their own. I'll stand by that games should be made in the WoW mold and the UO/AC mold to offer choice for those who want less time consuming games and those who want more.
Cheers
I'm only intolerant to those that can't see the forest from the trees. Also, your assuming, as i have spent more time in sandbox games, than theme park ones. And i enjoy both, for different reasons, and do not begrudge anyone anything, i enjoy that there are so many types.
We are in agreement on that.
But when you too coming out the box claiming that "modern MMO's are dumbed down and are for dumb people" and that your above them, you can go f*** yourselves. Most of this thread has been about...i'm not even going to repeat myself, its elitist bullshit.
Have a nice day. Cheers as well!
Again, I challenge you to quote me where I said those words. All I'm getting from you is a bunch of angry, expletive filled rants. As I said, I'm not taking up for anyone (said that specifically in my first post). There is, however, a stereotype, which you have illustrated, about gamers who prefer the more time intensive games. There is also the incorrect assumption that those games, like UO and AC, if modernized, wouldn't do well. Well, that's incorrect until proven so. No game has been made in their light by a large, respectable company since, well, the companies that made them. Those "visions" of games need to be given a serious, modern day go. That is my point.
But hey, if you're to the point where all you have is to tell me to go "f" myself, well...too funny.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Well, lets see, the tech of plantsides net code empowered the innovation of its game play. The tech of Vanguard using the unreal engine (that was already developed, leaving time for things) allowed the innovation (Evolution really) of the open world and seamless dungeons, as well as its diplomacy system. The tech of AOC allowed for the ability of its creators to makes it real time combat possible. The TECH of EQ1 allowed the genre of MUDS to be brought to a 3D space. The Technology of LOTRO allowed for the innovation of its music system. The TECH of Wow allowed for its innovation of accessibility. Do you want me to go more macro with this, or are getting the gist? The TECH of City of Heroes allowed for the innovation of its Costumming system. The tech of this game, is going to allow the innovation of allwoing you to run on walls and its combat system. Remove the tech, what do you have? The scribblings of some dude on a pice of paper with no thought given to feasibility of implementation.
These are all conclusory statements. These are all (disputable and questionable) conclusions. I asked you specifically to "show" me how technology is required to "empower" 90% of innovation. Your conclusions that "TECH of Wow allowed for its innovation of accessibility" shows me nothing but tells me your opinion.
You think I am like you and trying to get you into a corner; I (honestly) want to see how technology "empowers" 90% of innovation, but we should first agree what innovation is. You are a commercialized gamer, and you revere technology; I am an immersion gamer and revere innovation. I dispute that technology "empowers" innovation 90% of the time, and I am asking you to show me that would statements of conclusion. Can you do that? You were not able to analyze the table that distinguished between immersion and commercialized gamers.
My point is that you can achieve innovation with any technological platform; and the innovation we want does not require technology nearly to the degree that you commercialized gamers revere it. But thank you for illustrating my point that you, as commercialized gamers, really do revere technology.
Do you know the difference between "show" and "tell."
I asked that you "show."
All you did was "tell" by making statements of conclusion.
Not my fault if you yourself do not consider them innovations, that's a personal failing. But i did show you.
Whats also funny, is i have a rouge like coming out next month. You guys keep taking my comments to extremes, and flaming me for it. good job.
Again, stereotype much?
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Originally posted by KhalathwyrOriginally posted by declaredemer
Is This Really an Immersion Gamer v. Commercialized Gamer Discussion?
Immersion Gamer Commercialized Gamer
"Fascinating" "Fun"
Tradition is respected Science is respected
Development is an art Development is a science
Gameplay is varied Gameplay is controlled
Individual gets credit Guild gets credit
Worlds are large and diverse Worlds are small and fixed
Innovation is revered Technology is revered
Character development and story is the goal "Ownage" and accomplishing things is the goal
Complex Simple
Again, I challenge you to quote me where I said those words. All I'm getting from you is a bunch of angry, expletive filled rants. As I said, I'm not taking up for anyone (said that specifically in my first post). There is, however, a stereotype, which you have illustrated, about gamers who prefer the more time intensive games. There is also the incorrect assumption that those games, like UO and AC, if modernized, wouldn't do well. Well, that's incorrect until proven so. No game has been made in their light by a large, respectable company since, well, the companies that made them. Those "visions" of games need to be given a serious, modern day go. That is my point. But hey, if you're to the point where all you have is to tell me to go "f" myself, well...too funny.
I still cannot get him to analyze that table, despite his description of "jaded bull shit."
He said that 90% of all innovation is "empowered" by technology. I asked for a "showing" because 90% is an authoritative, specific, and plain percentage. He provided numerous statements of conclusion, and does not appear to understand what innovation is.
Interesting, though, it did illustrate how commercialized gamers revere technology.
You are right. No where, and I mean no where, in the table is "time intensity" a factor.
He thinks "immersion" means old.
He thinks "commercialization" means new.
He constructs definitions of words far beyond their plain and clear meaning; it is weird, and I have not in my LIFE seen it on this level.
He is proving my points:
(1) There is a tension between commercialized and immersion gamers; and
Is This Really an Immersion Gamer v. Commercialized Gamer Discussion?
Immersion Gamer Commercialized Gamer
"Fascinating" "Fun"
Tradition is respected Science is respected
Development is an art Development is a science
Gameplay is varied Gameplay is controlled
Individual gets credit Guild gets credit
Worlds are large and diverse Worlds are small and fixed
Innovation is revered Technology is revered
Character development and story is the goal "Ownage" and accomplishing things is the goal
Complex Simple
I could continue. The problem for us "immersion" gamers, however, is that we are out-numbered - by far. Yet there are more of us than developers would think.
This list is a bunch of jaded bullshit. Sorry, calls it like i see it. Its funny, you guys were saying i'm crass, and that invalidates my points, take a look at this. This entire thread, and the two main (and just about oly) supporters of this completely made up term "Immersion gamer", are simply here to belittle the majority of gamers who do not want "CASASSING, LIFE SUCKING, TIME CONSUMING, I HAVE NOTHING IN MY LIFE OTHER THAN MMO's" bullshit, 10 year old game play.
Time for new socks boys.....
I'm quite sure i have you both pegged correctly, you just don't want to admit it, thankfully, you're the minority.
Keep on keeping on with the games in your head that NEVER existed.
So, I'm guessing you are pointing a finger at me? Hmm. So, where exactly did I belittle anyone or resort to using foul language in the debate?
I'm pretty sure I have you pegged in your intolerant, narrow-visioned view of what MMOs can be (there, about as close to belittling as I see need to do). I'm pretty sure UO and AC existed. The credit card records are out there somewhere to prove it. But I can see that your stance is that you don't like those type of games so noone else should have them. That's cool, to each their own. I'll stand by that games should be made in the WoW mold and the UO/AC mold to offer choice for those who want less time consuming games and those who want more.
Cheers
I'm only intolerant to those that can't see the forest from the trees. Also, your assuming, as i have spent more time in sandbox games, than theme park ones. And i enjoy both, for different reasons, and do not begrudge anyone anything, i enjoy that there are so many types.
We are in agreement on that.
But when you too coming out the box claiming that "modern MMO's are dumbed down and are for dumb people" and that your above them, you can go f*** yourselves. Most of this thread has been about...i'm not even going to repeat myself, its elitist bullshit.
Have a nice day. Cheers as well!
Again, I challenge you to quote me where I said those words. All I'm getting from you is a bunch of angry, expletive filled rants. As I said, I'm not taking up for anyone (said that specifically in my first post). There is, however, a stereotype, which you have illustrated, about gamers who prefer the more time intensive games. There is also the incorrect assumption that those games, like UO and AC, if modernized, wouldn't do well. Well, that's incorrect until proven so. No game has been made in their light by a large, respectable company since, well, the companies that made them. Those "visions" of games need to be given a serious, modern day go. That is my point.
But hey, if you're to the point where all you have is to tell me to go "f" myself, well...too funny.
Your taking my use of "you" personally, please stop.
The main point is, you guys "immersion gamers" keep saying there are no games that cater to you, when that is simply, not even true. I even tried to point you to some, that admittedly you haven't played. Yet somehow you guys are in a position to make drastic claims about an entire industry. As far as those games not doing well, its proven every day, why do you think your posting about it.
Its is a funny world.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Originally posted by KhalathwyrOriginally posted by declaredemer
Is This Really an Immersion Gamer v. Commercialized Gamer Discussion?
Immersion Gamer Commercialized Gamer
"Fascinating" "Fun"
Tradition is respected Science is respected
Development is an art Development is a science
Gameplay is varied Gameplay is controlled
Individual gets credit Guild gets credit
Worlds are large and diverse Worlds are small and fixed
Innovation is revered Technology is revered
Character development and story is the goal "Ownage" and accomplishing things is the goal
Complex Simple
Again, I challenge you to quote me where I said those words. All I'm getting from you is a bunch of angry, expletive filled rants. As I said, I'm not taking up for anyone (said that specifically in my first post). There is, however, a stereotype, which you have illustrated, about gamers who prefer the more time intensive games. There is also the incorrect assumption that those games, like UO and AC, if modernized, wouldn't do well. Well, that's incorrect until proven so. No game has been made in their light by a large, respectable company since, well, the companies that made them. Those "visions" of games need to be given a serious, modern day go. That is my point. But hey, if you're to the point where all you have is to tell me to go "f" myself, well...too funny.
I still cannot get him to analyze that table, despite his description of "jaded bull shit."
He said that 90% of all innovation is "empowered" by technology. I asked for a "showing" because 90% is an authoritative, specific, and plain percentage. He provided numerous statements of conclusion, and does not appear to understand what innovation is.
Interesting, though, it did illustrate how commercialized gamers revere technology.
You are right. No where, and I mean no where, in the table is "time intensity" a factor.
He thinks "immersion" means old.
He thinks "commercialization" means new.
He constructs definitions of words far beyond their plain and clear meaning; it is weird, and I have not in my LIFE seen it on this level.
He is proving my points:
(1) There is a tension between commercialized and immersion gamers; and
I am satisfied he is proving my points, but it is not delightful satisfaction. If that makes sense.
IMPORTANT:
IMMERSION DOES NOT MEAN "OLD"
A STATEMENT OF CONCLUSION SHOWS ME NOTHING
(I asked you to "show" me how technology "empowers" 90% of innovation)
Mother of god you a diluted soul. I have explained many times in this thread, starting out nicely. you however wont come down off your sefritious hobby horse.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Comments
How is WOW any less on rails than EQ? You have the same easier zones that progress to more difficult zones ALL based on level. You can kill anything you want anywhere you want as long as you can actually win. Or are you one of those really smart people that feels he's on rails because quests are presented to you that are COMPLETELY optional?
EQ had one way to advance. Forced grouping through spawn camping. Thats it. No viable, FUN soloing option or decent PvP to speak of. WOW has grouping & soloing, spawn camping & loads of quests, AND PvP in the form of arenas BGs AND open world NONE of which is forced on anyone. WOW has far more diverse options. EQ is more on rails than WOW ever was buddy.
This list is a bunch of jaded bullshit. Sorry, calls it like i see it. Its funny, you guys were saying i'm crass, and that invalidates my points, take a look at this. This entire thread, and the two main (and just about oly) supporters of this completely made up term "Immersion gamer", are simply here to belittle the majority of gamers who do not want "CASASSING, LIFE SUCKING, TIME CONSUMING, I HAVE NOTHING IN MY LIFE OTHER THAN MMO's" bullshit, 10 year old game play.
The only name-calling that I have seen is coming from YOU, and I sense a personal and character sensitivity that have not seen on this web page in a very (very) long time. In fact, I think nearly and virtually anything and everything I say to you would probably be interpreted as an "insult." (See, e.g., Lidane, similarly call me a "drama queen" and then in the same sentence say I was "belittling" his/her intelligence. LOL.).
Yes. I concede we are the minority. Yes. Yes. Yes. We not only have higher values but elevated standards by which we measured our MMORPGS (See, e.g., Lidane explain that his/her priorities were "fun and polish." C.f. immersion gamer priorities such as innovation creativity).
I did not see, and I did not sense, a single person --other than you perhaps-- make any inference to saying they want a "life sucking, time consuming, I have nothing in my life other than MMO's." Sir/Madame, please realize (and please understand) that you are the sole, and only, person to (1) use that language and (2) make that claim. In fact, it is why we "immersion gamers" do not play games such as WoW:
The table is valid; it shows the tension and conflict between us (immersion gamers) and you (commercial gamers).
The responses of commercialized gamers illustrate my point beyond my ability to describe it.
This list is a bunch of jaded bullshit. Sorry, calls it like i see it. Its funny, you guys were saying i'm crass, and that invalidates my points, take a look at this. This entire thread, and the two main (and just about oly) supporters of this completely made up term "Immersion gamer", are simply here to belittle the majority of gamers who do not want "CASASSING, LIFE SUCKING, TIME CONSUMING, I HAVE NOTHING IN MY LIFE OTHER THAN MMO's" bullshit, 10 year old game play.
The only name-calling that I have seen is coming from YOU, and I sense a personal and character sensitivity that have not seen on this web page in a very (very) long time. In fact, I think nearly and virtually anything and everything I say to you would probably be interpreted as an "insult." (See, e.g., Lidane, similarly call me a "drama queen" and then in the same sentence say I was "belittling" his/her intelligence. LOL.).
Yes. I concede we are the minority. Yes. Yes. Yes. We not only have higher values but elevated standards by which we measured our MMORPGS (See, e.g., Lidane explain that his/her priorities were "fun and polish." C.f. immersion gamer priorities such as innovation creativity).
I did not see, and I did not sense, a single person --other than you perhaps-- make any inference to saying they want a "life sucking, time consuming, I have nothing in my life other than MMO's." Sir/Madame, please realize (and please understand) that you are the sole, and only, person to (1) use that language and (2) make that claim. In fact, it is why we "immersion gamers" do not play games such as WoW:
The table is valid; it shows the tension and conflict between us (immersion gamers) and you (commercial gamers).
The responses of commercialized gamers illustrate my point beyond my ability to describe it.
Yet again, all your doing is trying to prove how "it was so much better it was then" and "kids thies days" with a dash of "I am simply better than you".
I'm a commercialized gamer? I grew up is what happened. I bet my game sheet is longer, and older than yours, this is why i am able to cut through the crap, as see what you really want.
My point still stands, the things you have listed, modern games have, you just don't want to accept it. This is why you give no real descriptions of anything, you simply put out words, and thats it. Meanwhile ignoring everyone in the thread. My choice of words, is because I'm tired of repeating myself
BTW, who the fuck is "WE" and did you get permission from the rest of the 5 to speak on their behalf?
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Yet again, all your doing is trying to prove how "it was so much better it was then" and "kids thies days" with a dash of "I am simply better than you".
I'm a commercialized gamer?
My point still stands, the things you have listed, modern games have, you just don't want to accept it. This is why you give no real descriptions of anything, you simply put out words, and thats it. Meanwhile ignoring everyone in the thread. My choice of words, is because I'm tired of repeating myself
I am perhaps asking too much from you. My interest is not in your language such as "crap" or "drama queen." It bores me.
I would like to see your analysis as a commercial gamer critique where we are wrong, as immersion gamers, and where you are right, as a commercial gamer - without name-calling.
You provided no analysis, only denials and name-calling. I am open to any and all discussion, and leave out the caps with "I HAVE NO LIFE OTHER THAN MMOs." I also have not used any language such as, "it was so much better back then." Trust me, dude, you do not know me - and you never will. And that certainly is not my theme, nor anyone else's that I have seen. We do not need that. If you are capable, analyze where I am wrong and where you are right.
The reason why I am responding is because I have time now (summer vacation), but let me explain something that is slighly important from my perspective. I am writing "innovation" and you are saying that I am writing "LIFE SUCKING, TIME CONSUMING." I am discussing "complexity," and you are reading "so much better back then." Do not presumptively construct meaning beyond the plain and clear meaning of the words themselves. Please. Not just here but anywhere. I am serious when I say I do not know if you're doing that on purpose. If you're doing it on purpose, get out of that habit now. If it is not done on purpose, you should read the plain and clear meaning more slowly and perhaps more than twice. I am being completely serious that I suspect you are not (1) able to see my points; (2) analyze or critique my (and even your own) arguments intelligently; and (3) comprehend plain and clear meaning. I want to have a discussion, even a debate with you, but I want it to be a genuine one. Take your time.
Did you read the dam thread man?
You also, have not given meaning to any of the COMPLETELY SUBJECTIVE terms you are using. The definitions are different for everyone, you have been posting hollow BS from page one as if fact.
Quite safe to say i got you pegged like an ape on a banana. Prove me wrong. Go for it.... Dispute my points that you have skipped.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
I am asking you to analyze this table and critique why I am wrong and why you are right.
Your original analysis said it was "jaded bullshit." If in asking you to analyze this table is beyond your capability, I am fine with that and will end this conversation here and now. I would be delighted, however, to have a discussion with you (or anyone else) on the merits of this table. If I take my key to my boathouse and try to get into my front door, then that is my problem. If I take a square block and try to ram it through a circle hole, then it is my fault. If, as a manager, I ask my staff to do things they are not capable of, it is frustrating for me as it is for them; but it is generally my fault. EDIT: in other words, whether on this web page or in real-life, asking people to do things beyond their capability is frustrating for them and the requester. If you cannot do it, then I will not ask you to do it; and I will not participate in a back-and-forth for your entertainment, unless you made some really interesting, funny, and amusing comments.
My theory is that your analysis amounts to one word, that YOU used, which is "bull shit." If that is your analysis, then I am not going to waste MY time in this back-and-forth childish nonsense. I do not think you are capable, frankly, but you could prove me wrong, which is what I hope you do.
Thing is, that list is jaded, and not in any way a reflection of the two groups you have made up as headers. The two category's are made up terms that only you, seem to know what they mean.
Second, I can list modern games that can fit under each category. Change those titles to "New games" and "Old games", and i can still put games under each. The part you are not getting, is you seem to think your subjective definition of the bullet points under each category is some form of known, accepted, and defined FACT. When they are simply, your subjective opinion, that you have yet to define.
Making an analysis, other than jaded bullshit, imposable.
It would better to define what YOU ARE PERSONALLY looking for, rather than presumptuously thinking you are the figure head of some movement you made up that has anyone other than youself in it.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
First, thank you for saying it is "impossible." I had that feeling, and I appreciate you not wasting my time.
Second, no. It is not about "new games" or "old games." This is a very (very) serious personal problem of yours. You are constructing the meaning of things beyond their plain and clear meaning, repeatedly. I have never (honestly) seen this on this level. I will write "immersion" and you read, "old game."
The whole point of the table was to demonstrate the difference between "immersion" and "commercialized" gamers. Nothing to do with "old" and "new" other than that immersion gamers respect tradition, unlike commercialized gamers.
Where is this plain clear meaning you keep talking about. Is it that game you think you played in your head?
FINE, i bite. List the games that you say, or have based this term "Immersion gamer" on.
I'm waiting.
Also, from your first post.
Not about old VS. New a? Come the fuck off it man.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
(shouting) IT IS NOT ABOUT OLD v. NEW GAMES! I will not take, as YOU want me to, an "OLD" game and say, ta da! Immersion. It is about commercialization v. immersion. Not about old and new games. STOP CONSTRUCTING meaning beyond the plain and clear language.
Sir/Madame, please, for your own sake, this is on a pitiful level:
IMMERSION DOES NOT MEAN "OLD GAME"
God Help You!
(shouting) IT IS NOT ABOUT OLD v. NEW GAMES! I will not take, as YOU want me to, an "OLD" game and say, ta da! Immersion. It is about commercialization v. immersion. Not about old and new games. STOP CONSTRUCTING meaning beyond the plain and clear language.
Sir/Madame, please, for your own sake, this is on a pitiful level:
IMMERSION DOES NOT MEAN "OLD GAME"
God Help You!
Dodging the question. Good tactic. You must have something to base all this on do you not? So what is it?
Your right, it doesn't mean old game, except when you speak about it.
IMMERSION:
im·mer·sion
Pronunciation:
i-?m?r-zh?n, -sh?n
Function:
noun
Date:
15th century
: the act of immersing or the state of being immersed: as a: baptism by complete submersion of the person in water b: absorbing involvement <immersion in politics> c: instruction based on extensive exposure to surroundings or conditions that are native or pertinent to the object of study ; especially : foreign language instruction in which only the language being taught is used <learned French through immersion>
It a wholly subjective term that you will not define for others to understand your point of origin.
Now, list the games you base your theory and concept of "IMMERSION GAMER", And tell us why you had it good back then.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Immersion gamer is defined here, and even contrasted with commercialized gamers. If you want to talk about how I am personally wrong, or how I am a bad person, I really will get bored quickly.
I am happy, even delighted, however, to discuss where my analysis is flawed, wrong, incorrect, and so forth. Your premise is that old gamers are immersion gamers, and that is a false premise; it is not my premise, and it is not a premise I will defend.
New gamers are also immersion gamers.
It is about priorities, values, and standards.
The only thing that immersion gamers have to do with "old" games is that tradition is respected; that is about it.
Immersion gamer is defined here, and even contrasted with commercialized gamers. If you want to talk about how I am personally wrong, or how I am a bad person, I really will get bored quickly.
I am happy, even delighted, however, to discuss where my analysis is flawed, wrong, incorrect, and so forth. Your premise is that old gamers are immersion gamers, and that is a false premise; it is not my premise, and it is not a premise I will defend. New gamers are also immersion gamers. It is about priorities; values; and standards.
The only thing that immersion games have to do with "old" games is that tradition is respected; that is about it.
No, its not. Because AGAIN, that list is subjective. I can put many games, new or old, under ether category and they would line up.
That chart is nothing but something to make your ego better. You have made all this up, with no facts, based on your jaded option, and are citing it as fact.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
One point I will mention, however, that I think is revealed by the table is how new games that try to appeal to immersion gamers make a fatal mistake; they emphasize technology at the cost of innovation. They revere technology believing that new, and cool, or better graphics are, or at least will compensate for the lack of, innovation.
Technology and innovation, interesting and perhaps paradoxically, are often at odds with each other. Innovation does not require technology, and thinking that it does gets you in trouble. Vanguard, for example, I would say is a game whose developers emphasized technology at the cost of innovation. It was its undoing because it resulted in an unwieldy game whose platform many people's PCs were not compatible with. People were expecting a new kind of MMORPG experience (innovation) with a respect for tradition, but received a respect for tradition with a lot of unnecessary technology.
Technology can be emphasized, believing it is innovation, at the cost of real innovation.
Ok, no. I'm sorry, Graphics are completely independent to that of mechanics. One does not trump, or interfere with the other.
This is simply your lack of understanding in how MMO's are made. Tech, and innovation are not at odds, in fact one empowers the other about 90% of the time, in both ways.
Vanguard as an example? No, that's a bad one, as the game had innovation, and Technology. Do not confuse Bad USE or ability to use existing tech, as bad tech.
Games are only as good as those making them, that goes for Tech as well.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
How?
ASIDE: I love the specific 90%, sounds almost authoritative.
So, should we hold you to that standard in asking you to show us how technology "empowers" innovation 90% of the time?
Since we are on the subject, what is innovation and how does technology "empower" it 90% of the time?
This is fascinating for me, and I am eager to learn; I never knew, and I still do not believe, that technology "empowers" innovation 90% of the time. But show me the money.
How?
ASIDE: I love the specific 90%, sounds almost authoritative.
So, should we hold you to that standard in asking you to show us how technology "empowers" innovation 90% of the time?
Since we are on the subject, what is innovation and how does technology "empower" it 90% of the time?
This is fascinating for me, and I am eager to learn; I never knew, and I still do not believe, that technology "empowers" innovation 90% of the time. But show me the money.
Well, lets see, the tech of plantsides net code empowered the innovation of its game play.
The tech of Vanguard using the unreal engine (that was already developed, leaving time for things) allowed the innovation (Evolution really) of the open world and seamless dungeons, as well as its diplomacy system.
The tech of AOC allowed for the ability of its creators to makes it real time combat possible.
The TECH of EQ1 allowed the genre of MUDS to be brought to a 3D space.
The Technology of LOTRO allowed for the innovation of its music system.
The TECH of Wow allowed for its innovation of accessibility.
Do you want me to go more macro with this, or are getting the gist?
The TECH of City of Heroes allowed for the innovation of its Costumming system.
The tech of this game, is going to allow the innovation of allwoing you to run on walls and its combat system.
Remove the tech, what do you have? The scribblings of some dude on a pice of paper with no thought given to feasibility of implementation.
Now, if in your little declaration, you had said putting visual style before game play mechanics, you may have had something. However all games are coded, and all systems created with programmer art first...visuals came later, and have little to do with game play mechanics or innovation.
Shall i list recent visual/graphical tech that allowed for various innovation to become possible?
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
This list is a bunch of jaded bullshit. Sorry, calls it like i see it. Its funny, you guys were saying i'm crass, and that invalidates my points, take a look at this. This entire thread, and the two main (and just about oly) supporters of this completely made up term "Immersion gamer", are simply here to belittle the majority of gamers who do not want "CASASSING, LIFE SUCKING, TIME CONSUMING, I HAVE NOTHING IN MY LIFE OTHER THAN MMO's" bullshit, 10 year old game play.
Time for new socks boys.....
I'm quite sure i have you both pegged correctly, you just don't want to admit it, thankfully, you're the minority.
Keep on keeping on with the games in your head that NEVER existed.
So, I'm guessing you are pointing a finger at me? Hmm. So, where exactly did I belittle anyone or resort to using foul language in the debate?
I'm pretty sure I have you pegged in your intolerant, narrow-visioned view of what MMOs can be (there, about as close to belittling as I see need to do). I'm pretty sure UO and AC existed. The credit card records are out there somewhere to prove it. But I can see that your stance is that you don't like those type of games so noone else should have them. That's cool, to each their own. I'll stand by that games should be made in the WoW mold and the UO/AC mold to offer choice for those who want less time consuming games and those who want more.
Cheers
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
This list is a bunch of jaded bullshit. Sorry, calls it like i see it. Its funny, you guys were saying i'm crass, and that invalidates my points, take a look at this. This entire thread, and the two main (and just about oly) supporters of this completely made up term "Immersion gamer", are simply here to belittle the majority of gamers who do not want "CASASSING, LIFE SUCKING, TIME CONSUMING, I HAVE NOTHING IN MY LIFE OTHER THAN MMO's" bullshit, 10 year old game play.
Time for new socks boys.....
I'm quite sure i have you both pegged correctly, you just don't want to admit it, thankfully, you're the minority.
Keep on keeping on with the games in your head that NEVER existed.
So, I'm guessing you are pointing a finger at me? Hmm. So, where exactly did I belittle anyone or resort to using foul language in the debate?
I'm pretty sure I have you pegged in your intolerant, narrow-visioned view of what MMOs can be (there, about as close to belittling as I see need to do). I'm pretty sure UO and AC existed. The credit card records are out there somewhere to prove it. But I can see that your stance is that you don't like those type of games so noone else should have them. That's cool, to each their own. I'll stand by that games should be made in the WoW mold and the UO/AC mold to offer choice for those who want less time consuming games and those who want more.
Cheers
I'm only intolerant to those that can't see the forest from the trees. Also, your assuming, as i have spent more time in sandbox games, than theme park ones. And i enjoy both, for different reasons, and do not begrudge anyone anything, i enjoy that there are so many types.
We are in agreement on that.
But when you too coming out the box claiming that "modern MMO's are dumbed down and are for dumb people" and that your above them, you can go f*** yourselves. Most of this thread has been about...i'm not even going to repeat myself, its elitist bullshit.
Have a nice day. Cheers as well!
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
These are all conclusory statements. These are all (disputable and questionable) conclusions. I asked you specifically to "show" me how technology is required to "empower" 90% of innovation. Your conclusions that "TECH of Wow allowed for its innovation of accessibility" shows me nothing but tells me your opinion.
You think I am like you and trying to get you into a corner; I (honestly) want to see how technology "empowers" 90% of innovation, but we should first agree what innovation is. You are a commercialized gamer, and you revere technology; I am an immersion gamer and revere innovation. I dispute that technology "empowers" innovation 90% of the time, and I am asking you to show me that would statements of conclusion. Can you do that? You were not able to analyze the table that distinguished between immersion and commercialized gamers.
My point is that you can achieve innovation with any technological platform; and the innovation we want does not require technology nearly to the degree that you commercialized gamers revere it. But thank you for illustrating my point that you, as commercialized gamers, really do revere technology.
Do you know the difference between "show" and "tell."
I asked that you "show."
All you did was "tell" by making statements of conclusion.
This list is a bunch of jaded bullshit. Sorry, calls it like i see it. Its funny, you guys were saying i'm crass, and that invalidates my points, take a look at this. This entire thread, and the two main (and just about oly) supporters of this completely made up term "Immersion gamer", are simply here to belittle the majority of gamers who do not want "CASASSING, LIFE SUCKING, TIME CONSUMING, I HAVE NOTHING IN MY LIFE OTHER THAN MMO's" bullshit, 10 year old game play.
Time for new socks boys.....
I'm quite sure i have you both pegged correctly, you just don't want to admit it, thankfully, you're the minority.
Keep on keeping on with the games in your head that NEVER existed.
So, I'm guessing you are pointing a finger at me? Hmm. So, where exactly did I belittle anyone or resort to using foul language in the debate?
I'm pretty sure I have you pegged in your intolerant, narrow-visioned view of what MMOs can be (there, about as close to belittling as I see need to do). I'm pretty sure UO and AC existed. The credit card records are out there somewhere to prove it. But I can see that your stance is that you don't like those type of games so noone else should have them. That's cool, to each their own. I'll stand by that games should be made in the WoW mold and the UO/AC mold to offer choice for those who want less time consuming games and those who want more.
Cheers
I'm only intolerant to those that can't see the forest from the trees. Also, your assuming, as i have spent more time in sandbox games, than theme park ones. And i enjoy both, for different reasons, and do not begrudge anyone anything, i enjoy that there are so many types.
We are in agreement on that.
But when you too coming out the box claiming that "modern MMO's are dumbed down and are for dumb people" and that your above them, you can go f*** yourselves. Most of this thread has been about...i'm not even going to repeat myself, its elitist bullshit.
Have a nice day. Cheers as well!
Again, I challenge you to quote me where I said those words. All I'm getting from you is a bunch of angry, expletive filled rants. As I said, I'm not taking up for anyone (said that specifically in my first post). There is, however, a stereotype, which you have illustrated, about gamers who prefer the more time intensive games. There is also the incorrect assumption that those games, like UO and AC, if modernized, wouldn't do well. Well, that's incorrect until proven so. No game has been made in their light by a large, respectable company since, well, the companies that made them. Those "visions" of games need to be given a serious, modern day go. That is my point.
But hey, if you're to the point where all you have is to tell me to go "f" myself, well...too funny.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
These are all conclusory statements. These are all (disputable and questionable) conclusions. I asked you specifically to "show" me how technology is required to "empower" 90% of innovation. Your conclusions that "TECH of Wow allowed for its innovation of accessibility" shows me nothing but tells me your opinion.
You think I am like you and trying to get you into a corner; I (honestly) want to see how technology "empowers" 90% of innovation, but we should first agree what innovation is. You are a commercialized gamer, and you revere technology; I am an immersion gamer and revere innovation. I dispute that technology "empowers" innovation 90% of the time, and I am asking you to show me that would statements of conclusion. Can you do that? You were not able to analyze the table that distinguished between immersion and commercialized gamers.
My point is that you can achieve innovation with any technological platform; and the innovation we want does not require technology nearly to the degree that you commercialized gamers revere it. But thank you for illustrating my point that you, as commercialized gamers, really do revere technology.
Do you know the difference between "show" and "tell."
I asked that you "show."
All you did was "tell" by making statements of conclusion.
Not my fault if you yourself do not consider them innovations, that's a personal failing. But i did show you.
Whats also funny, is i have a rouge like coming out next month. You guys keep taking my comments to extremes, and flaming me for it. good job.
Again, stereotype much?
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Again, I challenge you to quote me where I said those words. All I'm getting from you is a bunch of angry, expletive filled rants. As I said, I'm not taking up for anyone (said that specifically in my first post). There is, however, a stereotype, which you have illustrated, about gamers who prefer the more time intensive games. There is also the incorrect assumption that those games, like UO and AC, if modernized, wouldn't do well. Well, that's incorrect until proven so. No game has been made in their light by a large, respectable company since, well, the companies that made them. Those "visions" of games need to be given a serious, modern day go. That is my point.
But hey, if you're to the point where all you have is to tell me to go "f" myself, well...too funny.
He is proving my points:
(1) There is a tension between commercialized and immersion gamers; and
(2) (minor point) Commercialized gamers revere technology.
I am satisfied he is proving my points, but it is not delightful satisfaction. If that makes sense.
IMPORTANT:
IMMERSION DOES NOT MEAN "OLD"
A STATEMENT OF CONCLUSION SHOWS ME NOTHING
(I asked you to "show" me how technology "empowers" 90% of innovation)
This list is a bunch of jaded bullshit. Sorry, calls it like i see it. Its funny, you guys were saying i'm crass, and that invalidates my points, take a look at this. This entire thread, and the two main (and just about oly) supporters of this completely made up term "Immersion gamer", are simply here to belittle the majority of gamers who do not want "CASASSING, LIFE SUCKING, TIME CONSUMING, I HAVE NOTHING IN MY LIFE OTHER THAN MMO's" bullshit, 10 year old game play.
Time for new socks boys.....
I'm quite sure i have you both pegged correctly, you just don't want to admit it, thankfully, you're the minority.
Keep on keeping on with the games in your head that NEVER existed.
So, I'm guessing you are pointing a finger at me? Hmm. So, where exactly did I belittle anyone or resort to using foul language in the debate?
I'm pretty sure I have you pegged in your intolerant, narrow-visioned view of what MMOs can be (there, about as close to belittling as I see need to do). I'm pretty sure UO and AC existed. The credit card records are out there somewhere to prove it. But I can see that your stance is that you don't like those type of games so noone else should have them. That's cool, to each their own. I'll stand by that games should be made in the WoW mold and the UO/AC mold to offer choice for those who want less time consuming games and those who want more.
Cheers
I'm only intolerant to those that can't see the forest from the trees. Also, your assuming, as i have spent more time in sandbox games, than theme park ones. And i enjoy both, for different reasons, and do not begrudge anyone anything, i enjoy that there are so many types.
We are in agreement on that.
But when you too coming out the box claiming that "modern MMO's are dumbed down and are for dumb people" and that your above them, you can go f*** yourselves. Most of this thread has been about...i'm not even going to repeat myself, its elitist bullshit.
Have a nice day. Cheers as well!
Again, I challenge you to quote me where I said those words. All I'm getting from you is a bunch of angry, expletive filled rants. As I said, I'm not taking up for anyone (said that specifically in my first post). There is, however, a stereotype, which you have illustrated, about gamers who prefer the more time intensive games. There is also the incorrect assumption that those games, like UO and AC, if modernized, wouldn't do well. Well, that's incorrect until proven so. No game has been made in their light by a large, respectable company since, well, the companies that made them. Those "visions" of games need to be given a serious, modern day go. That is my point.
But hey, if you're to the point where all you have is to tell me to go "f" myself, well...too funny.
Your taking my use of "you" personally, please stop.
The main point is, you guys "immersion gamers" keep saying there are no games that cater to you, when that is simply, not even true. I even tried to point you to some, that admittedly you haven't played. Yet somehow you guys are in a position to make drastic claims about an entire industry. As far as those games not doing well, its proven every day, why do you think your posting about it.
Its is a funny world.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Again, I challenge you to quote me where I said those words. All I'm getting from you is a bunch of angry, expletive filled rants. As I said, I'm not taking up for anyone (said that specifically in my first post). There is, however, a stereotype, which you have illustrated, about gamers who prefer the more time intensive games. There is also the incorrect assumption that those games, like UO and AC, if modernized, wouldn't do well. Well, that's incorrect until proven so. No game has been made in their light by a large, respectable company since, well, the companies that made them. Those "visions" of games need to be given a serious, modern day go. That is my point.
But hey, if you're to the point where all you have is to tell me to go "f" myself, well...too funny.
He is proving my points:
(1) There is a tension between commercialized and immersion gamers; and
(2) (minor point) Commercialized gamers revere technology.
I am satisfied he is proving my points, but it is not delightful satisfaction. If that makes sense.
IMPORTANT:
IMMERSION DOES NOT MEAN "OLD"
A STATEMENT OF CONCLUSION SHOWS ME NOTHING
(I asked you to "show" me how technology "empowers" 90% of innovation)
Mother of god you a diluted soul. I have explained many times in this thread, starting out nicely. you however wont come down off your sefritious hobby horse.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me