DAoC was a good game, except that the classes to this day remain unbalanced. All you have to do is look at the makeup of pvp parties to see the glaring abscence of some classes. Also stealth was completely botched by Mythic making the classes that use it far too powerful.
So anyone voting for DAoC is deluding themselves because you probably only play the uber classes. BTW the game suffers because of far too many classes to start with.
The only MMORPG games that deserve to be talked to as having PvP are those games with a built in arena system. Wow, GW and the newly launched ROM come to mind. Arena system in a game doesn't Equal and Pvp Focused MMO, WoW isnt on that list since its a PVE focused game. Also GW is on the list so vote for that one lol. Why? They have things to be discussed with ...... data back up Without ANY data you can't even speak of PvP balancing tools between classes. Man then blizz must be doing a shitty job then since WoW is so imbalanced. You all may hate Arena PvP, but it is the ONLY in game tool to ensure developpers can see the results of class interactions. No one Hates arena. Designers have the ingame data stats, while players can see result data (which are NOT the same of course) based on 3vs3 or 5v5 or whatever elements in WELL defined and controlled settings. 3v3, 5v5 is not Massive pvp its a god damn side game. something to do when massive pvp isnt available. What's the use of having a PvP game in which you don't have ANY data to compare how good the interactive mechanics are. Other games collect pvp data not just GW and WoW. ---- So conclusion ------- 1 First: The best PvP based game must have the BEST in game analysis tx to DATA mining of the fights in well pre-defined settings Like I said other games do this, stop assuming they dont and only WoW does. 2. Secondly: the best PvP game must have fluid fast and very responsive controls and spell casts to allow immediate and controlled actions and counter actions. You battle the enemy not the mechanics. No it doesn't, Combat comes in all kinds of flavors, point to click, auto facing, Turn based, Rts.
All the rest is Bblablabblablabla (RvR, FFA, Full loot , etc, etc ...) Those are all different types of pvp, by ignoring that you show that you truely are clueless when it comes to pvp. Because if point 1 nor point 2 are there: you don't have anything meaningful to .... DISCUSS. Niether do you, your basically just pulling shit out of your ass, every pvp MMO has some way of collecting pvp data.
Why don't you just say WoW is the better pvp game instead of spouting all this bullshit?
Guild Wars gets my vote for the following reasons:
* You can create a maximum level PvP-only character from the get-go
* The game is completely skill-based. Gear has little to no effect on your functionality
* There are a large number of skills available. Hundreds upon hundreds. This allows for one to create a truly unique build
* One can make use of skills and attributes from one's primary and secondary profession
* Players who partake in PvP can unlock skills and other upgrades through a special PvP "currency"
* Arenas encourage teamwork and co-operation. Rarely will mobbing allow for a win against an organised team
* PvP arenas range from alliance battles to random arenas to hero battles to guild battles and more
* Whilst it may not be completely balanced, it is for the most part very well balanced, especially due to the fact that they have to create a synergy between 10 professions and hundreds of skills
* Skill changes and other updates are released on a regular basis in order to keep the game as balanced as possible
* Monthly tournaments as well as other large tournaments are held
* One can make predictions as to who will place where in the monthly tournaments and earn rewards for correct guesses
My reasoning is very sound. A. The moment a PvP based game does NOT have - IN game - any availabale data to show class interaction, it is worthless as a competitive PvP based game. Simply by lack of development tools for PvP through data mining. Arena is a very good - in game - mechanic to mine and analyse these necessary data. Balance can be fine tuned constantly and is a necessity in PvP based games. B. The best PvP game needs to have the BEST fluid, fast and responsive controls outthere or you are battling the controls more than your enemies. Two very simple requirements for competitive PvP games. And War doesn't have A nor B. Why the use of disccusing things if you can't even have DATA to discuss. --- So PvP systems like RvR, FFO, Free loot etc etc, are worthless UNLESS you can give both developpers and players some meanigful data to tune the game. Or else you are pretty much battling thin air. Another reason why War is a complete fail in PvP DESPITE having RvR as a good idea.
----- Oh and BTW the OP is a fanatic Wow hater on our forums. It is always nice to see that Wow with the MOST PVP players and BEST paid professional PVP players in the MMORPG world is NOT included by this guy. It is the same as stating US football does not exist while at the same time National Broadcast is showing the World Series behind your back. A good laugh.
Zorn this thread is about PVP FOCUSED MMOS. WoW is PVE FOCUSED WIth PVP AS A MINI GAME.
So stfu already.
What does that fact that I think wow is a basic feature, easy, worthless game have to do with my pvp mmo thread?
WoW PvP has always been a joke, even the community itself says that. Arenas are played by a tiny minority, the BGs are dead except for WinterLAG, which only gets players due to rewards. World PvP has been dead for 3+ years.
1. WotLK is the ONLY Fantasy MMORPG these days where EVERY night you have multiple massive WORLD fights of at least 100/100 over a destructable Keep and with destructable (offensively owned) towers with riding artillery, tank to tank battles, collapsable walls .... on EVERY server and NON instanced btw.
100 vs 100 battles on every server every night? Nice!
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I currently play WAR and like the RvR focus. I don't exactly understand why some players are so obsessed with 1vs1 dueling & balance. We are talking about MULTI-player games, not a 1 on 1 fighting genre. In any large scale battles, class imbalance in natural due to certain classes countering others. Maybe you can have good 1v1 balance, but I don't find it necessary.
Personally, I always thought Anarchy Online had a great PvP system. Dueling was very active and there was good class balance overall. It required skill & classes differed significantly in how they fought.
1. WotLK is the ONLY Fantasy MMORPG these days where EVERY night you have multiple massive WORLD fights of at least 100/100 over a destructable Keep and with destructable (offensively owned) towers with riding artillery, tank to tank battles, collapsable walls .... on EVERY server and NON instanced btw.
100 vs 100 battles on every server every night? Nice!
Multiple times. And with Tanks, destructable walls, collapsable towers and Keep, siege artillery that actually can be driven,
OK I'll admit above 4 Raids against 4 (160/160) is a bit laggy, but at least I can have them whenever I WANT too. ))
1. WotLK is the ONLY Fantasy MMORPG these days where EVERY night you have multiple massive WORLD fights of at least 100/100 over a destructable Keep and with destructable (offensively owned) towers with riding artillery, tank to tank battles, collapsable walls .... on EVERY server and NON instanced btw.
100 vs 100 battles on every server every night? Nice!
Multiple times. And with Tanks, destructable walls, collapsable towers and Keep, siege artillery that actually can be driven,
OK I'll admit above 4 Raids against 4 (160/160) is a bit laggy, but at least I can have them whenever I WANT too. ))
Not including Wow as a PvP game is an insult to millions of Wow PvP players.
Including WoW as a PvP game is an insult to anyone that knows what balanced PvP is.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Originally posted by Zorndorf If you WOULD play the game NOW, you would see that the World PvP in Wotlk is VERY much alive and kicking.
There is no World PvP in WoW and has not been in almost 4 years, aside a rare occasion here & there. You just keep making it obvious that you do not even play the game you shill for, you're just some lowly paid poster by Blizzard. I, on the other hand, played the game in its first year of launch and played it from 2007 till the end of last year and then had to quit when it turned into a complete joke.
The FACTS remain that last Arena season is down 65%, because it was a fail from the start. The 5 BGs over 4 years (while Warhammer has 5-6 per Tier) are barely played anymore. Winterlag, a blatant ripoff from WAR, is the only active "BG", too bad it's ridden with bugs & horrible lag. And the general consensus is that it's not all that, it gets old very quick.
WoW was never designed as a PvP game and the only reason BGs were even instituted was due to players asking for it. Some of them got tired of the self made World PvP which had no rewards or any real conclusion.
If you're gonna shill, pick your spots. If there is ever a poll 'Which game caters to the largest group of utter morons" I'm sure WoW will be number one.
the only game with true skill based pvp on that list is gw if you played it you would know and by skilled i mean being skilled
Well I played Anarchy Online and PvP in that game took a lot of skill. Just putting on strong gear was a small challenge, as well as itemization.
So I dunno about GW, but stating it's the only "true skill" based MMO, is a bit fanboyish, considering that it's half a MMO. Plus I've heard other things about its PvP, some laugh at it.
Originally posted by Zorndorf It depends , but it certainly surpasses everything else on the market at the moment in massively played action.
No it does not depend, it's a horrible lagfest. Even WoW fanboys don't bring up Winterlag as a point of praising WoW, which confirms that you are a paid shill.
the only game with true skill based pvp on that list is gw if you played it you would know and by skilled i mean being skilled
Well I played Anarchy Online and PvP in that game took a lot of skill. Just putting on strong gear was a small challenge, as well as itemization.
So I dunno about GW, but stating it's the only "true skill" based MMO, is a bit fanboyish, considering that it's half a MMO. Plus I've heard other things about its PvP, some laugh at it.
well gw you are limited to 8 skills at once to use and you cant change them if you leave the town or wherever you can fight so you got 200 or so skills to make a build from and unless all 8 or less in the grp knows what theyr doing youl lose quite fast and if your healers arent fast enough to heal spike dmg that kills you in a sec or less its gg if you face some high ranked guild
It depends , but it certainly surpasses everything else on the market at the moment in massively played action.
I think it's got a long way to go before it comes anywhere near EVE, but it's a good start. That aside, since the combat doesn't affect the game world any, WOW numbers are kind of immaterial for this particular poll.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
well gw you are limited to 8 skills at once to use and you cant change them if you leave the town or wherever you can fight so you got 200 or so skills to make a build from and unless all 8 or less in the grp knows what theyr doing youl lose quite fast and if your healers arent fast enough to heal spike dmg that kills you in a sec or less its gg if you face some high ranked guild
That sounds interesting enough. A different system from WAR. I almost tried GW back in the day, but was thrown off by the fact that is it half a MMO at best. If I get tired of WAR I may give it a try.
I personally like mass battles and WAR delivers. Many keep thinking it's just a zergfest, but they also barely try to organize & coordinate. A few guilds on our server do coordinated runs, and one thing is apparent. It's not about who has the bigger group.
Last time I checked, WoW, Eve, and Ragnarok are the only games that actually have sponsored pvp competitions (There could be others, but I cant think of any). WoW definitely has the most frequent events along with the biggest prize payoffs. Is it the best pvp game? In terms of taking the most skill to play out of all fantasy games, I would say WoW takes the cake.
Darkfall seems like an easier game to play but is much more tactical, whereas you are fighting over territory and holding massive battles rather then a small arena where your opponent's team is always the same size as your own.
If I wanted to play a game where all I did was fight other people and focus on pvp, then I would choose Darkfall.
Last time I checked, WoW, Eve, and Ragnarok are the only games that actually have sponsored pvp competitions (There could be others, but I cant think of any). WoW definitely has the most frequent events along with the biggest prize payoffs. Is it the best pvp game? In terms of taking the most skill to play out of all fantasy games, I would say WoW takes the cake. Darkfall seems like an easier game to play but is much more tactical, whereas you are fighting over territory and holding massive battles rather then a small arena where your opponent's team is always the same size as your own. If I wanted to play a game where all I did was fight other people and focus on pvp, then I would choose Darkfall.
I don't blame you for not knowing but GW has had multiple tournaments with real life prizes inlcuding world championships. Currently there are only monthly tournaments which I believe have only ingame rewards. In the sence you praise WoW, GW definately stands out because in GW, everyone has the same gear and everyone can roll a max level PvP character with all the skills you've unlocked. So it is fair.
As everyone else does I think all advertise my favorite game aswell.
Unlike what Zorn keeps babbling about that there's a huge, massive blah blah PvP in WoW. GW takes another route that those fights are tactical because of the smaller numbers involved. This is not an issue with the net code or the hardware. Also the small numbers makes it possible to make skills that really have an impact without unbalancing the game. There are some powerful and more interesting skills there than in any other MMO I've seen but you can't have 10+ characters using the same skill to instakill enemies.
By restricting the amount of skills you can take with you in battle, GW makes it even more tactical. Some refer to this as "build wars". It's like compiling a deck in MTG. Other than that, it's very much skill-based since there's skill interrupting and timing of skills as well as dodging projectiles and spells, positioning yourself correctly, team-play, enemy awereness, skill/build knowledge and strategy within the match. Anyone can copy your build and play it better.
PvP is not only "look at us we got 100 ppl fighting here" or "we have superior numbers/gear let's gank 'em". GW is like sports because it's balanced and fair to everyone. Who wouldn't like sports?
Oh, and the OP did a fairly good job of keeping those PvE focused games out of this poll. Cheers.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I like how GW does the skills - here's your set, now pick the ones you want to use for this scenario. It lends itself to more planning before battle because your team has to use skills that build on each other's strengths while trying to figure out what the other team will do so that you can exploit their weaknesses. I think that adds more depth to the battle in both preparation and the combat itself.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Like it or not but I don't see massively world PvP in GW.
Nor do I see the 71 deep talent settings in that game for each class.
So saying that GW has PvP mechanics ok, but not even remotely diverse as the 40vs40 AV or unlimited number of Lake Wintergrasp either.
And the Wow Arena competition tournaments are played with FREE to choose gear on maxed out characters, so skill primes gear in those 200.000 dollar WOW tournaments.
The CC and tactics combined with fast fluid control of your avatars make for an unmatched control in fast PvP fights. Tuned through arena data and constantly fine tuned by Blizzard patches and the famous polishment of Blizzard.
Some call Wow more a FPS experience due to these facts.
Call it Bla Bla as you want, but facts are facts.
So MORE PVP playing options in present day Wow than in the instanced GW's. (and purely instanced because of graphics loading).
What does talent points have to do with pvp? So the mechanics of each game are different? Well no kidding.
Do you work for Blizzard? You sound like a broken record.
AV is not pvp anymore btw. It's a 10 minute game to rush game where about the only thing you do to the enemy player is wave. From when I last played, Lake Wintergrasp was 10 versus 50 game, with hardly any tactics involved except siege engine rushes or tenacity ruled players demolishing groups of enemy players. It was a decent idea but it has turned into a grind just like the rest of the endgame wow has.
The most balanced pvp I've played was in Guild Wars. For open area pvp, Warhammer was cool until about the umpteenth fortress door siege. In WoW I had the most fun in AB, especially before arena was implemented. WotLK has ruined the whole pvp experience of WoW for me, especially due to the extreme inbalances between the classes nowadays.
Comments
DAoC was a good game, except that the classes to this day remain unbalanced. All you have to do is look at the makeup of pvp parties to see the glaring abscence of some classes. Also stealth was completely botched by Mythic making the classes that use it far too powerful.
So anyone voting for DAoC is deluding themselves because you probably only play the uber classes. BTW the game suffers because of far too many classes to start with.
EVE online by far.
Followed perhaps by WAR. I have not however tried darkfall yet so I can't comment on it.
To claim that AoC is a "pvp focused" game is silly. They didn't even have a PvP system at launch. To this day, the PvP is a complete afterthought.
Lineage 2 has always been the best PVP MMO on the market and still is.
The Chronicles of Spellborn
it is a perfect marriage of FPS and MMORPG
EVE. No doubt.
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
Why don't you just say WoW is the better pvp game instead of spouting all this bullshit?
Thanks for the thread bump btw
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
Guild Wars gets my vote for the following reasons:
* You can create a maximum level PvP-only character from the get-go
* The game is completely skill-based. Gear has little to no effect on your functionality
* There are a large number of skills available. Hundreds upon hundreds. This allows for one to create a truly unique build
* One can make use of skills and attributes from one's primary and secondary profession
* Players who partake in PvP can unlock skills and other upgrades through a special PvP "currency"
* Arenas encourage teamwork and co-operation. Rarely will mobbing allow for a win against an organised team
* PvP arenas range from alliance battles to random arenas to hero battles to guild battles and more
* Whilst it may not be completely balanced, it is for the most part very well balanced, especially due to the fact that they have to create a synergy between 10 professions and hundreds of skills
* Skill changes and other updates are released on a regular basis in order to keep the game as balanced as possible
* Monthly tournaments as well as other large tournaments are held
* One can make predictions as to who will place where in the monthly tournaments and earn rewards for correct guesses
Zorn this thread is about PVP FOCUSED MMOS. WoW is PVE FOCUSED WIth PVP AS A MINI GAME.
So stfu already.
What does that fact that I think wow is a basic feature, easy, worthless game have to do with my pvp mmo thread?
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
1. WotLK
WoW PvP has always been a joke, even the community itself says that. Arenas are played by a tiny minority, the BGs are dead except for WinterLAG, which only gets players due to rewards. World PvP has been dead for 3+ years.
{ Mod Edit }
100 vs 100 battles on every server every night? Nice!
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I currently play WAR and like the RvR focus. I don't exactly understand why some players are so obsessed with 1vs1 dueling & balance. We are talking about MULTI-player games, not a 1 on 1 fighting genre. In any large scale battles, class imbalance in natural due to certain classes countering others. Maybe you can have good 1v1 balance, but I don't find it necessary.
Personally, I always thought Anarchy Online had a great PvP system. Dueling was very active and there was good class balance overall. It required skill & classes differed significantly in how they fought.
the only game with true skill based pvp on that list is gw if you played it you would know and by skilled i mean being skilled
100 vs 100 battles on every server every night? Nice!
Multiple times. And with Tanks, destructable walls, collapsable towers and Keep, siege artillery that actually can be driven,
OK I'll admit above 4 Raids against 4 (160/160) is a bit laggy, but at least I can have them whenever I WANT too.
))
WG = Lag fest nothing more nothing less
100 vs 100 battles on every server every night? Nice!
Multiple times. And with Tanks, destructable walls, collapsable towers and Keep, siege artillery that actually can be driven,
OK I'll admit above 4 Raids against 4 (160/160) is a bit laggy, but at least I can have them whenever I WANT too.
))
Not including Wow as a PvP game is an insult to millions of Wow PvP players.
Including WoW as a PvP game is an insult to anyone that knows what balanced PvP is.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
There is no World PvP in WoW and has not been in almost 4 years, aside a rare occasion here & there. You just keep making it obvious that you do not even play the game you shill for, you're just some lowly paid poster by Blizzard. I, on the other hand, played the game in its first year of launch and played it from 2007 till the end of last year and then had to quit when it turned into a complete joke.
The FACTS remain that last Arena season is down 65%, because it was a fail from the start. The 5 BGs over 4 years (while Warhammer has 5-6 per Tier) are barely played anymore. Winterlag, a blatant ripoff from WAR, is the only active "BG", too bad it's ridden with bugs & horrible lag. And the general consensus is that it's not all that, it gets old very quick.
WoW was never designed as a PvP game and the only reason BGs were even instituted was due to players asking for it. Some of them got tired of the self made World PvP which had no rewards or any real conclusion.
If you're gonna shill, pick your spots. If there is ever a poll 'Which game caters to the largest group of utter morons" I'm sure WoW will be number one.
Well I played Anarchy Online and PvP in that game took a lot of skill. Just putting on strong gear was a small challenge, as well as itemization.
So I dunno about GW, but stating it's the only "true skill" based MMO, is a bit fanboyish, considering that it's half a MMO. Plus I've heard other things about its PvP, some laugh at it.
No it does not depend, it's a horrible lagfest. Even WoW fanboys don't bring up Winterlag as a point of praising WoW, which confirms that you are a paid shill.
Well I played Anarchy Online and PvP in that game took a lot of skill. Just putting on strong gear was a small challenge, as well as itemization.
So I dunno about GW, but stating it's the only "true skill" based MMO, is a bit fanboyish, considering that it's half a MMO. Plus I've heard other things about its PvP, some laugh at it.
well gw you are limited to 8 skills at once to use and you cant change them if you leave the town or wherever you can fight so you got 200 or so skills to make a build from and unless all 8 or less in the grp knows what theyr doing youl lose quite fast and if your healers arent fast enough to heal spike dmg that kills you in a sec or less its gg if you face some high ranked guild
It depends , but it certainly surpasses everything else on the market at the moment in massively played action.
I think it's got a long way to go before it comes anywhere near EVE, but it's a good start. That aside, since the combat doesn't affect the game world any, WOW numbers are kind of immaterial for this particular poll.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
That sounds interesting enough. A different system from WAR. I almost tried GW back in the day, but was thrown off by the fact that is it half a MMO at best. If I get tired of WAR I may give it a try.
I personally like mass battles and WAR delivers. Many keep thinking it's just a zergfest, but they also barely try to organize & coordinate. A few guilds on our server do coordinated runs, and one thing is apparent. It's not about who has the bigger group.
Last time I checked, WoW, Eve, and Ragnarok are the only games that actually have sponsored pvp competitions (There could be others, but I cant think of any). WoW definitely has the most frequent events along with the biggest prize payoffs. Is it the best pvp game? In terms of taking the most skill to play out of all fantasy games, I would say WoW takes the cake.
Darkfall seems like an easier game to play but is much more tactical, whereas you are fighting over territory and holding massive battles rather then a small arena where your opponent's team is always the same size as your own.
If I wanted to play a game where all I did was fight other people and focus on pvp, then I would choose Darkfall.
I don't blame you for not knowing but GW has had multiple tournaments with real life prizes inlcuding world championships. Currently there are only monthly tournaments which I believe have only ingame rewards. In the sence you praise WoW, GW definately stands out because in GW, everyone has the same gear and everyone can roll a max level PvP character with all the skills you've unlocked. So it is fair.
As everyone else does I think all advertise my favorite game aswell.
Unlike what Zorn keeps babbling about that there's a huge, massive blah blah PvP in WoW. GW takes another route that those fights are tactical because of the smaller numbers involved. This is not an issue with the net code or the hardware. Also the small numbers makes it possible to make skills that really have an impact without unbalancing the game. There are some powerful and more interesting skills there than in any other MMO I've seen but you can't have 10+ characters using the same skill to instakill enemies.
By restricting the amount of skills you can take with you in battle, GW makes it even more tactical. Some refer to this as "build wars". It's like compiling a deck in MTG. Other than that, it's very much skill-based since there's skill interrupting and timing of skills as well as dodging projectiles and spells, positioning yourself correctly, team-play, enemy awereness, skill/build knowledge and strategy within the match. Anyone can copy your build and play it better.
PvP is not only "look at us we got 100 ppl fighting here" or "we have superior numbers/gear let's gank 'em". GW is like sports because it's balanced and fair to everyone. Who wouldn't like sports?
Oh, and the OP did a fairly good job of keeping those PvE focused games out of this poll. Cheers.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I like how GW does the skills - here's your set, now pick the ones you want to use for this scenario. It lends itself to more planning before battle because your team has to use skills that build on each other's strengths while trying to figure out what the other team will do so that you can exploit their weaknesses. I think that adds more depth to the battle in both preparation and the combat itself.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Asheron's Call. Yep nothing beat that 10 years old game when it comes to pvp.
What does talent points have to do with pvp? So the mechanics of each game are different? Well no kidding.
Do you work for Blizzard? You sound like a broken record.
AV is not pvp anymore btw. It's a 10 minute game to rush game where about the only thing you do to the enemy player is wave. From when I last played, Lake Wintergrasp was 10 versus 50 game, with hardly any tactics involved except siege engine rushes or tenacity ruled players demolishing groups of enemy players. It was a decent idea but it has turned into a grind just like the rest of the endgame wow has.
The most balanced pvp I've played was in Guild Wars. For open area pvp, Warhammer was cool until about the umpteenth fortress door siege. In WoW I had the most fun in AB, especially before arena was implemented. WotLK has ruined the whole pvp experience of WoW for me, especially due to the extreme inbalances between the classes nowadays.