Perhaps when soe releases the numbers for rmt conducted through livegamer in vaguard you will find that you are mistaken. That plenty of people do indeed partake of the rmt pie, and not everyone is as clean cut and honest as you would like to believe. The exact same thing happened in EQ2 when the SOE exchange servers were open. We had a bunch of people like you come in and say that the entire community hates it and that everyone would quit and the game would die (not that you, OP, said all those things). In the end, EQ2 got better, got more subscribers, and posted spectacular rmt profit, tens of millions worth. So, indeed quite a few people participated in RMT and if anyone quit they got enough new subscribers to make up for it and then some.
See, your falacy is thinking that RMT has such a huge impact on a game. It doesn't. People want you to think it does, but they're wrong. When RMT hits Vanguard, nothing's going to quadruple in price, your gold won't become worthless, and barely anyone will quit except for the few anti-RMT religious zealots out there who think that they represent all gamers. So in the end I heavily disagree with you that RMT has some massive effect in games. It doesn't. Why? Because any mmo that you're playing now is already infested with RMT. You won't see a change from the decriminalization of something that already occurs. It's just like pot. Pot might as well be legal. After all you can pick it up at any high school and plenty of people deal if you know basic connections. Decriminalizing pot won't make everyone start smoking pot. Most people already had the opportunity to smoke pot and their either chose to do so or chose not to do so. Just like RMT. Anybody can RMT any jolly time they want. Those that do will, those that won't won't even if it does become "decriminalized".
Finally, what is it with your title, rmt vs livegamer? They're the same. Player to player trade. Not some fluff cash shop, but a place where players can trade items of importance and game-changing abilities to other players. Whether it's done legitimately or not, it's still RMT.
I'm all for this as it puts the illegals out of business and puts the money back in American hands. Hell, now that I think of it if it keeps one Chinese, American or Turkish gold seller from contacting me every 5 minutes with gold spams, I think it should be implemented in every game.
Holy cow. Someone who can actually think outside the box! I'm impressed. You're one of the few around here.
Everything said in the original post can be applied to cheating and hacking in an mmo.
It is big business (not as big as rmt, but still big), it can't be completely stopped, it is not new, etc.
Yet I doubt people would stand up and defend a company that allowed people to exploit or hack if they payed some additional fee. Both rmt and exploiting have impacts on the gameworld and mostly negative effects on those that don't exploit or engage in rmt. What is so idiotic about this whole defense of cash sales for virtual items is that no one would want to play a game with a gold farmer as a group mate, yet this endorsement turns everyone into a potential gold seller. It will change the way some people play this game. It will no longer be for entertainment, but instead will become a job or something to make extra income from. Everything will have a cash value on it instead of an entertainment factor. Call me crazy, but I just don't see the benefit in any of this. Sure soe wants to make extra money, but this is directly at the expense of the players and the community. Not to mention the integrity and trust bonds of what soe says and does. This is the lowest form of money grab and disrespect to a community.
RMT is only a problem, because players are have zero fear that they will get caught and punished. You don't see widespread hacking and cheating, because everyone knows the risks involved and can see the effects of getting caught. If players were afraid to engage in rmt then there would not be much of a market for it.
Maybe some day you should just try selling some virtual items, or playing for the sake of finding items to sell. Of course, everyone's different, and you may not find it fun; but for me it greatly enhances the game. Not only am I having a blast playing a game I like, I also have the possibility of finding an item that some dolt is going to pay me hundreds of dollars for. Now that's fun!! To be honest, I equate it a lot to gambling. Games that would allow RMT are in many ways a slot machine. You kill a boss, and most likely won't make a big score but sometimes you will. I can just about guarantee you (although I admit to no quantitative proof) that gameplay style lights up the exact same pleasure receptors in your brain as a slot machine at a casino. Add in the fact that you're playing for a very low monthly cost (rather than plunking down a quarter for each pull), and there is an extremely addictive and enjoyable aspect to it. When you sell digital items it's not about making the game a job, it's about adding a vast amount of additional excitement to the game.
You mark my words, someday in the future a dev will realize this, make a spectacular game, and make it to support rmt. All for the very simple fact that there is an addictive gambling aspect to the game. It's for this very reason that D2 was such a hit. It was nothing more than a super advanced slot machine.
Companies like Blizzard and Mythic condemn it, and that's why according to your own words about WoW, you don't even notice RMT trade. Isn't that the BEST you can hope for in an MMO; never noticing that any RMT goes on? Ok then, it isn't so futile. Same goes for Mythic and their public ban-counter.
You might not notice a problem but that doesn't mean games like wow aren't very active on RMT. In fact it is kinda absurb to even talk about RMT not being permitted... I think it was like 3 years ago I left eq to play wow. I decided to sell my eq plat when I shut my account down and then used the money to buy wow gold. I went with one of the big RMT sites. Believe me the whole thing went' smooth as silk and I had gold in my mailbox the next day in wow.
I know plenty of people in wow that periodically buy gold so if you think RMT isn't active in wow you are kinda living in a fantasy.
I never thougth that I would see someone that had to say "Yes, there is RMT in WoW." to someone.
If one thinks that there is no RMT market in WoW one really have to be blind. Top server raiding guild funded their way through Naxxramas, shurely funding themself now, with RMT bougth gold for repairs/potions/enchantments. Serverknown farmers, regulars. Goldads from google.
Following this logic we shouldn't attempt to prevent crime because you can't completely stop it. Oh wait, but you can reduce it and punish those who violate the rules! What a concept!
Some crimes are more important to try to prevent than others, and some crimes can't be prevented no matter what you do. RMTs fall into the latter case. Most of the gold/item farmers are located in China. If you are in the least bit familiar with international business, you already know that China will not try to stop crimes unless the crimes directly affect the ruling power structure. In the case of RMTs, it is actually to the benefit of China to allow the practice as it brings in much needed foreign capital. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Chinese government wasn't in some way actually facilitating the practice. So don't expect any help from the Chinese government, and without the the government's help, there is no way to put a stop to the practice.
BTW, I like your comparison of RMT users to athletes using steriods.
But you can ban IP's coming from china and this works pretty well in Lotro. There is always something to do, just someone needs to have the idea.
Companies like Blizzard and Mythic condemn it, and that's why according to your own words about WoW, you don't even notice RMT trade. Isn't that the BEST you can hope for in an MMO; never noticing that any RMT goes on? Ok then, it isn't so futile. Same goes for Mythic and their public ban-counter. A company upholding their terms of service is enough to create play experiences where RMT is out of sight and out of mind. A company that's going to try and constantly convert you into a RMT user and broadcasting the benefits of such in-game through customers that do use it...well, that can never be out of sight or out of mind no matter how good or vet of a "community" the Vanguard players are.
You might not notice a problem but that doesn't mean games like wow aren't very active on RMT. In fact it is kinda absurb to even talk about RMT not being permitted... I think it was like 3 years ago I left eq to play wow. I decided to sell my eq plat when I shut my account down and then used the money to buy wow gold. I went with one of the big RMT sites. Believe me the whole thing went' smooth as silk and I had gold in my mailbox the next day in wow.
I know plenty of people in wow that periodically buy gold so if you think RMT isn't active in wow you are kinda living in a fantasy. Really the only thing SoE has done is just provided a site you can go to for RMT transactions that is not in the gray market that you the player can interact with directly. This cuts prices and cuts fraud. Generally a good thing for the player and a good thing for the company providing the game. And it doesn't encourage farming it actually hurts it. Chinese farmers find the prices drop and the market for that game drys up. So they move on to better games. Just look at the eq2 rmt servers.
Anyway I did a comparison of eq2 servers, one with rmt and one without and really there wasn't much difference. If anything the in game market was better on the rmt server then the non rmt server. So I think that people are making a big deal over nothing.
Please actually read what I wrote. I didn't say RMT in WoW didn't EXIST, I said that you can play without NOTICING, and I only said that to echo booj's own words of saying that people in WoW were able to play without noticing.
Of course there's RMT in WoW; but I bet when you bought gold you didn't go tellin' everyone that you did, did you? Why wouldn't you have? Because you'd have been reported and banned. That assures as much as assured can be that someone can play an MMO without noticing the effects of RMT.
Can you say the same about Vanguard moving forward? No. Because it's condoned and encouraged to spread the joys of RMT. Which was precisely the point of my post and how the idea of there being a "community" against RMT is futile; you don't decide the characteristics of your player community, SOE does. You can't play an MMO and ignore the wants and will of the developer, it's ridiculous.
Companies like Blizzard and Mythic condemn it, and that's why according to your own words about WoW, you don't even notice RMT trade. Isn't that the BEST you can hope for in an MMO; never noticing that any RMT goes on? Ok then, it isn't so futile. Same goes for Mythic and their public ban-counter.
You might not notice a problem but that doesn't mean games like wow aren't very active on RMT. In fact it is kinda absurb to even talk about RMT not being permitted... I think it was like 3 years ago I left eq to play wow. I decided to sell my eq plat when I shut my account down and then used the money to buy wow gold. I went with one of the big RMT sites. Believe me the whole thing went' smooth as silk and I had gold in my mailbox the next day in wow.
I know plenty of people in wow that periodically buy gold so if you think RMT isn't active in wow you are kinda living in a fantasy.
I never thougth that I would see someone that had to say "Yes, there is RMT in WoW." to someone.
If one thinks that there is no RMT market in WoW one really have to be blind. Top server raiding guild funded their way through Naxxramas, shurely funding themself now, with RMT bougth gold for repairs/potions/enchantments. Serverknown farmers, regulars. Goldads from google.
Really? No noticable RMT in WoW, since when?
What known top server raiding guild is out there ACTIVELY broadcasting the fact that they're gold farmers, and aren't banned and disbanded? Please link me to one.
What known individual gold farmers do you know right now actively broadcast that they're a gold farmer? Show me that too.
For the Google ad buyers, web stores and etc., since when did they broadcast the character names of their gold farming accounts? Show me one that does that.
You can do neither of the three.
You can suspect guilds in WoW, you can suspect individual persons in WoW, and even be absolutely correct; but none are able to openly solicit without being banned, and there's value in that beyond the trivialities you try to reduce it to.
In Vanguard, you're able to operate a gold farming guild, be an open gold farmer and have an out-of-game web presence through the LiveGamer service. It's actually ENCOURAGED and endorsed.
C'mon now, a month ago some of you same new-found supporters of LiveGamer would've been saying there's no "noticeable" RMT in Vanguard; yet evidently there had been, the same as any MMO including WoW. So no need to generalize the word "noticeable", because you know what it means. It means that you're able to play in an environment where the developers are strict enough on RMT participants to completely censor their effects out in-game.
Originally posted by zaxxon23 Maybe some day you should just try selling some virtual items, or playing for the sake of finding items to sell. Of course, everyone's different, and you may not find it fun; but for me it greatly enhances the game. Not only am I having a blast playing a game I like, I also have the possibility of finding an item that some dolt is going to pay me hundreds of dollars for. Now that's fun!! To be honest, I equate it a lot to gambling. Games that would allow RMT are in many ways a slot machine. You kill a boss, and most likely won't make a big score but sometimes you will. I can just about guarantee you (although I admit to no quantitative proof) that gameplay style lights up the exact same pleasure receptors in your brain as a slot machine at a casino. Add in the fact that you're playing for a very low monthly cost (rather than plunking down a quarter for each pull), and there is an extremely addictive and enjoyable aspect to it. When you sell digital items it's not about making the game a job, it's about adding a vast amount of additional excitement to the game.
You mark my words, someday in the future a dev will realize this, make a spectacular game, and make it to support rmt. All for the very simple fact that there is an addictive gambling aspect to the game. It's for this very reason that D2 was such a hit. It was nothing more than a super advanced slot machine.
Why on earth would I log into a game and treat it as work. That is the furthest thing in the world I would want to do, let alone pay a subscription fee to do it.
Why would I want to play a game where my group mates are using my efforts to line their pockets instead of advancing the guild or just have fun? A game where it is financially profitable for a company to encourage people to work instead of play is beyond stupid.
It is a problem when game developers encourage people to treat their entertainment as some form of secondary job. Those two concepts are at such complete odds with each other I just don't understand why people think there is no problem.
Some people seem to think this will be the end of gold farmers. Why would this put gold farmers out of business? They now have an easy method to sell gold at no risk, they are now the game developers best customers and they no longer have to tie up computers to log on alts and spam sale messages. There is zero incentive for the game developer to chase the farmers out of the game, because they get a 10% cut of the pie and odds are they will out produce the players. Keep in mind this is the same company that couldn't find a simple gold dupe that ruined the games economy for the first year or so in EQ2.
Why should they care now if there is a gold dupe, gold farmers or people running bots to farm? They get a 10% cut from all of those activities that were once considered harmful to the game.
Following this logic we shouldn't attempt to prevent crime because you can't completely stop it. Oh wait, but you can reduce it and punish those who violate the rules! What a concept!
It is not a crime,that is why none of the developers can stop it.Until there is a set in place law that prevents these RMT sites from doing it,nobody can stop it.You cannot compare a crime with something that is not a crime lol.The problem is that RMT are not stealing anything,they are not stealing intellectual property,they are either offering a service or providing a trade.BTW most of these bigger sites are run by Americans,they hire out asian companies to do the work,but are still run by Americans.
What a game/developer has to do is PROVE that RMT actions ruin the design of the game for all players.An outside source has no right over the property to alter it in any fashion,so this is what they have to prove,it is a VERY tough chore to convince some 80 year old judge about gaming concepts.Even if they proved the rights of others were being hampered,then the right of the individual has to also be looked at,after all that player has a right in the game also.IMO the setting can NEVER be enforced because there is too much gray area,where would the law draw the line?Could it say a player cannot do favors on the side for an item in game?could two friends not exchange in game?I mean EVERY game on the planet is designed to help each other,so it would never become a totally clear law that could be enforced.
I might also point out,that it has become apparent so many like to blame the developer or in this case SOE,how about your fellow gamers?they are the ones that make it happen AND the reason it exists.
As a matter of fact a game could be held liable for banning a player as well,but again they would have the burden of proving it was an investment and the game has cost the player time and money.The player would have the same chore to prove liability as the game does against RMT,too many sketchy areas would cost hundreds of thousands in courts and may never have a clear cut answer.There is NO way a game could ever prove you paid for an in game exchange,but as there is no law against the game booting you out,the game can enforce it.
As of now the laws favor the developer over the consumer ,and has no ruling as to RMT services.One day it will change,perhaps if there was a 30 year old judge that could understand the ramifications and concepts that go into gaming economies,and some half decent lawyers,but again they are bookworms not gamers,so they have no clue either.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Companies like Blizzard and Mythic condemn it, and that's why according to your own words about WoW, you don't even notice RMT trade. Isn't that the BEST you can hope for in an MMO; never noticing that any RMT goes on? Ok then, it isn't so futile. Same goes for Mythic and their public ban-counter. A company upholding their terms of service is enough to create play experiences where RMT is out of sight and out of mind. A company that's going to try and constantly convert you into a RMT user and broadcasting the benefits of such in-game through customers that do use it...well, that can never be out of sight or out of mind no matter how good or vet of a "community" the Vanguard players are.
You might not notice a problem but that doesn't mean games like wow aren't very active on RMT. In fact it is kinda absurb to even talk about RMT not being permitted... I think it was like 3 years ago I left eq to play wow. I decided to sell my eq plat when I shut my account down and then used the money to buy wow gold. I went with one of the big RMT sites. Believe me the whole thing went' smooth as silk and I had gold in my mailbox the next day in wow.
I know plenty of people in wow that periodically buy gold so if you think RMT isn't active in wow you are kinda living in a fantasy. Really the only thing SoE has done is just provided a site you can go to for RMT transactions that is not in the gray market that you the player can interact with directly. This cuts prices and cuts fraud. Generally a good thing for the player and a good thing for the company providing the game. And it doesn't encourage farming it actually hurts it. Chinese farmers find the prices drop and the market for that game drys up. So they move on to better games. Just look at the eq2 rmt servers.
Anyway I did a comparison of eq2 servers, one with rmt and one without and really there wasn't much difference. If anything the in game market was better on the rmt server then the non rmt server. So I think that people are making a big deal over nothing.
Please actually read what I wrote. I didn't say RMT in WoW didn't EXIST, I said that you can play without NOTICING, and I only said that to echo booj's own words of saying that people in WoW were able to play without noticing.
Of course there's RMT in WoW; but I bet when you bought gold you didn't go tellin' everyone that you did, did you? Why wouldn't you have? Because you'd have been reported and banned. That assures as much as assured can be that someone can play an MMO without noticing the effects of RMT.
Can you say the same about Vanguard moving forward? No. Because it's condoned and encouraged to spread the joys of RMT. Which was precisely the point of my post and how the idea of there being a "community" against RMT is futile; you don't decide the characteristics of your player community, SOE does. You can't play an MMO and ignore the wants and will of the developer, it's ridiculous.
No I just told my friends. Well actually they told me it wasn't originally my idea most of the people that came over when I did from EQ did. A lot of my guild did. I was kinda against it but someone made the arguement that I'd invested a lot of time making plat in eq and buying gold in wow was just kinda like transfering some of that time investment to another game. It kinda made sense. But to answer your question no it wasn't secret but I didn't go into ooc yelling to the world... But everyone I knew knew and most of them did it too. Really it is pretty common in wow.
You don't think there are people spamming in says and stuff because nobody does it :P
I really liked the pot comparison someone made a few posts back.
I find the whole notion of RMT to greatly mirror the debate of the war on drugs. You cant really win either way and the cold fact of the matter is that it is here to stay and will never go away. There is such a market for the stuff now that both sides actually make more money leaving eachother be at some level. Think about it, if drugs were completely legal, how many cops would be out of work? Without jobs how will they continue to buy their own drugs?
In the end RMT is not evil. Does it step afoul of the "spirit of gaming"? Perhaps if you go by olympic rules that ban doping. The fact remains that the company is pushing its drug of choice, your subscription to the game. They have no issue taking that money for doing little more than keeping you entertained. You could argue that once they start to profit from it, it violates the spirit of the game. There in lies the rub.
The publisher and manager of the product do not want to get cut out of profits. The RMT businesses drive a ton of subscriptions. We hear of these sweat shops with farmers working 24x7 on hundreds of computers, running multiple clients per box. They must have active subscriptions to make the trades. Those add up to tons of bucks in the pocket of the publisher. There is very little true interest in stamping RMT out. They thrive off of eachother now like conjoined twins. Cut them apart and you risk both suffering, or dying.
Games like EVE online figured out the whole RMT issue long ago. They embraced it, just not as in your face as SOE has done. The real goal of RMT as a game system is to integrate it into game play with security that protects the buyer and seller while making both use an active subscription.
Time is money and as long as it takes time to make money or gain items in a MMO you can be sure that someone will make a market for it. I dont think you will see RMT go away.
The last part of the whole discussion; and one that I find horribly funny, is how some gamers will allow a game company to release crap products, shoddy support and take them for hundreds of dollars only to then maintain the idea that SOE or Blizzard has (or should have) some higher moral code when it comes to RMT and the spirit of gaming. WTF? They could give 2 shits about you.
In some way they try to make you think they are better than the "illegal gold farmers" (btw its not illegal at all) because in reality they want to be the one selling it to you they just havent figured out how to do it right yet! As long as it appears like it is BAD they have an open market and profit off the entire situation.
No I just told my friends. Well actually they told me it wasn't originally my idea most of the people that came over when I did from EQ did. A lot of my guild did. I was kinda against it but someone made the arguement that I'd invested a lot of time making plat in eq and buying gold in wow was just kinda like transfering some of that time investment to another game. It kinda made sense. But to answer your question no it wasn't secret but I didn't go into ooc yelling to the world... But everyone I knew knew and most of them did it too. Really it is pretty common in wow. You don't think there are people spamming in says and stuff because nobody does it :P I really liked the pot comparison someone made a few posts back.
More semantics to play around the meat of the matter. You and your friends kept it to yourself, but you didn't consider it a "secret" because it was kept to yourselves simply because there was no reason to share it with anyone else, right?
Does it matter if no one knew you were an open gold buyer because you kept it a secret, or because you simply chose not to tell anyone? No. What matters is you DID share that kind of info in-game, you'd likely have been banned if reported and investigated.
And I doubt everyone you knew, knew. If they did and they amassed to an entire guild; then you happened to be in a guild of very tight-lipped people who didn't care to use the support services to their advantage. Again, what matters? The fact that you claim no one you knew cared? Or the fact that they possessed the ability to report you? It's the latter.
It's having that power to know that customer support is always on your side, and on the side of the thousands of other people that play with you that leads to an environment where you can play without "noticing" gold buyers and gold sellers; because they don't broadcast what they do unless they're willing to lose their accounts.
If you do notice a RMT participant in WoW or other MMOs with policies against RMT, then you have the ability to report 'em and return to peace of mind. Will you have that luxury in Vanguard? No, more than likely you'll be punished if you get aggressive towards a guy who's harming your gameplay; be it his "Need before Greed" definition ranking some Taco Bell above class differences, or whatever else.
Sepher, is it about if one notice RMT, in the meaning of chatspam or similar ways. If so. What is the big deal with SOE adding RMT?
Many people did not notice the massive gold dupe in EQ2.
Does that somehow make it not a big deal?
How about looking at it this way.
Soe is once again doing something that will drive away players. Those are the people you share a community with and call friends. If this RMT is not a big deal as some keep claiming, then why not ask to get rid of it so that your fellow players and friends don't feel the need to leave? If it is not a big deal, then it shouldn't be a problem to not introduce it in the first place. Unless it is somehow a big enough deal to sit by and idly watch soe chase off more players for a game that is desperate for players.
How can it be possible that this will not effect gameplay when people are leaving and it sets up another ugly black eye that will sway people away from playing this game. That is not even touching on how things of this nature change the very motivation that people have while playing or the effects it will have on the economy/community.
No, I won't be attending the summit, I wanted to point out for some how big of a problem this is for game developers and that folks are kidding themselves if they don't think ALL publishers are actively looking for ways to deal with RMT.
As for a game being Designed for RMT and that is marketing as such, that's fine. People know what they are getting into ahead of time and can make a choice. The reason LiveGamer has caused such an uproar with the Vanguard community is because it's a traditional MMO with a community largely made up of MMO vets that have been around awhile. LiveGamer was implemented after the fact in a game people really love. But I do think that if there is any game where the community can stamp out RMT, it's Vanguard. It appears that SoE can't even get enough people to Beta-test the damn thing.
Again, no.
Message board protests and all that mess means nothing. SOE doesn't care how "vet" their players are or tight-knit a community you believe you are. The only power a player ever has is their dollar; their words mean jack.
Trying to be some above the norm community is the exact OPPOSITE of what'd it'd take to discourage SOE from using RMT. "Let's stick together, endure it, express our displeasure, but still pay our sub fees and even solicit the game to others!".
C'mon, it's not like your sub amount shrinks a lil bit for every displeasure you get to share. Whether you're pissed or elated, you're paying the same thing.
You actually believe in your mind that Vanguard's players have a chance of playing a game more RMT free than other MMOs, and that's plain delusional. The company running Vanguard ENCOURAGES it now.
You try and spell out this mystical grey area of complexity on how to deal with RMT, but there is no grey area, the companies either uphold the three or so sentences in their Terms of Service condemning it or exclude such a thing by depending upon RMT (of course SOE tries to have their cake and eat it too by allowing RMT, but outlawing any other than their own) .
Companies like Blizzard and Mythic condemn it, and that's why according to your own words about WoW, you don't even notice RMT trade. Isn't that the BEST you can hope for in an MMO; never noticing that any RMT goes on? Ok then, it isn't so futile. Same goes for Mythic and their public ban-counter.
A company upholding their terms of service is enough to create play experiences where RMT is out of sight and out of mind. A company that's going to try and constantly convert you into a RMT user and broadcasting the benefits of such in-game through customers that do use it...well, that can never be out of sight or out of mind no matter how good or vet of a "community" the Vanguard players are.
WoW has the largest RMT market by far, it's completely over-taken WoW. Blizzard has done nothing to address this problem. Why?
My hope with Vanguard is that because RMT has never been a big problem and is relatively isolated that the community can stop it from infecting the game. I've quit 'another' MMOs because RMT runs rampant with bots farming everything, many players are purchased and the only way to compete it to engage in RMT. No thank you.
Originally posted by boojiboy WoW has the largest RMT market by far, it's completely over-taken WoW. Blizzard has done nothing to address this problem. Why? My hope with Vanguard is that because RMT has never been a big problem and is relatively isolated that the community can stop it from infecting the game. I've quit 'another' MMOs because RMT runs rampant with bots farming everything, many players are purchased and the only way to compete it to engage in RMT. No thank you.
Just to show you how completely off base you are.
Go to www.peons4hire.com and watch how that redirects you to blizzards website to give you a nice big juicy anti-gold farming message. You see Blizzard took them to court and destroyed them. Out of business, dead. Can you tell me what soe has done to combat gold farmers in their games, because I don't see much effort on their part?
They also took to author of a major bot program to court... and won. He is finished and up the creek as a result. Major victory against gold famers and botters.
There have been several times when blizzard did massive bannings of farmers and botters. I read in becketts mmo magazine a story about one gold selling company. They talked about how blizzards mass bannings put many companies out of business and crippled the gold sellers for months. Just google "blizzard bans" and you will see many articles about 30k, 35k, 59k accounts being banned at a time.
You say blizzard hasn't done anything to stop gold farming (which just shows your ignorance to the subject at hand) and that it ruins their game.
Now soe legitimizes gold selling in their games and it is your HOPE the things will somehow work out?
You are displaying some really strange logic here. Keep in mind that soe has shown they cannot combat unattended macro playing in one of thier games so they offically let people do it. They also could not find a simple gold dupe in EQ2 for over a year, despite the players using nothing more than the eq2players website to pinpoint who the cheaters were.
Lets not have any great leaps of faith on behalf of soe doing something that won't somehow screw up gameplay. They certainly do not have a stunning track record in this regard.
Sepher, is it about if one notice RMT, in the meaning of chatspam or similar ways. If so. What is the big deal with SOE adding RMT?
Many people did not notice the massive gold dupe in EQ2.
Does that somehow make it not a big deal?
How about looking at it this way.
Soe is once again doing something that will drive away players. Those are the people you share a community with and call friends. If this RMT is not a big deal as some keep claiming, then why not ask to get rid of it so that your fellow players and friends don't feel the need to leave? If it is not a big deal, then it shouldn't be a problem to not introduce it in the first place. Unless it is somehow a big enough deal to sit by and idly watch soe chase off more players for a game that is desperate for players.
How can it be possible that this will not effect gameplay when people are leaving and it sets up another ugly black eye that will sway people away from playing this game. That is not even touching on how things of this nature change the very motivation that people have while playing or the effects it will have on the economy/community.
I have played EQ2 alot of times, I find the game fun. But even so I have never really gotten into it. And my highest character is lvl 15 deleted some and started others . I find it intriguing and have subbed for a month here and there, station pass. I don't have that many hours in that game so I know nothing about EQ2 goldfarmer (and such) and hope that I did not indirectly said I did.
But the question I asked Sepher is based on the impression that I got from the last posts concerning WoW and now with SOE doing RMT for Vanguard.
I care myself very little about RMT being added or not. And if SOE annoys their customer it is their problem. My problem aswell? -Why, I don't play a game out of sentimental value. Or just maybe they know something I don't. Are they doing this RMT thing with a common "trial & error" to see if it works out. :S
I Blizzard is in a very good position on this. Are they out of the discussion, so to speak, because they have other ground to stand on. Why are there capital invested in a company like Livegamer if Blizzards views holds the truth, the one and only. What do they see that Blizzard (obviously) don't?
Anyway the issue is not really about if one see a goldspammer in chat or not.
C'mon now, a month ago some of you same new-found supporters of LiveGamer would've been saying there's no "noticeable" RMT in Vanguard; yet evidently there had been, the same as any MMO including WoW. So no need to generalize the word "noticeable", because you know what it means. It means that you're able to play in an environment where the developers are strict enough on RMT participants to completely censor their effects out in-game.
I discuss if Livegamer is a big deal or not. That shouldn't make me a supporter.
C'mon now, a month ago some of you same new-found supporters of LiveGamer would've been saying there's no "noticeable" RMT in Vanguard; yet evidently there had been, the same as any MMO including WoW. So no need to generalize the word "noticeable", because you know what it means. It means that you're able to play in an environment where the developers are strict enough on RMT participants to completely censor their effects out in-game.
I discuss if Livegamer is a big deal or not. That shouldn't make me a supporter.
Being silent about something can be seen as condoning. Questioning whether it's a big deal or not and pushing for people to see it as not a big deal is certainly condoning. So yes, you are a supporter; in heart and monetarily through your sub fee being used to pay for RMT services.
Originally posted by boojiboy WoW has the largest RMT market by far, it's completely over-taken WoW. Blizzard has done nothing to address this problem. Why? My hope with Vanguard is that because RMT has never been a big problem and is relatively isolated that the community can stop it from infecting the game. I've quit 'another' MMOs because RMT runs rampant with bots farming everything, many players are purchased and the only way to compete it to engage in RMT. No thank you.
Just to show you how completely off base you are.
Go to www.peons4hire.com and watch how that redirects you to blizzards website to give you a nice big juicy anti-gold farming message. You see Blizzard took them to court and destroyed them. Out of business, dead. Can you tell me what soe has done to combat gold farmers in their games, because I don't see much effort on their part?
They also took to author of a major bot program to court... and won. He is finished and up the creek as a result. Major victory against gold famers and botters.
There have been several times when blizzard did massive bannings of farmers and botters. I read in becketts mmo magazine a story about one gold selling company. They talked about how blizzards mass bannings put many companies out of business and crippled the gold sellers for months. Just google "blizzard bans" and you will see many articles about 30k, 35k, 59k accounts being banned at a time.
You say blizzard hasn't done anything to stop gold farming (which just shows your ignorance to the subject at hand) and that it ruins their game.
Now soe legitimizes gold selling in their games and it is your HOPE the things will somehow work out?
You are displaying some really strange logic here. Keep in mind that soe has shown they cannot combat unattended macro playing in one of thier games so they offically let people do it. They also could not find a simple gold dupe in EQ2 for over a year, despite the players using nothing more than the eq2players website to pinpoint who the cheaters were.
Lets not have any great leaps of faith on behalf of soe doing something that won't somehow screw up gameplay. They certainly do not have a stunning track record in this regard.
Thank you.
There's a difference between a company that takes your subscription money and uses it to invest into RMT, and one that uses it to fight RMT. A company that advertises RMT and a company that advertises banning tens of thousands of RMT participants at a time.
There's no padded edge to what SOE is doing; and it's quite foolish to believe they're doing this only to face some "futility" in fighting RMT, or that the move is entirely to provide a method of safe transactions between players. Since when has Vanguard's biggest problems in-game across the last two years been rampant gold farming? Since when were it's population troubles attributed mostly to stolen accounts from fraudulent RMT commerce? Get real, it's a money grab, and all these sudden feelings and beliefs of how futile the fight against RMT is are just a coping mechanism players will understandably need to continue playin'.
C'mon now, a month ago some of you same new-found supporters of LiveGamer would've been saying there's no "noticeable" RMT in Vanguard; yet evidently there had been, the same as any MMO including WoW. So no need to generalize the word "noticeable", because you know what it means. It means that you're able to play in an environment where the developers are strict enough on RMT participants to completely censor their effects out in-game.
I discuss if Livegamer is a big deal or not. That shouldn't make me a supporter.
Being silent about something can be seen as condoning. Questioning whether it's a big deal or not and pushing for people to see it as not a big deal is certainly condoning. So yes, you are a supporter; in heart and monetarily through your sub fee being used to pay for RMT services.
The only answer is the one you behold. Disagreeing makes one into an adversary... you are with me or you are against me. Make your choice.
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- But please the girl is already crying and shocked. Stop yelling at her.
- So you support reckless driving?
(Alot things if missing there and can be discussed. How big of a deal was the reckless driving. Is it a constant thing done from the same person. And so on. And do anyone deserve to be treated like that (like what?) from a total stranger?)
- Well you are a sadist to find it enjoying to see people crying and thus making them so...
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Not even remotely close to be supporting RMT, not on the map here. And you should not really be able to tell if I'm supporting it or not.
Silent agreeing is a real big excuse for others to run over people, great.
On the other hand let say you are right. Twist it. And then as there obviously is a market for RMT. What is there to discuss, really, it must mean that it is a good thing as apperantly so many are using it.
Originally posted by boojiboy WoW has the largest RMT market by far, it's completely over-taken WoW. Blizzard has done nothing to address this problem. Why? My hope with Vanguard is that because RMT has never been a big problem and is relatively isolated that the community can stop it from infecting the game. I've quit 'another' MMOs because RMT runs rampant with bots farming everything, many players are purchased and the only way to compete it to engage in RMT. No thank you.
Just to show you how completely off base you are.
Go to www.peons4hire.com and watch how that redirects you to blizzards website to give you a nice big juicy anti-gold farming message. You see Blizzard took them to court and destroyed them. Out of business, dead. Can you tell me what soe has done to combat gold farmers in their games, because I don't see much effort on their part?
They also took to author of a major bot program to court... and won. He is finished and up the creek as a result. Major victory against gold famers and botters.
There have been several times when blizzard did massive bannings of farmers and botters. I read in becketts mmo magazine a story about one gold selling company. They talked about how blizzards mass bannings put many companies out of business and crippled the gold sellers for months. Just google "blizzard bans" and you will see many articles about 30k, 35k, 59k accounts being banned at a time.
You say blizzard hasn't done anything to stop gold farming (which just shows your ignorance to the subject at hand) and that it ruins their game.
Now soe legitimizes gold selling in their games and it is your HOPE the things will somehow work out?
You are displaying some really strange logic here. Keep in mind that soe has shown they cannot combat unattended macro playing in one of thier games so they offically let people do it. They also could not find a simple gold dupe in EQ2 for over a year, despite the players using nothing more than the eq2players website to pinpoint who the cheaters were.
Lets not have any great leaps of faith on behalf of soe doing something that won't somehow screw up gameplay. They certainly do not have a stunning track record in this regard.
OK, let me simplify it.
Here are the ways I am impacted by RMT when playing Vanguard...... ....... ..... ........ the occasional gold-spam tell that sneaks through the spam filter. Other than that, RMT is a non-issue in Vanguard.
Here are the ways I was impacted by RMT when playing WoW. 1) Gold-bots running everywhere killing mobs, farming gold. I had to compete against that. 2) Interaction... giving tells to folks seeing if they wanted to group and finding out they were just bots or where being powered leveled to be sold. 3) I could barely sell anything on the market because the influx of purchased gold dramatically drove the prices down on items. 4) Gold spam and apparently no attempts to stop it, "10,000 gold for $65—one hour turnaround on most servers.” Heck even when I wasn't playing the game I was bombarded by magazine ads, internet ads etc. for gold and power-leveled characters advertisements.
It's completely out of control in WoW and it's a game breaker for me and many others.
Originally posted by boojiboy WoW has the largest RMT market by far, it's completely over-taken WoW. Blizzard has done nothing to address this problem. Why? My hope with Vanguard is that because RMT has never been a big problem and is relatively isolated that the community can stop it from infecting the game. I've quit 'another' MMOs because RMT runs rampant with bots farming everything, many players are purchased and the only way to compete it to engage in RMT. No thank you.
Just to show you how completely off base you are.
Go to www.peons4hire.com and watch how that redirects you to blizzards website to give you a nice big juicy anti-gold farming message. You see Blizzard took them to court and destroyed them. Out of business, dead. Can you tell me what soe has done to combat gold farmers in their games, because I don't see much effort on their part?
They also took to author of a major bot program to court... and won. He is finished and up the creek as a result. Major victory against gold famers and botters.
There have been several times when blizzard did massive bannings of farmers and botters. I read in becketts mmo magazine a story about one gold selling company. They talked about how blizzards mass bannings put many companies out of business and crippled the gold sellers for months. Just google "blizzard bans" and you will see many articles about 30k, 35k, 59k accounts being banned at a time.
You say blizzard hasn't done anything to stop gold farming (which just shows your ignorance to the subject at hand) and that it ruins their game.
Now soe legitimizes gold selling in their games and it is your HOPE the things will somehow work out?
You are displaying some really strange logic here. Keep in mind that soe has shown they cannot combat unattended macro playing in one of thier games so they offically let people do it. They also could not find a simple gold dupe in EQ2 for over a year, despite the players using nothing more than the eq2players website to pinpoint who the cheaters were.
Lets not have any great leaps of faith on behalf of soe doing something that won't somehow screw up gameplay. They certainly do not have a stunning track record in this regard.
OK, let me simplify it.
Here are the ways I am impacted by RMT when playing Vanguard...... ....... ..... ........ the occasional gold-spam tell that sneaks through the spam filter. Other than that, RMT is a non-issue in Vanguard.
Here are the ways I was impacted by RMT when playing WoW. 1) Gold-bots running everywhere killing mobs, farming gold. I had to compete against that. 2) Interaction... giving tells to folks seeing if they wanted to group and finding out they were just bots or where being powered leveled to be sold. 3) I could barely sell anything on the market because the influx of purchased gold dramatically drove the prices down on items. 4) Gold spam and apparently no attempts to stop it, "10,000 gold for $65—one hour turnaround on most servers.” Heck even when I wasn't playing the game I was bombarded by magazine ads, internet ads etc. for gold and power-leveled characters advertisements.
It's completely out of control in WoW and it's a game breaker for me and many others.
As someone whos played WoW and FFXI RMT is a problem in only ONE of those games.
Heres a hint, its not WoW.
I have never asked someone to party only to find out their a bot or an RMT, frankly I find it hard to imagine that you did either. However if you were speaking of FFXI, RMT in that game pretty much made the game unplayable.
The AH on WoW is by nature easy to mess with, however I make plenty of gold every day without even trying in that game, the people who buy gold are just pathetically lazy.
As always the number one way to stop RMT?
STOP BUYING
Again, RMT in WoW is laughable, never had an issue, and seriously I've never had to camp against them or anything where they hindered my game play.
I seriously think you played a different game
Edit: How can you tell if someones being "power leveled to be sold" ??
Did the RMT say "Hey don't party with me, I'm PLing this guy to sell it!"
I haven't played WoW in a year, but I know RMT is still driving people out of the game. And the realization that many of the characters around me were simply bots.... was because there was no response at all from them. What the hell does lawl mean?
Comments
Perhaps when soe releases the numbers for rmt conducted through livegamer in vaguard you will find that you are mistaken. That plenty of people do indeed partake of the rmt pie, and not everyone is as clean cut and honest as you would like to believe. The exact same thing happened in EQ2 when the SOE exchange servers were open. We had a bunch of people like you come in and say that the entire community hates it and that everyone would quit and the game would die (not that you, OP, said all those things). In the end, EQ2 got better, got more subscribers, and posted spectacular rmt profit, tens of millions worth. So, indeed quite a few people participated in RMT and if anyone quit they got enough new subscribers to make up for it and then some.
See, your falacy is thinking that RMT has such a huge impact on a game. It doesn't. People want you to think it does, but they're wrong. When RMT hits Vanguard, nothing's going to quadruple in price, your gold won't become worthless, and barely anyone will quit except for the few anti-RMT religious zealots out there who think that they represent all gamers. So in the end I heavily disagree with you that RMT has some massive effect in games. It doesn't. Why? Because any mmo that you're playing now is already infested with RMT. You won't see a change from the decriminalization of something that already occurs. It's just like pot. Pot might as well be legal. After all you can pick it up at any high school and plenty of people deal if you know basic connections. Decriminalizing pot won't make everyone start smoking pot. Most people already had the opportunity to smoke pot and their either chose to do so or chose not to do so. Just like RMT. Anybody can RMT any jolly time they want. Those that do will, those that won't won't even if it does become "decriminalized".
Finally, what is it with your title, rmt vs livegamer? They're the same. Player to player trade. Not some fluff cash shop, but a place where players can trade items of importance and game-changing abilities to other players. Whether it's done legitimately or not, it's still RMT.
Holy cow. Someone who can actually think outside the box! I'm impressed. You're one of the few around here.
Maybe some day you should just try selling some virtual items, or playing for the sake of finding items to sell. Of course, everyone's different, and you may not find it fun; but for me it greatly enhances the game. Not only am I having a blast playing a game I like, I also have the possibility of finding an item that some dolt is going to pay me hundreds of dollars for. Now that's fun!! To be honest, I equate it a lot to gambling. Games that would allow RMT are in many ways a slot machine. You kill a boss, and most likely won't make a big score but sometimes you will. I can just about guarantee you (although I admit to no quantitative proof) that gameplay style lights up the exact same pleasure receptors in your brain as a slot machine at a casino. Add in the fact that you're playing for a very low monthly cost (rather than plunking down a quarter for each pull), and there is an extremely addictive and enjoyable aspect to it. When you sell digital items it's not about making the game a job, it's about adding a vast amount of additional excitement to the game.
You mark my words, someday in the future a dev will realize this, make a spectacular game, and make it to support rmt. All for the very simple fact that there is an addictive gambling aspect to the game. It's for this very reason that D2 was such a hit. It was nothing more than a super advanced slot machine.
You might not notice a problem but that doesn't mean games like wow aren't very active on RMT. In fact it is kinda absurb to even talk about RMT not being permitted... I think it was like 3 years ago I left eq to play wow. I decided to sell my eq plat when I shut my account down and then used the money to buy wow gold. I went with one of the big RMT sites. Believe me the whole thing went' smooth as silk and I had gold in my mailbox the next day in wow.
I know plenty of people in wow that periodically buy gold so if you think RMT isn't active in wow you are kinda living in a fantasy.
I never thougth that I would see someone that had to say "Yes, there is RMT in WoW." to someone.
If one thinks that there is no RMT market in WoW one really have to be blind. Top server raiding guild funded their way through Naxxramas, shurely funding themself now, with RMT bougth gold for repairs/potions/enchantments. Serverknown farmers, regulars. Goldads from google.
Really? No noticable RMT in WoW, since when?
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
Some crimes are more important to try to prevent than others, and some crimes can't be prevented no matter what you do. RMTs fall into the latter case. Most of the gold/item farmers are located in China. If you are in the least bit familiar with international business, you already know that China will not try to stop crimes unless the crimes directly affect the ruling power structure. In the case of RMTs, it is actually to the benefit of China to allow the practice as it brings in much needed foreign capital. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Chinese government wasn't in some way actually facilitating the practice. So don't expect any help from the Chinese government, and without the the government's help, there is no way to put a stop to the practice.
BTW, I like your comparison of RMT users to athletes using steriods.
But you can ban IP's coming from china and this works pretty well in Lotro. There is always something to do, just someone needs to have the idea.
You might not notice a problem but that doesn't mean games like wow aren't very active on RMT. In fact it is kinda absurb to even talk about RMT not being permitted... I think it was like 3 years ago I left eq to play wow. I decided to sell my eq plat when I shut my account down and then used the money to buy wow gold. I went with one of the big RMT sites. Believe me the whole thing went' smooth as silk and I had gold in my mailbox the next day in wow.
I know plenty of people in wow that periodically buy gold so if you think RMT isn't active in wow you are kinda living in a fantasy. Really the only thing SoE has done is just provided a site you can go to for RMT transactions that is not in the gray market that you the player can interact with directly. This cuts prices and cuts fraud. Generally a good thing for the player and a good thing for the company providing the game. And it doesn't encourage farming it actually hurts it. Chinese farmers find the prices drop and the market for that game drys up. So they move on to better games. Just look at the eq2 rmt servers.
Anyway I did a comparison of eq2 servers, one with rmt and one without and really there wasn't much difference. If anything the in game market was better on the rmt server then the non rmt server. So I think that people are making a big deal over nothing.
Please actually read what I wrote. I didn't say RMT in WoW didn't EXIST, I said that you can play without NOTICING, and I only said that to echo booj's own words of saying that people in WoW were able to play without noticing.
Of course there's RMT in WoW; but I bet when you bought gold you didn't go tellin' everyone that you did, did you? Why wouldn't you have? Because you'd have been reported and banned. That assures as much as assured can be that someone can play an MMO without noticing the effects of RMT.
Can you say the same about Vanguard moving forward? No. Because it's condoned and encouraged to spread the joys of RMT. Which was precisely the point of my post and how the idea of there being a "community" against RMT is futile; you don't decide the characteristics of your player community, SOE does. You can't play an MMO and ignore the wants and will of the developer, it's ridiculous.
You might not notice a problem but that doesn't mean games like wow aren't very active on RMT. In fact it is kinda absurb to even talk about RMT not being permitted... I think it was like 3 years ago I left eq to play wow. I decided to sell my eq plat when I shut my account down and then used the money to buy wow gold. I went with one of the big RMT sites. Believe me the whole thing went' smooth as silk and I had gold in my mailbox the next day in wow.
I know plenty of people in wow that periodically buy gold so if you think RMT isn't active in wow you are kinda living in a fantasy.
I never thougth that I would see someone that had to say "Yes, there is RMT in WoW." to someone.
If one thinks that there is no RMT market in WoW one really have to be blind. Top server raiding guild funded their way through Naxxramas, shurely funding themself now, with RMT bougth gold for repairs/potions/enchantments. Serverknown farmers, regulars. Goldads from google.
Really? No noticable RMT in WoW, since when?
What known top server raiding guild is out there ACTIVELY broadcasting the fact that they're gold farmers, and aren't banned and disbanded? Please link me to one.
What known individual gold farmers do you know right now actively broadcast that they're a gold farmer? Show me that too.
For the Google ad buyers, web stores and etc., since when did they broadcast the character names of their gold farming accounts? Show me one that does that.
You can do neither of the three.
You can suspect guilds in WoW, you can suspect individual persons in WoW, and even be absolutely correct; but none are able to openly solicit without being banned, and there's value in that beyond the trivialities you try to reduce it to.
In Vanguard, you're able to operate a gold farming guild, be an open gold farmer and have an out-of-game web presence through the LiveGamer service. It's actually ENCOURAGED and endorsed.
C'mon now, a month ago some of you same new-found supporters of LiveGamer would've been saying there's no "noticeable" RMT in Vanguard; yet evidently there had been, the same as any MMO including WoW. So no need to generalize the word "noticeable", because you know what it means. It means that you're able to play in an environment where the developers are strict enough on RMT participants to completely censor their effects out in-game.
Why on earth would I log into a game and treat it as work. That is the furthest thing in the world I would want to do, let alone pay a subscription fee to do it.
Why would I want to play a game where my group mates are using my efforts to line their pockets instead of advancing the guild or just have fun? A game where it is financially profitable for a company to encourage people to work instead of play is beyond stupid.
It is a problem when game developers encourage people to treat their entertainment as some form of secondary job. Those two concepts are at such complete odds with each other I just don't understand why people think there is no problem.
Some people seem to think this will be the end of gold farmers. Why would this put gold farmers out of business? They now have an easy method to sell gold at no risk, they are now the game developers best customers and they no longer have to tie up computers to log on alts and spam sale messages. There is zero incentive for the game developer to chase the farmers out of the game, because they get a 10% cut of the pie and odds are they will out produce the players. Keep in mind this is the same company that couldn't find a simple gold dupe that ruined the games economy for the first year or so in EQ2.
Why should they care now if there is a gold dupe, gold farmers or people running bots to farm? They get a 10% cut from all of those activities that were once considered harmful to the game.
It is not a crime,that is why none of the developers can stop it.Until there is a set in place law that prevents these RMT sites from doing it,nobody can stop it.You cannot compare a crime with something that is not a crime lol.The problem is that RMT are not stealing anything,they are not stealing intellectual property,they are either offering a service or providing a trade.BTW most of these bigger sites are run by Americans,they hire out asian companies to do the work,but are still run by Americans.
What a game/developer has to do is PROVE that RMT actions ruin the design of the game for all players.An outside source has no right over the property to alter it in any fashion,so this is what they have to prove,it is a VERY tough chore to convince some 80 year old judge about gaming concepts.Even if they proved the rights of others were being hampered,then the right of the individual has to also be looked at,after all that player has a right in the game also.IMO the setting can NEVER be enforced because there is too much gray area,where would the law draw the line?Could it say a player cannot do favors on the side for an item in game?could two friends not exchange in game?I mean EVERY game on the planet is designed to help each other,so it would never become a totally clear law that could be enforced.
I might also point out,that it has become apparent so many like to blame the developer or in this case SOE,how about your fellow gamers?they are the ones that make it happen AND the reason it exists.
As a matter of fact a game could be held liable for banning a player as well,but again they would have the burden of proving it was an investment and the game has cost the player time and money.The player would have the same chore to prove liability as the game does against RMT,too many sketchy areas would cost hundreds of thousands in courts and may never have a clear cut answer.There is NO way a game could ever prove you paid for an in game exchange,but as there is no law against the game booting you out,the game can enforce it.
As of now the laws favor the developer over the consumer ,and has no ruling as to RMT services.One day it will change,perhaps if there was a 30 year old judge that could understand the ramifications and concepts that go into gaming economies,and some half decent lawyers,but again they are bookworms not gamers,so they have no clue either.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
You might not notice a problem but that doesn't mean games like wow aren't very active on RMT. In fact it is kinda absurb to even talk about RMT not being permitted... I think it was like 3 years ago I left eq to play wow. I decided to sell my eq plat when I shut my account down and then used the money to buy wow gold. I went with one of the big RMT sites. Believe me the whole thing went' smooth as silk and I had gold in my mailbox the next day in wow.
I know plenty of people in wow that periodically buy gold so if you think RMT isn't active in wow you are kinda living in a fantasy. Really the only thing SoE has done is just provided a site you can go to for RMT transactions that is not in the gray market that you the player can interact with directly. This cuts prices and cuts fraud. Generally a good thing for the player and a good thing for the company providing the game. And it doesn't encourage farming it actually hurts it. Chinese farmers find the prices drop and the market for that game drys up. So they move on to better games. Just look at the eq2 rmt servers.
Anyway I did a comparison of eq2 servers, one with rmt and one without and really there wasn't much difference. If anything the in game market was better on the rmt server then the non rmt server. So I think that people are making a big deal over nothing.
Please actually read what I wrote. I didn't say RMT in WoW didn't EXIST, I said that you can play without NOTICING, and I only said that to echo booj's own words of saying that people in WoW were able to play without noticing.
Of course there's RMT in WoW; but I bet when you bought gold you didn't go tellin' everyone that you did, did you? Why wouldn't you have? Because you'd have been reported and banned. That assures as much as assured can be that someone can play an MMO without noticing the effects of RMT.
Can you say the same about Vanguard moving forward? No. Because it's condoned and encouraged to spread the joys of RMT. Which was precisely the point of my post and how the idea of there being a "community" against RMT is futile; you don't decide the characteristics of your player community, SOE does. You can't play an MMO and ignore the wants and will of the developer, it's ridiculous.
No I just told my friends. Well actually they told me it wasn't originally my idea most of the people that came over when I did from EQ did. A lot of my guild did. I was kinda against it but someone made the arguement that I'd invested a lot of time making plat in eq and buying gold in wow was just kinda like transfering some of that time investment to another game. It kinda made sense. But to answer your question no it wasn't secret but I didn't go into ooc yelling to the world... But everyone I knew knew and most of them did it too. Really it is pretty common in wow.
You don't think there are people spamming in says and stuff because nobody does it :P
I really liked the pot comparison someone made a few posts back.
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Ethion
I find the whole notion of RMT to greatly mirror the debate of the war on drugs. You cant really win either way and the cold fact of the matter is that it is here to stay and will never go away. There is such a market for the stuff now that both sides actually make more money leaving eachother be at some level. Think about it, if drugs were completely legal, how many cops would be out of work? Without jobs how will they continue to buy their own drugs?
In the end RMT is not evil. Does it step afoul of the "spirit of gaming"? Perhaps if you go by olympic rules that ban doping. The fact remains that the company is pushing its drug of choice, your subscription to the game. They have no issue taking that money for doing little more than keeping you entertained. You could argue that once they start to profit from it, it violates the spirit of the game. There in lies the rub.
The publisher and manager of the product do not want to get cut out of profits. The RMT businesses drive a ton of subscriptions. We hear of these sweat shops with farmers working 24x7 on hundreds of computers, running multiple clients per box. They must have active subscriptions to make the trades. Those add up to tons of bucks in the pocket of the publisher. There is very little true interest in stamping RMT out. They thrive off of eachother now like conjoined twins. Cut them apart and you risk both suffering, or dying.
Games like EVE online figured out the whole RMT issue long ago. They embraced it, just not as in your face as SOE has done. The real goal of RMT as a game system is to integrate it into game play with security that protects the buyer and seller while making both use an active subscription.
Time is money and as long as it takes time to make money or gain items in a MMO you can be sure that someone will make a market for it. I dont think you will see RMT go away.
The last part of the whole discussion; and one that I find horribly funny, is how some gamers will allow a game company to release crap products, shoddy support and take them for hundreds of dollars only to then maintain the idea that SOE or Blizzard has (or should have) some higher moral code when it comes to RMT and the spirit of gaming. WTF? They could give 2 shits about you.
In some way they try to make you think they are better than the "illegal gold farmers" (btw its not illegal at all) because in reality they want to be the one selling it to you they just havent figured out how to do it right yet! As long as it appears like it is BAD they have an open market and profit off the entire situation.
Get real, its all about the $$ yo
More semantics to play around the meat of the matter. You and your friends kept it to yourself, but you didn't consider it a "secret" because it was kept to yourselves simply because there was no reason to share it with anyone else, right?
Does it matter if no one knew you were an open gold buyer because you kept it a secret, or because you simply chose not to tell anyone? No. What matters is you DID share that kind of info in-game, you'd likely have been banned if reported and investigated.
And I doubt everyone you knew, knew. If they did and they amassed to an entire guild; then you happened to be in a guild of very tight-lipped people who didn't care to use the support services to their advantage. Again, what matters? The fact that you claim no one you knew cared? Or the fact that they possessed the ability to report you? It's the latter.
It's having that power to know that customer support is always on your side, and on the side of the thousands of other people that play with you that leads to an environment where you can play without "noticing" gold buyers and gold sellers; because they don't broadcast what they do unless they're willing to lose their accounts.
If you do notice a RMT participant in WoW or other MMOs with policies against RMT, then you have the ability to report 'em and return to peace of mind. Will you have that luxury in Vanguard? No, more than likely you'll be punished if you get aggressive towards a guy who's harming your gameplay; be it his "Need before Greed" definition ranking some Taco Bell above class differences, or whatever else.
Sepher, is it about if one notice RMT, in the meaning of chatspam or similar ways.
If so. What is the big deal with SOE adding RMT?
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
Many people did not notice the massive gold dupe in EQ2.
Does that somehow make it not a big deal?
How about looking at it this way.
Soe is once again doing something that will drive away players. Those are the people you share a community with and call friends. If this RMT is not a big deal as some keep claiming, then why not ask to get rid of it so that your fellow players and friends don't feel the need to leave? If it is not a big deal, then it shouldn't be a problem to not introduce it in the first place. Unless it is somehow a big enough deal to sit by and idly watch soe chase off more players for a game that is desperate for players.
How can it be possible that this will not effect gameplay when people are leaving and it sets up another ugly black eye that will sway people away from playing this game. That is not even touching on how things of this nature change the very motivation that people have while playing or the effects it will have on the economy/community.
Again, no.
Message board protests and all that mess means nothing. SOE doesn't care how "vet" their players are or tight-knit a community you believe you are. The only power a player ever has is their dollar; their words mean jack.
Trying to be some above the norm community is the exact OPPOSITE of what'd it'd take to discourage SOE from using RMT. "Let's stick together, endure it, express our displeasure, but still pay our sub fees and even solicit the game to others!".
C'mon, it's not like your sub amount shrinks a lil bit for every displeasure you get to share. Whether you're pissed or elated, you're paying the same thing.
You actually believe in your mind that Vanguard's players have a chance of playing a game more RMT free than other MMOs, and that's plain delusional. The company running Vanguard ENCOURAGES it now.
You try and spell out this mystical grey area of complexity on how to deal with RMT, but there is no grey area, the companies either uphold the three or so sentences in their Terms of Service condemning it or exclude such a thing by depending upon RMT (of course SOE tries to have their cake and eat it too by allowing RMT, but outlawing any other than their own) .
Companies like Blizzard and Mythic condemn it, and that's why according to your own words about WoW, you don't even notice RMT trade. Isn't that the BEST you can hope for in an MMO; never noticing that any RMT goes on? Ok then, it isn't so futile. Same goes for Mythic and their public ban-counter.
A company upholding their terms of service is enough to create play experiences where RMT is out of sight and out of mind. A company that's going to try and constantly convert you into a RMT user and broadcasting the benefits of such in-game through customers that do use it...well, that can never be out of sight or out of mind no matter how good or vet of a "community" the Vanguard players are.
WoW has the largest RMT market by far, it's completely over-taken WoW. Blizzard has done nothing to address this problem. Why?
My hope with Vanguard is that because RMT has never been a big problem and is relatively isolated that the community can stop it from infecting the game. I've quit 'another' MMOs because RMT runs rampant with bots farming everything, many players are purchased and the only way to compete it to engage in RMT. No thank you.
Just to show you how completely off base you are.
Go to www.peons4hire.com and watch how that redirects you to blizzards website to give you a nice big juicy anti-gold farming message. You see Blizzard took them to court and destroyed them. Out of business, dead. Can you tell me what soe has done to combat gold farmers in their games, because I don't see much effort on their part?
They also took to author of a major bot program to court... and won. He is finished and up the creek as a result. Major victory against gold famers and botters.
There have been several times when blizzard did massive bannings of farmers and botters. I read in becketts mmo magazine a story about one gold selling company. They talked about how blizzards mass bannings put many companies out of business and crippled the gold sellers for months. Just google "blizzard bans" and you will see many articles about 30k, 35k, 59k accounts being banned at a time.
You say blizzard hasn't done anything to stop gold farming (which just shows your ignorance to the subject at hand) and that it ruins their game.
Now soe legitimizes gold selling in their games and it is your HOPE the things will somehow work out?
You are displaying some really strange logic here. Keep in mind that soe has shown they cannot combat unattended macro playing in one of thier games so they offically let people do it. They also could not find a simple gold dupe in EQ2 for over a year, despite the players using nothing more than the eq2players website to pinpoint who the cheaters were.
Lets not have any great leaps of faith on behalf of soe doing something that won't somehow screw up gameplay. They certainly do not have a stunning track record in this regard.
Many people did not notice the massive gold dupe in EQ2.
Does that somehow make it not a big deal?
How about looking at it this way.
Soe is once again doing something that will drive away players. Those are the people you share a community with and call friends. If this RMT is not a big deal as some keep claiming, then why not ask to get rid of it so that your fellow players and friends don't feel the need to leave? If it is not a big deal, then it shouldn't be a problem to not introduce it in the first place. Unless it is somehow a big enough deal to sit by and idly watch soe chase off more players for a game that is desperate for players.
How can it be possible that this will not effect gameplay when people are leaving and it sets up another ugly black eye that will sway people away from playing this game. That is not even touching on how things of this nature change the very motivation that people have while playing or the effects it will have on the economy/community.
I have played EQ2 alot of times, I find the game fun. But even so I have never really gotten into it. And my highest character is lvl 15 deleted some and started others . I find it intriguing and have subbed for a month here and there, station pass. I don't have that many hours in that game so I know nothing about EQ2 goldfarmer (and such) and hope that I did not indirectly said I did.
But the question I asked Sepher is based on the impression that I got from the last posts concerning WoW and now with SOE doing RMT for Vanguard.
I care myself very little about RMT being added or not. And if SOE annoys their customer it is their problem. My problem aswell? -Why, I don't play a game out of sentimental value. Or just maybe they know something I don't. Are they doing this RMT thing with a common "trial & error" to see if it works out. :S
I Blizzard is in a very good position on this. Are they out of the discussion, so to speak, because they have other ground to stand on. Why are there capital invested in a company like Livegamer if Blizzards views holds the truth, the one and only. What do they see that Blizzard (obviously) don't?
Anyway the issue is not really about if one see a goldspammer in chat or not.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
I discuss if Livegamer is a big deal or not. That shouldn't make me a supporter.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
I discuss if Livegamer is a big deal or not. That shouldn't make me a supporter.
Being silent about something can be seen as condoning. Questioning whether it's a big deal or not and pushing for people to see it as not a big deal is certainly condoning. So yes, you are a supporter; in heart and monetarily through your sub fee being used to pay for RMT services.
Just to show you how completely off base you are.
Go to www.peons4hire.com and watch how that redirects you to blizzards website to give you a nice big juicy anti-gold farming message. You see Blizzard took them to court and destroyed them. Out of business, dead. Can you tell me what soe has done to combat gold farmers in their games, because I don't see much effort on their part?
They also took to author of a major bot program to court... and won. He is finished and up the creek as a result. Major victory against gold famers and botters.
There have been several times when blizzard did massive bannings of farmers and botters. I read in becketts mmo magazine a story about one gold selling company. They talked about how blizzards mass bannings put many companies out of business and crippled the gold sellers for months. Just google "blizzard bans" and you will see many articles about 30k, 35k, 59k accounts being banned at a time.
You say blizzard hasn't done anything to stop gold farming (which just shows your ignorance to the subject at hand) and that it ruins their game.
Now soe legitimizes gold selling in their games and it is your HOPE the things will somehow work out?
You are displaying some really strange logic here. Keep in mind that soe has shown they cannot combat unattended macro playing in one of thier games so they offically let people do it. They also could not find a simple gold dupe in EQ2 for over a year, despite the players using nothing more than the eq2players website to pinpoint who the cheaters were.
Lets not have any great leaps of faith on behalf of soe doing something that won't somehow screw up gameplay. They certainly do not have a stunning track record in this regard.
Thank you.
There's a difference between a company that takes your subscription money and uses it to invest into RMT, and one that uses it to fight RMT. A company that advertises RMT and a company that advertises banning tens of thousands of RMT participants at a time.
There's no padded edge to what SOE is doing; and it's quite foolish to believe they're doing this only to face some "futility" in fighting RMT, or that the move is entirely to provide a method of safe transactions between players. Since when has Vanguard's biggest problems in-game across the last two years been rampant gold farming? Since when were it's population troubles attributed mostly to stolen accounts from fraudulent RMT commerce? Get real, it's a money grab, and all these sudden feelings and beliefs of how futile the fight against RMT is are just a coping mechanism players will understandably need to continue playin'.
I discuss if Livegamer is a big deal or not. That shouldn't make me a supporter.
Being silent about something can be seen as condoning. Questioning whether it's a big deal or not and pushing for people to see it as not a big deal is certainly condoning. So yes, you are a supporter; in heart and monetarily through your sub fee being used to pay for RMT services.
The only answer is the one you behold. Disagreeing makes one into an adversary... you are with me or you are against me. Make your choice.
---------------------
- But please the girl is already crying and shocked. Stop yelling at her.
- So you support reckless driving?
(Alot things if missing there and can be discussed. How big of a deal was the reckless driving. Is it a constant thing done from the same person. And so on. And do anyone deserve to be treated like that (like what?) from a total stranger?)
- Well you are a sadist to find it enjoying to see people crying and thus making them so...
---------------------
Not even remotely close to be supporting RMT, not on the map here. And you should not really be able to tell if I'm supporting it or not.
Silent agreeing is a real big excuse for others to run over people, great.
On the other hand let say you are right. Twist it. And then as there obviously is a market for RMT. What is there to discuss, really, it must mean that it is a good thing as apperantly so many are using it.
Anyway, call me a supporter then aswell. pfft.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
Just to show you how completely off base you are.
Go to www.peons4hire.com and watch how that redirects you to blizzards website to give you a nice big juicy anti-gold farming message. You see Blizzard took them to court and destroyed them. Out of business, dead. Can you tell me what soe has done to combat gold farmers in their games, because I don't see much effort on their part?
They also took to author of a major bot program to court... and won. He is finished and up the creek as a result. Major victory against gold famers and botters.
There have been several times when blizzard did massive bannings of farmers and botters. I read in becketts mmo magazine a story about one gold selling company. They talked about how blizzards mass bannings put many companies out of business and crippled the gold sellers for months. Just google "blizzard bans" and you will see many articles about 30k, 35k, 59k accounts being banned at a time.
You say blizzard hasn't done anything to stop gold farming (which just shows your ignorance to the subject at hand) and that it ruins their game.
Now soe legitimizes gold selling in their games and it is your HOPE the things will somehow work out?
You are displaying some really strange logic here. Keep in mind that soe has shown they cannot combat unattended macro playing in one of thier games so they offically let people do it. They also could not find a simple gold dupe in EQ2 for over a year, despite the players using nothing more than the eq2players website to pinpoint who the cheaters were.
Lets not have any great leaps of faith on behalf of soe doing something that won't somehow screw up gameplay. They certainly do not have a stunning track record in this regard.
OK, let me simplify it.
Here are the ways I am impacted by RMT when playing Vanguard...... ....... ..... ........ the occasional gold-spam tell that sneaks through the spam filter. Other than that, RMT is a non-issue in Vanguard.
Here are the ways I was impacted by RMT when playing WoW. 1) Gold-bots running everywhere killing mobs, farming gold. I had to compete against that. 2) Interaction... giving tells to folks seeing if they wanted to group and finding out they were just bots or where being powered leveled to be sold. 3) I could barely sell anything on the market because the influx of purchased gold dramatically drove the prices down on items. 4) Gold spam and apparently no attempts to stop it, "10,000 gold for $65—one hour turnaround on most servers.” Heck even when I wasn't playing the game I was bombarded by magazine ads, internet ads etc. for gold and power-leveled characters advertisements.
It's completely out of control in WoW and it's a game breaker for me and many others.
Just to show you how completely off base you are.
Go to www.peons4hire.com and watch how that redirects you to blizzards website to give you a nice big juicy anti-gold farming message. You see Blizzard took them to court and destroyed them. Out of business, dead. Can you tell me what soe has done to combat gold farmers in their games, because I don't see much effort on their part?
They also took to author of a major bot program to court... and won. He is finished and up the creek as a result. Major victory against gold famers and botters.
There have been several times when blizzard did massive bannings of farmers and botters. I read in becketts mmo magazine a story about one gold selling company. They talked about how blizzards mass bannings put many companies out of business and crippled the gold sellers for months. Just google "blizzard bans" and you will see many articles about 30k, 35k, 59k accounts being banned at a time.
You say blizzard hasn't done anything to stop gold farming (which just shows your ignorance to the subject at hand) and that it ruins their game.
Now soe legitimizes gold selling in their games and it is your HOPE the things will somehow work out?
You are displaying some really strange logic here. Keep in mind that soe has shown they cannot combat unattended macro playing in one of thier games so they offically let people do it. They also could not find a simple gold dupe in EQ2 for over a year, despite the players using nothing more than the eq2players website to pinpoint who the cheaters were.
Lets not have any great leaps of faith on behalf of soe doing something that won't somehow screw up gameplay. They certainly do not have a stunning track record in this regard.
OK, let me simplify it.
Here are the ways I am impacted by RMT when playing Vanguard...... ....... ..... ........ the occasional gold-spam tell that sneaks through the spam filter. Other than that, RMT is a non-issue in Vanguard.
Here are the ways I was impacted by RMT when playing WoW. 1) Gold-bots running everywhere killing mobs, farming gold. I had to compete against that. 2) Interaction... giving tells to folks seeing if they wanted to group and finding out they were just bots or where being powered leveled to be sold. 3) I could barely sell anything on the market because the influx of purchased gold dramatically drove the prices down on items. 4) Gold spam and apparently no attempts to stop it, "10,000 gold for $65—one hour turnaround on most servers.” Heck even when I wasn't playing the game I was bombarded by magazine ads, internet ads etc. for gold and power-leveled characters advertisements.
It's completely out of control in WoW and it's a game breaker for me and many others.
As someone whos played WoW and FFXI RMT is a problem in only ONE of those games.
Heres a hint, its not WoW.
I have never asked someone to party only to find out their a bot or an RMT, frankly I find it hard to imagine that you did either. However if you were speaking of FFXI, RMT in that game pretty much made the game unplayable.
The AH on WoW is by nature easy to mess with, however I make plenty of gold every day without even trying in that game, the people who buy gold are just pathetically lazy.
As always the number one way to stop RMT?
STOP BUYING
Again, RMT in WoW is laughable, never had an issue, and seriously I've never had to camp against them or anything where they hindered my game play.
I seriously think you played a different game
Edit: How can you tell if someones being "power leveled to be sold" ??
Did the RMT say "Hey don't party with me, I'm PLing this guy to sell it!"
lawl?
I haven't played WoW in a year, but I know RMT is still driving people out of the game. And the realization that many of the characters around me were simply bots.... was because there was no response at all from them. What the hell does lawl mean?
Why on earth would I log into a game and treat it as work.
You obviously didn't read one word that I typed. Oh well, your loss.