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Hardcore Pvp = 1st Person
gthomasm
Member Posts: 4
Ok, before you take a deep breath and let it all out in a long whining rant...Let me explain.
In the old days of Everquest, you could own or beat another player based on footwork. Staying on their sides or behind them, even if your not a rogue. You constantly moved to hit them, while staying out of their screen or viewpoint. This was the greatest pvp, took skill from the footwork needed, plus the longer fights since using melee weapons. Rangers and Casters found the high ground to get in range attacks. Is it sinking in now, with first person you have to use more skill because you cant zoom out to make everything easier to do.
These days, all the new hardcore folks seem to forget this, its takes an old school hardcore lunatic to remind them. Most think that zooming out to see 500 yards around you is hardcore. Hardcore is skill in pvp, footwork and timing, plus having to look around each tree you pass before knowing its safe. You cant sit n spin or run in a circle while you get off your attacks, you have to focus on the other player and be worried about turning your back to them.
A few games still use the face to face fighting but the melee range is so big, is doesnt matter you can mainly spin to fix it. So apart from the 1st person view, hopefully there will be a very small melee range so players with better skill (footwork) can own the hardcore noobs that like to zoom out and button smash while they are posing for their screenshots.
Hardcore...bah..meet up with me on a bad day..
So making a game that forces all to use 1st person is a great idea, for the pvp and for a natural way to recreate the art of war on the battlefield. Players will always use the easiest way to see the other player, but only by forcing all to use 1st person will it work.
Good Hunting
Comments
enjoy the game just dont force it on others.
I've decided that anyone who uses the words "hardcore" or "carebear" should all be thrown in a giant ring together on national t.v.
The last to walk out is the real "hardcore" one.
Seriously, "hardcore PvPer" really does sound funny.
At least it makes me laugh, anyway.
i think you have a serious misconception of "hardcore"
The only thing which might be "hardcore" in pvp, is perma_death.
Everything else is just playing game, and have brains.
What is hardcore for a teenage gamer ?
Spending whole day & night playing <- sounds really hardcore.
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/thread
Remember, your advantage lies in your opponent's weakness (J)
It's hard to take this thread seriously with such wanton use of the word 'hardcore', throw in a 'carebear' and a 'noob' and you got yourself a fail sandwich with extra mayo.
O_o o_O
CCP should make eve online first person.
I agree with gtho, I played on Talon Zek back in the days of EQ so props to you. Now to the concept of hardcore pvp, when your talking about a game with full loot of your fallen enemy yeah it's pretty hard core. I am sorry to say this but you will never see permadeath in a mmo unless it is a pve server and you can rez people. It's just not that much of a in thing, the cost of making and maintaining a server isn't cheep. If it was games that lose large numbers of players would never consolidate servers.
This game harkens back in feel, for me, to EQ. The seeing your weapon in FPV, the actual skills I see in videos. All It needs is to steal mount and blades mounted combat system so you can ride people down with a lance and I'd be in heaven. Also anyone out there that played EQ will remember the joys of one spell in pvp, blind or blinding flash of light, or whatever it was called. It was a Paladin and Cleric spell I enjoyed using often. It made players memorize the hotkeys for everything as the spell turned your screen black, and you had to listen to guess where you foes were.
And as for the use of hardcore and carebear, that was the terms we used back then, times have changed. I also saw someone talking about not forcing the game on others, no one is, if you don't want to play a game then don't post in the forums on it. If you intend to play it, but one thing urks you then by all means speak up.
I heard that in MO, you get bonus points for chewing broken glass while PvPing.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I heard that when you die in MO, you die in real life.
It's nice to see all the forumfall idiots coming over to MO's boards and showing us exactly how stupid they are.. ^^^
On another note. Yes, the game is FPV. Yes, the game is more "hardcore" than most games on the market. People just make an issue of the word because they want something to complain about. We all know that hardcore would mean perma-death. No one is going to create that game any time soon, if ever. People will not sub for a game where they work for months to create a character, lag out, get killed.. and lose everything. So can we stop acting like we are all high and mighty and take this sandbox game for what it is?
It is a lot more "hardcore" than most. Are we done?
I think this is the first time I have heard someone say circle jerk is "hardcore".
PvP with consequence dictates it's "hardcoreness" and has nothing to do with POV.
"hardcore" is a dumb descriptive name to give sandbox games like this.
There is nothing special about loss of loot on death. It has been done before. It's certainly not a new concept and it's certainly not a big deal. It is simply different.
People need to stop definining sandbox PvP games as some sort of elite phenomenon, because it is pretty silly.
--
/thread
Remember, your advantage lies in your opponent's weakness (J)
Aye, ol Tallon Zek, I was there too, as Sigmar of Halas Empire, I remember spending hours protecting the homeland from pkers and evil races.
Well, I think I used the word "hardcore" too many times, I dont post that much and forget how many people take one word and run with it, and it seems like everyone has their own meaning. Also, everyone is right, it can be corpse camping, ganking, playing 20 hours a day, perma death which is the best imo. Oh the days on DIscord Server on EQ1 (server was only up for 3 months as promotional for expansion) but any death, pvp/falling off a hill, and back to level 1, ton of fun. So whatever you call hardcore is fine, we all have our own meanings that puts it over the top.
But, as my title states, this is about the 1st person part. I want a good solid pvp fight when two players are matched up and anyone can win based on skill. Where the melee fighting is better since you cant zoom out to make the fight easier. Try being a Barbarian on eq1, and keeping up with a gnome rogue in 1st person, like trying to catch a greased pig. So this is what I enjoy about this new mmo, back to the way EQ was for many of us before 3rd person was added to everything.
If all this is still hard to understand, since many of you never played a game like this with players. Imagine playing a current shooter game, when you have to use the knife to kill another player, but instead of just using one attack to kill them. You have to stab them about 10 times to win. You are not going to stand there and see who gets to 10 stabs first, your going to move around so you can hit them, and they cant hit you. This is exactly what I miss from mmo pvp, then add the battlefield experience to this type of fighting and you have this new mmo. So not having 3rd person will force you to really get into the world and the fight, more than you realize.
Good Hunting
I believe that the fpv does make it harder, you have to really decide how you focus on things, especialy if the world requires pve to lvl, if it is pvp only then your just going to have to either be the one hunting for people to kill, or be the hunted. The basics of the concept is your not going to be able to hide behind a bush zoom out and peek around a wall. Your going to have to walk around that corner, not knowing if around that corner is nother or seven people waiting to gank you. I get where the idea is coming from, there is an adrinaline rush from something like that, it really makes you get into the action.
I also agree we will never see a permadeath game, unless that game uses the tabula rasa ability to create new chars based off benchmark levels. I think that will be the only way anyone can ever hope to see that in a game. Also yes, we have seen item loot in pvp on other games but it isn't something you see on a vast majority of titles. It usually is a function found on one or two servers on the games that have them. Excluding some games like say darkfall which is still getting a vast wave of bad press.
While i can understand what he means with "hardcore", there are ways to make 3rd person more "hardcore" than a 1st person and the opposite. If i wanted to test pure reflex and footwork skills with some strategy, i would be playing the good old quake 1-3, that is probably alot more "hardcore" in this aspect than mmos will ever be, but that is just me : ).
Except that in fps games your generic 'epix' are lying all over the place, death has no penalty and you don't get to anything else than running, ressing and killing. Which is more like how WAR feels; with getting killed just being a very small nuisance but something you forgot about the second after you ressed. All in a designated pvp area where every fight is in mutual consent.
Potentially loosing precious gear, AND being in danger while you are doing other stuff than pvp, like mining, fishing, socializing in a quiet place or whatever, should make for exciting gameplay
My brand new bloggity blog.
There could possibly be some logical reasoning in the OP post, but I cant be bothered to read it. A thread title like "Hardcore Pvp = 1st Person" just makes the OP sound idiotic and like some DF fanboy who was disappointed in DF and has now made the jump. GTFO
Just dont use words like Hardcore and Carebear. Its subjective, meaningless, divisive, polarises opinion, has disparaging conotations, and draws out far too many XXXX vs YYYY debates that basically go nowhere.
LMAO:
He has a damn good point . The games now all run on to much i want to see all and i want to hide from all from 1st 2ed or 3ed position. there is no thought alt all involved in games anymore.
We all run to the end of a dungeon to see what is there dragging 100 mobs along with us and not give a hoot on dieing either while we can see everything from a Zoomed out position and taking mental notes of everything in sight and heading on over to our local upload station to be the first to dump it onto everyone else and claim the prize of lookie me I'm a fing hero cookie.
Half of you are not even wet behind the ears when it comes to a real game. Now it's i want more and faster and with no loss of anything and for free, so we can say Damn I'm board. Go play Daggerfell and see how far you get with the i don't care attitude. Games like that may make you think so i am sure you would not like it. Games now are for Brain dead and need every cheat that is possible to hold there hand...... Pff games are not even worth buying anymore. put a bit of thought needed in a Game like E@B had and you get people running around yelling wtf is this crap why are they hitting me mommy......... or even EQ with factions, things like this now are just to complicated for the new Gen of players. now i am going to say it just because i want to..... STFU.... yepper reminisce of WoW.... LMAO. damn that was fun. should i continue this senseless post like 99% of the others. Damn anyone seen my lill wifeeeee......... Oh sweety where you hiding, "Flips over to 2ed PP and zooms out, you cannot hide from meeeeeee...../LMAO
Have fun i do.
As for care bear play style, They tend to play a game for what it's worth by not putting in every cheat code on the marked.
Except that in fps games your generic 'epix' are lying all over the place, death has no penalty and you don't get to anything else than running, ressing and killing. Which is more like how WAR feels; with getting killed just being a very small nuisance but something you forgot about the second after you ressed. All in a designated pvp area where every fight is in mutual consent.
Potentially loosing precious gear, AND being in danger while you are doing other stuff than pvp, like mining, fishing, socializing in a quiet place or whatever, should make for exciting gameplay
Dark that is why i said "hardcore" and "in this aspect". Basically for a professional first person shooter player (aka those that get paid in tournaments) you have to have the best aim one can get and reflexes coupled with some strategy. The aim and reflexes as some other things, are more demanding in these games than in mmos.
Now this is nothing to do with hardcore in my opinion but i understand what he means with hardcore and that is why i said "hardcore". A good pvp mmo will also measure personal skills but in a different way than quake. There are many ways to measure skills, quake would measure aim,reflex and a bit of strategy on its own(at high level gaming), a good pvp mmo would most likelly have other personal skills in the equation to make it challenging: ).
Just to add, though. There is a penalty for dieing, you will lose your weapons (gear) and you will have alot more troubles to control the map/zone in some 1v1, the one that frags the other more in a certain timeline (usually 10 mins for 1v1) will win. Sometimes staying alive is alot more important than to kill due to this, because you only have to win by one frag. It is not unusual to see 2 players fighting and no one has been able to kill the other after 7 mins have passed, sudently one falls and in 3 mins it can end in 10-0
.
Except that in fps games your generic 'epix' are lying all over the place, death has no penalty and you don't get to anything else than running, ressing and killing. Which is more like how WAR feels; with getting killed just being a very small nuisance but something you forgot about the second after you ressed. All in a designated pvp area where every fight is in mutual consent.
Potentially loosing precious gear, AND being in danger while you are doing other stuff than pvp, like mining, fishing, socializing in a quiet place or whatever, should make for exciting gameplay
Dark that is why i said "hardcore" and "in this aspect". Basically for a professional first person shooter player (aka those that get paid in tournaments) you have to have the best aim one can get and reflexes coupled with some strategy. The aim and reflexes as some other things, are more demanding in these games than in mmos.
Now this is nothing to do with hardcore in my opinion but i understand what he means with hardcore and that is why i said "hardcore". A good pvp mmo will also measure personal skills but in a different way than quake. There are many ways to measure skills, quake would measure aim,reflex and a bit of strategy on its own(at high level gaming), a good pvp mmo would most likelly have other personal skills in the equation to make it challenging: ).
Just to add, though. There is a penalty for dieing, you will lose your weapons (gear) and you will have alot more troubles to control the map/zone in some 1v1, the one that frags the other more in a certain timeline (usually 10 mins for 1v1) will win. Sometimes staying alive is alot more important than to kill due to this, because you only have to win by one frag. It is not unusual to see 2 players fighting and no one has been able to kill the other after 7 mins have passed, sudently one falls and in 3 mins it can end in 10-0
.
Yeah, we are not disagreeing, we are just mucking about with that overly abstract term 'hardcore'.
To me personally it isn't so much about skill but more about the excitement that comes from, like you say, REALLY not wanting to die in game. Pretty similar like you describe Quake, then. And the addictive rush of killing someone else that REALLY didn't want to die, for that matter. So I agree that the 'hardcoreness' of MO doesn't lie so much in the 1st or 3rd person view, and twitchy combat, but more in how the game handles death.
My brand new bloggity blog.
Lets hope it goes like that indeed:). Can´t wait to try it out myself.
Bollocks. Your viewing angle in 1st person view in a game is much narrower then in RL. In RL you can notice movement almost 180 degrees in front of you.
Hmm, since nobody else has pointed this out I feel obligated to remind you that EQ had third person view. In fact, it not only had the third person, over-the-shoulder, chase-plane view it also had a top down camera view you could use. In the over-the-shoulder TPV you could zoom back a long ways. It wasn't always fully adjustable but later on they made it so you could raise and lower the camera, tilt it to change the angle, or even rotate it to be offset a little rather than being directly behind you.
And yet here you are talking about how great 1st person PvP was in EQ. I thought the main argument for restricting camera views to 1st peron only was that people would feel compelled to use 3rd person if a game has it available because it gives an advantage. And yet you apparantely had fun using 1st person view in EQ even though the game always had 3rd person view.