This is like the second thread with the same subject. Since most of you are unaware that Star Wars is Good VS Evil. Allow me to enlighten you further.
Strait from Wikipedia "The six films feature the Jedi, who use the Force for good, and the Sith, who use the dark side for evil in an attempt to take over the galaxy"
Wookieepedia "College literature professors have remarked that the Star Wars saga, with its struggle between good and evil, democracy and empire, can be considered a national epic for the United States"
I don't see Neutral. I heard SWG has it. Maybe you guys could go play that.
edit: And whats the problem with Good Vs Evil. Most films and games are revolved around this. Get over it.
and playing games isint? go ask any hot chick what they think about people playing games at your age and se what they say:P
Lol, mmkay. Its no more childish than paying to watch grown men slap each other on the ass while chasing around a leather ball. Entertainment is entertainment, and arbitrarily labeling gaming as 'childish' indicates a fair amount of ignorance regarding the adult-oriented titles on the market and the way the hobby has expanded to include a large cross section of age brackets.
To the OP's point, I think you are barking up the wrong tree if you want narrative complexity and/or sophisticated adult themes and you're looking at Star Wars. Its always been for kids, George Lucas himself has said so, and what few mature SW stories do exist are buried in the geek obscurity of the Expanded Universe and don't have much mainstream commercial appeal (i.e. Bioware wouldn't be making as much money by catering to them).
SW is lightsabers, cool spaceships, simple-minded morality tales and plots borrowed from older, better works, all of which are rolled together under high production values and fondly remembered by people who were exposed to it at a young age. Don't waste your time reading anything else into it.
and playing games isint? go ask any hot chick what they think about people playing games at your age and se what they say:P
Lol, mmkay. Its no more childish than paying to watch grown men slap each other on the ass while chasing around a leather ball. Entertainment is entertainment, and arbitrarily labeling gaming as 'childish' indicates a fair amount of ignorance regarding the adult-oriented titles on the market and the way the hobby has expanded to include a large cross section of age brackets.
To the OP's point, I think you are barking up the wrong tree if you want narrative complexity and/or sophisticated adult themes and you're looking at Star Wars. Its always been for kids, George Lucas himself has said so, and what few mature SW stories do exist are buried in the geek obscurity of the Expanded Universe and don't have much mainstream commercial appeal (i.e. Bioware wouldn't be making as much money by catering to them).
SW is lightsabers, cool spaceships, simple-minded morality tales and plots borrowed from older, better works, all of which are rolled together under high production values and fondly remembered by people who were exposed to it at a young age. Don't waste your time reading anything else into it.
Well, not really. Your enemy has goals different than yours and your job is to prevent him from reaching them. That's how professional soldiers think. They leave propaganda "evil enemy" bullcrap behind. SW is as far away from that example as possible although it contradicts itself many times. Like Jedi Mind trick is basically a breaking of someone's will against his wish, like using Sodium Penthate on a POW. Or extracting information from captured Sith/Empire officers. Theres not always a Jedi around right? So how do they do it? Ask nicely? C'mon... Then You have worlds that no longer want to be under Republic authority. What about them? Are they evil separatists all of the sudden? Maybe they hate that Republic is corrupted, incapable of making any decisions and bureautically overblown raking in untold billions of credits for nothing. Oh, sorry they are supporting a covent of warrior monks who answer only to themselves, each one of them a walking battalion of troops and don't pay any taxes... SW is a great IP but it stopped evolving after RotJ and all they added is gadgets, vague plots, few throw away characters and a mass of merchandise.
For the most part I agree. Anyone who thinks Star Wars was simply "Good vs. Evil" never really understood the plot, or is to ignorant to notice it.
No, the Neutrals were those who could not pick a side. What do you believe good and evil means. This is not a damn religious discussion. Which seems to be the way you see good and evil.
Good and Evil is completely matter of opinion. Meaning not everybody sees eye to eye on a subject therefor the opposing side is seen as evil.
Good: morally admirable
Evil: morally objectionable behavior
Neutrals are just a good or evil player without balls. The only reason I can see people so pissy about not being able to be Neutral or Neutral Bounty Hunters is seen as strictly role playing. I'm going to quote another guy from some thread a few lines down.
Well if old Georgie wants my money and i presume people's who loved SW back in the day who are adults now (and not 12 year olds) he has to up his game, simple as that.
I was faintly expecting that after KOTOR, where BioWare really shown the potential in this franchise. Of course they didnt escape oversimplification (just because Jedi didnt obey Jedi Council doesnt mean they should turn into Sith overlords), but were close to proper adult storyline in SW universe.
Well if old Georgie wants my money and i presume people's who loved SW back in the day who are adults now (and not 12 year olds) he has to up his game, simple as that. I was faintly expecting that after KOTOR, where BioWare really shown the potential in this franchise. Of course they didnt escape oversimplification (just because Jedi didnt obey Jedi Council doesnt mean they should turn into Sith overlords), but were close to proper adult storyline in SW universe.
You obviously don't get it. Games are getting less and less complex as far as the MMO world goes. Remember when the SWG world growth was about crafting, getting crafted gear etc. Now it's instances "heroics" to be exact. They are not going to "up" it to meet your expectations. Complexidy can turn off a lot of people ( I enjoy complexidy but can live with the simple fact that I can enjoy a game without it). Just because your older does not mean everything should meet your expectations. Only children think that way.
Really this entire thread and conversation is stupid. How do you know how complex it will be? You can't judge the game from released information. Shit changes, most of what you see now could be changed tomorrow.
Well if old Georgie wants my money and i presume people's who loved SW back in the day who are adults now (and not 12 year olds) he has to up his game, simple as that. I was faintly expecting that after KOTOR, where BioWare really shown the potential in this franchise. Of course they didnt escape oversimplification (just because Jedi didnt obey Jedi Council doesnt mean they should turn into Sith overlords), but were close to proper adult storyline in SW universe.
Well, that's the thing. He doesn't want your money, unless you have kids (which are his primary marketing demographic). He never intended SW to be for adults. He even fought the co-writers and director of Empire Strikes Back (Leigh Brackett, Lawrence Kadsan, and Irvin Kershner) because he felt they were making it too dark for kids. This is documented in Dale Pollock's excellent biography called Skywalking, though unfortunately it is now out of print.
SW just refuses to grow up. Sure it has a few things that appeal to adults, in much the same vein that Toy Story, Monsters Inc, and Wall-E can simultaneously appeal to adults and kids, but take one look at all of the SW products released in the last few years and find me one that isn't kid friendly. The closest you'll come is the Legacy comic series and Karen Traviss' Republic Commando novels, neither of which sell nearly as well as the rest of the franchise.
Han Solo struggled with his own inner termoil over what was the right thing to do, and he would never have considered himself "Good."
In the recently released "Force Unleashed" game agent Starkiller had a lot of internal conflict over what he should do and many times he did what wouldn't be considered a "Good" jedi thing, but he ultimately wound up on the side of the Jedi.
The story of Star Wars is about shades of grey, and finding your path that you consider right through your own moral code, every character in every story they tell has its own moral code. Even the Jedi code seems to change a bit throughout the 10,000 years we've seen the Jedi order in exsistance. Sometimes they're a lot more agressive and sometimes they're extremely passive, but both are still "Good."
With these extreme moral doctrine changes one can't help but realize that the story is entirely about being true to yourself.
Star Wars is not JUST about Good Vs. Evil. Han Solo struggled with his own inner termoil over what was the right thing to do, and he would never have considered himself "Good." In the recently released "Force Unleashed" game agent Starkiller had a lot of internal conflict over what he should do and many times he did what wouldn't be considered a "Good" jedi thing, but he ultimately wound up on the side of the Jedi. The story of Star Wars is about shades of grey, and finding your path that you consider right through your own moral code, every character in every story they tell has its own moral code. Even the Jedi code seems to change a bit throughout the 10,000 years we've seen the Jedi order in exsistance. Sometimes they're a lot more agressive and sometimes they're extremely passive, but both are still "Good." With these extreme moral doctrine changes one can't help but realize that the story is entirely about being true to yourself.
Solo becomes a chief figure in the Alliance. As stated on wikipedia. He was neutral but ultimatly chose a side. It would be up to him to see that side as good or evil. Even though most signs point to the rebelion being good. Even though the story is about being true to yourself that still does not deny the fact that it's Good Vs Evil. Light Jedi, Dark Jedi, Interseting choice of words for the jedi discription you think?
Furthermore does anybody even unerstand how the first 2 KOTOR games worked? You had a line that decided if you was good neutral or evil. While in the end you had to make either a good or evil choice. Either way you ended up going from neutral to getting involved.
Well if old Georgie wants my money and i presume people's who loved SW back in the day who are adults now (and not 12 year olds) he has to up his game, simple as that. I was faintly expecting that after KOTOR, where BioWare really shown the potential in this franchise. Of course they didnt escape oversimplification (just because Jedi didnt obey Jedi Council doesnt mean they should turn into Sith overlords), but were close to proper adult storyline in SW universe.
This statement assumes that using a 'good and evil' premise is somehow 'non-grown-up' when the concept is much deeper than you realize.
Lucas sifted through mounds of sacred text, myth and legend from thousands of years of human experience to develop his archetypical 'myth'. By following the guidance of Joseph Campbell, esteemed expert on human mythology, he defined the star wars lore around basic human morality concepts which developed from the dawn of human civilization. The overwhelming theme among all human mythologies, legends and sacred texts is a struggle between good and evil. Sometimes it is the hero determining what is good and what is evil, but it is still that duality that defines human mythology. Hardly a 'childish' story but rather a deep understanding of human mythology.
Concepts where the lines between good and evil are 'greyed' represent an aspect of human reality, not human mythology. To make Star War a comment on human reality would be a sin when the entire object is to emulate human mythology.
So, if you are worried about feeling 'childish' playing a good vs. evil game, try 'growing up' and learning about the deep history of human mythology, a highly academic and intellectual pursuit.
I mean, just listen to any George Lucas commentary on the films and you will see why good vs. evil is intractable from Star Wars lore.
As another person said, look to Blade Runner as a commentary on human reality set in the future, look to Star Wars as an emulation of human mythology in a futuristic setting.
Anyway on the discussion of Han Solo. Yes, he chose a side, but for a while he was neutral. Why is it then, that our characters in game have to be at a point where they have chosen a side? Why can't we start out as neutral, or stay neutral until WE feel fit to join a side. Why are we FORCED to join a side if we don't want to at that particular time?
I'll never understand people's desire to limit their choices in games. Blows my mind. Even if the choice doesn't effect you in any way, you should still want the option, if not for yourself, than for the other people that enjoy it.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Good is a point of view. I said this to you earlier. Anyway on the discussion of Han Solo. Yes, he chose a side, but for a while he was neutral. Why is it then, that our characters in game have to be at a point where they have chosen a side? Why can't we start out as neutral, or stay neutral until WE feel fit to join a side. Why are we FORCED to join a side if we don't want to at that particular time? Because this is not burger king. You can't have it your way. I'll never understand people's desire to limit their choices in games. Blows my mind. Even if the choice doesn't effect you in any way, you should still want the option, if not for yourself, than for the other people that enjoy it. I'll never understand why people think every game should be how they want it. Nobody is saying they want less of a choice. I think some of us just understand that's how they chose to go with it. And no crying, bitching or forum posting will change that. Hopefully you will come to understand neutral is a useless feature with little to no storyline other then your confused on your choices. Oh such a great story line /sarcasm
Good is a point of view. I said this to you earlier. Missed it. Anyway on the discussion of Han Solo. Yes, he chose a side, but for a while he was neutral. Why is it then, that our characters in game have to be at a point where they have chosen a side? Why can't we start out as neutral, or stay neutral until WE feel fit to join a side. Why are we FORCED to join a side if we don't want to at that particular time? Because this is not burger king. You can't have it your way. No valid counter argument? I'll never understand people's desire to limit their choices in games. Blows my mind. Even if the choice doesn't effect you in any way, you should still want the option, if not for yourself, than for the other people that enjoy it. I'll never understand why people think every game should be how they want it. Nobody is saying they want less of a choice. I think some of us just understand that's how they chose to go with it. And no crying, bitching or forum posting will change that. Hopefully you will come to understand neutral is a useless feature with little to no storyline other then your confused on your choices. Oh such a great story line /sarcasm Wow, having a neutral choice actually confuses you? Now I just feel bad. I'm sorry you lack the imagination to understand how others may find joy, and make their own story, with a neutral option. And you say I want it MY way? I don't even like playing neutral, but I understand it's purpose, that other people like it, and that it adds to a game.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Let's just hope Jedi's get the option to alter the 'frequentic pollarity chromatization' (or whatever) of that light saber to make it turn red after smacking some face paint on and killing our ingame parents to actually become Sith (and the other way around).
A lot comes down on whether they will implement that side switching idea. The difference between; having tough and interesting choices to make at every turn and in that sense feeling in controll of your char's life and future, or just going with the flow of your specified role's storyline.
If they do manage to pull this side switching off, that might mean you are able to play a 'chaotic' char, switching from good to bad and back to good again when it suits you. In that scenerio you don't need a fixed neutral faction. I hope it will be something like that.
Good is a point of view. I said this to you earlier. Missed it. Anyway on the discussion of Han Solo. Yes, he chose a side, but for a while he was neutral. Why is it then, that our characters in game have to be at a point where they have chosen a side? Why can't we start out as neutral, or stay neutral until WE feel fit to join a side. Why are we FORCED to join a side if we don't want to at that particular time? Because this is not burger king. You can't have it your way. No valid counter argument? What was so Valid about having it your way? I'll never understand people's desire to limit their choices in games. Blows my mind. Even if the choice doesn't effect you in any way, you should still want the option, if not for yourself, than for the other people that enjoy it. I'll never understand why people think every game should be how they want it. Nobody is saying they want less of a choice. I think some of us just understand that's how they chose to go with it. And no crying, bitching or forum posting will change that. Hopefully you will come to understand neutral is a useless feature with little to no storyline other then your confused on your choices. Oh such a great story line /sarcasm Wow, having a neutral choice actually confuses you? Now I just feel bad. I'm sorry you lack the imagination to understand how others may find joy, and make their own story, with a neutral option. And you say I want it MY way? I don't even like playing neutral, but I understand it's purpose, that other people like it, and that it adds to a game. I said being a Neutral player was basically being confused about what side to chose, L2read. I don't lack imagination. I just see the reality of it, where as playing Neutral in this NEW Star Wars game is not part of the plan as BioWare said. You see, I don't care about the other players who want to play neutral because there are other games out there for them, it's people like you who cry about what you can't do that make games turn out bad. What does playing Neutral add to the game? I'm making valid points while your sitting in your chair saying the same thing over and over and over again. Whether you play Neutral or not, you are still complaining about whats not planned for this NEW (I will caps that all day to get you to understand) Star Wars game. So if you missed what I said earlier. I said "this game is not for you, move along"
Good is a point of view. I said this to you earlier. Missed it. Anyway on the discussion of Han Solo. Yes, he chose a side, but for a while he was neutral. Why is it then, that our characters in game have to be at a point where they have chosen a side? Why can't we start out as neutral, or stay neutral until WE feel fit to join a side. Why are we FORCED to join a side if we don't want to at that particular time? Because this is not burger king. You can't have it your way. No valid counter argument? What was so Valid about having it your way? I'll never understand people's desire to limit their choices in games. Blows my mind. Even if the choice doesn't effect you in any way, you should still want the option, if not for yourself, than for the other people that enjoy it. I'll never understand why people think every game should be how they want it. Nobody is saying they want less of a choice. I think some of us just understand that's how they chose to go with it. And no crying, bitching or forum posting will change that. Hopefully you will come to understand neutral is a useless feature with little to no storyline other then your confused on your choices. Oh such a great story line /sarcasm Wow, having a neutral choice actually confuses you? Now I just feel bad. I'm sorry you lack the imagination to understand how others may find joy, and make their own story, with a neutral option. And you say I want it MY way? I don't even like playing neutral, but I understand it's purpose, that other people like it, and that it adds to a game. I said being a Neutral player was basically being confused about what side to chose, L2read. I don't lack imagination. I just see the reality of it, where as playing Neutral in this NEW Star Wars game is not part of the plan as BioWare said. You see, I don't care about the other players who want to play neutral because there are other games out there for them, it's people like you who cry about what you can't do that make games turn out bad. What does playing Neutral add to the game? I'm making valid points while your sitting in your chair saying the same thing over and over and over again. Whether you play Neutral or not, you are still complaining about whats not planned for this NEW (I will caps that all day to get you to understand) Star Wars game. So if you missed what I said earlier. I said "this game is not for you, move along"
Now our colored words look like a Bolivia flag.
What valid points? You haven't said anything except "Well thats just the way it is". I'm trying to change the way it is because the way it is looks like it's going to suck. That's great if you like the way they are planning it, I don't. And sure, anything I say probably won't have even the smallest effect on the outcome. But at least I can try, and if the game comes out and sucks, I can say "Told you so".
And again, you lack imagination if you can't fathom how neutral can be fun, or add to the game.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
I am so tired of people posting about this game who clearly have no idea what they are talking about. Before any of you make baseless claims about the way this game will be, please do us all a favor and PLAY SOME BIOWARE GAMES. Most importantly, play KOTOR and you will have a very good idea of where they are coming from creatively.
Those of you who have not played KOTOR or other Bioware games have NO business spewing your ignorant comments at the community.
It is so very clear that many of you have absolutely no idea what a Bioware game is like. I am so sick and tired of hearing people compare this game to WoW, when everything I know about the company and previous titles would indicate that this game will be very different. This game will NOT be WoW in Space... but neither will it be a sandbox.
This game is about the war between the light and dark sides of the force, plain and simple. This has been the overarching theme in EVERY Star Wars movie, book, or game. Why any of you would find this surprising is mind-boggling.
What valid points? You haven't said anything except "Well thats just the way it is". I'm trying to change the way it is because the way it is looks like it's going to suck. That's great if you like the way they are planning it, I don't. And sure, anything I say probably won't have even the smallest effect on the outcome. But at least I can try, and if the game comes out and sucks, I can say "Told you so". And again, you lack imagination if you can't fathom how neutral can be fun, or add to the game.
Since you need your hand held to understand what Im saying then allow me to guide you. My point was this is a NEW NEW NEW NEW (see that "NEW" over thur?") game the point is clearly because "well thats the way it is". wtf do you want? Do you want me to make up something on BioWares behalf on why neutral won't be in game? Damn if your imagination is so good roll a faction pretend to be neutral, now THAT'S imagination.
If you think that it will suck, then that is great, everybody has an opinion. Would it make you feel better if I said I understand why people wanna play neutral. But at the same time I don't care? I'm so glad you have an opinion though, I really am. Hopefully you will understand that my imagination is not in question about neutral not being fun, it's just my opinion. mmhk?
Oh and if this game does suck and you come here to tell me "I told you so" I will ask for you to show me a quote of me saying this game will be awesome. That is all.
I am so tired of people posting about this game who clearly have no idea what they are talking about. Before any of you make baseless claims about the way this game will be, please do us all a favor and PLAY SOME BIOWARE GAMES. Most importantly, play KOTOR and you will have a very good idea of where they are coming from creatively. Those of you who have not played KOTOR or other Bioware games have NO business spewing your ignorant comments at the community. It is so very clear that many of you have absolutely no idea what a Bioware game is like. I am so sick and tired of hearing people compare this game to WoW, when everything I know about the company and previous titles would indicate that this game will be very different. This game will NOT be WoW in Space... but neither will it be a sandbox. This game is about the war between the light and dark sides of the force, plain and simple. This has been the overarching theme in EVERY Star Wars movie, book, or game. Why any of you would find this surprising is mind-boggling.
This is Star Neutral Wars. Welcome, we would like to thank you for choosing to play with us and would like to give you your first Light Saber and Squeeze me Care bear. Have a nice day
I am so tired of people posting about this game who clearly have no idea what they are talking about. Before any of you make baseless claims about the way this game will be, please do us all a favor and PLAY SOME BIOWARE GAMES. Most importantly, play KOTOR and you will have a very good idea of where they are coming from creatively. Those of you who have not played KOTOR or other Bioware games have NO business spewing your ignorant comments at the community. It is so very clear that many of you have absolutely no idea what a Bioware game is like. I am so sick and tired of hearing people compare this game to WoW, when everything I know about the company and previous titles would indicate that this game will be very different. This game will NOT be WoW in Space... but neither will it be a sandbox. This game is about the war between the light and dark sides of the force, plain and simple. This has been the overarching theme in EVERY Star Wars movie, book, or game. Why any of you would find this surprising is mind-boggling.
This is Star Neutral Wars. Welcome, we would like to thank you for choosing to play with us and would like to give you your first Light Saber and Squeeze me Care bear. Have a nice day
This is how they mostly see it Anubisan.
Well all i said that it sucks they will force a g vs e choice without the option of staying neutral. And why not? Theres many neutral characters in SW and why shouldnt they exist? They represent something that's been missing from SW, freedom. Freedom to do what You want, when You want.
Clearly it wont be a game for me as i found SW too simplistic to my tastes ages ago. Ironically Bioware saved the space faring/battling/actioner franchise in Mass Effect which is something SW or at least some branch of it shouldve evolved.
I am so tired of people posting about this game who clearly have no idea what they are talking about. Before any of you make baseless claims about the way this game will be, please do us all a favor and PLAY SOME BIOWARE GAMES. Most importantly, play KOTOR and you will have a very good idea of where they are coming from creatively. Those of you who have not played KOTOR or other Bioware games have NO business spewing your ignorant comments at the community. It is so very clear that many of you have absolutely no idea what a Bioware game is like. I am so sick and tired of hearing people compare this game to WoW, when everything I know about the company and previous titles would indicate that this game will be very different. This game will NOT be WoW in Space... but neither will it be a sandbox. This game is about the war between the light and dark sides of the force, plain and simple. This has been the overarching theme in EVERY Star Wars movie, book, or game. Why any of you would find this surprising is mind-boggling.
This is Star Neutral Wars. Welcome, we would like to thank you for choosing to play with us and would like to give you your first Light Saber and Squeeze me Care bear. Have a nice day
This is how they mostly see it Anubisan.
Well all i said that it sucks they will force a g vs e choice without the option of staying neutral. And why not? Theres many neutral characters in SW and why shouldnt they exist? They represent something that's been missing from SW, freedom. Freedom to do what You want, when You want.
Clearly it wont be a game for me as i found SW too simplistic to my tastes ages ago. Ironically Bioware saved the space faring/battling/actioner franchise in Mass Effect which is something SW or at least some branch of it shouldve evolved.
Do you read the swtor website any? You do understand that the factions will have a story line both being different . Adding a 3rd faction and designing a story around it would take far more time and of coarse money. The game is only as free as you see it. If you think not having neutral in the game is restricting your freedom then you are right, it won't be a game for you. I played neutral in SWG for a year, a full year before I got involved in the factions (I chose Imperial). And since then have not turned back. It was so useless and a waste of resources. The only reason I could have seen it being in place was for crafters, thats it. And even then im sure the Empire would call any crafter that deal with rebels traitors and try to execute them. So either way choosing a side would be ideal.
I can relate to wanting neutral, I never gave a reason why not truthfully. All I could say was stop complaining about it, and that things change (so maybe in the future) and I could not see a purpose in having a neutral thing going (and you guys have yet explained why neutral should be added other then to fit the niche community wanting to play it). If you wanna be neutral SWG supports this but for the time being BioWare does not, so no bitching will change that.
I am so tired of people posting about this game who clearly have no idea what they are talking about. Before any of you make baseless claims about the way this game will be, please do us all a favor and PLAY SOME BIOWARE GAMES. Most importantly, play KOTOR and you will have a very good idea of where they are coming from creatively. Those of you who have not played KOTOR or other Bioware games have NO business spewing your ignorant comments at the community. It is so very clear that many of you have absolutely no idea what a Bioware game is like. I am so sick and tired of hearing people compare this game to WoW, when everything I know about the company and previous titles would indicate that this game will be very different. This game will NOT be WoW in Space... but neither will it be a sandbox. This game is about the war between the light and dark sides of the force, plain and simple. This has been the overarching theme in EVERY Star Wars movie, book, or game. Why any of you would find this surprising is mind-boggling.
This is Star Neutral Wars. Welcome, we would like to thank you for choosing to play with us and would like to give you your first Light Saber and Squeeze me Care bear. Have a nice day
This is how they mostly see it Anubisan.
Well all i said that it sucks they will force a g vs e choice without the option of staying neutral. And why not? Theres many neutral characters in SW and why shouldnt they exist? They represent something that's been missing from SW, freedom. Freedom to do what You want, when You want.
Clearly it wont be a game for me as i found SW too simplistic to my tastes ages ago. Ironically Bioware saved the space faring/battling/actioner franchise in Mass Effect which is something SW or at least some branch of it shouldve evolved.
Do you read the swtor website any? You do understand that the factions will have a story line both being different . Adding a 3rd faction and designing a story around it would take far more time and of coarse money. The game is only as free as you see it. If you think not having neutral in the game is restricting your freedom then you are right, it won't be a game for you. I played neutral in SWG for a year, a full year before I got involved in the factions (I chose Imperial). And since then have not turned back. It was so useless and a waste of resources. The only reason I could have seen it being in place was for crafters, thats it. And even then im sure the Empire would call any crafter that deal with rebels traitors and try to execute them. So either way choosing a side would be ideal.
I can relate to wanting neutral, I never gave a reason why not truthfully. All I could say was stop complaining about it, and that things change (so maybe in the future) and I could not see a purpose in having a neutral thing going. If you wanna be neutral SWG supports this but for the time being BioWare does not, so no bitching will change that.
Why should i stop complaining? Thats what this forum is for.
And another thing: if You dont like my complaining change the thread mate, no one is forcing You to read through it, and complain about my complaining.
Point is: i think not having a neutral (free to choose quests from either side if You prefer) characters is not only a lack of innovation its a simplification that SW and not Bioware is known for. And dont say about money, please. Their yearly napkin budget could probably buy You a nice car.
I've finished both KOTORs with the GvE scale in the middle. I chose some of the more morally questionable options and also noble ones, depending on the situation and my mood, You know, that's called being human - or neutral in Your language.
I believe storywise Bioware will give its best, as i've enjoyed each and every title they released.
Why should i stop complaining? Thats what this forum is for. Oh I don't know, maybe you could have joined one of the other so many threads about this subject instead of starting a new one to pollute the forums. And another thing: if You dont like my complaining change the thread mate, no one is forcing You to read through it, and complain about my complaining. See the above. Point is: i think not having a neutral (free to choose quests from either side if You prefer) characters is not only a lack of innovation its a simplification that SW and not Bioware is known for. And dont say about money, please. Their yearly napkin budget could probably buy You a nice car. Here is what I'm saying. Neutral (being human as you put it) plays no major roll in most Star Wars games. Even then this is back in the old republic days not what we seen in movies. Maybe in this day and age people didn't have a choice. The SITH were much more fierce then the imperials. They were brutal and dealt with things in a merciless manner. In KOTOR II Kreia said even before that time they were masters of the force and nobody could imagine the power they held. Now look at Star Wars ep. 1-6 and they are hardly that discription. Basically you can take this and see that they have slowly lost touch with the powers they held. So by bring it back to TOR maybe they are far more powerfull then in the movies and neutrals were forced (or so scared) they had to pick a side. Its obvious the SITH are powerfull, look at timeline 1. They took half the galaxy in a short amount of time and forced a cease fire without second thought. People often fight for what they belive in, not many sit idle and watch everything roll down hill. It is human nature to get involved. So if you are saying being neutral and working for both sides is possible, think again. The Sith would more then likely dispose of you for any involvment with the Republic and the Republic would cast you out for dealing with the Sith. This is about th reason I see fit. I've finished both KOTORs with the GvE scale in the middle. I chose some of the more morally questionable options and also noble ones, depending on the situation and my mood, You know, that's called being human - or neutral in Your language. And I played through three times with Red, Blue, Grey meters. Either way it came out to making the ultimate decision. To save or destroy. The grey area is only for so long. This is another reason it is obsolete in TOR. I believe storywise Bioware will give its best, as i've enjoyed each and every title they released. I agree. And lets hope they put the same time and effort they did into KOTOR with TOR. Just respect their choices for the time being. If it turns out all that bad then you attack. Attacking the game this early for these choices is rather silly considering you have no idea how the game play is and if neutral could fit into this world.
Comments
This is like the second thread with the same subject. Since most of you are unaware that Star Wars is Good VS Evil. Allow me to enlighten you further.
Strait from Wikipedia "The six films feature the Jedi, who use the Force for good, and the Sith, who use the dark side for evil in an attempt to take over the galaxy"
Wookieepedia "College literature professors have remarked that the Star Wars saga, with its struggle between good and evil, democracy and empire, can be considered a national epic for the United States"
I don't see Neutral. I heard SWG has it. Maybe you guys could go play that.
edit: And whats the problem with Good Vs Evil. Most films and games are revolved around this. Get over it.
Lol, mmkay. Its no more childish than paying to watch grown men slap each other on the ass while chasing around a leather ball. Entertainment is entertainment, and arbitrarily labeling gaming as 'childish' indicates a fair amount of ignorance regarding the adult-oriented titles on the market and the way the hobby has expanded to include a large cross section of age brackets.
To the OP's point, I think you are barking up the wrong tree if you want narrative complexity and/or sophisticated adult themes and you're looking at Star Wars. Its always been for kids, George Lucas himself has said so, and what few mature SW stories do exist are buried in the geek obscurity of the Expanded Universe and don't have much mainstream commercial appeal (i.e. Bioware wouldn't be making as much money by catering to them).
SW is lightsabers, cool spaceships, simple-minded morality tales and plots borrowed from older, better works, all of which are rolled together under high production values and fondly remembered by people who were exposed to it at a young age. Don't waste your time reading anything else into it.
Lol, mmkay. Its no more childish than paying to watch grown men slap each other on the ass while chasing around a leather ball. Entertainment is entertainment, and arbitrarily labeling gaming as 'childish' indicates a fair amount of ignorance regarding the adult-oriented titles on the market and the way the hobby has expanded to include a large cross section of age brackets.
To the OP's point, I think you are barking up the wrong tree if you want narrative complexity and/or sophisticated adult themes and you're looking at Star Wars. Its always been for kids, George Lucas himself has said so, and what few mature SW stories do exist are buried in the geek obscurity of the Expanded Universe and don't have much mainstream commercial appeal (i.e. Bioware wouldn't be making as much money by catering to them).
SW is lightsabers, cool spaceships, simple-minded morality tales and plots borrowed from older, better works, all of which are rolled together under high production values and fondly remembered by people who were exposed to it at a young age. Don't waste your time reading anything else into it.
QFT
They must have missed the PG and PG-13 raiting.
For the most part I agree. Anyone who thinks Star Wars was simply "Good vs. Evil" never really understood the plot, or is to ignorant to notice it.
No, the Neutrals were those who could not pick a side. What do you believe good and evil means. This is not a damn religious discussion. Which seems to be the way you see good and evil.
Good and Evil is completely matter of opinion. Meaning not everybody sees eye to eye on a subject therefor the opposing side is seen as evil.
Good: morally admirable
Evil: morally objectionable behavior
Neutrals are just a good or evil player without balls. The only reason I can see people so pissy about not being able to be Neutral or Neutral Bounty Hunters is seen as strictly role playing. I'm going to quote another guy from some thread a few lines down.
"this game is not for you, move along"
Well if old Georgie wants my money and i presume people's who loved SW back in the day who are adults now (and not 12 year olds) he has to up his game, simple as that.
I was faintly expecting that after KOTOR, where BioWare really shown the potential in this franchise. Of course they didnt escape oversimplification (just because Jedi didnt obey Jedi Council doesnt mean they should turn into Sith overlords), but were close to proper adult storyline in SW universe.
That's what I was thinking! :P
You obviously don't get it. Games are getting less and less complex as far as the MMO world goes. Remember when the SWG world growth was about crafting, getting crafted gear etc. Now it's instances "heroics" to be exact. They are not going to "up" it to meet your expectations. Complexidy can turn off a lot of people ( I enjoy complexidy but can live with the simple fact that I can enjoy a game without it). Just because your older does not mean everything should meet your expectations. Only children think that way.
Really this entire thread and conversation is stupid. How do you know how complex it will be? You can't judge the game from released information. Shit changes, most of what you see now could be changed tomorrow.
Well, that's the thing. He doesn't want your money, unless you have kids (which are his primary marketing demographic). He never intended SW to be for adults. He even fought the co-writers and director of Empire Strikes Back (Leigh Brackett, Lawrence Kadsan, and Irvin Kershner) because he felt they were making it too dark for kids. This is documented in Dale Pollock's excellent biography called Skywalking, though unfortunately it is now out of print.
SW just refuses to grow up. Sure it has a few things that appeal to adults, in much the same vein that Toy Story, Monsters Inc, and Wall-E can simultaneously appeal to adults and kids, but take one look at all of the SW products released in the last few years and find me one that isn't kid friendly. The closest you'll come is the Legacy comic series and Karen Traviss' Republic Commando novels, neither of which sell nearly as well as the rest of the franchise.
It will keep the pedo's happy at least.
Star Wars is not JUST about Good Vs. Evil.
Han Solo struggled with his own inner termoil over what was the right thing to do, and he would never have considered himself "Good."
In the recently released "Force Unleashed" game agent Starkiller had a lot of internal conflict over what he should do and many times he did what wouldn't be considered a "Good" jedi thing, but he ultimately wound up on the side of the Jedi.
The story of Star Wars is about shades of grey, and finding your path that you consider right through your own moral code, every character in every story they tell has its own moral code. Even the Jedi code seems to change a bit throughout the 10,000 years we've seen the Jedi order in exsistance. Sometimes they're a lot more agressive and sometimes they're extremely passive, but both are still "Good."
With these extreme moral doctrine changes one can't help but realize that the story is entirely about being true to yourself.
Solo becomes a chief figure in the Alliance. As stated on wikipedia. He was neutral but ultimatly chose a side. It would be up to him to see that side as good or evil. Even though most signs point to the rebelion being good. Even though the story is about being true to yourself that still does not deny the fact that it's Good Vs Evil. Light Jedi, Dark Jedi, Interseting choice of words for the jedi discription you think?
Furthermore does anybody even unerstand how the first 2 KOTOR games worked? You had a line that decided if you was good neutral or evil. While in the end you had to make either a good or evil choice. Either way you ended up going from neutral to getting involved.
This statement assumes that using a 'good and evil' premise is somehow 'non-grown-up' when the concept is much deeper than you realize.
Lucas sifted through mounds of sacred text, myth and legend from thousands of years of human experience to develop his archetypical 'myth'. By following the guidance of Joseph Campbell, esteemed expert on human mythology, he defined the star wars lore around basic human morality concepts which developed from the dawn of human civilization. The overwhelming theme among all human mythologies, legends and sacred texts is a struggle between good and evil. Sometimes it is the hero determining what is good and what is evil, but it is still that duality that defines human mythology. Hardly a 'childish' story but rather a deep understanding of human mythology.
Concepts where the lines between good and evil are 'greyed' represent an aspect of human reality, not human mythology. To make Star War a comment on human reality would be a sin when the entire object is to emulate human mythology.
So, if you are worried about feeling 'childish' playing a good vs. evil game, try 'growing up' and learning about the deep history of human mythology, a highly academic and intellectual pursuit.
I mean, just listen to any George Lucas commentary on the films and you will see why good vs. evil is intractable from Star Wars lore.
As another person said, look to Blade Runner as a commentary on human reality set in the future, look to Star Wars as an emulation of human mythology in a futuristic setting.
Good is a point of view.
Anyway on the discussion of Han Solo. Yes, he chose a side, but for a while he was neutral. Why is it then, that our characters in game have to be at a point where they have chosen a side? Why can't we start out as neutral, or stay neutral until WE feel fit to join a side. Why are we FORCED to join a side if we don't want to at that particular time?
I'll never understand people's desire to limit their choices in games. Blows my mind. Even if the choice doesn't effect you in any way, you should still want the option, if not for yourself, than for the other people that enjoy it.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Let's just hope Jedi's get the option to alter the 'frequentic pollarity chromatization' (or whatever) of that light saber to make it turn red after smacking some face paint on and killing our ingame parents to actually become Sith (and the other way around).
A lot comes down on whether they will implement that side switching idea. The difference between; having tough and interesting choices to make at every turn and in that sense feeling in controll of your char's life and future, or just going with the flow of your specified role's storyline.
If they do manage to pull this side switching off, that might mean you are able to play a 'chaotic' char, switching from good to bad and back to good again when it suits you. In that scenerio you don't need a fixed neutral faction. I hope it will be something like that.
We shall seeeth.
My brand new bloggity blog.
Now our colored words look like a Bolivia flag.
Now our colored words look like a Bolivia flag.
What valid points? You haven't said anything except "Well thats just the way it is". I'm trying to change the way it is because the way it is looks like it's going to suck. That's great if you like the way they are planning it, I don't. And sure, anything I say probably won't have even the smallest effect on the outcome. But at least I can try, and if the game comes out and sucks, I can say "Told you so".
And again, you lack imagination if you can't fathom how neutral can be fun, or add to the game.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
I am so tired of people posting about this game who clearly have no idea what they are talking about. Before any of you make baseless claims about the way this game will be, please do us all a favor and PLAY SOME BIOWARE GAMES. Most importantly, play KOTOR and you will have a very good idea of where they are coming from creatively.
Those of you who have not played KOTOR or other Bioware games have NO business spewing your ignorant comments at the community.
It is so very clear that many of you have absolutely no idea what a Bioware game is like. I am so sick and tired of hearing people compare this game to WoW, when everything I know about the company and previous titles would indicate that this game will be very different. This game will NOT be WoW in Space... but neither will it be a sandbox.
This game is about the war between the light and dark sides of the force, plain and simple. This has been the overarching theme in EVERY Star Wars movie, book, or game. Why any of you would find this surprising is mind-boggling.
Since you need your hand held to understand what Im saying then allow me to guide you. My point was this is a NEW NEW NEW NEW (see that "NEW" over thur?") game the point is clearly because "well thats the way it is". wtf do you want? Do you want me to make up something on BioWares behalf on why neutral won't be in game? Damn if your imagination is so good roll a faction pretend to be neutral, now THAT'S imagination.
If you think that it will suck, then that is great, everybody has an opinion. Would it make you feel better if I said I understand why people wanna play neutral. But at the same time I don't care? I'm so glad you have an opinion though, I really am. Hopefully you will understand that my imagination is not in question about neutral not being fun, it's just my opinion. mmhk?
Oh and if this game does suck and you come here to tell me "I told you so" I will ask for you to show me a quote of me saying this game will be awesome. That is all.
This is Star Neutral Wars. Welcome, we would like to thank you for choosing to play with us and would like to give you your first Light Saber and Squeeze me Care bear. Have a nice day
This is how they mostly see it Anubisan.
This is Star Neutral Wars. Welcome, we would like to thank you for choosing to play with us and would like to give you your first Light Saber and Squeeze me Care bear. Have a nice day
This is how they mostly see it Anubisan.
Well all i said that it sucks they will force a g vs e choice without the option of staying neutral. And why not? Theres many neutral characters in SW and why shouldnt they exist? They represent something that's been missing from SW, freedom. Freedom to do what You want, when You want.
Clearly it wont be a game for me as i found SW too simplistic to my tastes ages ago. Ironically Bioware saved the space faring/battling/actioner franchise in Mass Effect which is something SW or at least some branch of it shouldve evolved.
This is Star Neutral Wars. Welcome, we would like to thank you for choosing to play with us and would like to give you your first Light Saber and Squeeze me Care bear. Have a nice day
This is how they mostly see it Anubisan.
Well all i said that it sucks they will force a g vs e choice without the option of staying neutral. And why not? Theres many neutral characters in SW and why shouldnt they exist? They represent something that's been missing from SW, freedom. Freedom to do what You want, when You want.
Clearly it wont be a game for me as i found SW too simplistic to my tastes ages ago. Ironically Bioware saved the space faring/battling/actioner franchise in Mass Effect which is something SW or at least some branch of it shouldve evolved.
Do you read the swtor website any? You do understand that the factions will have a story line both being different . Adding a 3rd faction and designing a story around it would take far more time and of coarse money. The game is only as free as you see it. If you think not having neutral in the game is restricting your freedom then you are right, it won't be a game for you. I played neutral in SWG for a year, a full year before I got involved in the factions (I chose Imperial). And since then have not turned back. It was so useless and a waste of resources. The only reason I could have seen it being in place was for crafters, thats it. And even then im sure the Empire would call any crafter that deal with rebels traitors and try to execute them. So either way choosing a side would be ideal.
I can relate to wanting neutral, I never gave a reason why not truthfully. All I could say was stop complaining about it, and that things change (so maybe in the future) and I could not see a purpose in having a neutral thing going (and you guys have yet explained why neutral should be added other then to fit the niche community wanting to play it). If you wanna be neutral SWG supports this but for the time being BioWare does not, so no bitching will change that.
This is Star Neutral Wars. Welcome, we would like to thank you for choosing to play with us and would like to give you your first Light Saber and Squeeze me Care bear. Have a nice day
This is how they mostly see it Anubisan.
Well all i said that it sucks they will force a g vs e choice without the option of staying neutral. And why not? Theres many neutral characters in SW and why shouldnt they exist? They represent something that's been missing from SW, freedom. Freedom to do what You want, when You want.
Clearly it wont be a game for me as i found SW too simplistic to my tastes ages ago. Ironically Bioware saved the space faring/battling/actioner franchise in Mass Effect which is something SW or at least some branch of it shouldve evolved.
Do you read the swtor website any? You do understand that the factions will have a story line both being different . Adding a 3rd faction and designing a story around it would take far more time and of coarse money. The game is only as free as you see it. If you think not having neutral in the game is restricting your freedom then you are right, it won't be a game for you. I played neutral in SWG for a year, a full year before I got involved in the factions (I chose Imperial). And since then have not turned back. It was so useless and a waste of resources. The only reason I could have seen it being in place was for crafters, thats it. And even then im sure the Empire would call any crafter that deal with rebels traitors and try to execute them. So either way choosing a side would be ideal.
I can relate to wanting neutral, I never gave a reason why not truthfully. All I could say was stop complaining about it, and that things change (so maybe in the future) and I could not see a purpose in having a neutral thing going. If you wanna be neutral SWG supports this but for the time being BioWare does not, so no bitching will change that.
Why should i stop complaining? Thats what this forum is for.
And another thing: if You dont like my complaining change the thread mate, no one is forcing You to read through it, and complain about my complaining.
Point is: i think not having a neutral (free to choose quests from either side if You prefer) characters is not only a lack of innovation its a simplification that SW and not Bioware is known for. And dont say about money, please. Their yearly napkin budget could probably buy You a nice car.
I've finished both KOTORs with the GvE scale in the middle. I chose some of the more morally questionable options and also noble ones, depending on the situation and my mood, You know, that's called being human - or neutral in Your language.
I believe storywise Bioware will give its best, as i've enjoyed each and every title they released.