To the poster above: If gear does not matter PvP is the same as any FPS out there. That segment has many interesting products but in a MMO with character progression as a foundation gear will always make a difference,
Well the problem with WoW PvP is that gear completely negates skill. No good green-geared player has any chance whatsoever against an epiced out crappy player. Thus PvP in WoW is all about who can waste the most time grinding.
I never got into PvP much in WoW. The WoW PvP style wasn't my style. However, I know many friends and guildmates who love the PvP in WoW.
So it bothers me to see someone post that PvPers should stay away from WoW. What authority does this OP have to tell others to stay away. Sure I don't care for WoW PvP, but many enjoy it. I love playing AoC but the PvP is terrible in that game in my opinion, that doesnt stop others enjoying it. I was bored to death with Warhammer, but I loved the PvP (RvR) and would have stayed if I didn't fall asleep while playing. (jk) The most fun PvP I have ever had was in SWG ... and we all know the story about that game.
Everyone has a gamestyle they love. So no one really has the right to tell others to stay away.
"I don't give a sh*t what other people say. I play what I like and I'll pay to do it too!" - SerialMMOist
If you like to pvp, I really don't understand why you haven't moved to warhammer online. I can't grasp why WoW has any pvp servers left at all....
I know, right?
Check out this cool pvp combat action from Warhammer.
That is just stupid popinjay. We can find videos that show retarded features for every game out there - including WoW. Now, Warhammer has issues but it is actually not in the department PvP combat between 10-50 people. In that size range MMO PvP does not become better than WAR right now (with a margin). The client starts to suck ball if you increase the size of the battle though and the end-game is based on such much larger battles... (such a stupid design fail imo).
However, skirmish PvP simply rocks in WAR and is better than the WoW equivalent with a vengeance (but as I said - WAR has many other issues).
For everyones information - I play WoW and has stopped play WAR for the above mentioned reason.
I never got into PvP much in WoW. The WoW PvP style wasn't my style. However, I know many friends and guildmates who love the PvP in WoW. So it bothers me to see someone post that PvPers should stay away from WoW. What authority does this OP have to tell others to stay away. Sure I don't care for WoW PvP, but many enjoy it. I love playing AoC but the PvP is terrible in that game in my opinion, that doesnt stop others enjoying it. I was bored to death with Warhammer, but I loved the PvP (RvR) and would have stayed if I didn't fall asleep while playing. (jk) The most fun PvP I have ever had was in SWG ... and we all know the story about that game. Everyone has a gamestyle they love. So no one really has the right to tell others to stay away.
not at all people will still play games, even pay ridiculous amount (think 3k) for some completely f2p shit game. But i don't think wasting time and money by leveling to 80 and finding out the harsh reality of some games is everyone cup of tea.
Anyone with any real pvp skils doesn't play wow for pvp to begin with most ppl know the pvp in wow is a joke newb pvp haven.And if your good at wow pvp means literally nothing in most other good pvp games.
I played warhammer and WoW. I think WoW is better pvp, and better balanced. Warhammer is pretty boring in pvp it's very slow paced. WoW is much faster pvp based, and much more fun. WAR pretty much sucks.
They both suck, if by fast-paced you mean ZERG ZERG ZERG then yeah you'll enjoy WoW with it's 6 minute battlegrounds.
Queue, zerg, listen to people whine "ORANGE GATE FFS", battle over, did you care if you won or lost , you get to do it again, queue again, zerg, battle over after 6 minutes, did you care if you won or lost (really did you?), get some honour and a token, queue again, do this 30 times....
[Mod Edit]
and you might have enough honour/tokens to get an item which has generic stats on and you could probably get a better item crafted now or just join a dungeon PUG. At least in WAR, players get XP, money and loot for PvPing which prevents twinking (very gay) and there are different PvP scenarios every 10 levels and you can only join them in your bracket.
Anyone with any real pvp skils doesn't play wow for pvp to begin with most ppl know the pvp in wow is a joke newb pvp haven.And if your good at wow pvp means literally nothing in most other good pvp games.
I'm looking for something better to PVP in than WoW. I don't have much time to lvl in different games to a lvl or skill level viable to judge PVP in it's fullnes. Can you please give advice which game to look in for PVP with good control of gameplay, consequences and enough people so I can PVP when I have time and not wait for people to gather for any meaningfull conflict.
If you like to pvp, I really don't understand why you haven't moved to warhammer online. I can't grasp why WoW has any pvp servers left at all....
I know, right?
Check out this cool pvp combat action from Warhammer.
That is just stupid popinjay. We can find videos that show retarded features for every game out there - including WoW. Now, Warhammer has issues but it is actually not in the department PvP combat between 10-50 people. In that size range MMO PvP does not become better than WAR right now (with a margin). The client starts to suck ball if you increase the size of the battle though and the end-game is based on such much larger battles... (such a stupid design fail imo).
However, skirmish PvP simply rocks in WAR and is better than the WoW equivalent with a vengeance (but as I said - WAR has many other issues).
For everyones information - I play WoW and has stopped play WAR for the above mentioned reason.
Last I looked Daoc was still around and consensus is pretty much that Daoc PvP > WAR PvP , only reason people don't play is because it's old and only has 1 alive cluster.
If you like to pvp, I really don't understand why you haven't moved to warhammer online. I can't grasp why WoW has any pvp servers left at all....
I know, right?
Check out this cool pvp combat action from Warhammer.
That is just stupid popinjay. We can find videos that show retarded features for every game out there - including WoW. Now, Warhammer has issues but it is actually not in the department PvP combat between 10-50 people. In that size range MMO PvP does not become better than WAR right now (with a margin). The client starts to suck ball if you increase the size of the battle though and the end-game is based on such much larger battles... (such a stupid design fail imo).
However, skirmish PvP simply rocks in WAR and is better than the WoW equivalent with a vengeance (but as I said - WAR has many other issues).
For everyones information - I play WoW and has stopped play WAR for the above mentioned reason.
Last I looked Daoc was still around and consensus is pretty much that Daoc PvP > WAR PvP , only reason people don't play is because it's old and only has 1 alive cluster.
At least my opinion is that the hard CC/hard counter design choice that DAoC represents is worse that the soft CC with no counter (apart from diminishing resturns/immunity) that WAR represents. It is easier to crush more casual players in DAoC than in WAR due to that so I see where old schoolers come from.
As I stated I think WAR has made more sensible choices in that department. However, DAoC is built around that type of skirmish combat which means apart from being fun it also serves a purpose. That is a huge difference to WAR.
However, skirmish PvP simply rocks in WAR and is better than the WoW equivalent with a vengeance (but as I said - WAR has many other issues).
Are you sure you don't mean it's "totally rad" or "majorly awesome"?
Or perhaps "truly wicked"?
In any event, I'm sure the "gnarliness" of WAR will be a great consolation this summer when you have no one to oRvR with because they went outside their house for the first time in months, and you are down to 7 servers.
I completely agree Templarga - that is the same reason why I finally quit the game.
@Popinjay: If you read my post you would understand that your new post does not make any sense. I stated that WAR has serious issues - issues that made me stop playing the game - hence your post about me playing the game alone means you did not read anything that I wrote. I am willing to give skirmish PvP in WAR alot of thumbs up though since it trumps WoW's skirmish for many reasons. Unfortunately, Skirmish PvP is not part of the end-game in WAR and this is where WAR's design starts to utterly break apart.
In the worst case WAR dies but still lives on through late WoW features - achievements, BGs anywhere in the world, Wintergrasp and a much better LFG tool. This in itself shows how important competition is for any industry. I still hope WAR will survive though.
1) bgs are fail - think afkers and poor people having to put up with them till they lose because of a 15 min penalty if you leave a bg. AVs in some bgs, are completely one sided, think 9 alliance vs 40 horde, and vice versa 2) arena is fail - s5 is completely fail - the introduction of stupid hidden rating system was fail - blizz claim :This ensures that players will not feel penalized for moving between teams, and high ranked teams will not feel penalized for trying out new players without much risk to the team rating itself."
what i saw: people with terrible skill paying players with a 2.4k hidden rating to get them high ratings they do not deserve, some new players doesn't want to try out with fellow new players cos the rating gain is so low. 2 Players with decent skill playing 1600s team - 17 wins, 5 losses, rating gain = 60 after spending hrs. ( Go Grind arena! if spending 40 mins match against FOTM teams dk/pally wasn't enough) Bad player pairs up with good player with hidden rating 2.4k playing 24 matchs with team mostly in the 1500s, 6 wins, 18 losses, rating gain = 90. 3) wintergrasp = laggrasp, same thing some people just afk to get their dailies done, in the start servers went down a few times cos it can't handle the lag introduction of terrible arena zones like the ring of valor ( go sap! before match even starts!) no los available until pillars rising) there are a lot tons more reason if i have to list why the whole s5 was a big fail but basically, for those pvpers who are thinking of trying wow - stay away. Its a decent pve game, but a terrible pvp game. No way this game should be considered an e-sport.
1) bgs are fail - think afkers and poor people having to put up with them till they lose because of a 15 min penalty if you leave a bg. AVs in some bgs, are completely one sided, think 9 alliance vs 40 horde, and vice versa 2) arena is fail - s5 is completely fail - the introduction of stupid hidden rating system was fail - blizz claim :This ensures that players will not feel penalized for moving between teams, and high ranked teams will not feel penalized for trying out new players without much risk to the team rating itself."
what i saw: people with terrible skill paying players with a 2.4k hidden rating to get them high ratings they do not deserve, some new players doesn't want to try out with fellow new players cos the rating gain is so low. 2 Players with decent skill playing 1600s team - 17 wins, 5 losses, rating gain = 60 after spending hrs. ( Go Grind arena! if spending 40 mins match against FOTM teams dk/pally wasn't enough) Bad player pairs up with good player with hidden rating 2.4k playing 24 matchs with team mostly in the 1500s, 6 wins, 18 losses, rating gain = 90. 3) wintergrasp = laggrasp, same thing some people just afk to get their dailies done, in the start servers went down a few times cos it can't handle the lag introduction of terrible arena zones like the ring of valor ( go sap! before match even starts!) no los available until pillars rising) there are a lot tons more reason if i have to list why the whole s5 was a big fail but basically, for those pvpers who are thinking of trying wow - stay away. Its a decent pve game, but a terrible pvp game. No way this game should be considered an e-sport.
Only the PvPers?
Possibly...perhaps...maybe.
It's better to lurk in forums and be thought a fool...than to endlessly "Quote" and remove all doubts.
PvP in Wow IS fast furious action with unhampered smooth play and responsive controls. Spells and counter spells fill the games which causes the usual adrenaline rush ANY good PvP game should have. PvP in War is a rather clunky hampered non fluid and slow affair where unresponsive spells are played without exactly knowing when and how they hit target. ---Since Mythic themselves ackowledge the fact their combat system is indeed not very fluid and responsive, it is strange that people preferring PVP could even accept this; I
wow sir you are the first blind person playing mmos in history
Smooth and responsive controls are definitely a good thing to have, but they're hardly the only deciding factor. I enjoy PvP in WoW as a side activity, an occasional diversion, but it just doesn't have enough substance to be really fun. I still had more fun in Warhammer's PvP, despite its less-than-spectacular controls.
Smooth and responsive controls are definitely a good thing to have, but they're hardly the only deciding factor. I enjoy PvP in WoW as a side activity, an occasional diversion, but it just doesn't have enough substance to be really fun. I still had more fun in Warhammer's PvP, despite its less-than-spectacular controls.
Same here. WoW's fluid combat is second to none but I just didn't have fun pvping in wow, I did in Warhammer and Guild Wars, they are made for pvp and it shows. WoW has a lot of great things going for it but I wouldn't put pvp up there in that list.
I think any reasonable person woud agree that PvP is where Blizzard have lost the plot lately. I dont like the changes to PvE raiding personally, but the PvE raiding changes will not/have not hurt the overall success of WoW's unlike the changes to bg/s and Arenas.
Arena was initially very successfull, especially in seasons 1 and 2. Season 3 was also quite successful but we saw the introduction of personal ratings. This was to address the "welfare epics" of seasons 1 and 2. But since it was only on 2 items it wasn't a big deal.
Then season 4 hit. Tom "Kalgan" Chilton still unhappy that players could lose their way to top PvP "welfare" gear put ratings on almost everything, including the items purchased via bg honor! Players could however still purchase 4/5 s3 gear with arena points and the personal requirements for s3 shoulders and weapons were reduced. Class balance was an issue, warriors and rogues dominated the DPS. Druids and priests dominated the healers. A well played, fully s4 geared dreamstate druid was basically unkillable.
And then came Season 5. Why Blizzard didn't see the writing on the wall after s4 I dont know. Factor in that Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street had taken over from Jeffrey "Tigole" Kaplan as lead class dev, and was nowhere as good, we have the disaster called Season 5. Ridiculous class balance, personal ratings on the top gear, arena points required for the BLUE gear plus the fact that arenas were no longer new and shiny its obvious to see why it was WoW's greatest failure to date. Participation was down 65% from season 4, which was down from season 3. Basically only a fraction of the amount of people from s3 were doing arena in s5.
The problem with arena in seasons 4 and 5 is that is runs counter to EVERYTHING WoW has tried to do. WoW from the beginning tried, and succeeded, in lowering the barriers that stopped people playing mmo's. Even PvE raiding now has been radically re-designed to make everything more accessible. So why the changes to arena to make in inaccessible?
Well, Chilton's dreams of turning WoW into not just the biggest mmo out there but a huge E-Sport obviously clouded Blizzard's judgement. Ever since Dennis "Thresh" Fong won John Carmack (Doom and Quake) Ferrari in 1997 I've been hearing how E-Sports were going to be as big as regular sports. 12 years later and I'm still waiting. I've seen companies, gaming genres, tournaments come and go in that time. All had dreams of turning their game into something as like basketball or soccer. All failed. Computer games are a huge industy in itself and thats how it should be left.
Blizzard have already state they are already in the process of revamping battlergrounds. Ahhh, BG's, the red headed step child of Blizzard. They've been neglected and trivialised by Blizzard for Arena. At least in seasons 3 you could buy season 1 arena gear with bg honor. Same in season 4 with season 2 gear. But with WotLK bg's just had 2nd rate gear at an overpriced value. With deminishing returns removed from hk's people spend more time just running around than actually trying to win and complete the objective. AV is now an abject failure and shadow of its former self.
I doubt Blizzard will see sense and introduce an arena style system for BG's. Pre-BC the battlegrounds were never the problem, the old honor system was. In BC/WotLK the arena system isn't the problem, the arena is. Solution? Bring arena style ratings to bg's. The dev's have already stated they dont want to force 10-15 people together as a team to do rated bg's. There is little doubt that some hybrid system that tries to reward players playing to win, but keeping single queue as the only viable option will be implemented - if anything at all.
@Zorndorf: There is more to PvP than controls Zorn - and even though WoW has better controls WAR is very very close now. Take the example of collision so that tanks can be tanks and actually block a choke point. Or that the height axis actually works? In WoW every mage knows they can shoot spells through most objects (very few are actually solid) - this means that hit and run combat is much less complex in WoW since the engine does not update your position and LoS paths very often (everyone that auto-runs on Heigan knows the same ). The problem with the height axis also results in that a battle ground similar to Gates of Ekrund is not possible with the WoW engine (the whole map is based on small height differences and hide-and-seek aka LoS).
So you are right that the engine is important for PvP and WoW's engine has alot of limitations in PvP. And we have not even touched upon abilitiy composition for classes and DPS vs health (average time-to-kill).
I am not saying WAR is perfect (I have stopped playing it after all) - but the actual PvP is better than WoW's. WAR's problem is totally in the department of end-game design. It is buit on fights that are so large the engine cannot handle it (failure one), mixes PvP with PvE (failure 2) for gear etc, is not transparent in what YOU need to do/accomplish for your side to win (failure 3) and the city siege promotes RvE (realm vs environment) instead of PvP (failure 4). This is where WAR fails, not in the actual PvP skirmish design in itself.
Zorn: WAR's engine can still handle more players in one spot than WoW's so it is not that the engine is inheritantly bad. It cannot handle the WAR end-game design however (since all players on your server will end up in one spot) which is of course a massive failure for WAR.
And I logged on last night and did a few Tier 2 scenarios since WAR's PvP actually is really good Zorn
Have not done any Ulduar yet since I level my alt mage (finished Feralas last night!) Zorn. Seems like a good content patch though. They need to increase the rate of content release however (as I showed in a previous thread).
And the biggest content patch to date was the AQ patch Zorn. And if I am to be critical the patch lacked a 5-man dungeon - that was a great part of the Sunwell patch. They should continue with that tradition.
Comments
Well the problem with WoW PvP is that gear completely negates skill. No good green-geared player has any chance whatsoever against an epiced out crappy player. Thus PvP in WoW is all about who can waste the most time grinding.
I never got into PvP much in WoW. The WoW PvP style wasn't my style. However, I know many friends and guildmates who love the PvP in WoW.
So it bothers me to see someone post that PvPers should stay away from WoW. What authority does this OP have to tell others to stay away. Sure I don't care for WoW PvP, but many enjoy it. I love playing AoC but the PvP is terrible in that game in my opinion, that doesnt stop others enjoying it. I was bored to death with Warhammer, but I loved the PvP (RvR) and would have stayed if I didn't fall asleep while playing. (jk) The most fun PvP I have ever had was in SWG ... and we all know the story about that game.
Everyone has a gamestyle they love. So no one really has the right to tell others to stay away.
"I don't give a sh*t what other people say. I play what I like and I'll pay to do it too!" - SerialMMOist
I know, right?
Check out this cool pvp combat action from Warhammer.
That is just stupid popinjay. We can find videos that show retarded features for every game out there - including WoW. Now, Warhammer has issues but it is actually not in the department PvP combat between 10-50 people. In that size range MMO PvP does not become better than WAR right now (with a margin). The client starts to suck ball if you increase the size of the battle though and the end-game is based on such much larger battles... (such a stupid design fail imo).
However, skirmish PvP simply rocks in WAR and is better than the WoW equivalent with a vengeance (but as I said - WAR has many other issues).
For everyones information - I play WoW and has stopped play WAR for the above mentioned reason.
not at all people will still play games, even pay ridiculous amount (think 3k) for some completely f2p shit game. But i don't think wasting time and money by leveling to 80 and finding out the harsh reality of some games is everyone cup of tea.
Anyone with any real pvp skils doesn't play wow for pvp to begin with most ppl know the pvp in wow is a joke newb pvp haven.And if your good at wow pvp means literally nothing in most other good pvp games.
I played warhammer and WoW. I think WoW is better pvp, and better balanced. Warhammer is pretty boring in pvp it's very slow paced. WoW is much faster pvp based, and much more fun. WAR pretty much sucks.
They both suck, if by fast-paced you mean ZERG ZERG ZERG then yeah you'll enjoy WoW with it's 6 minute battlegrounds.
Queue, zerg, listen to people whine "ORANGE GATE FFS", battle over, did you care if you won or lost , you get to do it again, queue again, zerg, battle over after 6 minutes, did you care if you won or lost (really did you?), get some honour and a token, queue again, do this 30 times....
[Mod Edit]
and you might have enough honour/tokens to get an item which has generic stats on and you could probably get a better item crafted now or just join a dungeon PUG. At least in WAR, players get XP, money and loot for PvPing which prevents twinking (very gay) and there are different PvP scenarios every 10 levels and you can only join them in your bracket.
I'm looking for something better to PVP in than WoW. I don't have much time to lvl in different games to a lvl or skill level viable to judge PVP in it's fullnes. Can you please give advice which game to look in for PVP with good control of gameplay, consequences and enough people so I can PVP when I have time and not wait for people to gather for any meaningfull conflict.
Thank you.
Playing it right now. I can be zerg on zerg, but it's really the only pvp game out there right now that's decent besides maybe eve.
Play warhammer online, roll on dark crag, you can level up entirely by pvp. I recommend scenarios too, they're fun.
I know, right?
Check out this cool pvp combat action from Warhammer.
That is just stupid popinjay. We can find videos that show retarded features for every game out there - including WoW. Now, Warhammer has issues but it is actually not in the department PvP combat between 10-50 people. In that size range MMO PvP does not become better than WAR right now (with a margin). The client starts to suck ball if you increase the size of the battle though and the end-game is based on such much larger battles... (such a stupid design fail imo).
However, skirmish PvP simply rocks in WAR and is better than the WoW equivalent with a vengeance (but as I said - WAR has many other issues).
For everyones information - I play WoW and has stopped play WAR for the above mentioned reason.
Last I looked Daoc was still around and consensus is pretty much that Daoc PvP > WAR PvP , only reason people don't play is because it's old and only has 1 alive cluster.
I know, right?
Check out this cool pvp combat action from Warhammer.
That is just stupid popinjay. We can find videos that show retarded features for every game out there - including WoW. Now, Warhammer has issues but it is actually not in the department PvP combat between 10-50 people. In that size range MMO PvP does not become better than WAR right now (with a margin). The client starts to suck ball if you increase the size of the battle though and the end-game is based on such much larger battles... (such a stupid design fail imo).
However, skirmish PvP simply rocks in WAR and is better than the WoW equivalent with a vengeance (but as I said - WAR has many other issues).
For everyones information - I play WoW and has stopped play WAR for the above mentioned reason.
Last I looked Daoc was still around and consensus is pretty much that Daoc PvP > WAR PvP , only reason people don't play is because it's old and only has 1 alive cluster.
At least my opinion is that the hard CC/hard counter design choice that DAoC represents is worse that the soft CC with no counter (apart from diminishing resturns/immunity) that WAR represents. It is easier to crush more casual players in DAoC than in WAR due to that so I see where old schoolers come from.
As I stated I think WAR has made more sensible choices in that department. However, DAoC is built around that type of skirmish combat which means apart from being fun it also serves a purpose. That is a huge difference to WAR.
Are you sure you don't mean it's "totally rad" or "majorly awesome"?
Or perhaps "truly wicked"?
In any event, I'm sure the "gnarliness" of WAR will be a great consolation this summer when you have no one to oRvR with because they went outside their house for the first time in months, and you are down to 7 servers.
"TO MICHAEL!"
I had my mouse pointer poised over the "subscribe" button. Thank you sir...thank you. Whew! Man that was close. Thank you.
It's better to lurk in forums and be thought a fool...than to endlessly "Quote" and remove all doubts.
I completely agree Templarga - that is the same reason why I finally quit the game.
@Popinjay: If you read my post you would understand that your new post does not make any sense. I stated that WAR has serious issues - issues that made me stop playing the game - hence your post about me playing the game alone means you did not read anything that I wrote. I am willing to give skirmish PvP in WAR alot of thumbs up though since it trumps WoW's skirmish for many reasons. Unfortunately, Skirmish PvP is not part of the end-game in WAR and this is where WAR's design starts to utterly break apart.
In the worst case WAR dies but still lives on through late WoW features - achievements, BGs anywhere in the world, Wintergrasp and a much better LFG tool. This in itself shows how important competition is for any industry. I still hope WAR will survive though.
Only the PvPers?
Only the PvPers?
Possibly...perhaps...maybe.
It's better to lurk in forums and be thought a fool...than to endlessly "Quote" and remove all doubts.
wow sir you are the first blind person playing mmos in history
Smooth and responsive controls are definitely a good thing to have, but they're hardly the only deciding factor. I enjoy PvP in WoW as a side activity, an occasional diversion, but it just doesn't have enough substance to be really fun. I still had more fun in Warhammer's PvP, despite its less-than-spectacular controls.
Same here. WoW's fluid combat is second to none but I just didn't have fun pvping in wow, I did in Warhammer and Guild Wars, they are made for pvp and it shows. WoW has a lot of great things going for it but I wouldn't put pvp up there in that list.
I think any reasonable person woud agree that PvP is where Blizzard have lost the plot lately. I dont like the changes to PvE raiding personally, but the PvE raiding changes will not/have not hurt the overall success of WoW's unlike the changes to bg/s and Arenas.
Arena was initially very successfull, especially in seasons 1 and 2. Season 3 was also quite successful but we saw the introduction of personal ratings. This was to address the "welfare epics" of seasons 1 and 2. But since it was only on 2 items it wasn't a big deal.
Then season 4 hit. Tom "Kalgan" Chilton still unhappy that players could lose their way to top PvP "welfare" gear put ratings on almost everything, including the items purchased via bg honor! Players could however still purchase 4/5 s3 gear with arena points and the personal requirements for s3 shoulders and weapons were reduced. Class balance was an issue, warriors and rogues dominated the DPS. Druids and priests dominated the healers. A well played, fully s4 geared dreamstate druid was basically unkillable.
And then came Season 5. Why Blizzard didn't see the writing on the wall after s4 I dont know. Factor in that Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street had taken over from Jeffrey "Tigole" Kaplan as lead class dev, and was nowhere as good, we have the disaster called Season 5. Ridiculous class balance, personal ratings on the top gear, arena points required for the BLUE gear plus the fact that arenas were no longer new and shiny its obvious to see why it was WoW's greatest failure to date. Participation was down 65% from season 4, which was down from season 3. Basically only a fraction of the amount of people from s3 were doing arena in s5.
The problem with arena in seasons 4 and 5 is that is runs counter to EVERYTHING WoW has tried to do. WoW from the beginning tried, and succeeded, in lowering the barriers that stopped people playing mmo's. Even PvE raiding now has been radically re-designed to make everything more accessible. So why the changes to arena to make in inaccessible?
Well, Chilton's dreams of turning WoW into not just the biggest mmo out there but a huge E-Sport obviously clouded Blizzard's judgement. Ever since Dennis "Thresh" Fong won John Carmack (Doom and Quake) Ferrari in 1997 I've been hearing how E-Sports were going to be as big as regular sports. 12 years later and I'm still waiting. I've seen companies, gaming genres, tournaments come and go in that time. All had dreams of turning their game into something as like basketball or soccer. All failed. Computer games are a huge industy in itself and thats how it should be left.
Blizzard have already state they are already in the process of revamping battlergrounds. Ahhh, BG's, the red headed step child of Blizzard. They've been neglected and trivialised by Blizzard for Arena. At least in seasons 3 you could buy season 1 arena gear with bg honor. Same in season 4 with season 2 gear. But with WotLK bg's just had 2nd rate gear at an overpriced value. With deminishing returns removed from hk's people spend more time just running around than actually trying to win and complete the objective. AV is now an abject failure and shadow of its former self.
I doubt Blizzard will see sense and introduce an arena style system for BG's. Pre-BC the battlegrounds were never the problem, the old honor system was. In BC/WotLK the arena system isn't the problem, the arena is. Solution? Bring arena style ratings to bg's. The dev's have already stated they dont want to force 10-15 people together as a team to do rated bg's. There is little doubt that some hybrid system that tries to reward players playing to win, but keeping single queue as the only viable option will be implemented - if anything at all.
@Frying-pan: Thanks for a great post.
@Zorndorf: There is more to PvP than controls Zorn - and even though WoW has better controls WAR is very very close now. Take the example of collision so that tanks can be tanks and actually block a choke point. Or that the height axis actually works? In WoW every mage knows they can shoot spells through most objects (very few are actually solid) - this means that hit and run combat is much less complex in WoW since the engine does not update your position and LoS paths very often (everyone that auto-runs on Heigan knows the same
). The problem with the height axis also results in that a battle ground similar to Gates of Ekrund is not possible with the WoW engine (the whole map is based on small height differences and hide-and-seek aka LoS).
So you are right that the engine is important for PvP and WoW's engine has alot of limitations in PvP. And we have not even touched upon abilitiy composition for classes and DPS vs health (average time-to-kill).
I am not saying WAR is perfect (I have stopped playing it after all) - but the actual PvP is better than WoW's. WAR's problem is totally in the department of end-game design. It is buit on fights that are so large the engine cannot handle it (failure one), mixes PvP with PvE (failure 2) for gear etc, is not transparent in what YOU need to do/accomplish for your side to win (failure 3) and the city siege promotes RvE (realm vs environment) instead of PvP (failure 4). This is where WAR fails, not in the actual PvP skirmish design in itself.
Zorn: WAR's engine can still handle more players in one spot than WoW's so it is not that the engine is inheritantly bad. It cannot handle the WAR end-game design however (since all players on your server will end up in one spot) which is of course a massive failure for WAR.
And I logged on last night and did a few Tier 2 scenarios since WAR's PvP actually is really good Zorn
Have not done any Ulduar yet since I level my alt mage (finished Feralas last night!) Zorn. Seems like a good content patch though. They need to increase the rate of content release however (as I showed in a previous thread).
And the biggest content patch to date was the AQ patch Zorn. And if I am to be critical the patch lacked a 5-man dungeon - that was a great part of the Sunwell patch. They should continue with that tradition.