Originally posted by Josher What does Iraq have to do with bad mortgages and their trickle down anyway, which BUSH had zero responsibility for.
If we don't spend BILLIONS in Iraq trying to find Bin Laden (where he wasn't), the economy is not so bad. When the economy does shrink, as all do from time to time, you have saved up capital in the bank to throw at it. The money we are spending in the bailouts now is only a trickle of what we spent the last 8 years. Bush has been a bigger spender than any Democratic president we've ever had and that is a fact. He's made the most government ever.
We don't spend money chasing ghosties and bad guys, we have more to weather the tougher times like now. But now we're spending billions on Iraq AND billions on the economy at the same time, thanks to W. Pretty simple really to figure out.
What does Iraq have to do with bad mortgages and their trickle down anyway, which BUSH had zero responsibility for.
If we don't spend BILLIONS in Iraq trying to find Bin Laden (where he wasn't), the economy is not so bad. When the economy does shrink, as all do from time to time, you have saved up capital in the bank to throw at it. The money we are spending in the bailouts now is only a trickle of what we spent the last 8 years. Bush has been a bigger spender than any Democratic president we've ever had and that is a fact. He's made the most government ever.
We don't spend money chasing ghosties and bad guys, we have more to weather the tougher times like now. But now we're spending billions on Iraq AND billions on the economy at the same time, thanks to W. Pretty simple really to figure out.
No joke! 550 billion dollars a year could come in real handy right about now.
Our economy was going to go in the same direction regardless of a war or not. War? This war is a joke compared to real wars. What does Iraq have to do with bad mortgages and their trickle down anyway, which BUSH had zero responsibility for. THATs the problem. CEOs playing Monopoly with real people. Gas prices mean didly squat. You think the war even had much to do with that? China had more to do with gas prices than we did. I'll take a defiicit over US citizens being blown up weekly if we did nothing. Maybe someone in your family needed to be killed during 9-11 to see that you don't let a war come to your shores. You keep it on THEIRS. Want to see a crisis? Imagine if we did nothing like the libs wanted and our schools and malls started blowing up instead of HumVs over in Iraq, which is exactly what would've started happening if we sat on our hands with our heads in the sand. Check that. The Libs wanted us to go in just like everyone else, ya hypocrites!! You want to see a recession? How about an Apocalypse? Imagine no kids in schools, no one willing to leave their homes? Enjoy tanks in the streets going house to house after Muslims, innocent or not. You wouldn't be so happy then would ya, hippy? People in the middle east are used to a life like that growing up in it. You think the average American could handle it? We're far too soft. Thank the libs and MS media for turning us into cookie dough. The sad thing is, we probably need another 9-11 to wake people up again...god forbid. But the libs will probably want to go sing kumbaya and hold hands with people who danced in the streets as our towers were crumbling down or talk with a man thats stated time and time again that the Holocaust NEVER happened and wants every Israeli DEAD. You think talking to a man like that matters? How clueless are you?
Vary well said Josher..
Trade in material assumptions for spiritual facts and make permanent progress.
Our economy was going to go in the same direction regardless of a war or not. War? This war is a joke compared to real wars. What does Iraq have to do with bad mortgages and their trickle down anyway, which BUSH had zero responsibility for. THATs the problem. CEOs playing Monopoly with real people. Gas prices mean didly squat. You think the war even had much to do with that? China had more to do with gas prices than we did. I'll take a defiicit over US citizens being blown up weekly if we did nothing. Maybe someone in your family needed to be killed during 9-11 to see that you don't let a war come to your shores. You keep it on THEIRS. Want to see a crisis? Imagine if we did nothing like the libs wanted and our schools and malls started blowing up instead of HumVs over in Iraq, which is exactly what would've started happening if we sat on our hands with our heads in the sand. Check that. The Libs wanted us to go in just like everyone else, ya hypocrites!! You want to see a recession? How about an Apocalypse? Imagine no kids in schools, no one willing to leave their homes? Enjoy tanks in the streets going house to house after Muslims, innocent or not. You wouldn't be so happy then would ya, hippy? People in the middle east are used to a life like that growing up in it. You think the average American could handle it? We're far too soft. Thank the libs and MS media for turning us into cookie dough. The sad thing is, we probably need another 9-11 to wake people up again...god forbid. But the libs will probably want to go sing kumbaya and hold hands with people who danced in the streets as our towers were crumbling down or talk with a man thats stated time and time again that the Holocaust NEVER happened and wants every Israeli DEAD. You think talking to a man like that matters? How clueless are you?
Wow....I mean wow! You really have swallowed the Kool-aid and left none for anyone else. But even so you do have quite a vivid imagination.
Buy my favorite part was when you called me a hippy! Peace...love...dove, man!
"News report reveals billions wasted in Iraq and Afghanistan".
Turns out there are at least some 154 ongoing criminal investigations into fraud of taxpayer monies during the war, with possibly more to come. Since 2003, the Pentagon, State Dept, and USAID paid over $100 billion to contractors. Charges of theft, bribery, defective products, bid rigging, and conficts of interest are flying.
The funny thing is that before the war, the Bush Administration projected a $2.4 Billion dollar tag for reconstruction, but yet we've gone way over that. Whoops. Baiting and switching during the Bush years?
People who still think the Bush Adminstration had nothing to do with the current economic problems in the U.S. should never be allowed to vote again. They clearly ignore facts when they are in abundance and are incapable of making adult decisions, but would rather play the "morality" card.
"US President Barack Obama's offer to talk to Iran shows that America's policy of "domination" has failed, the government spokesman said on Saturday.
"This request means Western ideology has become passive, that capitalist thought and the system of domination have failed," Gholam Hossein Elham was quoted as saying by the Mehr news agency. "Negotiation is secondary, the main issue is that there is no way but for (the United States) to change," he added.
Sounds vaguely familiar..... Isn't that what the Japanese though right before launching themselves at us? I mean those guys had hide themselves away from all other forms of human life for at least 10,000 years. I can kind of understand them thinking that. Iran /Persia has been their for the Greeks, Romans, Khans, Huns, and whoever else.
Hell, this "private" war they are waging with Israel is going horrible for them even, and they want to spice things up now?
Good luck guys, hope you really don't think like the Jap's did, That the US is nothing but playboys and sit-back do nothing slobs, they learned a hard lesson thinking like that.
"News report reveals billions wasted in Iraq and Afghanistan". Turns out there are at least some 154 ongoing criminal investigations into fraud of taxpayer monies during the war, with possibly more to come. Since 2003, the Pentagon, State Dept, and USAID paid over $100 billion to contractors. Charges of theft, bribery, defective products, bid rigging, and conficts of interest are flying. The funny thing is that before the war, the Bush Administration projected a $2.4 Billion dollar tag for reconstruction, but yet we've gone way over that. Whoops. Baiting and switching during the Bush years? People who still think the Bush Adminstration had nothing to do with the current economic problems in the U.S. should never be allowed to vote again. They clearly ignore facts when they are in abundance and are incapable of making adult decisions, but would rather play the "morality" card.
you really don't have a clue what you are talking about... AT ALL.
find out who was in charge of fannie mae and fredie mac before you waste our time.
"News report reveals billions wasted in Iraq and Afghanistan". Turns out there are at least some 154 ongoing criminal investigations into fraud of taxpayer monies during the war, with possibly more to come. Since 2003, the Pentagon, State Dept, and USAID paid over $100 billion to contractors. Charges of theft, bribery, defective products, bid rigging, and conficts of interest are flying. The funny thing is that before the war, the Bush Administration projected a $2.4 Billion dollar tag for reconstruction, but yet we've gone way over that. Whoops. Baiting and switching during the Bush years? People who still think the Bush Adminstration had nothing to do with the current economic problems in the U.S. should never be allowed to vote again. They clearly ignore facts when they are in abundance and are incapable of making adult decisions, but would rather play the "morality" card.
you really don't have a clue what you are talking about... AT ALL. find out who was in charge of fannie mae and fredie mac before you waste our time.
I didn't mention Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac in this news story about wasting of taxpayer monies in Iraq. Are you sure you're replying to the right post?
"News report reveals billions wasted in Iraq and Afghanistan". Turns out there are at least some 154 ongoing criminal investigations into fraud of taxpayer monies during the war, with possibly more to come. Since 2003, the Pentagon, State Dept, and USAID paid over $100 billion to contractors. Charges of theft, bribery, defective products, bid rigging, and conficts of interest are flying. The funny thing is that before the war, the Bush Administration projected a $2.4 Billion dollar tag for reconstruction, but yet we've gone way over that. Whoops. Baiting and switching during the Bush years? People who still think the Bush Adminstration had nothing to do with the current economic problems in the U.S. should never be allowed to vote again. They clearly ignore facts when they are in abundance and are incapable of making adult decisions, but would rather play the "morality" card.
How bout a link. What are the specific charges aginst whom? You guys absolutely kill me! Again, where are the lefty spending hawks screaming about the Stimulas bill!?!?!?!? Really, admit it, you don't care about all the money. You just hate Bush.
Guess what. Spending on wars ends. Military gets downsized and grown unlike any other part of government. You ought to ask yourself why we have contractors instead of military doing these jobs. Now the boondoggle non-stimulating "stimulas" bill. That will have long lasting effects and no one will be charged with anything because it is the government pissing away the money. This one will have no one to blame but Democrates though. Of course it will all be forgotten because it is a Democrate bill.
Iraq wasn't the cause of 9-11 but it sure wasn't helping matters was it? You know those people who NEVER voted int their lives are actually voting now. They're not being wisked away and shot whenever they speak their mind. So when Iraq turns itself into a thriving democracy, similar to Isreal and we have 2 Allies in the middle east, please explain how that money was wasted? Go ahead.
OR, how about imagining for a split second a few years from now. Lets make it 10. Sadam is still in power, because he's not dead anymore because we never did anything. But now, his army is much greater AND he has a nuke and is threatening Isreal. Throw an even stronger Iran on the table. Not hard to imagine right? Never happened before right? How much do you think we'll have to spend on a war then? How many lives do you think will be lost going up against a full fledged army instead of the pathetic mess that was there when we walked right in with hardly a casualty? How many US soldier do you think would die in a REAL war when the enemy is ready for us? You think a lot of soldiers have died in Iraq? You see, your ignorant Lib brain that can't see a few feet past your nose and can't possibly comprehend how much cheaper attacking a weak nation is that was flaunting supposed WMDs and threatening us. You know the whole world figured he had them. It wasn't just us. You know it wouldn't have been hard to move them, considering how much time he had to do it. Iran wouldn't have gladly taken them right? The thousands that died in Sadam's gas bombings didn't just fall over on their own. All the signs were there. It wasn't completely unthinkable.
So, do you keep waiting and just ignore the rantings of a nut and keep saying "you're crazy, you won't do it" year after year. Do you just wait for something really bad to happen to us instead? You know, like what Clinton did? Thats what waiting around got us. That stupid Bin Laden guy didn't have the brains to fly our own planes into the Twin Towers they said. He's no threat they said. So they let him go and look what happened. Sadam couldn't possibly plan something even bigger...if he was alive. He's no threat. We're completely safe over here with nothing to fear. We can keep talking our way out of every mess, or MAYBE throw a bunch of money at it instead. That will keep the wolves at bay!! They'll like us and leave us alone if we talk nicely and invite them to the white house for dinner maybe? Maybe Hollywood would start a new Burka trend to make them feel better? Start smacking around women a little like they do. Maybe chop off some hands? Years pass by and one day as we're negotiating for the upteenth time and they're laughing at us, 9-11 happens all over again this time in Jerusalem and NY at the same time. Buh, buh, but, but he said he wouldn't do anything. They really have no ill will. They just want to be left alone.
Maybe you can accept another 9-11. Maybe you'd be happier if suicide bombers were blowing up Starbucks in LA and NY instead of a fruit stand in Iraq? You'd probably be happier if OUR civilians were being killed instead. I'm not happy when any civilians die, but who would you rather it be, Americans or Iraqis? It has to be someone. Them or us? I choose them.
How many warnings did Clinton have? How many times did they test us to see what we'd do? We did NOTHING and look what happened. 9-11 Bush did SOMETHING and look what happened. No attacks.
The war did not bring on the current financial situation. It was going to happen regardless. The war didn't cause the housing bubble to burst. It didn't cause gas prices to sky rocket. It didn't force millions to stupidly sign loan aggreements they couldn't pay or rack up credit card debt. It didn't force banks to give loans to people who didn't deserve them. It didn't influence CEOs at major financial firms to lose their minds. It didn't cause the heads of GM and Ford to make average cars or negotiate moronic terms with unions which CRUSHED them. The war only made us safer. Its a fact. 9-11 was the wake up call and just like many predicted, lots of americans have VERY short memories. Neve forget it. Never forget what happens when we sit on our laurels.
Originally posted by Vemoi Originally posted by Faxxer Originally posted by popinjay Today's AP news story byline:
"News report reveals billions wasted in Iraq and Afghanistan". Turns out there are at least some 154 ongoing criminal investigations into fraud of taxpayer monies during the war, with possibly more to come. Since 2003, the Pentagon, State Dept, and USAID paid over $100 billion to contractors. Charges of theft, bribery, defective products, bid rigging, and conficts of interest are flying. The funny thing is that before the war, the Bush Administration projected a $2.4 Billion dollar tag for reconstruction, but yet we've gone way over that. Whoops. Baiting and switching during the Bush years? People who still think the Bush Adminstration had nothing to do with the current economic problems in the U.S. should never be allowed to vote again. They clearly ignore facts when they are in abundance and are incapable of making adult decisions, but would rather play the "morality" card.
How bout a link. What are the specific charges aginst whom? You guys absolutely kill me! Again, where are the lefty spending hawks screaming about the Stimulas bill!?!?!?!? Really, admit it, you don't care about all the money. You just hate Bush.
Guess what. Spending on wars ends. Military gets downsized and grown unlike any other part of government. You ought to ask yourself why we have contractors instead of military doing these jobs. Now the boondoggle non-stimulating "stimulas" bill. That will have long lasting effects and no one will be charged with anything because it is the government pissing away the money. This one will have no one to blame but Democrates though. Of course it will all be forgotten because it is a Democrate bill.
It's an Associated Press story released today Its right in my post. A little Google work and you got it. I mean, VERY little work. You must be of the younger generation.. gotta have a link and a nice picture to go along with it, or forget it. This is the dumbing down of America people have fortold. You really don't have to look hard for the story, don't be so lazy, lol. I pray you don't believe me, so you'd go look it up yourself.
It says "ongoing" investigations. Usually in an ongoing investigation, there are no charges made until they finish... the investigation. Since there is 154 of them and counting, it's gonna take awhile as some accounts are still open. Its been 6 years of payouts and no accountability, this is not going to be done anytime soon. The people looking into this have a report due in 2010.
The reason we have contractors doing these jobs, is because private contractors like Halliburton were paying their guys 100k plus to do the same work our troops were, but troops got 24k. So special forces guys and troops retire, then go work for these guys. Today's modern military is not as attractive as it was years ago with college in the reach of more Americans through loans and grants. Who wants to stop a bullet with their body when you can code programs? I had friends on the force take a leave of absence and go to work in Iraq for one year. They made 120k TAX FREE as long as they didn't leave Iraq for longer than one week. If they stayed out any longer, they had to pay taxes on the money. The company paid all their expenses, firearms and lodging. This is because Bush gave a blank check to Rumsfeld and Bremer, worse than any bailout.
If you understood anything about economies, there has to be a stimulus right now to get banks to lend to one another again. Have you taken a look in your mailbox lately (I assume you own your own home like I do) When was the last time you got a credit card application sent to you?
I used to get tons of credit card offers over the last couple years until my eyes bled. I can't remember the last one I got asking for business. They all dried up. Nothing happened to my credit, my home is the same and I actually make more than before this mess started. There is no money out there. If there isn't an infusion of money to bolster some kind of confidence, its gonna get worse. If we hadn't spent tons in Iraq we could have used all that to fix this mess. But instead, Bush took a positive economy, went crazy on making crap like whole branches of government like Homeland Security and bankrupted the Treasury.
Originally posted by Josher Iraq wasn't the cause of 9-11 but it sure wasn't helping matters was it? You know those people who NEVER voted int their lives are actually voting now. They're not being wisked away and shot whenever they speak their mind. So when Iraq turns itself into a thriving democracy, similar to Isreal and we have 2 Allies in the middle east, please explain how that money was wasted? Go ahead. OR, how about imagining for a split second a few years from now. Lets make it 10. Sadam is still in power, because he's not dead anymore because we never did anything. But now, his army is much greater AND he has a nuke and is threatening Isreal. Throw an even stronger Iran on the table. Not hard to imagine right? Never happened before right? How much do you think we'll have to spend on a war then? How many lives do you think will be lost going up against a full fledged army instead of the pathetic mess that was there when we walked right in with hardly a casualty? How many US soldier do you think would die in a REAL war when the enemy is ready for us? You think a lot of soldiers have died in Iraq? You see, your ignorant Lib brain that can't see a few feet past your nose and can't possibly comprehend how much cheaper attacking a weak nation is that was flaunting supposed WMDs and threatening us. You know the whole world figured he had them. It wasn't just us. You know it wouldn't have been hard to move them, considering how much time he had to do it. Iran wouldn't have gladly taken them right? The thousands that died in Sadam's gas bombings didn't just fall over on their own. All the signs were there. It wasn't completely unthinkable. So, do you keep waiting and just ignore the rantings of a nut and keep saying "you're crazy, you won't do it" year after year. Do you just wait for something really bad to happen to us instead? You know, like what Clinton did? Thats what waiting around got us. That stupid Bin Laden guy didn't have the brains to fly our own planes into the Twin Towers they said. He's no threat they said. So they let him go and look what happened. Sadam couldn't possibly plan something even bigger...if he was alive. He's no threat. We're completely safe over here with nothing to fear. We can keep talking our way out of every mess, or MAYBE throw a bunch of money at it instead. That will keep the wolves at bay!! They'll like us and leave us alone if we talk nicely and invite them to the white house for dinner maybe? Maybe Hollywood would start a new Burka trend to make them feel better? Start smacking around women a little like they do. Maybe chop off some hands? Years pass by and one day as we're negotiating for the upteenth time and they're laughing at us, 9-11 happens all over again this time in Jerusalem and NY at the same time. Buh, buh, but, but he said he wouldn't do anything. They really have no ill will. They just want to be left alone. Maybe you can accept another 9-11. Maybe you'd be happier if suicide bombers were blowing up Starbucks in LA and NY instead of a fruit stand in Iraq? You'd probably be happier if OUR civilians were being killed instead. I'm not happy when any civilians die, but who would you rather it be, Americans or Iraqis? It has to be someone. Them or us? I choose them. How many warnings did Clinton have? How many times did they test us to see what we'd do? We did NOTHING and look what happened. 9-11 Bush did SOMETHING and look what happened. No attacks. The war did not bring on the current financial situation. It was going to happen regardless. The war didn't cause the housing bubble to burst. It didn't cause gas prices to sky rocket. It didn't force millions to stupidly sign loan aggreements they couldn't pay or rack up credit card debt. It didn't force banks to give loans to people who didn't deserve them. It didn't influence CEOs at major financial firms to lose their minds. It didn't cause the heads of GM and Ford to make average cars or negotiate moronic terms with unions which CRUSHED them. The war only made us safer. Its a fact. 9-11 was the wake up call and just like many predicted, lots of americans have VERY short memories. Neve forget it. Never forget what happens when we sit on our laurels.
Your "What ifs.." post here makes me laugh, lol. Reminds me of the Marvel comics where they would print one saying "What if SpiderMan had the Hulk's strength?" or "What if Superman and Batman fought?" The first line is a doozy. "Iraq wasn't the cause of 9-11 but it sure wasn't helping matters was it?" Heres one: Switzerland wasn't the cause of 9/11 either, but they sure weren't helping matters, were they? See how silly that is what you wrote there?
The rest you post is all opinion and little fact. It looks like you were just brainstorming and wrote whatever you heard and it got all jumbled up. Please check out the History Channel.. there are plenty of good shows on there to pick up about the Middle East and 9/11.
I guess you were asleep during the 1980's when Saddam was bankrolled by the United States, given all the mustard gas, VX and VN he could carry and was told "Go pick a fight with Iran"? Gee, I wonder where Saddam got the idea it was ok to whisk people away, gas them up, torture and shoot them and not have them vote? Maybe from... Rumsfeld and Reagan, who turned a blind eye, but gave a warm hug and handshake? Yep, that's it. Please go read your history, because you know not of what you speak. You only know what you've been spoonfed by God knows who.. the patriotic drumbeat of rhetoric.
Here's your real boogeymen:
In February 1982, the State Department dropped Baghdad from its list of state sponsors of terrorism, clearing the way for aid and trade.
A month later, Reagan ordered a review of US policy in the Middle East which resulted in a marked shift in favor of Iraq over the next year.
Soon thereafter, Washington began passing high-value military intelligence to Iraq to help it fight the war, including information from US satellites that helped fix key flaws in the fortifications protecting al-Basrah that proved important in Irans defeat in the next month, wrote Kenneth Pollack in his recently published book The Threatening Storm.
By March 1985, the United States was issuing Baghdad export permits for high tech equipment crucial for its weapons of mass destruction programs, according to Pollack.
In December 1983, Rumsfeld, then a special envoy to the Middle East appointed by President Reagan, travelled to Baghdad to inform Saddam Hussein that the United States was ready to resume full diplomatic relations with Iraq. A lengthy report in the Washington Post on December 30, 2002 based on analysing thousands of pages of declassified government documents and interviews with former policy-makers said that US intelligence and logistical support played a crucial role in shoring up Iraqi defences following Rumsfelds visit.
Where do terrorists and dictators come from? The United States. We grow them at home as well as abroad. Now you know.
Iraq wasn't the cause of 9-11 but it sure wasn't helping matters was it? You know those people who NEVER voted int their lives are actually voting now. They're not being wisked away and shot whenever they speak their mind. So when Iraq turns itself into a thriving democracy, similar to Isreal and we have 2 Allies in the middle east, please explain how that money was wasted? Go ahead.
OR, how about imagining for a split second a few years from now. Lets make it 10. Sadam is still in power, because he's not dead anymore because we never did anything. But now, his army is much greater AND he has a nuke and is threatening Isreal. Throw an even stronger Iran on the table. Not hard to imagine right? Never happened before right? How much do you think we'll have to spend on a war then? How many lives do you think will be lost going up against a full fledged army instead of the pathetic mess that was there when we walked right in with hardly a casualty? How many US soldier do you think would die in a REAL war when the enemy is ready for us? You think a lot of soldiers have died in Iraq? You see, your ignorant Lib brain that can't see a few feet past your nose and can't possibly comprehend how much cheaper attacking a weak nation is that was flaunting supposed WMDs and threatening us. You know the whole world figured he had them. It wasn't just us. You know it wouldn't have been hard to move them, considering how much time he had to do it. Iran wouldn't have gladly taken them right? The thousands that died in Sadam's gas bombings didn't just fall over on their own. All the signs were there. It wasn't completely unthinkable.
So, do you keep waiting and just ignore the rantings of a nut and keep saying "you're crazy, you won't do it" year after year. Do you just wait for something really bad to happen to us instead? You know, like what Clinton did? Thats what waiting around got us. That stupid Bin Laden guy didn't have the brains to fly our own planes into the Twin Towers they said. He's no threat they said. So they let him go and look what happened. Sadam couldn't possibly plan something even bigger...if he was alive. He's no threat. We're completely safe over here with nothing to fear. We can keep talking our way out of every mess, or MAYBE throw a bunch of money at it instead. That will keep the wolves at bay!! They'll like us and leave us alone if we talk nicely and invite them to the white house for dinner maybe? Maybe Hollywood would start a new Burka trend to make them feel better? Start smacking around women a little like they do. Maybe chop off some hands? Years pass by and one day as we're negotiating for the upteenth time and they're laughing at us, 9-11 happens all over again this time in Jerusalem and NY at the same time. Buh, buh, but, but he said he wouldn't do anything. They really have no ill will. They just want to be left alone.
Maybe you can accept another 9-11. Maybe you'd be happier if suicide bombers were blowing up Starbucks in LA and NY instead of a fruit stand in Iraq? You'd probably be happier if OUR civilians were being killed instead. I'm not happy when any civilians die, but who would you rather it be, Americans or Iraqis? It has to be someone. Them or us? I choose them.
How many warnings did Clinton have? How many times did they test us to see what we'd do? We did NOTHING and look what happened. 9-11 Bush did SOMETHING and look what happened. No attacks.
The war did not bring on the current financial situation. It was going to happen regardless. The war didn't cause the housing bubble to burst. It didn't cause gas prices to sky rocket. It didn't force millions to stupidly sign loan aggreements they couldn't pay or rack up credit card debt. It didn't force banks to give loans to people who didn't deserve them. It didn't influence CEOs at major financial firms to lose their minds. It didn't cause the heads of GM and Ford to make average cars or negotiate moronic terms with unions which CRUSHED them. The war only made us safer. Its a fact. 9-11 was the wake up call and just like many predicted, lots of americans have VERY short memories. Neve forget it. Never forget what happens when we sit on our laurels.
You're rampant paranoia and endless imagination for the most fantastic, unlikely or unrealistic senarios has left me speechless.....and that ain't easy to do.
"News report reveals billions wasted in Iraq and Afghanistan".
Turns out there are at least some 154 ongoing criminal investigations into fraud of taxpayer monies during the war, with possibly more to come. Since 2003, the Pentagon, State Dept, and USAID paid over $100 billion to contractors. Charges of theft, bribery, defective products, bid rigging, and conficts of interest are flying.
The funny thing is that before the war, the Bush Administration projected a $2.4 Billion dollar tag for reconstruction, but yet we've gone way over that. Whoops. Baiting and switching during the Bush years?
People who still think the Bush Adminstration had nothing to do with the current economic problems in the U.S. should never be allowed to vote again. They clearly ignore facts when they are in abundance and are incapable of making adult decisions, but would rather play the "morality" card.
you really don't have a clue what you are talking about... AT ALL.
find out who was in charge of fannie mae and fredie mac before you waste our time.
I didn't mention Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac in this news story about wasting of taxpayer monies in Iraq. Are you sure you're replying to the right post?
"People who still think the Bush Adminstration had nothing to do with the current economic problems in the U.S. should never be allowed to vote again. They clearly ignore facts when they are in abundance and are incapable of making adult decisions, but would rather play the "morality" card."
"current economic problems".... ya you mentioned the root of it.
It was late and my imagination was flying=) However, lets put it in easier terms, since brainstroming "what ifs" is too difficult for some. CMon its fun. My brainstorming is exactly what the military does by the way. Its what they do every second. Its also what business do. Entire departments are in charge of wrestling with "what ifs" and predetermining what they should do IF something happens. They make decisions to avoid problems later on.
Lets make it easy=) Do you wear seat-belts in a car or a helmet on a motorcycle? Do you use suntan lotion? Do you go to the dentist regularly? Do you go to the doctor to check out that spot on your neck? Do you save for retirement? Do you get a colonoscopy even though you're feeling fine? Do you get physicals? These are all preemptive measures. WHy do you think you take all these measures? To avoid disaster or something bad happening to you. What do you think would happen if you failed to do so? Why shouldn't the govt do the same for us?
Do you not bother going to the dentist when your tooth starts killing you and let it become a cavity? Do you ignore that mole growing an extra arm and let it turn to cancer or do you take care of it? Do you ignore someone that just told you to your face they wanted to hurt you or your family or do you call the cops? Its too late once they're in your home or your child is hurt. I imagine some of you would do nothing, since you think its OK just just sit around and wait for things to happen instead of taking measures to avoid the unthinkable.
WAR with Iraq was going to happen sooner or later. It already happened once before. its not like the guy was innocent. We took it to him a second time before he took to us. It doesn't matter if we bank rolled him in the past. It only means we helped create a problem that we had to take care of. Using people against others for your best self interest is how you survive sometimes, especially in world politics. THEY're doing it against us every day. You preemptively take measures in one scenario to help yourself in another, OR you just wait around on you heels. I'd prefer people who protect me to be aware of the problems and do something about them before they get worse. Sadly the govt doesn't do enough most of the time.
Go ask all those financial firm CEOs what they were doing in the 90s and into 2000 to prevent whats happening now. They were doing NOTHING except lining their own pockets, because they don't care about anyone else except themselves. They knew their companies could go completely under and they would come out just fine. They could retire tomorrow with just their bonuses and live a few lifetimes that the average American lives. Now we're paying for it, literally. THEY should pay.
PLease do tell if anything I'm saying is off the mark. Seems like pure common sense.
It's a pretty tired waste of typing for you libs to keep pissing and moaning about Iraq. Newsflash for ya, we won the war. Now we're just keeping domestic peace. Something I might point out they are doing better than any suburb of DC or Chicago in terms of murders. So get over it.
What I love most is how the point of this thread was to point out how Obama and his team are being laughed at by the governments IN POWER that see talk as weakness. Bush did it right. new admin, fail.
It's a pretty tired waste of typing for you libs to keep pissing and moaning about Iraq. Newsflash for ya, we won the war. Now we're just keeping domestic peace. Something I might point out they are doing better than any suburb of DC or Chicago in terms of murders. So get over it.
What I love most is how the point of this thread was to point out how Obama and his team are being laughed at by the governments IN POWER that see talk as weakness. Bush did it right. new admin, fail.
lol, don't knock the Dem's. When it's time to fight they are as ruthless as the come. They are the party of nukes, drafts, assassinations of world leaders and world wide policing policies.
As I recall it was Al Gore and William Jefferson Blythe (or "Bill" Clinton as he prefered) that promised the US time and time again that GH Bush was ignoring the Iraqies WMD programs and the would unleash the full (as Al put it) "Might and mettle" of the United States military if they refused to fully cooperate. Which they did, for a while.
Think maybe Bush 2 took their message to heart after seeing his father disasembled for not taking more drastic measures against Iraq when he was pres.
Iraq wasn't the cause of 9-11 but it sure wasn't helping matters was it? You know those people who NEVER voted int their lives are actually voting now. They're not being wisked away and shot whenever they speak their mind.
Of course they are. And quite often by us.
Iran doesn't want to kill all American's. Please take off your KKK masks before replying.
Iran doesn't want to kill all the jews.
You would really have to be an insane fanatic to buy into that kind of stuff. I find the people who believe that to be scarey. Be they American, Israeli or Iranian. If you believe that stuff, you are the enemy. Not America. Not Iran. Not Israel. You.
Fanatacism knows no national boundaries. It is not restricted to any creed or race. It's as ugly to read it coming from the mouths of American's as it is to read it coming from the mouths of any other nationality.
What Iran does want to do is throw the U.S. and every other power out of the middle east and take over it's domination for themselves.
And they don't respect weakness. And they do respect military intervention. Bombing, infiltration, assasination, invasion, gunboat diplomacy and proxy war.
What they don't respect is a nation that has lost the bollocks to use those tools to maintain it's empire.
They launched their first comms satelite today. Spy satelites will be next. Israel can't do dick about dick.
We will be negotiating with Iran from a position of weakness because we didn't have the balls to attack them when they were weak compared to us. They will have sovreignty over that region because we didn't have the balls to keep it for ourselves.
They are right. We are weak in the mind. We just don't want it as bad as them. Their power rises to usurp ours as it wanes.
WAR with Iraq was going to happen sooner or later. It already happened once before. its not like the guy was innocent. We took it to him a second time before he took to us. It doesn't matter if we bank rolled him in the past. It only means we helped create a problem that we had to take care of. Using people against others for your best self interest is how you survive sometimes, especially in world politics. THEY're doing it against us every day. You preemptively take measures in one scenario to help yourself in another, OR you just wait around on you heels.
PLease do tell if anything I'm saying is off the mark.
You are wrong here on a couple of things. The rest of your post is just more "What if the Justice League helped Napoleon at Waterloo" comic book rantings.
By your above, it seems as if you are saying that it didn't matter that the United States, as proved in fact and released government documents, created Saddam Hussien and the situation with Iran right now. Tell me if you are saying otherwise, cause it sure looks like this. Could you be even more lost in regards to United States history with Iran? Do you even know who the Shah of Iran was? Have you even heard of the U.S. involvement with the overthrow of the Iranian prime minister Mohammad Mossadegh in a 1953 coup?
Well, Madeleine Albright had:
n 2000, U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine K. Albright stated:
"In 1953 the United States played a significant role in orchestrating the overthrow of Iran's popular Prime Minister, Mohammed Massadegh. The Eisenhower Administration believed its actions were justified for strategic reasons; but the coup was clearly a setback for Iran's political development. And it is easy to see now why many Iranians continue to resent this intervention by America in their internal affairs."
Iran was minding its own business some 56 years ago when the United States helped overthrown their government and put in our flunkie. Iran was also minding its own business over some 20 years ago when we prop up and prod a dictator from Iraq to attack them and start an eight year war, and you say that's immaterial. Do you even attempt to look any history of that region up, or just go with whatever anyone says on a radio and TV program?
You also claim its ok for the U.S. to do this type of corruption because "its how you survive". I hope you don't take this as a flame, but you have the worst case of xenophobia I have ever seen, short of reading about the Brownshirts in 1920s. You do realize that although Neocons feed you this line, they themselves don't actually believe what they tell you, right? I'm sure you are a great tank or dps guy, but as an American citizen you fail, because you refuse to educate yourself on matters easily looked up in history and take the easy way out by repeating other's rhetoric quotes.
How about this "accident"?
Iran Air Flight 655, also known as IR655, was a civilian airliner shot down by US missiles on Sunday 3 July 1988, over the Strait of Hormuz, toward the end of the Iran-Iraq War.
The aircraft, an Airbus A300B2 operated by Iran Air as IR655, was flying from Bandar Abbas, Iran, to Dubai, UAE, when it was destroyed by the U.S. Navy's guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes, killing all 290 passengers and crew aboard, including 66 children, ranking it seventh among the deadliest airliner fatalities. Vincennes was traversing the Straits of Hormuz, inside Iranian territorial waters, at the time of the attack and IR655 was within Iranian airspace.
According to the US government, the crew mistakenly identified the Iranian Airbus A300 as an attacking F-14 Tomcat fighter. The Iranian government maintained that the Vincennes knowingly shot down a civilian aircraft. The event generated a great deal of controversy and criticism of the US. Some analysts have blamed US military commanders and the captain of the Vincennes for reckless and aggressive behavior in a tense and dangerous environment.
In 1996, the United States and Iran reached "an agreement in full and final settlement of all disputes, differences, claims, counterclaims" relating to the incident at the International Court of Justice. As part of the settlement, the United States agreed to pay $61.8 million in compensation for the Iranians killed. The United States did not admit responsibility or apologize to the Iranian government.
Please, I beg you, just look up a few of the names I provided. Pick any source you like, Google, Wiki, U.S. government data... anything. Just do some reading, any reading.
Sounds like a real accident. By using quotes I guess you thought it was unpurpose. So what reason did we have to purposely shoot down an Airbus anyway? A horrible mistake, yes, but an "accident"? Talk about paranoid;)
Still doesn't discount the country is potentially very dangerous, just like Iraq was. But history is history. We already know Iran is supporting terrorists that are killing US civilians. You're OK with that? Guess so. If you can criticise what we do, what do you propose we do in the future? Ignore any threat? According to you we should probably have blown up England a long time ago since look at what they did to us. The past is the past buddy. Let it go.
We wouldn't care about whats going on if that area didn't have such a strangle hold over everyone. The sick joke of it all is how just a few people, barely out of the dark ages, can easily manipulate the world. We'd be stupid not to find ways to influence whats going on. I guess we should just stay out of it all and let the pieces fall as they may. They all have our best wishes at heart over there, right?
Sounds like a real accident. By using quotes I guess you thought it was unpurpose. So what reason did we have to purposely shoot down an Airbus anyway? A horrible mistake, yes, but an "accident"? Talk about paranoid;)
We already know Iran is supporting terrorists that are killing US civilians. You're OK with that? Guess so.
It was flying low over an American warship and refusing to alter it's course from one comparable with a bombing run.
A mistake? Not exactly, if they did it again, they would get shot down again.
Sorry did I miss something? Which Iranian backed terrorists are these that are killing US civilians?
The imaginary ones or the ones in that Bruce Willis film?
Where was Bin Laden getting his money from? Iran? Iraq? Russia? North Korea? Thin air? It came from somewhere? Someone is giving money to people who want us dead. The most obvious culprits would be Iran or Sadam. Sadam is obviously not doing it, so who's left? My mistake, it was Bush all along. He gave them the money to blow up our own towers to go to war for no apparent reason....my bad=)
I don't think it was really an accident, that plane being shot down. It was a mistake since it was just an airbus. An accident? No. We didn't target and shoot it down just for the sake of it. We shot it down because it represented a threat of some sort.
Originally posted by Josher Sounds like a real accident. By using quotes I guess you thought it was unpurpose. So what reason did we have to purposely shoot down an Airbus anyway? A horrible mistake, yes, but an "accident"? Talk about paranoid;) Still doesn't discount the country is potentially very dangerous, just like Iraq was. But history is history. We already know Iran is supporting terrorists that are killing US civilians. You're OK with that? Guess so. If you can criticise what we do, what do you propose we do in the future? Ignore any threat? According to you we should probably have blown up England a long time ago since look at what they did to us. The past is the past buddy. Let it go. We wouldn't care about whats going on if that area didn't have such a strangle hold over everyone. The sick joke of it all is how just a few people, barely out of the dark ages, can easily manipulate the world. We'd be stupid not to find ways to influence whats going on. I guess we should just stay out of it all and let the pieces fall as they may. They all have our best wishes at heart over there, right?
Since you chose NOT to look up the article yourself, here are some more spoonfeedings:
On the morning of 3 July, the Vincennes was passing through the Strait of Hormuz returning from an escort duty. A helicopter from the USS Vincennes received warning fire after it buzzed Iranian patrol vessels. The Vincennes moved to engage to Iranian vessels, in the course of which they all violated Omani waters, which they all left when challenged and ordered to leave by a Royal Navy of Oman warship. The Vincennes then crossed into Iranian territorial waters and opened fire on Iranian gunboats. The USS Sides (FFG-14) and USS Elmer Montgomery (FF-1082) were nearby.
It was shortly after this gunfire exchange that Iran Air Flight 655 approached to begin its transit of the Straits. The USS Vincennes fired missiles at the airliner, destroying it and causing it to fall into the waters of the Gulf.
Short recap for you:
During a WAR that the U.S. started between Iraq and Iran, a U.S. helicopter crosses and begins to buzz an Iranian patrol boat in their own waters. We were poking them with a stick to get them to respond. They shoot warning shots at the helicopter to get it out of their waters, then the helicopter calls in the cruiser.
The cruiser breaks another country's waters, Oman, at which point the Omanis tell the U.S. to get the hell out of its space, which the cruiser does. It then crosses into IRANIAN waters and fires on the Iranian ships.
While this was going on, a scheduled civilian flight was approaching. The U.S. ships says they thought it was an attacking F-14 Tomcat, even though the speed and signatures of the two were nothing alike.
Again, the U.S. has killed far more Iranians than vice-versa.
Originally posted by Josher Where was Bin Laden getting his money from?
Sheikh Mohammed bin 'Awad bin Laden (Arabic: ???? ?? ??? ?? ?????), also known as Mohammed bin Laden (1908September 3, 1967), a Yemeni immigrant to Saudi Arabia was a wealthy investor, businessman and patriarch of the bin Laden family. He married 22 times and fathered at least 54 children. Osama bin Laden is believed to be his 17th child and the only son with his tenth wife Hamida al-Attas, reportedly of Syrian descent.
A poor, uneducated native of the Shafi`i (Sunni) Hadhramaut coast of south Yemen, Mohammed bin Laden emigrated to Saudi Arabia before World War I, initially working as a porter in Jeddah. In 1930, he started his own construction business and after coming to the attention of Abdul Aziz Ibn Saud, first monarch of Saudi Arabia, he eventually achieved such success that his family became known as "the wealthiest non-royal family in the kingdom."
Mohammed bin Laden's enormous financial success was ascribed to a shrewd business sense, fealty to Saudi Arabia's rulers, reliability and a willingness to offer the lowest bid on construction contracts.
As the "royal builder," Mohammed bin Laden forged close relationships with the royal family, particularly Prince Faisal of Saudi Arabia. In 1964, Prince Faisal deposed his half-brother, King Saud, and began rebuilding the kingdom after the wasteful excesses of the Saud era. Despite rising oil wealth, the kingdom was fiscally insolvent. King Faisal accepted Mohammed bin Laden's offer of financial assistance to support the national economy and as a reward, King Faisal issued a royal decree awarding all future construction projects to bin Laden's construction company. As a result, bin Laden's company eventually amassed assets in excess of US$5 billion.
He made his initial fortune from exclusive rights to all mosque and other religious building construction in Saudi Arabia and several other Arab countries. Until 1967, Mohammed bin Laden held exclusive responsibility for restorations at the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. The Bin Laden Construction company received contracts to build the following projects:
A $296 million contract with other companies for the construction of a ring freeway around Riyadh. A $1.3 billion contract for construction of housing units for the security forces in Jeddah. A $1.3 billion contract for similar units for the National Guard at Mecca. A $1.1 billion contract for construction of the Kharaj Military City near Riyadh. A $1.1 billion contract for the royal palace in Mecca. A $4 billion contract for expansion of the holy places in Mecca. Despite his royal associations and great wealth, Mohammed bin Laden lived a simple and devout life, demanding that his children observe a strict religious and moral code. In his later years, the bin Laden corporate network diversified its activities beyond construction, largely in foreign investment and oil.
On September 3, 1967, Mohammed bin Laden was killed when his company airplane, a Beechcraft crashed during landing at Usran, in southwest Saudi Arabia. He sired a total of 54 children, by 22 wives. Mohammed never had more than four wives at a timehaving divorced older wives and married new ones as needed to limit the number of current wives to four. According to Carmen bin Ladin, Mohammed was planning to wed a 23rd wife the night he died, and was headed there when his plane crashed.
Following Mohammed bin Laden's death, his eldest sons, principally Salem bin Laden, renamed the organization, "Binladen Brothers for Contracting and Industry" and continued to expand their late father's company until it employed more than 40,000 people.
The Saudi Binladin Group as it is now known, is involved in construction, engineering, manufacturing, and telecommunications. Construction projects include airports, housing complexes, tunnels, and bridges. The group is also involved in city planning and real estate development. The Saudi Binladin Group is Egypt's largest private foreign company and negotiated with the Lebanese government to rebuild part of central Beirut under a US$50 million contract.
Father befriends Saudis and gets rich. Father loves son. Father gives son millions. Son has brothers. Brothers love son. Son gets millions. Saudi government knows son. Saudi government hates Israel. Son hates Israel. Saudis have chance to get Osama from Sudan for Clinton. Saudis friends with father's company. Saudis refuse to take Osama. Saudi government friend of US, who is friend of Israel. Saudis funnel money to son under the table. Son goes too far with plans. Son leaves country. U.S. invades Iraq to "find" son, who is in another country. U.S. spends trillions, VP gets old company, Halliburton, rich.
"If you do business with terrorists, if you support or succor them, you will not do business with the United States," said President Bush.
He didn't say anything about doing business with a terrorist's brother - or his wealthy financier.
When President George W. Bush froze assets connected to Osama bin Laden, he didn't tell the American people that the terrorist mastermind's late brother was an investor in the president's former oil business in Texas. He also hasn't leveled with the American public about his financial connections to a host of shady Saudi characters involved in drug cartels, gun smuggling, and terrorist networks.
Doing business with the enemy is nothing new to the Bush family. Much of the Bush family wealth came from supplying needed raw materials and credit to Adolf Hitler's Third Reich. Several business operations managed by Prescott Bush - the president's grandfather - were seized by the US government during World War II under the Trading with the Enemy Act. Prescott Bush was an owner and Director of Union Banking Corp seized in October 1942, 10 months after the attack on Pearl Harbor, under the Trading with the Enemy Act due to ownership by enemy nationals
I bet Rush Limbaugh never mentioned this fact on his radio show, did he? The real world is crazy man... stop gaming for a bit and read up.
So blah, blah, blah...does any of that matter at all? Honestly? Should I suddenly feel sorry for Osama? SHould I feel remorse over his poor plight? How about mentioning what YOU THINK instead of reading Wikipedia. So the US does everything wrong and we deserve everything we get? Please Mr Lib, how about explaining what we should do. Whats it like living as an Ostrich?
Since Iran supports Hamas and Hamas wants Isreal and the US dead, it means Iran wants us dead as well. I forget, they're just minding their own business. Please do tell us what YOU think we should do instead of copying and pasting Wiki pages. You think I care where GW's grandfather made his money? Is it provable? Why wasn't it plastered all over NBC news during the elections? Sources please?
I'm curious who you love more, the US or terrorists? Seems you hate the US.
Comments
If we don't spend BILLIONS in Iraq trying to find Bin Laden (where he wasn't), the economy is not so bad. When the economy does shrink, as all do from time to time, you have saved up capital in the bank to throw at it. The money we are spending in the bailouts now is only a trickle of what we spent the last 8 years. Bush has been a bigger spender than any Democratic president we've ever had and that is a fact. He's made the most government ever.
We don't spend money chasing ghosties and bad guys, we have more to weather the tougher times like now. But now we're spending billions on Iraq AND billions on the economy at the same time, thanks to W. Pretty simple really to figure out.
"TO MICHAEL!"
If we don't spend BILLIONS in Iraq trying to find Bin Laden (where he wasn't), the economy is not so bad. When the economy does shrink, as all do from time to time, you have saved up capital in the bank to throw at it. The money we are spending in the bailouts now is only a trickle of what we spent the last 8 years. Bush has been a bigger spender than any Democratic president we've ever had and that is a fact. He's made the most government ever.
We don't spend money chasing ghosties and bad guys, we have more to weather the tougher times like now. But now we're spending billions on Iraq AND billions on the economy at the same time, thanks to W. Pretty simple really to figure out.
No joke! 550 billion dollars a year could come in real handy right about now.
Vary well said Josher..
Trade in material assumptions for spiritual facts and make permanent progress.
Wow....I mean wow! You really have swallowed the Kool-aid and left none for anyone else. But even so you do have quite a vivid imagination.
Buy my favorite part was when you called me a hippy! Peace...love...dove, man!
Today's AP news story byline:
"News report reveals billions wasted in Iraq and Afghanistan".
Turns out there are at least some 154 ongoing criminal investigations into fraud of taxpayer monies during the war, with possibly more to come. Since 2003, the Pentagon, State Dept, and USAID paid over $100 billion to contractors. Charges of theft, bribery, defective products, bid rigging, and conficts of interest are flying.
The funny thing is that before the war, the Bush Administration projected a $2.4 Billion dollar tag for reconstruction, but yet we've gone way over that. Whoops. Baiting and switching during the Bush years?
People who still think the Bush Adminstration had nothing to do with the current economic problems in the U.S. should never be allowed to vote again. They clearly ignore facts when they are in abundance and are incapable of making adult decisions, but would rather play the "morality" card.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Sounds vaguely familiar..... Isn't that what the Japanese though right before launching themselves at us? I mean those guys had hide themselves away from all other forms of human life for at least 10,000 years. I can kind of understand them thinking that. Iran /Persia has been their for the Greeks, Romans, Khans, Huns, and whoever else.
Hell, this "private" war they are waging with Israel is going horrible for them even, and they want to spice things up now?
Good luck guys, hope you really don't think like the Jap's did, That the US is nothing but playboys and sit-back do nothing slobs, they learned a hard lesson thinking like that.
you really don't have a clue what you are talking about... AT ALL.
find out who was in charge of fannie mae and fredie mac before you waste our time.
I didn't mention Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac in this news story about wasting of taxpayer monies in Iraq. Are you sure you're replying to the right post?
"TO MICHAEL!"
How bout a link. What are the specific charges aginst whom? You guys absolutely kill me! Again, where are the lefty spending hawks screaming about the Stimulas bill!?!?!?!? Really, admit it, you don't care about all the money. You just hate Bush.
Guess what. Spending on wars ends. Military gets downsized and grown unlike any other part of government. You ought to ask yourself why we have contractors instead of military doing these jobs. Now the boondoggle non-stimulating "stimulas" bill. That will have long lasting effects and no one will be charged with anything because it is the government pissing away the money. This one will have no one to blame but Democrates though. Of course it will all be forgotten because it is a Democrate bill.
Iraq wasn't the cause of 9-11 but it sure wasn't helping matters was it? You know those people who NEVER voted int their lives are actually voting now. They're not being wisked away and shot whenever they speak their mind. So when Iraq turns itself into a thriving democracy, similar to Isreal and we have 2 Allies in the middle east, please explain how that money was wasted? Go ahead.
OR, how about imagining for a split second a few years from now. Lets make it 10. Sadam is still in power, because he's not dead anymore because we never did anything. But now, his army is much greater AND he has a nuke and is threatening Isreal. Throw an even stronger Iran on the table. Not hard to imagine right? Never happened before right? How much do you think we'll have to spend on a war then? How many lives do you think will be lost going up against a full fledged army instead of the pathetic mess that was there when we walked right in with hardly a casualty? How many US soldier do you think would die in a REAL war when the enemy is ready for us? You think a lot of soldiers have died in Iraq? You see, your ignorant Lib brain that can't see a few feet past your nose and can't possibly comprehend how much cheaper attacking a weak nation is that was flaunting supposed WMDs and threatening us. You know the whole world figured he had them. It wasn't just us. You know it wouldn't have been hard to move them, considering how much time he had to do it. Iran wouldn't have gladly taken them right? The thousands that died in Sadam's gas bombings didn't just fall over on their own. All the signs were there. It wasn't completely unthinkable.
So, do you keep waiting and just ignore the rantings of a nut and keep saying "you're crazy, you won't do it" year after year. Do you just wait for something really bad to happen to us instead? You know, like what Clinton did? Thats what waiting around got us. That stupid Bin Laden guy didn't have the brains to fly our own planes into the Twin Towers they said. He's no threat they said. So they let him go and look what happened. Sadam couldn't possibly plan something even bigger...if he was alive. He's no threat. We're completely safe over here with nothing to fear. We can keep talking our way out of every mess, or MAYBE throw a bunch of money at it instead. That will keep the wolves at bay!! They'll like us and leave us alone if we talk nicely and invite them to the white house for dinner maybe? Maybe Hollywood would start a new Burka trend to make them feel better? Start smacking around women a little like they do. Maybe chop off some hands? Years pass by and one day as we're negotiating for the upteenth time and they're laughing at us, 9-11 happens all over again this time in Jerusalem and NY at the same time. Buh, buh, but, but he said he wouldn't do anything. They really have no ill will. They just want to be left alone.
Maybe you can accept another 9-11. Maybe you'd be happier if suicide bombers were blowing up Starbucks in LA and NY instead of a fruit stand in Iraq? You'd probably be happier if OUR civilians were being killed instead. I'm not happy when any civilians die, but who would you rather it be, Americans or Iraqis? It has to be someone. Them or us? I choose them.
How many warnings did Clinton have? How many times did they test us to see what we'd do? We did NOTHING and look what happened. 9-11 Bush did SOMETHING and look what happened. No attacks.
The war did not bring on the current financial situation. It was going to happen regardless. The war didn't cause the housing bubble to burst. It didn't cause gas prices to sky rocket. It didn't force millions to stupidly sign loan aggreements they couldn't pay or rack up credit card debt. It didn't force banks to give loans to people who didn't deserve them. It didn't influence CEOs at major financial firms to lose their minds. It didn't cause the heads of GM and Ford to make average cars or negotiate moronic terms with unions which CRUSHED them. The war only made us safer. Its a fact. 9-11 was the wake up call and just like many predicted, lots of americans have VERY short memories. Neve forget it. Never forget what happens when we sit on our laurels.
How bout a link. What are the specific charges aginst whom? You guys absolutely kill me! Again, where are the lefty spending hawks screaming about the Stimulas bill!?!?!?!? Really, admit it, you don't care about all the money. You just hate Bush.
Guess what. Spending on wars ends. Military gets downsized and grown unlike any other part of government. You ought to ask yourself why we have contractors instead of military doing these jobs. Now the boondoggle non-stimulating "stimulas" bill. That will have long lasting effects and no one will be charged with anything because it is the government pissing away the money. This one will have no one to blame but Democrates though. Of course it will all be forgotten because it is a Democrate bill.
It's an Associated Press story released today Its right in my post. A little Google work and you got it. I mean, VERY little work. You must be of the younger generation.. gotta have a link and a nice picture to go along with it, or forget it. This is the dumbing down of America people have fortold. You really don't have to look hard for the story, don't be so lazy, lol. I pray you don't believe me, so you'd go look it up yourself.
It says "ongoing" investigations. Usually in an ongoing investigation, there are no charges made until they finish... the investigation. Since there is 154 of them and counting, it's gonna take awhile as some accounts are still open. Its been 6 years of payouts and no accountability, this is not going to be done anytime soon. The people looking into this have a report due in 2010.
The reason we have contractors doing these jobs, is because private contractors like Halliburton were paying their guys 100k plus to do the same work our troops were, but troops got 24k. So special forces guys and troops retire, then go work for these guys. Today's modern military is not as attractive as it was years ago with college in the reach of more Americans through loans and grants. Who wants to stop a bullet with their body when you can code programs? I had friends on the force take a leave of absence and go to work in Iraq for one year. They made 120k TAX FREE as long as they didn't leave Iraq for longer than one week. If they stayed out any longer, they had to pay taxes on the money. The company paid all their expenses, firearms and lodging. This is because Bush gave a blank check to Rumsfeld and Bremer, worse than any bailout.
If you understood anything about economies, there has to be a stimulus right now to get banks to lend to one another again. Have you taken a look in your mailbox lately (I assume you own your own home like I do) When was the last time you got a credit card application sent to you?
I used to get tons of credit card offers over the last couple years until my eyes bled. I can't remember the last one I got asking for business. They all dried up. Nothing happened to my credit, my home is the same and I actually make more than before this mess started. There is no money out there. If there isn't an infusion of money to bolster some kind of confidence, its gonna get worse. If we hadn't spent tons in Iraq we could have used all that to fix this mess. But instead, Bush took a positive economy, went crazy on making crap like whole branches of government like Homeland Security and bankrupted the Treasury.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Your "What ifs.." post here makes me laugh, lol. Reminds me of the Marvel comics where they would print one saying "What if SpiderMan had the Hulk's strength?" or "What if Superman and Batman fought?" The first line is a doozy. "Iraq wasn't the cause of 9-11 but it sure wasn't helping matters was it?" Heres one: Switzerland wasn't the cause of 9/11 either, but they sure weren't helping matters, were they? See how silly that is what you wrote there?
The rest you post is all opinion and little fact. It looks like you were just brainstorming and wrote whatever you heard and it got all jumbled up. Please check out the History Channel.. there are plenty of good shows on there to pick up about the Middle East and 9/11.
I guess you were asleep during the 1980's when Saddam was bankrolled by the United States, given all the mustard gas, VX and VN he could carry and was told "Go pick a fight with Iran"? Gee, I wonder where Saddam got the idea it was ok to whisk people away, gas them up, torture and shoot them and not have them vote? Maybe from... Rumsfeld and Reagan, who turned a blind eye, but gave a warm hug and handshake? Yep, that's it. Please go read your history, because you know not of what you speak. You only know what you've been spoonfed by God knows who.. the patriotic drumbeat of rhetoric.
Here's your real boogeymen:
Where do terrorists and dictators come from? The United States. We grow them at home as well as abroad. Now you know.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Originally posted by Josher
Iraq wasn't the cause of 9-11 but it sure wasn't helping matters was it? You know those people who NEVER voted int their lives are actually voting now. They're not being wisked away and shot whenever they speak their mind. So when Iraq turns itself into a thriving democracy, similar to Isreal and we have 2 Allies in the middle east, please explain how that money was wasted? Go ahead.
OR, how about imagining for a split second a few years from now. Lets make it 10. Sadam is still in power, because he's not dead anymore because we never did anything. But now, his army is much greater AND he has a nuke and is threatening Isreal. Throw an even stronger Iran on the table. Not hard to imagine right? Never happened before right? How much do you think we'll have to spend on a war then? How many lives do you think will be lost going up against a full fledged army instead of the pathetic mess that was there when we walked right in with hardly a casualty? How many US soldier do you think would die in a REAL war when the enemy is ready for us? You think a lot of soldiers have died in Iraq? You see, your ignorant Lib brain that can't see a few feet past your nose and can't possibly comprehend how much cheaper attacking a weak nation is that was flaunting supposed WMDs and threatening us. You know the whole world figured he had them. It wasn't just us. You know it wouldn't have been hard to move them, considering how much time he had to do it. Iran wouldn't have gladly taken them right? The thousands that died in Sadam's gas bombings didn't just fall over on their own. All the signs were there. It wasn't completely unthinkable.
So, do you keep waiting and just ignore the rantings of a nut and keep saying "you're crazy, you won't do it" year after year. Do you just wait for something really bad to happen to us instead? You know, like what Clinton did? Thats what waiting around got us. That stupid Bin Laden guy didn't have the brains to fly our own planes into the Twin Towers they said. He's no threat they said. So they let him go and look what happened. Sadam couldn't possibly plan something even bigger...if he was alive. He's no threat. We're completely safe over here with nothing to fear. We can keep talking our way out of every mess, or MAYBE throw a bunch of money at it instead. That will keep the wolves at bay!! They'll like us and leave us alone if we talk nicely and invite them to the white house for dinner maybe? Maybe Hollywood would start a new Burka trend to make them feel better? Start smacking around women a little like they do. Maybe chop off some hands? Years pass by and one day as we're negotiating for the upteenth time and they're laughing at us, 9-11 happens all over again this time in Jerusalem and NY at the same time. Buh, buh, but, but he said he wouldn't do anything. They really have no ill will. They just want to be left alone.
Maybe you can accept another 9-11. Maybe you'd be happier if suicide bombers were blowing up Starbucks in LA and NY instead of a fruit stand in Iraq? You'd probably be happier if OUR civilians were being killed instead. I'm not happy when any civilians die, but who would you rather it be, Americans or Iraqis? It has to be someone. Them or us? I choose them.
How many warnings did Clinton have? How many times did they test us to see what we'd do? We did NOTHING and look what happened. 9-11 Bush did SOMETHING and look what happened. No attacks.
The war did not bring on the current financial situation. It was going to happen regardless. The war didn't cause the housing bubble to burst. It didn't cause gas prices to sky rocket. It didn't force millions to stupidly sign loan aggreements they couldn't pay or rack up credit card debt. It didn't force banks to give loans to people who didn't deserve them. It didn't influence CEOs at major financial firms to lose their minds. It didn't cause the heads of GM and Ford to make average cars or negotiate moronic terms with unions which CRUSHED them. The war only made us safer. Its a fact. 9-11 was the wake up call and just like many predicted, lots of americans have VERY short memories. Neve forget it. Never forget what happens when we sit on our laurels.
You're rampant paranoia and endless imagination for the most fantastic, unlikely or unrealistic senarios has left me speechless.....and that ain't easy to do.
you really don't have a clue what you are talking about... AT ALL.
find out who was in charge of fannie mae and fredie mac before you waste our time.
I didn't mention Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac in this news story about wasting of taxpayer monies in Iraq. Are you sure you're replying to the right post?
"People who still think the Bush Adminstration had nothing to do with the current economic problems in the U.S. should never be allowed to vote again. They clearly ignore facts when they are in abundance and are incapable of making adult decisions, but would rather play the "morality" card."
"current economic problems".... ya you mentioned the root of it.
It was late and my imagination was flying=) However, lets put it in easier terms, since brainstroming "what ifs" is too difficult for some. CMon its fun. My brainstorming is exactly what the military does by the way. Its what they do every second. Its also what business do. Entire departments are in charge of wrestling with "what ifs" and predetermining what they should do IF something happens. They make decisions to avoid problems later on.
Lets make it easy=) Do you wear seat-belts in a car or a helmet on a motorcycle? Do you use suntan lotion? Do you go to the dentist regularly? Do you go to the doctor to check out that spot on your neck? Do you save for retirement? Do you get a colonoscopy even though you're feeling fine? Do you get physicals? These are all preemptive measures. WHy do you think you take all these measures? To avoid disaster or something bad happening to you. What do you think would happen if you failed to do so? Why shouldn't the govt do the same for us?
Do you not bother going to the dentist when your tooth starts killing you and let it become a cavity? Do you ignore that mole growing an extra arm and let it turn to cancer or do you take care of it? Do you ignore someone that just told you to your face they wanted to hurt you or your family or do you call the cops? Its too late once they're in your home or your child is hurt. I imagine some of you would do nothing, since you think its OK just just sit around and wait for things to happen instead of taking measures to avoid the unthinkable.
WAR with Iraq was going to happen sooner or later. It already happened once before. its not like the guy was innocent. We took it to him a second time before he took to us. It doesn't matter if we bank rolled him in the past. It only means we helped create a problem that we had to take care of. Using people against others for your best self interest is how you survive sometimes, especially in world politics. THEY're doing it against us every day. You preemptively take measures in one scenario to help yourself in another, OR you just wait around on you heels. I'd prefer people who protect me to be aware of the problems and do something about them before they get worse. Sadly the govt doesn't do enough most of the time.
Go ask all those financial firm CEOs what they were doing in the 90s and into 2000 to prevent whats happening now. They were doing NOTHING except lining their own pockets, because they don't care about anyone else except themselves. They knew their companies could go completely under and they would come out just fine. They could retire tomorrow with just their bonuses and live a few lifetimes that the average American lives. Now we're paying for it, literally. THEY should pay.
PLease do tell if anything I'm saying is off the mark. Seems like pure common sense.
It's a pretty tired waste of typing for you libs to keep pissing and moaning about Iraq. Newsflash for ya, we won the war. Now we're just keeping domestic peace. Something I might point out they are doing better than any suburb of DC or Chicago in terms of murders. So get over it.
What I love most is how the point of this thread was to point out how Obama and his team are being laughed at by the governments IN POWER that see talk as weakness. Bush did it right. new admin, fail.
lol, don't knock the Dem's. When it's time to fight they are as ruthless as the come. They are the party of nukes, drafts, assassinations of world leaders and world wide policing policies.
As I recall it was Al Gore and William Jefferson Blythe (or "Bill" Clinton as he prefered) that promised the US time and time again that GH Bush was ignoring the Iraqies WMD programs and the would unleash the full (as Al put it) "Might and mettle" of the United States military if they refused to fully cooperate. Which they did, for a while.
Think maybe Bush 2 took their message to heart after seeing his father disasembled for not taking more drastic measures against Iraq when he was pres.
Of course they are. And quite often by us.
Iran doesn't want to kill all American's. Please take off your KKK masks before replying.
Iran doesn't want to kill all the jews.
You would really have to be an insane fanatic to buy into that kind of stuff. I find the people who believe that to be scarey. Be they American, Israeli or Iranian. If you believe that stuff, you are the enemy. Not America. Not Iran. Not Israel. You.
Fanatacism knows no national boundaries. It is not restricted to any creed or race. It's as ugly to read it coming from the mouths of American's as it is to read it coming from the mouths of any other nationality.
What Iran does want to do is throw the U.S. and every other power out of the middle east and take over it's domination for themselves.
And they don't respect weakness. And they do respect military intervention. Bombing, infiltration, assasination, invasion, gunboat diplomacy and proxy war.
What they don't respect is a nation that has lost the bollocks to use those tools to maintain it's empire.
They launched their first comms satelite today. Spy satelites will be next. Israel can't do dick about dick.
We will be negotiating with Iran from a position of weakness because we didn't have the balls to attack them when they were weak compared to us. They will have sovreignty over that region because we didn't have the balls to keep it for ourselves.
They are right. We are weak in the mind. We just don't want it as bad as them. Their power rises to usurp ours as it wanes.
You are wrong here on a couple of things. The rest of your post is just more "What if the Justice League helped Napoleon at Waterloo" comic book rantings.
By your above, it seems as if you are saying that it didn't matter that the United States, as proved in fact and released government documents, created Saddam Hussien and the situation with Iran right now. Tell me if you are saying otherwise, cause it sure looks like this. Could you be even more lost in regards to United States history with Iran? Do you even know who the Shah of Iran was? Have you even heard of the U.S. involvement with the overthrow of the Iranian prime minister Mohammad Mossadegh in a 1953 coup?
Well, Madeleine Albright had:
Iran was minding its own business some 56 years ago when the United States helped overthrown their government and put in our flunkie. Iran was also minding its own business over some 20 years ago when we prop up and prod a dictator from Iraq to attack them and start an eight year war, and you say that's immaterial. Do you even attempt to look any history of that region up, or just go with whatever anyone says on a radio and TV program?
You also claim its ok for the U.S. to do this type of corruption because "its how you survive". I hope you don't take this as a flame, but you have the worst case of xenophobia I have ever seen, short of reading about the Brownshirts in 1920s. You do realize that although Neocons feed you this line, they themselves don't actually believe what they tell you, right? I'm sure you are a great tank or dps guy, but as an American citizen you fail, because you refuse to educate yourself on matters easily looked up in history and take the easy way out by repeating other's rhetoric quotes.
How about this "accident"?
Please, I beg you, just look up a few of the names I provided. Pick any source you like, Google, Wiki, U.S. government data... anything. Just do some reading, any reading.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Sounds like a real accident. By using quotes I guess you thought it was unpurpose. So what reason did we have to purposely shoot down an Airbus anyway? A horrible mistake, yes, but an "accident"? Talk about paranoid;)
Still doesn't discount the country is potentially very dangerous, just like Iraq was. But history is history. We already know Iran is supporting terrorists that are killing US civilians. You're OK with that? Guess so. If you can criticise what we do, what do you propose we do in the future? Ignore any threat? According to you we should probably have blown up England a long time ago since look at what they did to us. The past is the past buddy. Let it go.
We wouldn't care about whats going on if that area didn't have such a strangle hold over everyone. The sick joke of it all is how just a few people, barely out of the dark ages, can easily manipulate the world. We'd be stupid not to find ways to influence whats going on. I guess we should just stay out of it all and let the pieces fall as they may. They all have our best wishes at heart over there, right?
It was flying low over an American warship and refusing to alter it's course from one comparable with a bombing run.
A mistake? Not exactly, if they did it again, they would get shot down again.
Sorry did I miss something? Which Iranian backed terrorists are these that are killing US civilians?
The imaginary ones or the ones in that Bruce Willis film?
Where was Bin Laden getting his money from? Iran? Iraq? Russia? North Korea? Thin air? It came from somewhere? Someone is giving money to people who want us dead. The most obvious culprits would be Iran or Sadam. Sadam is obviously not doing it, so who's left? My mistake, it was Bush all along. He gave them the money to blow up our own towers to go to war for no apparent reason....my bad=)
I don't think it was really an accident, that plane being shot down. It was a mistake since it was just an airbus. An accident? No. We didn't target and shoot it down just for the sake of it. We shot it down because it represented a threat of some sort.
Since you chose NOT to look up the article yourself, here are some more spoonfeedings:
Short recap for you:
Again, the U.S. has killed far more Iranians than vice-versa.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Father befriends Saudis and gets rich. Father loves son. Father gives son millions. Son has brothers. Brothers love son. Son gets millions. Saudi government knows son. Saudi government hates Israel. Son hates Israel. Saudis have chance to get Osama from Sudan for Clinton. Saudis friends with father's company. Saudis refuse to take Osama. Saudi government friend of US, who is friend of Israel. Saudis funnel money to son under the table. Son goes too far with plans. Son leaves country. U.S. invades Iraq to "find" son, who is in another country. U.S. spends trillions, VP gets old company, Halliburton, rich.
I bet Rush Limbaugh never mentioned this fact on his radio show, did he? The real world is crazy man... stop gaming for a bit and read up.
"TO MICHAEL!"
So blah, blah, blah...does any of that matter at all? Honestly? Should I suddenly feel sorry for Osama? SHould I feel remorse over his poor plight? How about mentioning what YOU THINK instead of reading Wikipedia. So the US does everything wrong and we deserve everything we get? Please Mr Lib, how about explaining what we should do. Whats it like living as an Ostrich?
Since Iran supports Hamas and Hamas wants Isreal and the US dead, it means Iran wants us dead as well. I forget, they're just minding their own business. Please do tell us what YOU think we should do instead of copying and pasting Wiki pages. You think I care where GW's grandfather made his money? Is it provable? Why wasn't it plastered all over NBC news during the elections? Sources please?
I'm curious who you love more, the US or terrorists? Seems you hate the US.