I was one of those people who cancelled their account in an uproar over the RMT. I've also, after some thought, went back. Here's why.
First off, like others have said, RMT is the future. Like it or not. Asian grinders have proven it works, and the West is taking notes. Even the 800-pound Azerothian gorilla is dipping its toe in the waters with its 'Paid Character Customization'. If you staunchly refuse to play any game that has RMT, you'll find your choices dwindling rapidly.
Also, I realized that the whole 'RMT gives people an unfair advantage' argument is mostly crap. First off, it doesn't (not yet at least), and second, so what? Unless you're one of the 2-3% of players who are actively raiding end-game content on a regular basis, you're playing for fun, not to be competitive. Does the fact that this guy has a cool hood and I don't lessen the game for me enough that I want to quit or whip out my credit card? No, it doesn't.
The bottom line; EQ2 was fun before RMT. It's still fun after RMT, and until it becomes mandatory that I use it, I can just ignore that one little part of the game I don't agree with.
It doesn't buy much of anything, you can buy house pets and xp pots is about all, oh and crap visual clothes that offer no protection or bonuses. And for the guys who simply come here to trash soe, why don't you hang out in your own games forum, seems you have nothing better to do, and i wonder if sometimes the guys trashing eq2 are paid to do so by competitors. Ya you like wow, good for you. It has obviously had alot of success, but in the end there are many games on the market that are much better, maybe they don't have the popluation, but in the wise words of Wayne from Waynes world. Led Zepplin didn't need to be liked by everyone, they left that up to the Beegee's. I was mad about the market too, till i looked at what they sold, absolutely nothing that impacts the game.
I agree totally that this item shop is the future of mmorpg's (imho) however, it seems a little silly they have an item shop and a paid monthly sub - they need to make up there mind which it is going to be, people arn't going to pay for both.
Unless you're one of the 2-3% of players who are actively raiding end-game content on a regular basis, you're playing for fun, not to be competitive.
The problem with that thought, ZsasZ, is simply that it is completely wrong.
Go peruse EQ2players.com some time and look over the ranking boards. They break out the players on each server, by several metrics including kill-to-death ratio, first discoveries, most items crafted, etc.
SOE has institutionalized and promoted the idea that EQ2 is a competitive game. Just because you (and I, as I feel as you do) don't see it as a competition, that does not change the fact that a lot of the playerbase does, and the inclusion of the +exp pots and the other game-affecting purchasable items certainly does change that competitive playing field for them.
Just becuase they don't play and enjoy the game the exact same way that we do, does not mean that we should discount their playing style and the affect that the RMTs have had on it.
Unless you're one of the 2-3% of players who are actively raiding end-game content on a regular basis, you're playing for fun, not to be competitive.
The problem with that thought, ZsasZ, is simply that it is completely wrong.
Go peruse EQ2players.com some time and look over the ranking boards. They break out the players on each server, by several metrics including kill-to-death ratio, first discoveries, most items crafted, etc.
SOE has institutionalized and promoted the idea that EQ2 is a competitive game. Just because you (and I, as I feel as you do) don't see it as a competition, that does not change the fact that a lot of the playerbase does, and the inclusion of the +exp pots and the other game-affecting purchasable items certainly does change that competitive playing field for them.
Just becuase they don't play and enjoy the game the exact same way that we do, does not mean that we should discount their playing style and the affect that the RMTs have had on it.
Something to think about.
That's very true, I admit I may have made a broad generalization. Let me ask you, though; what are the chances (as things stand right now) of those rankings beings drastically altered *solely* based on RMT purchases?
Originally posted by eccoton If you noticed very few have responded negatively here without bringing up SWG, Smed's lieing, or treating customers bad. I was not talking about any of those things. Over and over on many threads I have said you have a right to feel that way. I simply see it different. You will never change that opinion just as I will never change yours. However this thread was about the item mall and it's future in EQ2 and mmos. Yes, I did ask people to rethink (plead as you like to put it) their reason's but the thread was more then that. Nothing I post will ever change anyone opinion about any game here. Nothing I say will keep EQ2 alive if SOE decides differently. Nothing I post here is all that important, just digital conversation on topics I find interesting.
People bring up smeds lies, swg and soe as a whole, because it is relevant to the topic. You cannot bring up a topic and ask everyone to ignore aspects that directly relate to it. You can't mark down replies to your thread for mentioning swg and how honest smed was in the past when you bring it up in the original post.
Honestly, it is not a personal/stalking issue with why I tend to post in topics with you and there are a number of threads I choose to ignore here [some of which you post in]. When I post is that I disagree with the way you tend to misrepresent things. The title of this thread for example.
Sure soe might need the money now, but we don't really know. However, you ignore their past history in these situations [station cash] being nearly identical during a time when they didn't "need" money. Soe has a rather dirty history of greed based decision which does relate to your topic. It seem the only way your plea and views about things like this seem plausable is if people ignore soes history, revise the history of what smed says and ignore many relevant issues the directly refute what you claim.
While we both have our opinions on matters, I feel that you tend to label facts as opinions sometimes or just flat out ignore them as entire theme of this thread is based on.
I still see no reason you have offered anyone that they should return to eq2. None of the factors with station cash (or any of the other past incidents with soe) that made them leave has changed or improved has it?
The message you are presenting is to ignore the past of soe, because they need money to survive the future. All the while you gloss over and/or ignore that the reason they are in this situation in the first place is because of their actions and ask everyone else to do the same.
Does rewarding a company with money for doing things that drive away customers make any sense at all to you? Would it not be simpler to have just tried to communicate with soe and ask them to change their ways to prevent this type of thing in the first place?
I still see no reason you have offered anyone that they should return to eq2. None of the factors with station cash (or any of the other past incidents with soe) that made them leave has changed or improved has it?
I'd like to comment on this
I agree with Daffid011 that nothing has changed about Station Cash to make it less controversial
if you were playing EQ2 before and didnt want the store -- you are not going to want it now either
I play SOE games and I enjoy them but I trust SOE as far as I can throw em
But it is immaterial to the point. For those who view EQ2 in a competitive light, SOE has introduced a game mechanic that will allow those with more money to gain an advantage (leveling faster without as much work and in less time). What that has done, obviously to them, is tip the playing field in an unfair manner.
I love analogies.
It would be as if we were pro baseball players and we each had the ability to give the umpire $10 when we were batting in order to "buy" another strike. What's one extra strike over nine innings? There can be up to 81 strikes in a nine-inning game! However, at some point, someone's money would run out, and the richer player would "win" (ie. in E2's case, not having to work as hard as others in order to get the same reward - whether that reward is quicker access to the end-game or whatever.)
The really interesting thing here is that SOE could defuse this entire issue, for the most part, by simply removing anything that affects gameplay in any manner whatsoever. That would simply be a few potions. If this were done, I doubt that any player would be concerned that another player paid $10 for the right to wear a bright pink bunny constume in-game. Of course SOE would still take the much deserved hit for the slimy way the RMTs were introduced, but the main affect of that introduction would be rendered moot.
But that's not the direction the game is going. It may well be that SOE realizes that EQ2 is a mature game and that with all their other releases they are not going to be able to spend the amount of resources that they once did on it. So in order to continue to cater to the player-base (which they should) they try to funnel the few (relatively) newcomers and the alts of the vets to the end-game as soon as possible.
That strategy makes sense, I guess. If it is true, it's just a shame that they went about it in the manner that they chose to do so. Their actions gave the people who distrust SOE a huge amount of ammunition to use against them, and left those of us who love the game but can see things clearly because we don't have our egos and self-image tied into the games success just shaking our heads.
Okay, one more analogy.
SOE at times reminds me of a bad D&D dungeonmaster. He has all the power, as he dictates to the players what the consequence of their actions are, but he can never, ever contemplate that he may have made a mistake or misjudged the affect to the game of one of his decisions. Luckily for a lot of people, there are other dungeonmasters in the neighborhood who are willing to let new people into their games. While those games might be better or worse, and probably come with their own set of problems, at some point the bad dm is going to start to wonder where everyone has gone.
the inclusion of the +exp pots and the other game-affecting purchasable items certainly does change that competitive playing field for them.
the "Recruit a friend" bonuses for both EQ2 and WOW
are more advantageous than the EQ2 Cashstore potions for leveling
Recruit a friend nets you triple experience for 3 months
Absolutely correct, Nadia. Good point.
However, everyone has an *equal* chance to induce their friends, families and neighbors to join the game, so that they can earn that triple experience.
Not everyone can afford to shell out the money for the +exp potions, which is the gist of the conflict.
the inclusion of the +exp pots and the other game-affecting purchasable items certainly does change that competitive playing field for them.
the "Recruit a friend" bonuses for both EQ2 and WOW
are more advantageous than the EQ2 Cashstore potions for leveling
Recruit a friend nets you triple experience for 3 months
Absolutely correct, Nadia. Good point.
However, everyone has an *equal* chance to induce their friends, families and neighbors to join the game, so that they can earn that triple experience.
Not everyone can afford to shell out the money for the +exp potions, which is the gist of the conflict.
(I have yet to see level 30, so if I'm off base, let me know)
Most 'hardcore ladder ranking' players should be at max level already. What does +XP do when you don't earn XP any more?
Right on! Now we got a discussion going. I knew it would happen eventually.
There do seem to be people Jeff44 that would not want the mall even if it only had bunny costumes. The argument has been raised more then once, that some feel it is about paying for content and to them, even if they did not wear it, the bunny costume is content.
the inclusion of the +exp pots and the other game-affecting purchasable items certainly does change that competitive playing field for them.
the "Recruit a friend" bonuses for both EQ2 and WOW
are more advantageous than the EQ2 Cashstore potions for leveling
Recruit a friend nets you triple experience for 3 months
Absolutely correct, Nadia. Good point.
However, everyone has an *equal* chance to induce their friends, families and neighbors to join the game, so that they can earn that triple experience.
Not everyone can afford to shell out the money for the +exp potions, which is the gist of the conflict.
I ask you this then. We are given +exp potions as veterans rewards. I have a bunch of them sitting in a bank slot. Why is it no one seems to have a problem with this? After all you did not earn them in game. They were given to us for spending money on SOE producted over x amount of time. I understand the argument against the mall based on "free content" more then someone leaving over some +exp potions which are recieved free by players as a reward for subscription longevity.
Originally posted by Daffid011 Does rewarding a company with money for doing things that drive away customers make any sense at all to you? Would it not be simpler to have just tried to communicate with soe and ask them to change their ways to prevent this type of thing in the first place?
Well not sure about this one Daffid011. No they should not be rewarded. However I do not see SOE and how they have done business the same way as you do. Now you can tell me facts prove otherwise but it is still opinion until SOE openly tells you exactly what they were doing and intending. I know you hate to hear this and totally disagree but I do not see this situation as unethical like you do. I have never said SOE has always done what is in the best interests of their customers. SWG is proof enough of that for me. I have said for me SOE has done more positive things then bad, that is why I can keep staying a customer. Nothing you can present to me will change that experience. Mine experiences were not yours or interpreted like yours. The only one who can change my opinion is SOE themselves.
Now as far as your question. Makes you really think doesn't it? In fact isn't that exactly what our government is doing right now with this bailout?
Not everyone can afford to shell out the money for the +exp potions, which is the gist of the conflict.
not everyone has players to recruit either -- similar issues
anyone with cash can buy their own extra accts to make "recruit a friend" function similar to a cash store
this applies to both EQ2 and WOW
both SOE and Blizzard allow the same player to use this promotion on multiple accts they own
The promotional offers are intended to gain new subscribers to the game [wow or eq2]. New players can have a difficult time spent level 80 levels by themselves and are more likely to quit if they are struggling to catch up to their friends, so the game developers offer an incentive for vets and their newbie friends to play together. This is designed to help retain new players through a sort of mentoring process, because it only works if they play together.
Sure some people can exploit that system, but that isn't the purpose of it and it would be rather impractical/impossible to regulate it against self use due to family situations. Maybe not, but I haven't thought about it to much, because it would takes a lot of effort, money and such in comparison.
The outcomes might be similar in nature to the potions, but they are by no means anywhere close in their intentions. Experience potions have no limit, no boundaries and are designed to directly effect gameplay. Furthermore they alter the way a developing company evaluates their game design process. By selling aftermarket potions of this nature it can become more lucrative to alter experience tables to nudge players towards buying more potions. That has a negative effect on non cash shop users as well. That is the trend of asian cash shop games also and this same situation applies if the company starts selling virtual items directly to players [of which you can already see happening in swg card game].
Sure some people can exploit that system, but that isn't the purpose of it and it would be rather impractical/impossible to regulate it against self use due to family situations. Maybe not, but I haven't thought about it to much, because it would takes a lot of effort, money and such in comparison.
others have thought about it
the 1st week this was announced
a poster at WOW forums on mmorpg.com demonstrated how others could take advantage of getting their own free mount with buying extra accounts
Note: This is the bare minimum, if you want BC you'll need to get either the WoW battle chest or the original WoW and the TBC box separately.
The total cost for me was $30 for the WoW battlechest (including TBC and strategy guides) and $30 for the 60 day GTC. So $60. If you wanted to do it without BC you could probably get by with $50.
Originally posted by Daffid011 Does rewarding a company with money for doing things that drive away customers make any sense at all to you? Would it not be simpler to have just tried to communicate with soe and ask them to change their ways to prevent this type of thing in the first place?
Well not sure about this one Daffid011. No they should not be rewarded. However I do not see SOE and how they have done business the same way as you do. Now you can tell me facts prove otherwise but it is still opinion until SOE openly tells you exactly what they were doing and intending. I know you hate to hear this and totally disagree but I do not see this situation as unethical like you do. I have never said SOE has always done what is in the best interests of their customers. SWG is proof enough of that for me. I have said for me SOE has done more positive things then bad, that is why I can keep staying a customer. Nothing you can present to me will change that experience. Mine experiences were not yours or interpreted like yours. The only one who can change my opinion is SOE themselves.
Now as far as your question. Makes you really think doesn't it? In fact isn't that exactly what our government is doing right now with this bailout?
How many times have soe employees said they knew they were going to lose players when they did something like this? They have made changes like this before and admitted they knew it would drive some players away (they just didn't know how many). It is not an opinion that soe knows this and they factor these things. Just because they didn't admit it yet in this case, doesn't mean they were not aware of it. That is exactly what I am talking about when I say you blur the lines or ignore facts. It isn't like soe doesn't have enough experience with these types of situations that they didn't know this would cause people to leave.
We really are not talking about opinions here. While some of it is, most of it is fairly clear cut. Your choice to not acknowledge it doesn't make it an opinion in the least. When soe has promised numerous times to communicate with their players more, especially in situations like this, and then they completely blind side the players with a middle of the night implementation of a cash shop into a subscription game. Do you think that is opinion just because soe didn't acknowledge that they broke their promise? Do you really think they are "listening" to their subscribers when they set up an opinion forum for discussion about the cash shop and then during an interview the same day the lead developer says in no uncertain terms that the cash shop is not going away. Is that opinon also?
Your choice to weight their good actions vs their bad actions doesn't make those bad actions any less bad. It isn't like they build up credit with good actions and then get to spend those credits lying to the customers and breaking multiple promises and people should accept that and continue to give them money for it. It does however fall in line with their pattern of behavior which you seem to think doesn't relate to this topic.
If you enjoy the game enough to overlook their business practices I am fine with that. I'm not here to change your mind or anything like that. I think we are both fairly set in our way and I know it will take some major changes at soe for me to regain some faith (which I really hope they do). So far soe has proven they are not willing to change and the reason of why they won't do not really matter.
Thier money situations nor their future plans for their mmos do not matter if they continually show they have no regards for trust, honesty and ethics with their playerbase. No volume of good deeds will change the fact that they keep breaking the bonds of trust with players and doing it intentionally. All companies make mistakes, but what soe does is intentional.
both SOE and Blizzard want to encourage people to make accounts (be it the same person or new people)
both mmos are allowing players to use cash to get ingame mounts and triple experience -- without involving other players
doesnt matter if that the intention or not, the promotion tool is fair game to anyone with cash and much cheaper for what you get (in comparison to potions on EQ2 Store)
90 days of triple experience and a free mount
Yes there is a difference in many ways even though they have limited similarities.
For one, potions do not require the operation of two accounts, two characters, two computers, etc. It is a pain in the ass in comparison.
Changing the rate of xp gain will not entice people to buy more accounts/computers and dual box character who have to be in the same level range to get xp (in wow) just to get more experience on monster kills only (again wow, not sure about what the xp bonus in eq2 goes towards), where it surely will get more people to buy more potions if every single player in the game suffers the same effects of an experience adjustment. The only difference is people who don't use the cash shop have to grind harder if they choose not to spend some extra money for no other reason that the companies bottom line.
Removing items from gameplay and attachting them to buying extra accounts wont really increase profits as it will most likely drive people away if they keep having to buy accounts for special perks (see swg). Whereas people expect new items to be added to cash shops.
The recruit a friend benefits are a side effect if people choose to spend cash on them. Potentially that hole could be filled and stopped. As I stated earlier, I don't know how that would be done. While limited similarities can be attained [and I do mean very limited], I don't think either company is going to bend and twist item drops and experience tables to entice people to buy second accounts and play two characters just to remain on par with what they have or get a small boost.
Things would be much easier if they did plug the hole with the refer a friend accounts. I doubt people would object.
The recruit a friend promo has lessened the impact of people leaving becuase of the station cash malarky of that i'm sure,but once that ends (if it indeed does) then the true impact of it (or not) will be seen.
SOE practically copied the WOW promotion - I doubt either are going to end
Changing the rate of xp gain will not entice people to buy more accounts/computers and dual box character who have to be in the same level range to get xp (in wow) just to get more experience on monster kills only (again wow, not sure about what the xp bonus in eq2 goes towards), where it surely will get more people to buy more potions if every single player in the game suffers the same effects of an experience adjustment. The only difference is people who don't use the cash shop have to grind harder if they choose not to spend some extra money for no other reason that the companies bottom line. Removing items from gameplay and attachting them to buying extra accounts wont really increase profits as it will most likely drive people away if they keep having to buy accounts for special perks (see swg). Whereas people expect new items to be added to cash shops.
this side steps a different issue
what you are implying is that its OK for family and friends to level at the FASTEST speeds in game
- no problem with that? nothing unfair about that ?
and its not ok for a solo player to use a store potion
which is not as fast as anyone being able to use the "recruit a friend" benefits
whether you want to admit it or not
Recruit a Friend is the most advantageous method in game to level up FAST
to use it, you need to know someone or have cash to use more than 1 computer
if you dont know anyone to recruit or dont have the cash -- take a seat to the backline
I will be honest with you. I have no problem with new players leveling faster to catch up with friends or whatever. There are many times in wow that I wish I could have mentored or power leveled some friends. Not hand free experience with potions or some promo benefit, but actually help them. The concept of someone leveling faster than I did doesn't bother me. I don't play to compete, but I don't want developers playing fast and loose with game mechanics in order to push me into buying widgits that they have complete control of. I expect game makers to challenge me for my subscription fee, not use it to make systems to push me into spending more money for something I was already getting.
The new account system is flawed for sure and I would rather see it changed, but I don't see it as anywhere near the level of a cash shop. Read that again, cash shop vs subscription drive. The subscription benefit might make it the fastest way, but it takes far more effort, coordination, time managament and such to execute that it doesn't make a realistic possibility for many people. It is an unintended side effect. The cash shop is a direct and purposeful action to drive money for virtual sales/gain to players. The only way the cash shop works is by denying players content and only offering it for sale at a fee above and beyond the normal subscription fee.
To recap, I don't care if companies make xp potions and put them in game. As long as they are earned with ingame mechanics that is fine. The same with items. Removing them or playing funny with game mechanics to "offer" people items for sale is just greedy. There is no excuse for it in a subscription game.
Comments
I was one of those people who cancelled their account in an uproar over the RMT. I've also, after some thought, went back. Here's why.
The bottom line; EQ2 was fun before RMT. It's still fun after RMT, and until it becomes mandatory that I use it, I can just ignore that one little part of the game I don't agree with.
Evil will always win, because Good is dumb.
It doesn't buy much of anything, you can buy house pets and xp pots is about all, oh and crap visual clothes that offer no protection or bonuses. And for the guys who simply come here to trash soe, why don't you hang out in your own games forum, seems you have nothing better to do, and i wonder if sometimes the guys trashing eq2 are paid to do so by competitors. Ya you like wow, good for you. It has obviously had alot of success, but in the end there are many games on the market that are much better, maybe they don't have the popluation, but in the wise words of Wayne from Waynes world. Led Zepplin didn't need to be liked by everyone, they left that up to the Beegee's. I was mad about the market too, till i looked at what they sold, absolutely nothing that impacts the game.
I agree totally that this item shop is the future of mmorpg's (imho) however, it seems a little silly they have an item shop and a paid monthly sub - they need to make up there mind which it is going to be, people arn't going to pay for both.
The problem with that thought, ZsasZ, is simply that it is completely wrong.
Go peruse EQ2players.com some time and look over the ranking boards. They break out the players on each server, by several metrics including kill-to-death ratio, first discoveries, most items crafted, etc.
SOE has institutionalized and promoted the idea that EQ2 is a competitive game. Just because you (and I, as I feel as you do) don't see it as a competition, that does not change the fact that a lot of the playerbase does, and the inclusion of the +exp pots and the other game-affecting purchasable items certainly does change that competitive playing field for them.
Just becuase they don't play and enjoy the game the exact same way that we do, does not mean that we should discount their playing style and the affect that the RMTs have had on it.
Something to think about.
the "Recruit a friend" bonuses for both EQ2 and WOW
are more advantageous than the EQ2 Cashstore potions for leveling
Recruit a friend nets you triple experience for 3 months
EQ2 fan sites
The problem with that thought, ZsasZ, is simply that it is completely wrong.
Go peruse EQ2players.com some time and look over the ranking boards. They break out the players on each server, by several metrics including kill-to-death ratio, first discoveries, most items crafted, etc.
SOE has institutionalized and promoted the idea that EQ2 is a competitive game. Just because you (and I, as I feel as you do) don't see it as a competition, that does not change the fact that a lot of the playerbase does, and the inclusion of the +exp pots and the other game-affecting purchasable items certainly does change that competitive playing field for them.
Just becuase they don't play and enjoy the game the exact same way that we do, does not mean that we should discount their playing style and the affect that the RMTs have had on it.
Something to think about.
That's very true, I admit I may have made a broad generalization. Let me ask you, though; what are the chances (as things stand right now) of those rankings beings drastically altered *solely* based on RMT purchases?
Evil will always win, because Good is dumb.
People bring up smeds lies, swg and soe as a whole, because it is relevant to the topic. You cannot bring up a topic and ask everyone to ignore aspects that directly relate to it. You can't mark down replies to your thread for mentioning swg and how honest smed was in the past when you bring it up in the original post.
Honestly, it is not a personal/stalking issue with why I tend to post in topics with you and there are a number of threads I choose to ignore here [some of which you post in]. When I post is that I disagree with the way you tend to misrepresent things. The title of this thread for example.
Sure soe might need the money now, but we don't really know. However, you ignore their past history in these situations [station cash] being nearly identical during a time when they didn't "need" money. Soe has a rather dirty history of greed based decision which does relate to your topic. It seem the only way your plea and views about things like this seem plausable is if people ignore soes history, revise the history of what smed says and ignore many relevant issues the directly refute what you claim.
While we both have our opinions on matters, I feel that you tend to label facts as opinions sometimes or just flat out ignore them as entire theme of this thread is based on.
I still see no reason you have offered anyone that they should return to eq2. None of the factors with station cash (or any of the other past incidents with soe) that made them leave has changed or improved has it?
The message you are presenting is to ignore the past of soe, because they need money to survive the future. All the while you gloss over and/or ignore that the reason they are in this situation in the first place is because of their actions and ask everyone else to do the same.
Does rewarding a company with money for doing things that drive away customers make any sense at all to you? Would it not be simpler to have just tried to communicate with soe and ask them to change their ways to prevent this type of thing in the first place?
I'd like to comment on this
I agree with Daffid011 that nothing has changed about Station Cash to make it less controversial
if you were playing EQ2 before and didnt want the store -- you are not going to want it now either
I play SOE games and I enjoy them but I trust SOE as far as I can throw em
EQ2 fan sites
It would take a lot of money, ZsasZ.
But it is immaterial to the point. For those who view EQ2 in a competitive light, SOE has introduced a game mechanic that will allow those with more money to gain an advantage (leveling faster without as much work and in less time). What that has done, obviously to them, is tip the playing field in an unfair manner.
I love analogies.
It would be as if we were pro baseball players and we each had the ability to give the umpire $10 when we were batting in order to "buy" another strike. What's one extra strike over nine innings? There can be up to 81 strikes in a nine-inning game! However, at some point, someone's money would run out, and the richer player would "win" (ie. in E2's case, not having to work as hard as others in order to get the same reward - whether that reward is quicker access to the end-game or whatever.)
The really interesting thing here is that SOE could defuse this entire issue, for the most part, by simply removing anything that affects gameplay in any manner whatsoever. That would simply be a few potions. If this were done, I doubt that any player would be concerned that another player paid $10 for the right to wear a bright pink bunny constume in-game. Of course SOE would still take the much deserved hit for the slimy way the RMTs were introduced, but the main affect of that introduction would be rendered moot.
But that's not the direction the game is going. It may well be that SOE realizes that EQ2 is a mature game and that with all their other releases they are not going to be able to spend the amount of resources that they once did on it. So in order to continue to cater to the player-base (which they should) they try to funnel the few (relatively) newcomers and the alts of the vets to the end-game as soon as possible.
That strategy makes sense, I guess. If it is true, it's just a shame that they went about it in the manner that they chose to do so. Their actions gave the people who distrust SOE a huge amount of ammunition to use against them, and left those of us who love the game but can see things clearly because we don't have our egos and self-image tied into the games success just shaking our heads.
Okay, one more analogy.
SOE at times reminds me of a bad D&D dungeonmaster. He has all the power, as he dictates to the players what the consequence of their actions are, but he can never, ever contemplate that he may have made a mistake or misjudged the affect to the game of one of his decisions. Luckily for a lot of people, there are other dungeonmasters in the neighborhood who are willing to let new people into their games. While those games might be better or worse, and probably come with their own set of problems, at some point the bad dm is going to start to wonder where everyone has gone.
Best to you.
the "Recruit a friend" bonuses for both EQ2 and WOW
are more advantageous than the EQ2 Cashstore potions for leveling
Recruit a friend nets you triple experience for 3 months
Absolutely correct, Nadia. Good point.
However, everyone has an *equal* chance to induce their friends, families and neighbors to join the game, so that they can earn that triple experience.
Not everyone can afford to shell out the money for the +exp potions, which is the gist of the conflict.
nm - posted too soon
EQ2 fan sites
not everyone has players to recruit either -- similar issues
anyone with cash can buy their own extra accts to make "recruit a friend" function similar to a cash store
this applies to both EQ2 and WOW
both SOE and Blizzard allow the same player to use this promotion on multiple accts they own
EQ2 fan sites
the "Recruit a friend" bonuses for both EQ2 and WOW
are more advantageous than the EQ2 Cashstore potions for leveling
Recruit a friend nets you triple experience for 3 months
Absolutely correct, Nadia. Good point.
However, everyone has an *equal* chance to induce their friends, families and neighbors to join the game, so that they can earn that triple experience.
Not everyone can afford to shell out the money for the +exp potions, which is the gist of the conflict.
(I have yet to see level 30, so if I'm off base, let me know)
Most 'hardcore ladder ranking' players should be at max level already. What does +XP do when you don't earn XP any more?
Evil will always win, because Good is dumb.
Right on! Now we got a discussion going. I knew it would happen eventually.
There do seem to be people Jeff44 that would not want the mall even if it only had bunny costumes. The argument has been raised more then once, that some feel it is about paying for content and to them, even if they did not wear it, the bunny costume is content.
the "Recruit a friend" bonuses for both EQ2 and WOW
are more advantageous than the EQ2 Cashstore potions for leveling
Recruit a friend nets you triple experience for 3 months
Absolutely correct, Nadia. Good point.
However, everyone has an *equal* chance to induce their friends, families and neighbors to join the game, so that they can earn that triple experience.
Not everyone can afford to shell out the money for the +exp potions, which is the gist of the conflict.
I ask you this then. We are given +exp potions as veterans rewards. I have a bunch of them sitting in a bank slot. Why is it no one seems to have a problem with this? After all you did not earn them in game. They were given to us for spending money on SOE producted over x amount of time. I understand the argument against the mall based on "free content" more then someone leaving over some +exp potions which are recieved free by players as a reward for subscription longevity.
Well not sure about this one Daffid011. No they should not be rewarded. However I do not see SOE and how they have done business the same way as you do. Now you can tell me facts prove otherwise but it is still opinion until SOE openly tells you exactly what they were doing and intending. I know you hate to hear this and totally disagree but I do not see this situation as unethical like you do. I have never said SOE has always done what is in the best interests of their customers. SWG is proof enough of that for me. I have said for me SOE has done more positive things then bad, that is why I can keep staying a customer. Nothing you can present to me will change that experience. Mine experiences were not yours or interpreted like yours. The only one who can change my opinion is SOE themselves.
Now as far as your question. Makes you really think doesn't it? In fact isn't that exactly what our government is doing right now with this bailout?
not everyone has players to recruit either -- similar issues
anyone with cash can buy their own extra accts to make "recruit a friend" function similar to a cash store
this applies to both EQ2 and WOW
both SOE and Blizzard allow the same player to use this promotion on multiple accts they own
The promotional offers are intended to gain new subscribers to the game [wow or eq2]. New players can have a difficult time spent level 80 levels by themselves and are more likely to quit if they are struggling to catch up to their friends, so the game developers offer an incentive for vets and their newbie friends to play together. This is designed to help retain new players through a sort of mentoring process, because it only works if they play together.
Sure some people can exploit that system, but that isn't the purpose of it and it would be rather impractical/impossible to regulate it against self use due to family situations. Maybe not, but I haven't thought about it to much, because it would takes a lot of effort, money and such in comparison.
The outcomes might be similar in nature to the potions, but they are by no means anywhere close in their intentions. Experience potions have no limit, no boundaries and are designed to directly effect gameplay. Furthermore they alter the way a developing company evaluates their game design process. By selling aftermarket potions of this nature it can become more lucrative to alter experience tables to nudge players towards buying more potions. That has a negative effect on non cash shop users as well. That is the trend of asian cash shop games also and this same situation applies if the company starts selling virtual items directly to players [of which you can already see happening in swg card game].
others have thought about it
the 1st week this was announced
a poster at WOW forums on mmorpg.com demonstrated how others could take advantage of getting their own free mount with buying extra accounts
How to get an Epic Zhevra Mount
www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/193625
How to get an Epic Zhevra Mount:
Note: This is the bare minimum, if you want BC you'll need to get either the WoW battle chest or the original WoW and the TBC box separately.
The total cost for me was $30 for the WoW battlechest (including TBC and strategy guides) and $30 for the 60 day GTC. So $60. If you wanted to do it without BC you could probably get by with $50.
EQ2 fan sites
both SOE and Blizzard want to encourage people to make accounts (be it the same person or new people)
both mmos are allowing players to use cash to get ingame mounts and triple experience
-- without involving other players
doesnt matter if that the intention or not, the promotion tool is fair game to anyone with cash
and much cheaper for what you get (in comparison to potions on EQ2 Store)
90 days of triple experience and a free mount
for every new acct the same player pays for
EQ2 fan sites
Well not sure about this one Daffid011. No they should not be rewarded. However I do not see SOE and how they have done business the same way as you do. Now you can tell me facts prove otherwise but it is still opinion until SOE openly tells you exactly what they were doing and intending. I know you hate to hear this and totally disagree but I do not see this situation as unethical like you do. I have never said SOE has always done what is in the best interests of their customers. SWG is proof enough of that for me. I have said for me SOE has done more positive things then bad, that is why I can keep staying a customer. Nothing you can present to me will change that experience. Mine experiences were not yours or interpreted like yours. The only one who can change my opinion is SOE themselves.
Now as far as your question. Makes you really think doesn't it? In fact isn't that exactly what our government is doing right now with this bailout?
How many times have soe employees said they knew they were going to lose players when they did something like this? They have made changes like this before and admitted they knew it would drive some players away (they just didn't know how many). It is not an opinion that soe knows this and they factor these things. Just because they didn't admit it yet in this case, doesn't mean they were not aware of it. That is exactly what I am talking about when I say you blur the lines or ignore facts. It isn't like soe doesn't have enough experience with these types of situations that they didn't know this would cause people to leave.
We really are not talking about opinions here. While some of it is, most of it is fairly clear cut. Your choice to not acknowledge it doesn't make it an opinion in the least. When soe has promised numerous times to communicate with their players more, especially in situations like this, and then they completely blind side the players with a middle of the night implementation of a cash shop into a subscription game. Do you think that is opinion just because soe didn't acknowledge that they broke their promise? Do you really think they are "listening" to their subscribers when they set up an opinion forum for discussion about the cash shop and then during an interview the same day the lead developer says in no uncertain terms that the cash shop is not going away. Is that opinon also?
Your choice to weight their good actions vs their bad actions doesn't make those bad actions any less bad. It isn't like they build up credit with good actions and then get to spend those credits lying to the customers and breaking multiple promises and people should accept that and continue to give them money for it. It does however fall in line with their pattern of behavior which you seem to think doesn't relate to this topic.
If you enjoy the game enough to overlook their business practices I am fine with that. I'm not here to change your mind or anything like that. I think we are both fairly set in our way and I know it will take some major changes at soe for me to regain some faith (which I really hope they do). So far soe has proven they are not willing to change and the reason of why they won't do not really matter.
Thier money situations nor their future plans for their mmos do not matter if they continually show they have no regards for trust, honesty and ethics with their playerbase. No volume of good deeds will change the fact that they keep breaking the bonds of trust with players and doing it intentionally. All companies make mistakes, but what soe does is intentional.
Yes there is a difference in many ways even though they have limited similarities.
For one, potions do not require the operation of two accounts, two characters, two computers, etc. It is a pain in the ass in comparison.
Changing the rate of xp gain will not entice people to buy more accounts/computers and dual box character who have to be in the same level range to get xp (in wow) just to get more experience on monster kills only (again wow, not sure about what the xp bonus in eq2 goes towards), where it surely will get more people to buy more potions if every single player in the game suffers the same effects of an experience adjustment. The only difference is people who don't use the cash shop have to grind harder if they choose not to spend some extra money for no other reason that the companies bottom line.
Removing items from gameplay and attachting them to buying extra accounts wont really increase profits as it will most likely drive people away if they keep having to buy accounts for special perks (see swg). Whereas people expect new items to be added to cash shops.
The recruit a friend benefits are a side effect if people choose to spend cash on them. Potentially that hole could be filled and stopped. As I stated earlier, I don't know how that would be done. While limited similarities can be attained [and I do mean very limited], I don't think either company is going to bend and twist item drops and experience tables to entice people to buy second accounts and play two characters just to remain on par with what they have or get a small boost.
Things would be much easier if they did plug the hole with the refer a friend accounts. I doubt people would object.
SOE practically copied the WOW promotion - I doubt either are going to end
Blizzard
www.massively.com/2008/08/05/blizzard-unveils-changes-to-wow-recruit-a-friend-program/
SOE
everquest2.station.sony.com/recruit-a-friend.vm
Blizzard goes one step further with allowing each recruit to grant up to 30 FREE levels to the Vet Acct
(if vet character is under 60)
but the promotions are very similar
I'm glad it wasnt just me that thought that about the RAF promo,being well similar to WOWs
this side steps a different issue
what you are implying is that its OK for family and friends to level at the FASTEST speeds in game
- no problem with that? nothing unfair about that ?
and its not ok for a solo player to use a store potion
which is not as fast as anyone being able to use the "recruit a friend" benefits
whether you want to admit it or not
Recruit a Friend is the most advantageous method in game to level up FAST
to use it, you need to know someone or have cash to use more than 1 computer
if you dont know anyone to recruit or dont have the cash -- take a seat to the backline
EQ2 fan sites
Friends and family do not make the leveling benefits of Recruit a Friend "more right"
you do not need to multi-box to get your triple experience benefits
- just need an ingame friend to share the benefits with you
neither of these promotions (EQ2 and WOW) should have been awarding triple exp for 90 days
but both mmos chose to do this to entice people to create new accounts for the game
Ive seen other gamers complain that "out of game" promotions should not affect ingame play
do you agree ?
Recruit a Friend is an "out of game" promotion
that dramatically affects ingame play leveling speeds and you get a free unique epic mount
in fact, its the only way to get this unique mount
-- you have to use the "out of game" promotion
EQ2 fan sites
I will be honest with you. I have no problem with new players leveling faster to catch up with friends or whatever. There are many times in wow that I wish I could have mentored or power leveled some friends. Not hand free experience with potions or some promo benefit, but actually help them. The concept of someone leveling faster than I did doesn't bother me. I don't play to compete, but I don't want developers playing fast and loose with game mechanics in order to push me into buying widgits that they have complete control of. I expect game makers to challenge me for my subscription fee, not use it to make systems to push me into spending more money for something I was already getting.
The new account system is flawed for sure and I would rather see it changed, but I don't see it as anywhere near the level of a cash shop. Read that again, cash shop vs subscription drive. The subscription benefit might make it the fastest way, but it takes far more effort, coordination, time managament and such to execute that it doesn't make a realistic possibility for many people. It is an unintended side effect. The cash shop is a direct and purposeful action to drive money for virtual sales/gain to players. The only way the cash shop works is by denying players content and only offering it for sale at a fee above and beyond the normal subscription fee.
To recap, I don't care if companies make xp potions and put them in game. As long as they are earned with ingame mechanics that is fine. The same with items. Removing them or playing funny with game mechanics to "offer" people items for sale is just greedy. There is no excuse for it in a subscription game.