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Grouping in PvE MMOs and time commitment
Moaky07
Member Posts: 2,096
There was talk in another topic about grps, and felt it needs its own current thread.....
I liked EQs idea on grps....
They went back, and have allowed for classes other than a handfull to solo. They also have a grp bonus for those sharing exp. The more in grp the bigger the bonus. I think it maxes at 80% more exp for bonus. The last slot didnt count against the average shared exp....encouraging folks to fill grp with final member as well. Before that folks would try to do content with as few possible, that way they not only had better chances at loot...but the exp was better. After the bonus, folks wanted a big group...great exp rate, and could go after tougher mobs for nicer items.
All classes should be able to solo. That is a must in todays MMOs. I didnt notice it much before in EQ, as I played a nec and could solo. My wife got my attention to that fact. As a cleric she depended on a grp. Just like I used to about the first yr I played, but had forgotten about mostly. I had changed my character because my Pali was unwanted in grps after about the first yr in. You cannot make a game without the solo ability to progress. When she switched to her current job, it had her playing unusual hrs. She ended up leaving to play EQ2 when my health got so I never play anymore. She raids there now with her guild, grps a lot, and solos just as much when no one is online.
It is what you do about solo/grps that makes the game IMO. You have to provide grps extra content earmarked for this style...content that a solo person will have to wait until they outlvl it to be able to solo. Then a grp is a must for some content. To me this is the only way to do it. Same with raiding. You earmark the content, and how much of game it is going to contain.
I didnt like how EQ2 would have linked mobs for grps mixed with solo mobs. An area should be for solo, or it should be for grps. Having the end encounter in a zone be for grps after rest is soloed is fine I suppose(some raid mobs in EQ like this)....but not the rest of it. Tune an area for one style or the other. That doesnt mean an entire planet has to be dedicated...just the immediate area. Doesnt make sense to be at the football game, and a track meet is happening on the outside track at the same time. They belong in 2 different arenas.
I always luved in EQ how there was raiding like new folks see in WoW....but there was so much more to zones than just those raids. PoP pushed the raiding game to extreme limits. There should be raiding in all PvE games....but you have to determine how much of it. To me you cut down on all the EQ raiding(4 or more grps) by half or more, and make that content for 2 grps. This gives small guilds things to do together. Bigger guilds just break their raids into multiple ones when need be. They still have their huge targets...but that cant be all the focus of content in an expansion.
That hardcore raid stuff appeals to some, others like me will raid, just not 5 days a week. 2 was enough per week for me and wife. Others will be fine with 1 or 2 grp content, and everyone is covered with solo and storyline play.
This to me is the best way to do PvE games. Breaking it down it would be 35-ish% for the soloer(perhaps up to 50%...depends), 35 to 45% for grps, and the rest for raiding(be it 2 grp or larger). If you add things such as trades they take 1% or so of content as it just doesnt warrant more in PvE.
Bonus if you give us ways to PvP once in a while in neutral/contested lands. If you force PvP upon PvE folks at all times, they are gonna walk ala UO in the early days when EQ come along. EQ folks left, and joined new gamers in WoW for the less extreme commitment.
Old school EQ was one of the biggest time sinks in MMO gaming. It had a death penalty that could give ya ulcers due to the time you lost when a corpse poofed. Even though it had its moment in my life, I wouldnt play that extreme these days. I have the time to devote to it....but it is too much in todays gaming world. EQ did away with that by allowing folks to summon corpses from guild hall. I thought it was a good move, even though it took away my business as a nec summoning bods.
I think WoW is a bit easy on its gamers, but then again I havent touched it since 2 weeks after launch. From what I have seen, and I have read, I believe the toughest thing is farming money/mats for raiding. The raiding itself is done pretty quickly, and none of those all day raids found in EQ.
Somewhere between old school EQ and WoW would be my ideal time sink nowadays...and still too much for most gamers thus I wont get the game "I want" exactly...but I can adjust. Just as long as I have something to do besides washing some undies or roleplaying an online wedding. I wanna game, not be a social deviant ala Uncle Owen. And playing PVE games I shouldnt have to worry, as they always seem to be introducing new things to do.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Comments
Most MMO's that highlight and stress "grouping" are some of the worst designed games in reguards to social interaction..
EQ1 started off great in the early years, before "raiding", before the numerous expansions, before the devs went insane.. lol I enjoyed EQ1 tremendously right up to the point that I was being forced to join a guild, and forced to group to do much of the end game content.. IMO.. the Planes of Power was the beginning of the end for more players..
EQ2 in the beginning when I played it was "OK" at best, until I hit the stone wall at 15-20th level.. Almost every mob was linked with others to make it group content and soloing was impossible.. STUPID idea.. Hence why EQ2 was forced to change the game, but by then I have already cancelled and wasnt' comming back.. EQ2 devs were told in the beginning they were wrong, and they refused to change their game.. People started leaving in droves.. then the devs caved in... Well EQ2 devs.. I dont' play that game.. You lose me once, there wont' be a 2nd chance.. Next time LISTEN when I speak.. LOL
CoH/CoV again was a great game with great ideas.. BUT.. again by the time you get to about 20th level MOST of the hero classes are stuck unless you group.. I had a defender class that focused on healing.. Solo'ing was next to impossible after 16th level.. I still miss the game, but I just dont' have the time to grind in groups.. My playstyle is just too casual..
Eve Online.. I tried the free trial and gave up by the 10th day.. Tutorial sucked, and there was virtually no help anywhere on what to do and where to do.. POOR introduction and design.. Again as a casual gamer I don't have the time to "research" all this crap..UI was terrible, log was terrible.. arggh.. I just hated it almost from the beginning..
Vanguard.. I beta tested that game for about a month.. The game was so group demanding at that time and was so buggy, it wasn't worth the agrivation without getting a paycheck to play it.. I have yet to understand WHY SOE bought this crappy game after Microsoft withdrew, and Sigil was virtually bankrupted and desperate to go live with an uncompleted game..
WoW.. I've played this game casually for almost 4 years now and it's still by far the BEST game on the market today that allows for a wide variety of options.. However, even with all that, WoW still falls victem to the "group" raiding thing for end game content.. Each patch, Each expansion, Each passing month I see people moving from guild to guild to guild like a John in a chicken ranch..
Why?
Because as with most games I've played, when you design content that required group interaction for a lengthy, you will inherantly force people's personalities to interact, and at that point you open the gates to drama.. Drama has been and will always be a major force to deal with when trying to complete end game content.. I don't mind the idea of a group reward, but it must be done in such a way, so that drama doesn't pop up like it normally does.. I could go on and on with all the do's and don'ts to group raiding.. but that would be a post in itself..
So.. inclusion.. PVE grouping is ok.. BUT when it forces people to make commitments.. wrong wrong wrong.. BAD IDEA.. but hey, as long as people contintue to pay to play, why should the devs change their ways..
You do realize that MMO's are about meeting and playing with other people. I can't help but laugh when people demand solo friendly mmo's so they don't have to interact with anyone... If you don't want to interact with people then go play a single player game.
I love to solo, and yet still love MMOs. You don't need to group with people to interact. And, for economist buffs, the auction hall/market are the main thing the game is about if they solo. You play the game solo, and then do all of the other stuff with people, and have the OPTION to group up if you want. I like to be able to solo around, and when I know I have a bunch of time, I can hop in some casual pvp or group rather than being forced into grouping, and not wanting to go out and do anything because I don't have the time to burn 90% of the time.
I think what they are trying to say is, if your friends are not online and you still wanted to play you will still have the ability to do so. Wether that be doing a different mission or quest. They dont want to be handicapped by having to wait for their friends to hop online to do anything.
In short they need to provide diversity to provide the player with the ability to solo something. Now wether that be a crafting job, story quest lines, PVP/RVR. It doesnt matter. People are looking for diversity and there is no harm on reqeusting it. Some people would rather to do the experience with their friends and giving the player an option to keep themselves busy while they are not online, is not a bad thing.
I just wish that raids were shorter because i dont have 3+ hours to sit in front of my pc playing a game.
Prox.. I think you missed the whole point of the post and especially my response to the OP.. let me sum it up in a very simple sentence
WHEN you design a game that requires people to group together for 5+ hours at a time, this is just stupid stupid stupid..
I remember all the lame raids of EQ1 "TOV" .. or WoW's current pain in the arse Naxxaramus.. IF you have to devote large sums of hours to do end game raids, this in itself causes constant problems in MOST guilds.. SKIP a raid.. BOOM, you're kicked from the team.. I have played casually for 10 years and I have YET to see ANY GUILD ANYWHERE that is socially active and last longer then 6 months to a year.. WHY? Because of the lame ass drama that end game grouping requires .. JUST that simple.. You don't have to be a rocket scientist.. MMO's today are designed to be timesinks to keep the money coming in.. They are not socially designed for the customers..
That is the true point of stress. That was the exact point in wich WoW pre-TBC went wrong.
It's not bad at all to have forced group content in an MMO. Hence in the early days people never complained about it.
The problem starts when forced group content takes too much time. I.e. that you are forced to spend many hours in one length to complete an objective (like the 40man RAIDs in WoW pre-TBC) or most other dungeons in WoW.
It's okay to have those, but as long as there is plenty of other group content that doesn't take that long...
... well then people won't have any objection to forced group content.
It all comes down how it's implemented.
If you create solo content that also takes many hours in one stretch to complete an objective... then you got the same problem and many people will start to complain as well.
---------------
So in the end, the problem doesn't lie with Forced group content, but the time required to complete objectives (be it quests, dungeons or RAID's).
Cheers
No matter what games do soloing will be faster leveling that grouping, unless that make the game so solo unfreindly no one wants to play it. The problem lies not in solo or group gameplay it lies in the mind of the current generation of MMO gamers. Gamers who doen't care one bit about realm or server pride, don't want to get to know anyone outside their little ventillo clique.
MMORPGs have turned into small, unit based, action combat games.
I remeber back in the days when everyone on a server kind of knew everyone, and I miss those days.
/wave mid/bors
and...
I wish people would be listening to the Raid Leader and not be dueling in the back ground
I wish people would follow instructions so we can actually get the raid complete in half the time it takes when they don't
I wish people wouldn't randomly go afk
I get there in plenty of time so we could start at the scheduled time and not 30 mins late.
I wish people would come prepared with the required consumables they know they need for the raid.
I wish people wouldn't sign up for a raid then mid way through leave because mom says it's bed time.
I have to do this so why can't they... and so I don't take part in much of the current end game content anymore because I get so frustrated with other people... hence I mostly solo, craft, occasional PvP and play the AH.
As indicated, I played WoW for 2 weeks at launch and quit....never to return. THus I am biased very much towards the mechanics of EQ, which I consider to be the best MMO I have ever played.
It was my understanding that WoW shaved a bunch of time off of raiding, which goes with my indicating that EQ demands too much time these days, and somewhere between wows demands and EQs would be ideal for me these days.
I also mentioned that for mainstream it would probably be too much...but that I could adjust since it is PvE.
Also I dont know where all this argument of no solo/solo come from...but ya have to offer both these days to appeal to the mass casual market. Which I have no doubt devs will continue to do. That is why I like the idea of splitting the content about evenly between single player and grp, and leaving some budget to put raiding in....but no where the focus of the game like EQ has made raiding...or WOW for that matter.
Even at max lvl there should be content outside of raiding.
Anyways it was start of discussion. Would like to see others ideas on PvE gaming.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
That is why LOTLK is on the right track. Some content (H, VA raid, OS raid, Naxx broken up into small chunks) is geared towards short play duration (20min to 1 hr)
That is why LOTLK is on the right track. Some content (H, VA raid, OS raid, Naxx broken up into small chunks) is geared towards short play duration (20min to 1 hr)
I would like to agree with you .. BUT.. part of it is wrong in my opinion.. Heroics runs = good.. VOE raid = good.. OS raid = good, but Naxx run = BAD (just like Kara and the new Uldar) These dungeons are 10 man 12+ boss mob runs. The biggest problem you have is that people are ID'd to these dungeons and ONCE they get ID, they wish to RUN a complete clear at one time.. Hence, 4-6 hours for most groups.. I'm a parent and hubby and don't have 4 hours to devote in the evening for these types of dungeon runs.. It would be one thing if guilds would do these runs on weekends in the day.. BUT since servers reset on Tues, 90% of all guilds start their run Tues night, or Wed.. Pugging Naxx runs on weekends are next to impossible and ONE royal pain in the arse..
In my opinion, using an ID system HURTS the social WoW communitiy and adds to the drama in guilds.. Get rid of the ID system completely
That is why LOTLK is on the right track. Some content (H, VA raid, OS raid, Naxx broken up into small chunks) is geared towards short play duration (20min to 1 hr)
I would like to agree with you .. BUT.. part of it is wrong in my opinion.. Heroics runs = good.. VOE raid = good.. OS raid = good, but Naxx run = BAD (just like Kara and the new Uldar) These dungeons are 10 man 12+ boss mob runs. The biggest problem you have is that people are ID'd to these dungeons and ONCE they get ID, they wish to RUN a complete clear at one time.. Hence, 4-6 hours for most groups.. I'm a parent and hubby and don't have 4 hours to devote in the evening for these types of dungeon runs.. It would be one thing if guilds would do these runs on weekends in the day.. BUT since servers reset on Tues, 90% of all guilds start their run Tues night, or Wed.. Pugging Naxx runs on weekends are next to impossible and ONE royal pain in the arse..
In my opinion, using an ID system HURTS the social WoW communitiy and adds to the drama in guilds.. Get rid of the ID system completely
I can remember the pressure to keep going for a full clear. Thats why i hate being a tank now. I love tanking but if you need to pull you get alot of pressure to keep going which you can to same extent but i have a life too(TWO KIDS,WIFE=LIFE).Shorter runs means more fun IMO.
I like to solo in an MMO myself alot, but the real reason for people to play Massively Multiplayer Online games. Is to start a guild and have fun playing all together. It doesnt mean you have to play in a group everytime you go to grind or nothing. Everyone is just there to communitcate, and have fun, and help one another out. I know I have gotten into positions, where I dont know where something is on a quest and someone will say, " O yea its just right over there in that spot" on ventrilo, and saves me so much time.
It is just small things that make it fun even if you just solo alot, to get better grear you normally have to PVE with a group so.
Heh when I hear people say that the whole idea behind a MMO is to play with other people, I get this thought in my head about my mother telling me to get along with others that I KNOW I don't like......pssshh like that'll happen! Seriously, these days companies make MMOs to get MORE people to play, not to cater to this liberal idea that everyone should be playing nicely. America is a capitalist nation based on a capitalist foundation. Catering to those (you don't vibe with) who don't pay your tab is both foolish and a foolhardy notion.
Unfortunately these days this is what most gen-xers know with their multi-tasking and pampered lifestyles. Wake up nerds! this ain't pen and paper D & D anymore. And to the guy that said he missed the days where everyone knew everyone on a server........HAHAHAHAHA! Get real, I've been playing MMOs since UO and I knew a handful of people I dealt with and a few PKers......that's it........knew everyone.......HA!
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."