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SWTOR: does it have an Endgame?

OsmanthusOsmanthus Member UncommonPosts: 105

When I see the videos and read the faqs I get the feeling that Bioware may not be in touch with how (successful) MMO's work.

They keep talking about the "pillars" of MMO design (progression,exploration,combat) and how they are bringing a new "pillar" to the mix: "story". But the history of MMO's shows that purely story driven games fail.  It should be obvious .... once the story runs out, the game is over.  

So what happens is there is a huge rush of players the first few days, crashing the servers and what not.  Company has to spend extra money to avoid or cope with this problem by investing too much in servers.  A few weeks after the launch, the server populations drop to nothing, because of normal gamer fickleness, but also because many people finished the storyline and there is nothing left to do.  Subscriptions take a dive after the first month and the company is filing for bankruptcy to pay off their server investments.

The "pillar" Bioware has (apparently) not considered is the "Endgame".  I am not even sure they know what  "endgame" means  (and it seems like most game developers do not).    No doubt they think they know what it means, but since they themselves have spent careers writing and playing non-mmo games, they don't understand that with MMO's the "real game" starts at the *end* of the story.  90% of game-play is after characters are maximum level.  [I'm not going to try to explain exactly what an endgame is here, I assume most people here know]

It seems to me like Bioware is treating SWTOR like a the multiplayer aspect of its single-player games only instead of co-op over a LAN its over the internet instead.  If you every tried server play on NWN2 you see how offbase they are about multiplayer: dialogs are cutscenes and you are locked out of play while you read silly quest text. 

What do you think about it?

 

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Comments

  • SabradinSabradin Member Posts: 772

    good question i'd like to hear more from this

    they've already made it clear that it will opperate like a themepark and not a sandbox.. so that should give some hope

    Just when you think you have all the answers, I change the questions.

  • singsofdeathsingsofdeath Member UncommonPosts: 1,812

    It has been mentioned in an interview (or release or something), that TOR will likely feature RvR and Raiding in the end-game.

     

    Details about it have not been released, so it is difficult if not downright impossible to say anything for certain. The fact though, that BioWare have been in close contact with Mythic should give some clue to their RvR intentions.

     

    That's all I can say right now though. More information to come in the months ahead I'm sure.

  • alakramalakram Member UncommonPosts: 2,301

    Just a joke:

    Yes it has an end game. Once you finish all the quest is the end (of the) game.

    mmm... It looked more fun in my head. ;)



  • miagisanmiagisan Member Posts: 5,156
    Originally posted by singsofdeath


    It has been mentioned in an interview (or release or something), that TOR will likely feature RvR and Raiding in the end-game.
     
    Details about it have not been released, so it is difficult if not downright impossible to say anything for certain. The fact though, that BioWare have been in close contact with Mythic should give some clue to their RvR intentions.
     
    That's all I can say right now though. More information to come in the months ahead I'm sure.

     

    well also considering Mythic and Bioware are part of EA :P

    image

  • SomeOldBlokeSomeOldBloke Member UncommonPosts: 2,167

    I hope they have a different type of end game in addition to the usual raids, smaller instances and PvP. The majority of the other MMOs do this and if they take exactly the same approach it will be WoW with a Star Wars theme.  Gaming companies need to explore different approaches to end game as like many other, I find the journey a lot more interesting than the destination. EvEs open ended approach is by far the best method to keep people interested for long periods... unfortunatly I know longer enjoy space compbat so I no longer play it.

  • EumdazenEumdazen Member Posts: 25

    For starters... I don't believe that you are experienced enough in building games to even think that you can say that "BioWare" has forgotten a pillar... considering the game is not out, and also considering BioWare's notorious secrecy. The point of a Star Wars game is to highlight everything that was exciting in the movies.... since that is where it all began. The movies had all of those pillars. Though you most likely base all of your MMO experience on WOW like most of the people who think they are hardcore because they have played that trash, you have to remember one thing. ENDGAME content would not be an issue if it wasn't for WOW. Everquest was probably the best MMO overall (when considering game dynamics), and yes you can throw your bit around at how WOW has millions of subscribers and blah blah blah, but EQ had it all before WOW...and it was not an easy game! WOW made it too easy to level, and then it made it too easy to raid, and then it made it so 10 year old players could understand the game... When BLizzard "Dumbed down" the video game we were subsequently forced into a future of crappy games all trying to be like WOW... I don't know about you, but most CEO's don't wish to be a retarded half-brother....If you look, there have pretty much been two really succesful MMO's (EQ and WOW) *not counting UO and such* SWG was apparently good until SOE tried to be like WOW and make the game easy (fail). AOC was released too early because they are popping MMO's out like hot cakes because of competition with WOW. Warhammer is just piss-poor in all respects other than PVP. Because all of these companies are making easy, flashy games trying to compete with WOW they forget the depth at which EQ ran, and successful games like EQ ran. VSOH did basically the same thing as AOC.

     

    I hate to Rant, but there are two types of MMO's

    Hard MMO's that have it all (EQ) and easy MMO's that have it all (WOW)

    Everything else is just crap to make money. I don't believe BioWare is ok with delivering crap.

  • DistasteDistaste Member UncommonPosts: 665
    Originally posted by Sabradin


    good question i'd like to hear more from this
    they've already made it clear that it will opperate like a themepark and not a sandbox.. so that should give some hope

     

    I don't get what you're going for here. In a Themepark you ride all the same rides over and over again hoping that they add a new ride. In a sandbox you can move from thempark to themepark  or themepark to waterpark or themepark to car dealership. So why would it being themepark give hope for endgame? I think a good compromise is themeparked leveling and sandboxed endgame since the WoW generation can't grasp the sandbox thing from "level" 1.

    As for SWTOR the endgame will be limited.  As you mentioned they have steered away from sandboxed and also mentioned crafting as not being heroic so that rules out running a business, a crafter economy, etc. So that leaves questing, which unless it gives major rewards/benefits will be ignored much like any quest you have after you hit level cap. There is raiding but I believe they have stated they don't want to have single bosses since that isn't heroic but rather TONS of enemies so trash waves of Hyjal /snooze. And RvR/PvP but they are already messing that up since they plan on having realm exclusive classes.  So that means tons of whining about XXXXX class, Nerf Cycles, and imbalanced sides.

    I hope they learn from the epic failure of WAR (IE don't do ANYTHING they did...but a las we alredy have realm exclusive classes) if they choose to do RvR and I pray they learn from WoW if they intend to do raiding. Other than that the game looks to be just the story line you create and once you reach the end thats it...just the same boring raids and horrible messed up RvR of other games.

  • demalusdemalus Member Posts: 401

     I know that one thing they've said is that they want players to basically reroll.

    Once you beat it, play as another character.  No, they didn't say "The endgame is rerolling," but they did mention it as one way of prolonging the game. 

    ______________________
    Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.

  • kftauruskftaurus Member UncommonPosts: 36
    Originally posted by Eumdazen

    "Everything else is just crap to make money. I don't believe BioWare is ok with delivering crap."

    Very good point there! Bioware is good at putting out games that aren't bad at all. It will be very interesting to see how this one turns out as it could be a nice break from the traditional cookie cutter fantasy game. Also, Star Wars is always a good time. Just going to have to wait and see, most everything I see posted on this game is speculation at this point or stuff misquoted or taken out of context. Op raises a good point about how story will be handled via cutscenes while talking to an npc or the standard mmo way. I do disagree with the statement that, "90% of game-play is after characters are maximum level." The only reason I do is to me it depends on how you play the game and what you are looking for in a game, if you take your time, enjoy the character development and story then the raising of levels til cap are more important, and at the end of the day most endgame is just doing the same things over and over again ie: dungeons, gear runs, pvp, crafting for money, etc... But the build up I guess, to me at least, is one of the best parts.

    Playing:Vanguard, Firefall
    Waiting for: TESO

  • SabradinSabradin Member Posts: 772

    I want companies to be out there to make money.  If they make the most money that means that they have delivered what people want most.

    If they're not trying to make the most money, then they're not trying their hardest.

    But you can't have blind greed either, otherwise you will be focusing too much on the $ and not enough of what people want.

    -- MMOs are funny though.

    Because the majority of people have clearly said that WoW is their preferred choice, and at the same time, the majority of people don't want to grind.  And yet the majority of people won't play a grind-less mmo.

    Strangely enough this suggests that people want to compete over who is willing to put themself through more begruding hell.

    Which seems right, when you consider the mind games people play consantly.  Everyone's in hell, can you take the heat?

    Just when you think you have all the answers, I change the questions.

  • Spaceweed10Spaceweed10 Member Posts: 625
    Originally posted by Osmanthus


    When I see the videos and read the faqs I get the feeling that Bioware may not be in touch with how (successful) MMO's work.
    They keep talking about the "pillars" of MMO design (progression,exploration,combat) and how they are bringing a new "pillar" to the mix: "story". But the history of MMO's shows that purely story driven games fail.  It should be obvious .... once the story runs out, the game is over.  
    So what happens is there is a huge rush of players the first few days, crashing the servers and what not.  Company has to spend extra money to avoid or cope with this problem by investing too much in servers.  A few weeks after the launch, the server populations drop to nothing, because of normal gamer fickleness, but also because many people finished the storyline and there is nothing left to do.  Subscriptions take a dive after the first month and the company is filing for bankruptcy to pay off their server investments.
    The "pillar" Bioware has (apparently) not considered is the "Endgame".  I am not even sure they know what  "endgame" means  (and it seems like most game developers do not).    No doubt they think they know what it means, but since they themselves have spent careers writing and playing non-mmo games, they don't understand that with MMO's the "real game" starts at the *end* of the story.  90% of game-play is after characters are maximum level.  [I'm not going to try to explain exactly what an endgame is here, I assume most people here know]
    It seems to me like Bioware is treating SWTOR like a the multiplayer aspect of its single-player games only instead of co-op over a LAN its over the internet instead.  If you every tried server play on NWN2 you see how offbase they are about multiplayer: dialogs are cutscenes and you are locked out of play while you read silly quest text. 
    What do you think about it?
     

     

    You have no idea what Bioware have planned for the game as far as this is concerned.  No one does because details haven't been released about it.

    Thread is moot.

  • Cody1174Cody1174 Member Posts: 271

    First off this game can tank and Bioware will be just fine, especially with EA behind them now. Yea it will hurt, but 800k+ retail sales and 200k monthly subs for 4 months will be guaranteed and thats enough to keep them close to breaking even. 

    Secondly, the professionalism shown so far by Bioware gives me the impression they have all their ducks in a row and are covering endgame.

    Lastly, even if the endgame is lacking, this will be the game people will love to make multiple alt characters.

     

     

  • KhaunsharKhaunshar Member UncommonPosts: 349

    First of all, I dont give a F about professionalism. Professionalism gave us WAR and AoC. Professionalism means sugarcoating to the brink of outright lying. Professionalism means CorpSpeak and inane talk. And most of all, silence when there are problems.

    Rerolling and Re-Playing as endgame will not work. While some games currently make their leftover fanbase do exactly that, those are small niche games like LotRO and AOC. More than 2 entire playthroughs are pushing it... and especially if Bioware outright states there is no endgame as such.

    Most MMO-Players I have encountered stop playing these games as soon as they see a definite end to them. Why reroll if there is no point to it?

    Especially in a story-driven solo MMORPG. Without any need to socialize, without any way to brag, to argue, to talk, to interact (no crafting etc.), people wont be happy just trading useless items back and forth, especially if there is no gameplay that needs them.

  • Cody1174Cody1174 Member Posts: 271
    Originally posted by Khaunshar


    First of all, I dont give a F about professionalism. Professionalism gave us WAR and AoC. Professionalism means sugarcoating to the brink of outright lying. Professionalism means CorpSpeak and inane talk. And most of all, silence when there are problems.
    Rerolling and Re-Playing as endgame will not work. While some games currently make their leftover fanbase do exactly that, those are small niche games like LotRO and AOC. More than 2 entire playthroughs are pushing it... and especially if Bioware outright states there is no endgame as such.
    Most MMO-Players I have encountered stop playing these games as soon as they see a definite end to them. Why reroll if there is no point to it?
    Especially in a story-driven solo MMORPG. Without any need to socialize, without any way to brag, to argue, to talk, to interact (no crafting etc.), people wont be happy just trading useless items back and forth, especially if there is no gameplay that needs them.

    I am a big endgame player, but I have learned to enjoy leveling. Maybe its me getting older 27 now, but I sometimes slow down and enjoy new classes. This game has alot of story in it if you havent read. MMORPGs aren't all about getting to max level and raiding and pvping. Powerleveling and not looking back is a waste of a story rich game like this. I suggest you play another game if you can not enjoy the story. Players often speed to max level and ruin the game experience and they are stuck on these forums bitching about endgame. Slow down and enjoy the game a bit.

  • SenadinaSenadina Member UncommonPosts: 896

    I have a theory here. Micro-transactions have been mentioned in regard to TOR. I believe there will be mini-content bundles( for want of a better phrase), that you will be able to purchase for small amounts of cash. Not true expansions, but contin uing story content to prolong the gaming experience. Just a wild theory.

    image
  • KenorvKenorv Member Posts: 112

    Count me in as someone that's tired of the current "endgame" format in MMORPGs. All you do is grind, grind, grind, just to end up running the same instances in the exact same way over and over again until you're pretty much on autopilot. BORING.

    If Bioware is looking to create a new model then I'm all for it. What ever model that they plan on using can't possibly be any worse than the current model. I applaud them for trying something different instead of using the same cookie cutter model that's led to so many boring MMORPGs.

  • OptiqueMarquisOptiqueMarquis Member UncommonPosts: 860

    I will quote Raph Koster here, in the Laws of Online World Design:

    "Storytelling versus simulation

    If you write a static story (or indeed include any static element) in your game, everyone in the world will know how it ends in a matter of days. Mathematically, it is not possible for a design team to create stories fast enough to supply everyone playing. This is the traditional approach to this sort of game nonetheless. You can try a sim-style game which doesn't supply stories but instead supplies freedom to make them. This is a lot harder and arguably has never been done successfully."

    This is why people keep asking for content in todays MMOs - developers cannot add quests fast enough and there the themepark system does not provide the players with the tools and encouregement to create their own content.

    I am looking forward to see how BW will tackle this issue myself.

  • warppwarpp Member Posts: 258
    Originally posted by Eumdazen


    For starters... I don't believe that you are experienced enough in building games to even think that you can say that "BioWare" has forgotten a pillar... considering the game is not out, and also considering BioWare's notorious secrecy. The point of a Star Wars game is to highlight everything that was exciting in the movies.... since that is where it all began. The movies had all of those pillars. Though you most likely base all of your MMO experience on WOW like most of the people who think they are hardcore because they have played that trash, you have to remember one thing. ENDGAME content would not be an issue if it wasn't for WOW. Everquest was probably the best MMO overall (when considering game dynamics), and yes you can throw your bit around at how WOW has millions of subscribers and blah blah blah, but EQ had it all before WOW...and it was not an easy game! WOW made it too easy to level, and then it made it too easy to raid, and then it made it so 10 year old players could understand the game... When BLizzard "Dumbed down" the video game we were subsequently forced into a future of crappy games all trying to be like WOW... I don't know about you, but most CEO's don't wish to be a retarded half-brother....If you look, there have pretty much been two really succesful MMO's (EQ and WOW) *not counting UO and such* SWG was apparently good until SOE tried to be like WOW and make the game easy (fail). AOC was released too early because they are popping MMO's out like hot cakes because of competition with WOW. Warhammer is just piss-poor in all respects other than PVP. Because all of these companies are making easy, flashy games trying to compete with WOW they forget the depth at which EQ ran, and successful games like EQ ran. VSOH did basically the same thing as AOC.
     
    I hate to Rant, but there are two types of MMO's
    Hard MMO's that have it all (EQ) and easy MMO's that have it all (WOW)
    Everything else is just crap to make money. I don't believe BioWare is ok with delivering crap.

    I agree with most of your post especially with me being an 6 year EQ1 vet but saying that VSOH did the same thing as AOC is total bull shit and proves you don't know what the hell you are talking about when it comes to VSOH.

    VSOH is closer to EQ1 than any other mmorpg to date and that includes EQ2. I would like to read on what you think VSOH did which AOC done.

     

    Jah Rasta For I.
    The Wicked Shall Fall..





    http://www.ethnic2020.com/images/Ebay/black-jesus.jpg

  • KenorvKenorv Member Posts: 112
    Originally posted by Troneas


    I will quote Raph Koster here, in the Laws of Online World Design:
    "Storytelling versus simulation

    If you write a static story (or indeed include any static element) in your game, everyone in the world will know how it ends in a matter of days. Mathematically, it is not possible for a design team to create stories fast enough to supply everyone playing. This is the traditional approach to this sort of game nonetheless. You can try a sim-style game which doesn't supply stories but instead supplies freedom to make them. This is a lot harder and arguably has never been done successfully."

    This is why people keep asking for content in todays MMOs - developers cannot add quests fast enough and there the themepark system does not provide the players with the tools and encouregement to create their own content.
    I am looking forward to see how BW will tackle this issue myself.

     

    BW might succeed and then again they might fail but either way, I give them a lot of credit for trying to create a different model instead of using the same old boring model that people keep complaining about.

  • OptiqueMarquisOptiqueMarquis Member UncommonPosts: 860
    Originally posted by Kenorv

    Originally posted by Troneas


    I will quote Raph Koster here, in the Laws of Online World Design:
    "Storytelling versus simulation

    If you write a static story (or indeed include any static element) in your game, everyone in the world will know how it ends in a matter of days. Mathematically, it is not possible for a design team to create stories fast enough to supply everyone playing. This is the traditional approach to this sort of game nonetheless. You can try a sim-style game which doesn't supply stories but instead supplies freedom to make them. This is a lot harder and arguably has never been done successfully."

    This is why people keep asking for content in todays MMOs - developers cannot add quests fast enough and there the themepark system does not provide the players with the tools and encouregement to create their own content.
    I am looking forward to see how BW will tackle this issue myself.

     

    BW might succeed and then again they might fail but either way, I give them a lot of credit for trying to create a different model instead of using the same old boring model that people keep complaining about.



     

    not everyone complaints about the same old boring model. in fact, people like moaky07 believe that model to be the only acceptable model for, ironically, MMORPGs.

  • AbrahmmAbrahmm Member Posts: 2,448
    Originally posted by Troneas


    I will quote Raph Koster here, in the Laws of Online World Design:
    "Storytelling versus simulation

    If you write a static story (or indeed include any static element) in your game, everyone in the world will know how it ends in a matter of days. Mathematically, it is not possible for a design team to create stories fast enough to supply everyone playing. This is the traditional approach to this sort of game nonetheless. You can try a sim-style game which doesn't supply stories but instead supplies freedom to make them. This is a lot harder and arguably has never been done successfully."

    This is why people keep asking for content in todays MMOs - developers cannot add quests fast enough and there the themepark system does not provide the players with the tools and encouregement to create their own content.
    I am looking forward to see how BW will tackle this issue myself.

     

    That's a nice quote and pretty true. I think game developers need to not only worry about adding content, which seems to be the only thing they focus on(that and balancing classes), but also providing tools for people to make their own content, and make the dev created content optional. I think this is the absolute best way to go because it is a great compromise. Imagine player driven content features of SWG with great story/quest lines like the original KotOR? That would be a brilliant game, because you could enjoy the story they tell, and then make your own when you are done. I'd hope Bioware would go with some sort of system like this, and I really hope they avoid the "carrot on a stick" gear treadmill that is popular today. I really don't want to play another of those games.

    Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
    Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
    Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
    Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
    Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.

  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by Abrahmm

    Originally posted by Troneas


    I will quote Raph Koster here, in the Laws of Online World Design:
    "Storytelling versus simulation

    If you write a static story (or indeed include any static element) in your game, everyone in the world will know how it ends in a matter of days. Mathematically, it is not possible for a design team to create stories fast enough to supply everyone playing. This is the traditional approach to this sort of game nonetheless. You can try a sim-style game which doesn't supply stories but instead supplies freedom to make them. This is a lot harder and arguably has never been done successfully."

    This is why people keep asking for content in todays MMOs - developers cannot add quests fast enough and there the themepark system does not provide the players with the tools and encouregement to create their own content.
    I am looking forward to see how BW will tackle this issue myself.

     

    That's a nice quote and pretty true. I think game developers need to not only worry about adding content, which seems to be the only thing they focus on(that and balancing classes), but also providing tools for people to make their own content, and make the dev created content optional. I think this is the absolute best way to go because it is a great compromise. Imagine player driven content features of SWG with great story/quest lines like the original KotOR? That would be a brilliant game, because you could enjoy the story they tell, and then make your own when you are done. I'd hope Bioware would go with some sort of system like this, and I really hope they avoid the "carrot on a stick" gear treadmill that is popular today. I really don't want to play another of those games.

     

         This is why in my opinion Koster is EPIC Fail..  What he says has merit, BUT like most everything else he doesn't listen or understand others when addressed  his ideas.. A MMO that works on a storyline design restricts the play of customers as it's more linear, then open.. WoW is the largest thempark MMO in the world.. YES, Devs have to spend hours creating more end game content to keep it going.. EQ1 did this for 10 years..

         However, here is what Mr Koster refuses to understand.. When you design a sandbox type of game, and try to make it a simulation as he explains it, you have to design rules and boundaries as to what people can, and can not do..  You'll find no better simulation example then real life..  Real life is a sandbox but without rules and regulations all hell breaks loose.. If you wish to create a sandbox game that is to survive you'll end up spending MORE time and energy constantly adding and changing the rules, then just adding more storyline content..

         This is why SWG had such a hard time getting anything fixed or added., and why it ran like a bike with a flat tire..  They didn't have the manpower and skills to keep up with making the proper changes, and fix all the bugs.. Rather is be a MMO or real life, people will always try to find ways to exploit it and gain an advantage over others.. This is why in life we have a legal system that is ever changing.. The staff required to design and maintain a sandbox MMO would be more trouble then it's worth..

         KOSTER.. Your skils and ideas are epic fail... He's a legend in his own mind, like many of the SWG devs of the past..  So in conclusion, it takes less staff and energy to maintain a game that goes from point A to point B, then to sandbox it and let everyone go everywhere.. If you still don't understand what I'm saying, lets give you an example you might grasp..   If you are incharge of grade school recess and have 30 kids in the playground.. It's MUCH easier to supervise them all if you only allow them to go down the slide in turn.. IF you cut them all loose and let them do whatever they want, You'll have chaos unless you get more help..  Like I said.. Koster doesn't seem to understand that concept..  I seriously doubt that any MMO will try a pure sandbox again, because it's just requires too many resources..

  • OptiqueMarquisOptiqueMarquis Member UncommonPosts: 860
    Originally posted by Rydeson


     
    KOSTER.. Your skils and ideas are epic fail... He's a legend in his own mind, like many of the SWG devs of the past..  So in conclusion, it takes less staff and energy to maintain a game that goes from point A to point B, then to sandbox it and let everyone go everywhere.. If you still don't understand what I'm saying, lets give you an example you might grasp..   If you are incharge of grade school recess and have 30 kids in the playground.. It's MUCH easier to supervise them all if you only allow them to go down the slide in turn.. IF you cut them all loose and let them do whatever they want, You'll have chaos unless you get more help..  Like I said.. Koster doesn't seem to understand that concept..  I seriously doubt that any MMO will try a pure sandbox again, because it's just requires too many resources..



     

    you do realise you are saying precisely what koster has stated in his rule of online game design?

    as a school kid you would much rather be let loose and find the games you want to play, because it will give you liberty and responsibility, rather than being taken by the teachers hand to game A, and then, along with all the group, to game B and so on and so forth... but you are afraid that, "unsupervised" you will fall down and break your nose.

    i will quote koster again for you:

    "You can try a sim-style game which doesn't supply stories but instead supplies freedom to make them. This is a lot harder and arguably has never been done successfully."

    and i will quote you:

    "It's MUCH easier to supervise them all if you only allow them to go down the slide in turn.. IF you cut them all loose and let them do whatever they want, You'll have chaos unless you get more help.. "

    in the rest of your post, you merely elaborated as to why you think it would be a lot harder to make a successful sandbox, as koster said.

  • jaxsundanejaxsundane Member Posts: 2,776
    Originally posted by Osmanthus


    When I see the videos and read the faqs I get the feeling that Bioware may not be in touch with how (successful) MMO's work.
    They keep talking about the "pillars" of MMO design (progression,exploration,combat) and how they are bringing a new "pillar" to the mix: "story". But the history of MMO's shows that purely story driven games fail.  It should be obvious .... once the story runs out, the game is over.  
    So what happens is there is a huge rush of players the first few days, crashing the servers and what not.  Company has to spend extra money to avoid or cope with this problem by investing too much in servers.  A few weeks after the launch, the server populations drop to nothing, because of normal gamer fickleness, but also because many people finished the storyline and there is nothing left to do.  Subscriptions take a dive after the first month and the company is filing for bankruptcy to pay off their server investments.
    The "pillar" Bioware has (apparently) not considered is the "Endgame".  I am not even sure they know what  "endgame" means  (and it seems like most game developers do not).    No doubt they think they know what it means, but since they themselves have spent careers writing and playing non-mmo games, they don't understand that with MMO's the "real game" starts at the *end* of the story.  90% of game-play is after characters are maximum level.  [I'm not going to try to explain exactly what an endgame is here, I assume most people here know]
    It seems to me like Bioware is treating SWTOR like a the multiplayer aspect of its single-player games only instead of co-op over a LAN its over the internet instead.  If you every tried server play on NWN2 you see how offbase they are about multiplayer: dialogs are cutscenes and you are locked out of play while you read silly quest text. 
    What do you think about it?
     



     

    It's a well thought out post but I for my own taste disagree with the overall sentiment about this "endgame" pillar.I think most people who may post on this site might follow a path like that where mmo's are concerned but again "we" are not the average gamer and for the time I have spent playing the mmos I chose I have not always(more often than not) reached "endgame".

    I don't know if the average player really spends "90%" of their play time after max.To make a succesful game you need to make certain your game can hold anyone who will play for the early parts because most people who don't play mmo's do not spend the time we spend playing games and most of them never will.

    So I think that "story" in fact is going to be a good addition to mmo's.for here and now LOTRO has the strongest storytelling as I see it and I play that game only the second game I ever maxed out and that is actually the strongest factor the story that was added that made me feel much more part of the world than coh,or wow.

    but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....

  • AnubisanAnubisan Member UncommonPosts: 1,798

    As far as I can tell, Bioware does their homework on any project they undertake. I am sure they are very seriously considering the endgame element of TOR.

    The way I forsee it unfolding is:

    - A long and dynamic storyling that changes as you play based upon many moral choices along the way. If this is the case, every time you play through the game could be very different as long as you don't make the same choices over and over again. This will motivate players to re-roll characters in different ways to see the other ways things can unfold.

    - An end-game raiding system that will probably resemble WoW (hopefully pre-WOTLK so its not so friggin easy).

    - An RvR system that will probably resemble either DAOC or WAR (due to their close relationship with Mythic as another EA company). Hopefully it will be more like DAOC's open-world RvR than WAR!

    - Hopefully enough land and content that it will take a very long time to 'see it all'.

     

     This is of course purely conjecture considering the very little information that Bioware has released thus far. Only time will tell... 

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