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How to Not Innovate: Sell the Same Old Product to the Same Old People (ongoing tension between imme
declaredemer
Member Posts: 2,698
The mystery and tragedy of the destruction of immersion in MMORPGs has created a vacuum of creativity. Truly innovative concepts, features, tools, and so forth are lacking, missing, and absent in today's MMORPGs. I know because I have tried just about all of them. And, frankly, they all "feel" and "play" the same.
It has left the gaming community suspicious, skeptical, and even distrustful of the industry in general. Many among us, and I include myself in this group, will not try games until a trial version is released. Why? We have been burned by incomplete, buggy, and, perhaps worse of all, sameness in "new" MMORPGs.
It is less what we want --immersion, customization, deep Questing, player empowerment tools-- than what developers can create; i.e., bringing not only new forms and styles to MMORPGs but bringing in a larger audience as well. The industry has room, a great deal of room, to grow. The linear MMORPG, however, has little room to grow and will not bring in new customers.
New Products = New Customers
Innovation = Evolution
Same Product = Same Customers
Payment Schemes = De-evolution
We are excited about innovation in this industry, and we want to developers use their collective creative energies to take gameplay to new, different, and fascinating levels. Worlds that feel real not only through the use of technology but by making players a part of it. Player characters with personalities, attributes, and appearances different from all others. Quests that are truly a Quest whose outcome results in something substantial in the world and/or the Hero. Speaking of which, Heroes who are Heroes and not gods. Heroes, together, try to defeat gods; not to become one. And, those who do try to become one, should they succeed, should have unique and difficult challenges. Let's bring life, energy, creativity, and innovation into MMORPG creation again. Let's bring in that spirit of creation that goes hand-in-hand with accomplishment. Yet our accomplishment should not be measured, per se, but how many addicts we have or subscribers but by how truly powerful the MMORPG experience is.
The MMORPG industry needs to innovate and create new, and different, experiences in the MMORPG world
Comments
Not everybody is looking for innovation. Just fresh new challenges that's entertaining. I could care less about seeing something completely new never seen in the genre before. I just want a fun well polished game. You wants and needs does not surpass anybody elses nor is it more important. Infact i hate the direction MMOs are taking and wish we could go backwards. Todays technology and graphics coupled with old school EQ UO style of gameplay.
To be honest i don't play MMOs to be drawn in to this huge imaginary world where i feel like one of the inhabitants. Single player games has and always will do it better. Once you start dealing with L33t $n1p3r d00d_001 then whatever immersion the game is trying to convey will be completely gone. Immersion will always belong to single player games.
I agree with some of the things Fibsdk said, I like innovation don't get me wrong but above all i want my games to be entertaining. I don't wish for a second life or another job when i play a game. Creating vast game worlds with huge amount of content that would take you 10 lifetimes to complete doesn't equal fun, or being forced to make your own weapon/armor/shoe/arrow or whatever by browsing through an seemingly endless amounts of menus and sub-menus doesn't make it a more immersed gameplay, at least not to me.
I also feel that you don't necessarily need new products to bring in new people, you just need new content to keep the players that you have interested. A MMO isn't build on new things alone, if you can't keep a somewhat stable community then most of the efforts going into the game are wasted because players that like a game will most likely tell friends that may or may not join(which in my opinion is far better than constant advertising)
Creating a work of art/fiction that is innovate may sound nice/appealing but it isn't something something so easily achievable.
MMORPG companies don't do this nearly so flagrantly as Capcom and EA used to do (and the latter still does, I gather). How many different Street Fighter 2 games did Capcom try to sell, with mostly the same characters using the same moves? Not even Street Fighter 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6, like they did with Mega Man games, but Street Fighter 2 with some slight edition modifications.
Meanwhile, EA would put out some awful sports games and then re-release them every year. I remember seeing a used game shop with an entire table filled with EA sports games that they were trying to sell for $5 each, which was pretty much the cheapest they'd try to get rid of anything in the store. They had to try to sell cheap, because everyone wanted to get rid of them and no one wanted to buy them, not merely because there was a newer version out, but because they were so awful. For example, in the basketball game of theirs that I have, if you pause the game immediately after the opening jump ball and check your rosters, you'll find that most of your players are already tired and need to come out.
I have a few words for you and i mean them in a positive manner - Go Do It!
If you are tired of the current situation, go and change it. Go design that new and exiting universe, go create the standards that need to be attained and show the world what needs to be done to make gaming better than it is today. Find the people like yourself that can fill in the skills that you lack to move the idea forward to a full concept and then finally to a finished product to show what can be done.
Jumping in here and posting something like this is great, but unless you or whoever else feels the same way is willing to step up to the mark and help create these changes in the industry then why should developers do anything different when what they do already that makes them money.
You seem to feel strongly about this, so go do it!
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
You're not alone in that view.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Something that constantly gets over looked, is that it may be the same old product, but it's not the same old people.
New MMORPG players are born every day. Remember how exciting it was to play an MMORPG for the very first time? Millions (or hundereds of thousands, I don't know the actual number) of players each year still get that experience from current MMORPGs. You don't need something new and innovative for those players. They are not jaded and tired of the same old game mechanics like you are.
We're looking for games geared towards veteran players, but the market still seems to be catering to the new comers that arent' burned out on the genre yet, and never will be, because they are constantly replaced.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Innovations is not the same as evolution. evolution comes more often than innovation, innovations usually take longer, and many more evolutions before it become..good.
Your entire base argument is wrong, and soley based on your small piece of the perspective pie. Simply put, most people do not want innovation, as the innovative games die (Seed, ryzom, countless others), because people complain that its too different, or is lacking features of other games.
Meanwhile, developers are giving people exactly what they want. As evidenced by the evolution and refinement, as well as copy's of the DIKU game. This isn't debatable, its right in front of you.
The genre is evolving, in game play, ideas, and designs, as well as payment types, something you , are proving my point on.
Micotransactions is innovation, you don't want it. You feel its inferior, when its part of the most froward looking thing that has happened lately.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Nope, studies have shown what i said to be true.
We all know people will put up with buggy pieces of shit, if its fun. So, that's not it.
The largest indicator of this, is the fact we get so many clones. Pure and simple.
God dam it MMORPG.com, fix your buggy ass forums please.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Most people on this forum claim they want "innovasion" but what they really want is just how things were pre-WoW and anything that are in some way related to or simillar to WoW is regarded as not innovative even though it is.
If WoW = The Beatles
and WAR = Led Zeppelin
Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
I have to agree, "people" say they want new, fun things, yet if something comes out that really is different it tends to be shunned.
Early adopters are rare and don't make for a good business model sometimes.
They don't really want a return to the old ways either. I recall when VG came out there was much hue and cry about the too long travel times, and the corpse runs. How many people enjoy games that actually take experience away from you when you die. Are there still any games that to do it anymore (that aren't old school)
People tend to flock to certain styles of games, movies, food etc, and rare is the item that can truely innovate a market, especially if it is the first one in the pool. So often is the case, the early trend setters die off, and someone comes along to sell it again with improvements once the public becomes more acclimated to the idea.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There is also that, but that is:
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
The discussion we are having is actually more revealing for me than you might realize, and it is becoming strikingly personal.
The commercialization, and widespread accessibility, of MMORPGs, in my view, has undermined the features for why I enjoyed MMORPGs so much in the first place:
The standard is, seemingly:
In truth, I am increasingly prepared to concede:
*Edit: As a matter of fact, this could be my longest, and now a seemingly permanent run, at never subscribing to a MMORPG. Frankly, I am somewhat "waiting" for classic SWG servers to be released. Sad, yet true.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Nope, studies have shown what i said to be true.
We all know people will put up with buggy pieces of shit, if its fun. So, that's not it.
The largest indicator of this, is the fact we get so many clones. Pure and simple.
God dam it MMORPG.com, fix your buggy ass forums please.
Still disagree. If that was the case Vanguard would be played more. Most people who play mmos have played mmo's for years. Or more like it have been playing the SAME mmo for years reskinned or not. I am one of those that would love to see some true innovation in the genre. I hope Bioware can deliver. I think they will. Alot of my guildies from both my current games talk about this all the time. Bioware has the track record to warrent the benefit of the doubt putting story before convention.
Games have EVOLVED since the games that vanguard tried to emulate, Vanguard, by choose, decided to not pay attention to the evolutions that have happened since the 10 years EQ came out.
Im not mistaken, your comparing Vanguard to modern MMO's, this is the incorrect part, Vanguard intentionally chose to emulate MMO's of 10 years past.
Skipping all the current evolutions, this is why its not played. No where did i say people want first gen games, i said they do not want innovation. Innovation usually comes in the form of "Drastically different than the current gen".
There IS innovation in the current gen, your (not you you, you as in, most people on this site) just not paying attention to it, because it doesn't come from the big 5 dev houses.
Case and point: http://www.wurmonline.com/
Why are you guys not playing that?
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
I'm sorry, you are extremely jaded (No offence), and are putting forth your personal, subjective views as facts. Case in point, a good number of people would completely disagree with you, like myself, for i feel LOTRO has everything your looking for on your list. You will tell me it does not, even if it does more than just about any other game out right now, but here in is the subjective part.
LOTRO has:
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Nope, studies have shown what i said to be true.
We all know people will put up with buggy pieces of shit, if its fun. So, that's not it.
The largest indicator of this, is the fact we get so many clones. Pure and simple.
God dam it MMORPG.com, fix your buggy ass forums please.
Still disagree. If that was the case Vanguard would be played more. Most people who play mmos have played mmo's for years. Or more like it have been playing the SAME mmo for years reskinned or not. I am one of those that would love to see some true innovation in the genre. I hope Bioware can deliver. I think they will. Alot of my guildies from both my current games talk about this all the time. Bioware has the track record to warrent the benefit of the doubt putting story before convention.
Games have EVOLVED since the games that vanguard tried to emulate, Vanguard, by choose, decided to not pay attention to the evolutions that have happened since the 10 years EQ came out.
Im not mistaken, your comparing Vanguard to modern MMO's, this is the incorrect part, Vanguard intentionally chose to emulate MMO's of 10 years past.
Skipping all the current evolutions, this is why its not played. No where did i say people want first gen games, i said they do not want innovation. Innovation usually comes in the form of "Drastically different than the current gen".
Vanguard was mentioned because you said people will play a bugging piece of sh@@ if they think it is fun. I disagree. Vanguard we ALL know wasnt meant to be different. Brad made it. He went back to what he helped create to begin with lol
People play vanguard, they also play shadowbane and a host of other fun, but buggy pices of crap.
I see your edit, Vanguard was diffrent, becouse it was patterned after 10 year old concepts. It was compleatly diffrent that the current gen, and the evolutions of that gen.
Get my point?
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
And what?
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Let me be plain and clear: I recently wrote that LotR Online was the worst MMORPG I ever played. Edit: It is certainly the most boring and predictable.
It seems that the more popular, and highly rated the mass market ranks MMORPGs, the more I dislike them.
The tastes of the mass market are simply incompatible with mine as an "immersion gamer."
Edit 2: Let's face it: MMORPGs are, today, designed for dumb people.
Hence, why the gameplay, worlds, content, and everything else is dumbed-down.
1. Vanguard wasn't abandoned because it wasn't innovative or because it was EQ in new clothes
2. Vanguard wasn't abandoned by the players because the game had bugs
Vanguard was abandoned because the game had gamebreaking bugs. Back when i started playing MMORPGS or PC games in general was back in the late 90's. Living in Denmark we didn't have readily available internet outside dialup. So most of us were forced to go to internet cafes to do our online gaming. Back then gaming cafes were the new fad and were popping up everywere. My point about that is i used to frequent them A LOT and i have met every sorts of players. I have never met a gamer that would quit a game over bugs unless it was severe. Most if not all gamers i have met accept that games can and do have bugs in various amounts. They are quite able to look past it if the game offers enough entertainment and the bugs doesn't make you want to smash your keyboard against the wall.
Vanguard had some major issues. One of them would be falling beneath the world all over the place making you lose exp and making a corpse recovery impossible. So you had to go to a summon stone and take the hit. People can handle losing exp due to not playing well/optimal or whatever it may be. Very few people will accept losing exp to a game bug. That was just one of the issues i know people quit over. It indeed was the bugs that made most quit. Not because people generally quit over bugs but because Vanguard had some severe ones.
The premise of Vanguard, I thought, was "returning to the roots."
The game contained some innovative and creative features, but its concept was "old school" and not "new school."
Fdbsk is exactly right.
Nope, studies have shown what i said to be true.
We all know people will put up with buggy pieces of shit, if its fun. So, that's not it.
The largest indicator of this, is the fact we get so many clones. Pure and simple.
God dam it MMORPG.com, fix your buggy ass forums please.
Still disagree. If that was the case Vanguard would be played more. Most people who play mmos have played mmo's for years. Or more like it have been playing the SAME mmo for years reskinned or not. I am one of those that would love to see some true innovation in the genre. I hope Bioware can deliver. I think they will. Alot of my guildies from both my current games talk about this all the time. Bioware has the track record to warrent the benefit of the doubt putting story before convention.
Games have EVOLVED since the games that vanguard tried to emulate, Vanguard, by choose, decided to not pay attention to the evolutions that have happened since the 10 years EQ came out.
Im not mistaken, your comparing Vanguard to modern MMO's, this is the incorrect part, Vanguard intentionally chose to emulate MMO's of 10 years past.
Skipping all the current evolutions, this is why its not played. No where did i say people want first gen games, i said they do not want innovation. Innovation usually comes in the form of "Drastically different than the current gen".
There IS innovation in the current gen, your (not you you, you as in, most people on this site) just not paying attention to it, because it doesn't come from the big 5 dev houses.
Case and point: http://www.wurmonline.com/
Why are you guys not playing that?
Actually, I'm pretty sure you are 100% wrong in your accessment of why Vanguard isn't being played. IMHO, if Vanguard didn't have the monstrous system requirements, I think it'd have more subscribers than LoTRO. Vanguard is hampered by the 'effort' you have to put in just to 'play the game'. I'm not talking about effort of leveling or crafting etc, I'm talking about the added effort of having to do anything in it. It's sluggish and frustrating, from the menus to crafting and the questing.
My cousin, who is your typical WoW/EQ/casual player. He played WoW for over 4 years and he told me that Vanguard would be better than WoW if it wasn't so sluggish and buggy. His opinions of a game, 90% of the time, reflect it's success/failure. I have no doubt that if VG wasn't so buggy and sluggish, it'd be more successful than LoTRO/Warhammer and AoC. It'd have probably gotten those 400 - 500 subs.
Vanguard's gameplay is superior to any of the new stuff today or old.
Note: I don't play VG now because I just cannot stand how 'slow' the game is, even on a dual core, 3gig ram computer with a 1gig video card.
splat