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Gangs Behind 80% of U.S. Crime

gnomexxxgnomexxx Member Posts: 2,920





FBI: Burgeoning gangs behind up to 80% of U.S. crime



Criminal gangs in the USA have swelled to an estimated 1 million members responsible for up to 80% of crimes in communities across the nation, according to a gang threat assessment compiled by federal officials.

The major findings in a report by the Justice Department's National Gang Intelligence Center, which has not been publicly released, conclude gangs are the "primary retail-level distributors of most illicit drugs" and several are "capable" of competing with major U.S.-based Mexican drug-trafficking organizations.

"A rising number of U.S.-based gangs are seemingly intent on developing working relationships" with U.S. and foreign drug-trafficking organizations and other criminal groups to "gain direct access to foreign sources of illicit drugs," the report concludes.

The gang population estimate is up 200,000 since 2005.

Bruce Ferrell, chairman of the Midwest Gang Investigators Association, whose group monitors gang activity in 10 states, says the number of gang members may be even higher than the report's estimate.



"We've seen an expansion for the last 10 years," says Ferrell, who has reviewed the report. "Each year, the numbers are moving forward."

'Growing threat' on the move

The report says about 900,000 gang members live "within local communities across the country," and about 147,000 are in U.S. prisons or jails.

"Most regions in the United States will experience increased gang membership … and increased gang-related criminal activity," the report concludes, citing a recent rise in gangs on the campuses of suburban and rural schools.

Among the report's other findings:

•Last year, 58% of state and local law enforcement agencies reported that criminal gangs were active in their jurisdictions, up from 45% in 2004.

•More gangs use the Internet, including encrypted e-mail, to recruit and to communicate with associates throughout the U.S. and other countries.

•Gangs, including outlaw motorcycle groups, "pose a growing threat" to law enforcement authorities along the U.S.-Canadian border. The U.S. groups are cooperating with Canadian gangs in various criminal enterprises, including drug smuggling.

Assistant FBI Director Kenneth Kaiser, the bureau's criminal division chief, says gangs have largely followed the migration paths of immigrant laborers.

He says the groups are moving to avoid the scrutiny of larger metropolitan police agencies in places such as Los Angeles. "These groups were hit hard in L.A." by law enforcement crackdowns, "but they are learning from it," Kaiser says.

MS-13 far-flung from L.A. incubator

One group that continues to spread despite law enforcement efforts is the violent Salvadoran gang known as MS-13.

Michael Sullivan, the departing director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, says the gang's dependence on shocking violence to advance extortion, prostitution and other criminal enterprises has frustrated attempts to infiltrate and disrupt the insular group's activities.

"MS-13's foothold in the U.S. is expanding," Sullivan says.

Kaiser says the street gang is in 42 states, up from 33 in 2005. "Enforcement efforts have been effective to a certain extent, but they (gang members) keep moving," he says.

MS-13 is the abbreviation for the gang also known as Mara Salvatrucha. The group gained national prominence in the 1980s in Los Angeles, where members were linked to incidents involving unusual brutality.

Since then, it has formed cells or "cliques" across the U.S., says Aaron Escorza, chief of the FBI's MS-13 National Gang Task Force.

The task force was launched in 2004 amid concerns about the gang's rapid spread. Gang members were targeted in broad investigations similar to those used to bust organized crime groups from Russia and Italy.

Among law enforcement efforts:

•Omaha: The last of 24 MS-13 members swept up on federal firearms charges and conspiracy to distribute methamphetamine were sentenced last year in the largest bust since the group emerged there in 2004.

The gang's strength dimmed as a result, but the nine-month probe did not eradicate the group, says Ferrell, who assisted in the investigation.

•Nashville: During the last two years, 14 MS-13 members pleaded guilty on charges ranging from murder to obstruction of justice.

Davidson County, Tenn., Sheriff Daron Hall, whose jurisdiction includes Nashville, says MS-13 started growing there about five years ago, corresponding with an influx of immigrant labor.

Last April, county officials began checking the immigration status of all arrestees. "We know we have removed about 100 gang members, including MS-13," to U.S. authorities for deportation, Hall says.

•Maryland: Earlier this month, federal authorities said they had convicted 42 MS-13 members since 2005. More than half were charged in a "racketeering conspiracy" in which members participated in robberies and beatings and arranged the murders of other gang members, according to Justice Department documents.

In one case, Maryland gang members allegedly discussed killing rivals with an MS-13 leader calling on a cellphone from a Salvadoran jail, the documents say.

Escorza says a "revolving door" on the border has kept the gang's numbers steady — about 10,000 in the U.S. — even as many illegal immigrant members are deported.

The FBI, which has two agents in El Salvador to help identify and track members in Central America and the United States, plans to dispatch four more agents to Guatemala and Honduras, Escorza says.

"They evolve and adapt," he says. "They know what law enforcement is doing. Word of mouth spreads quickly."

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Comments

  • EkibiogamiEkibiogami Member UncommonPosts: 2,154

    Time to Expand the Death Penalty...

    If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
    —Samuel Adams

  • WolfenprideWolfenpride Member Posts: 3,988
    Originally posted by Ekibiogami


    Time to Expand the Death Penalty...



     

    Would that apply to children to?

     

    Good sized group of kids in my school are known to be part of MS-13, or claim to be anyways

    While im not a fan of gang crimes and violence, individually some of them are really nice people, visit me occasionally at work.

     

  • Rikimaru_XRikimaru_X Member UncommonPosts: 11,718

    I know some pretty cool Bloods, but I have no clue why they are in the Bloods.They can do so much more without them. 80% of crimes I would assume are orgonized (in away). Got to have a backup plan to the backup plan then you have to have people you can go to. Why not the gang right?

    -In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08-
    |
    RISING DRAGOON ~AION US ONLINE LEGION for Elyos

  • CleffyCleffy Member RarePosts: 6,302

    I don't think an organized crime syndicate would go to a gang for a backup plan.  Its too much a liability as gangs crack easily under pressure.  Heck they don't fear jail, its like their 2nd home.  With a Chinese Style death penalty for extreme offenders.  I think they will fear jail.

  • Rikimaru_XRikimaru_X Member UncommonPosts: 11,718

    They may crack under pressure yes, but they always need the pawn peice to make the game overall turn out for the better. I've only been close to real Yaukaza and they are not nothing to mess with. I walk away from these guys thinking why the hell are they glorofied by some of them anime lovers.

    -In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08-
    |
    RISING DRAGOON ~AION US ONLINE LEGION for Elyos

  • TykeroTykero Member Posts: 349

    This stuff will continue until the United States stops giving gangs an easy and alluring source of income.

     

     

    I'm speaking, of course, of the abysmal failure that is the "War on Drugs."

     

    You'd think we'd learn after Prohibition (same exact situation essentially) but noooo.

     

     

    Education > Illegalization.

    -
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  • EkibiogamiEkibiogami Member UncommonPosts: 2,154
    Originally posted by Wolfenpride

    Originally posted by Ekibiogami


    Time to Expand the Death Penalty...



     

    Would that apply to children to?

     

    Good sized group of kids in my school are known to be part of MS-13, or claim to be anyways

    While im not a fan of gang crimes and violence, individually some of them are really nice people, visit me occasionally at work.

     



     

    All the Stupid Older boys keep getting put to death then you would probably see a sharp Drop in Youngsters beeing pulled in to gangs. More so if the Recuiters are put to death.

    If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
    —Samuel Adams

  • VemoiVemoi Member Posts: 1,546
    Originally posted by Wolfenpride

    Originally posted by Ekibiogami


    Time to Expand the Death Penalty...



     

    Would that apply to children to?

     

    Good sized group of kids in my school are known to be part of MS-13, or claim to be anyways

    While im not a fan of gang crimes and violence, individually some of them are really nice people, visit me occasionally at work.

     

    You have to be S$#*ing me. They are part of one of the worst gangs but hey, they are nice people. Probably going to church and MS-13 highway cleanup when not capp'n people.

     

  • Rikimaru_XRikimaru_X Member UncommonPosts: 11,718

    Don't know why nice people are in gangs anyway.

    -In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08-
    |
    RISING DRAGOON ~AION US ONLINE LEGION for Elyos

  • gnomexxxgnomexxx Member Posts: 2,920
    Originally posted by Wolfenpride

    Originally posted by Ekibiogami


    Time to Expand the Death Penalty...



     

    Would that apply to children to?

     

    Good sized group of kids in my school are known to be part of MS-13, or claim to be anyways

    While im not a fan of gang crimes and violence, individually some of them are really nice people, visit me occasionally at work.

     

    What?!?!?!  I'm sorry that you can't get perspective on this, but "nice" people do not join gangs.  Nice people go out and help others by doing things like volunteer work that help theirs and others communities.  Nice people put a value on ALL human life.  Nice people work to improve themselves morally so that they can be a fine example for others around them.

    Nice people do not join gangs that bring down society, kill other people, and inject poison into those around them!  

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  • dekmemufsidekmemufsi Member Posts: 2

    gangs, organized crimes, there are all responsible for most of serious crimes. petty crimes tend to be more caused by gangs. while drugs, kidnapping are done by organization of criminals.

  • WolfenprideWolfenpride Member Posts: 3,988
    Originally posted by Vemoi

    Originally posted by Wolfenpride

    Originally posted by Ekibiogami


    Time to Expand the Death Penalty...



     

    Would that apply to children to?

     

    Good sized group of kids in my school are known to be part of MS-13, or claim to be anyways

    While im not a fan of gang crimes and violence, individually some of them are really nice people, visit me occasionally at work.

     

    You have to be S$#*ing me. They are part of one of the worst gangs but hey, they are nice people. Probably going to church and MS-13 highway cleanup when not capp'n people.

     

    Your a pretty stereotypical person aren't you?

  • kimmarkimmar Member Posts: 446
    Originally posted by Rikimaru_X


    Don't know why nice people are in gangs anyway.

    Nice people aren't in gangs.  Nice people are out doing nice things, not engaging in anti-social behavior.

    =============================
    It all seems so stupid
    It makes me want to give up
    But why should I give up
    When it all seems so stupid

  • WolfenprideWolfenpride Member Posts: 3,988
    Originally posted by gnomexxx

    Originally posted by Wolfenpride

    Originally posted by Ekibiogami


    Time to Expand the Death Penalty...



     

    Would that apply to children to?

     

    Good sized group of kids in my school are known to be part of MS-13, or claim to be anyways

    While im not a fan of gang crimes and violence, individually some of them are really nice people, visit me occasionally at work.

     

    What?!?!?!  I'm sorry that you can't get perspective on this, but "nice" people do not join gangs.  Nice people go out and help others by doing things like volunteer work that help theirs and others communities.  Nice people put a value on ALL human life.  Nice people work to improve themselves morally so that they can be a fine example for others around them.

    Nice people do not join gangs that bring down society, kill other people, and inject poison into those around them!  



     

    And who are you to judge what makes a "good person?" Once again, your just stereotyping people you don't know jack about.

    Sorry but of the guys I met, they were nicer than some of the stuck up rich bitches in my school. I'm not going into them individually, and im certain for a fact they've more than likely done unlawful things, but they treat their friends with respect and kindness you would get from any other person from what i've seen.

  • gnomexxxgnomexxx Member Posts: 2,920
    Originally posted by Wolfenpride

    Originally posted by gnomexxx

    Originally posted by Wolfenpride

    Originally posted by Ekibiogami


    Time to Expand the Death Penalty...



     

    Would that apply to children to?

     

    Good sized group of kids in my school are known to be part of MS-13, or claim to be anyways

    While im not a fan of gang crimes and violence, individually some of them are really nice people, visit me occasionally at work.

     

    What?!?!?!  I'm sorry that you can't get perspective on this, but "nice" people do not join gangs.  Nice people go out and help others by doing things like volunteer work that help theirs and others communities.  Nice people put a value on ALL human life.  Nice people work to improve themselves morally so that they can be a fine example for others around them.

    Nice people do not join gangs that bring down society, kill other people, and inject poison into those around them!  



     

    And who are you to judge what makes a "good person?" Once again, your just stereotyping people you don't know jack about.

    Sorry but of the guys I met, they were nicer than some of the stuck up rich bitches in my school. I'm not going into them individually, and im certain for a fact they've more than likely done unlawful things, but they treat their friends with respect and kindness you would get from any other person from what i've seen.

    You are actually equating gang members with stuck up girls?  Seriously? 

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  • WolfenprideWolfenpride Member Posts: 3,988
    Originally posted by gnomexxx

    Originally posted by Wolfenpride

    Originally posted by gnomexxx

    Originally posted by Wolfenpride

    Originally posted by Ekibiogami


    Time to Expand the Death Penalty...



     

    Would that apply to children to?

     

    Good sized group of kids in my school are known to be part of MS-13, or claim to be anyways

    While im not a fan of gang crimes and violence, individually some of them are really nice people, visit me occasionally at work.

     

    What?!?!?!  I'm sorry that you can't get perspective on this, but "nice" people do not join gangs.  Nice people go out and help others by doing things like volunteer work that help theirs and others communities.  Nice people put a value on ALL human life.  Nice people work to improve themselves morally so that they can be a fine example for others around them.

    Nice people do not join gangs that bring down society, kill other people, and inject poison into those around them!  



     

    And who are you to judge what makes a "good person?" Once again, your just stereotyping people you don't know jack about.

    Sorry but of the guys I met, they were nicer than some of the stuck up rich bitches in my school. I'm not going into them individually, and im certain for a fact they've more than likely done unlawful things, but they treat their friends with respect and kindness you would get from any other person from what i've seen.

    You are actually equating gang members with stuck up girls?  Seriously? 

    Did I say "girls?"

    edit: Oh i see you misunderstood "bitches" as just a female crowd, no im refering to a general crowd of jerks basically. 

     

    And yes I am, im saying i find these "gang members" a much more pleasant crowd to hang out with casually, than alot of supposedly "nice people" i've met, who seem to be stuck up in their own little world. I'm sure that doesn't apply to everyone, but of the people i've met, this is the case.

    You seem to think its such an impossible idea that a "gang member" could have a decent mature attitude when he's on his own time?

  • gnomexxxgnomexxx Member Posts: 2,920
    Originally posted by Wolfenpride

    Originally posted by gnomexxx

    Originally posted by Wolfenpride

    Originally posted by gnomexxx

    Originally posted by Wolfenpride

    Originally posted by Ekibiogami


    Time to Expand the Death Penalty...



     

    Would that apply to children to?

     

    Good sized group of kids in my school are known to be part of MS-13, or claim to be anyways

    While im not a fan of gang crimes and violence, individually some of them are really nice people, visit me occasionally at work.

     

    What?!?!?!  I'm sorry that you can't get perspective on this, but "nice" people do not join gangs.  Nice people go out and help others by doing things like volunteer work that help theirs and others communities.  Nice people put a value on ALL human life.  Nice people work to improve themselves morally so that they can be a fine example for others around them.

    Nice people do not join gangs that bring down society, kill other people, and inject poison into those around them!  



     

    And who are you to judge what makes a "good person?" Once again, your just stereotyping people you don't know jack about.

    Sorry but of the guys I met, they were nicer than some of the stuck up rich bitches in my school. I'm not going into them individually, and im certain for a fact they've more than likely done unlawful things, but they treat their friends with respect and kindness you would get from any other person from what i've seen.

    You are actually equating gang members with stuck up girls?  Seriously? 

    Did I say "girls?"

    edit: Oh i see you misunderstood "bitches" as just a female crowd, no im refering to a general crowd of jerks basically. 

     

    And yes I am, im saying i find these "gang members" a much more pleasant crowd to hang out with casually, than alot of supposedly "nice people" i've met, who seem to be stuck up in their own little world. I'm sure that doesn't apply to everyone, but of the people i've met, this is the case.

    You seem to think its such an impossible idea that a "gang member" could have a decent mature attitude when he's on his own time?

    You're very young aren't you?  I guess so if you're trying to push this kind of argument over on people.

    This is going to sound condescending, and that's because you need a grown up talk.  But here's the facts.  Anyone who is not looking to cause trouble but instead wants to do something productive for society and their community is not going to seek out activities like joining a gang.  They would have no need to.  There are PLENTY of ways to express yourself in a positive way, I don't care what community you're from.  This is a choice that shows their intentions and what kind of mark they want to leave in life.



    Now, you may be referring to some gangsta wannabe's that you have come into contact with, that sort of sounds like what you're describing.  But even for that group it shows nothing but their impressionable and insecure personalities.  Whatever it is that made them that way, I don't care, but instead of trying to deal with their personality problems in a positive way they've instead chosen to act out in a way that shows their lack of insight and responsibility.

    Look, I realize you cannot see it now but your argument is very juvenile.  So are the actions of these people you seem to have respect for.  Those stuck up "bitches" may not seem like they are very cool to you but at least they've put a level of responsibility on themselves to not get mixed up in an organization that brags about dealing in illegal arms trafficking, drug smuggling, kidnapping and slave trade, putting hits on others, murder, robbery, and coercion of others like the young people in this country.  These guys you seem to like so much have in one way or another chosen to put the label of an organized crime group on themselves.



    Sorry if that does not hit home to you, but that's just the real world.

    I hope you do some real growing up before you go out and have children.  There are enough people now passing on this cultural problem and we don't need one more.  And I know you're going to most likely take what I said as an insult to you, but I honestly do hope you do some growing up.  It's not a bad thing to leave the boyhood games behind and realize your place in society.  One person can do a lot of good or they can pass on a lot of insecurity, confusion, and hardship to others.  It's a fork in the road and up to you to pick.

    If you parents somehow did this to you then why not stop the cycle?  If it wasn't your parents and they tried to teach you right from wrong, then why not respect what they taught you?

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  • WolfenprideWolfenpride Member Posts: 3,988
    Originally posted by gnomexxx

    Originally posted by Wolfenpride

    Originally posted by gnomexxx

    Originally posted by Wolfenpride

    Originally posted by gnomexxx

    Originally posted by Wolfenpride

    Originally posted by Ekibiogami


    Time to Expand the Death Penalty...



     

    Would that apply to children to?

     

    Good sized group of kids in my school are known to be part of MS-13, or claim to be anyways

    While im not a fan of gang crimes and violence, individually some of them are really nice people, visit me occasionally at work.

     

    What?!?!?!  I'm sorry that you can't get perspective on this, but "nice" people do not join gangs.  Nice people go out and help others by doing things like volunteer work that help theirs and others communities.  Nice people put a value on ALL human life.  Nice people work to improve themselves morally so that they can be a fine example for others around them.

    Nice people do not join gangs that bring down society, kill other people, and inject poison into those around them!  



     

    And who are you to judge what makes a "good person?" Once again, your just stereotyping people you don't know jack about.

    Sorry but of the guys I met, they were nicer than some of the stuck up rich bitches in my school. I'm not going into them individually, and im certain for a fact they've more than likely done unlawful things, but they treat their friends with respect and kindness you would get from any other person from what i've seen.

    You are actually equating gang members with stuck up girls?  Seriously? 

    Did I say "girls?"

    edit: Oh i see you misunderstood "bitches" as just a female crowd, no im refering to a general crowd of jerks basically. 

     

    And yes I am, im saying i find these "gang members" a much more pleasant crowd to hang out with casually, than alot of supposedly "nice people" i've met, who seem to be stuck up in their own little world. I'm sure that doesn't apply to everyone, but of the people i've met, this is the case.

    You seem to think its such an impossible idea that a "gang member" could have a decent mature attitude when he's on his own time?

    You're very young aren't you?  I guess so if you're trying to push this kind of argument over on people.

    This is going to sound condescending, and that's because you need a grown up talk.  But here's the facts.  Anyone who is not looking to cause trouble but instead wants to do something productive for society and their community is not going to seek out activities like joining a gang.  They would have no need to.  There are PLENTY of ways to express yourself in a positive way, I don't care what community you're from.  This is a choice that shows their intentions and what kind of mark they want to leave in life.

    Well im sorry that everyone doesn't fit your idea of a perfect community, but what makes you think every community or neighborhood is even capable of this? Alot of young kids join gangs for protection these days, especially in bad neighborhoods, or kids who have bad parents and are basically looking for a second family to go to. Is that wrong that they cannot rely on their familly or neighbors, and thus have to resort to joining a gang of some sort? What should a person in a situation similar to this do that would be considered "right?"

     

     



    Now, you may be referring to some gangsta wannabe's that you have come into contact with, that sort of sounds like what you're describing. But even for that group it shows nothing but their impressionable and insecure personalities. Whatever it is that made them that way, I don't care, but instead of trying to deal with their personality problems in a positive way they've instead chosen to act out in a way that shows their lack of insight and responsibility.

    I cannot honestly prove to anyone here whether they are just making claims or being honest, I am aware of a few families that are deeply involved in gang related business, but beyond that I don't know a whole lot, and I realize nothing I say here can really be considered as a fact. As for what makes them choose to join a gang, it could be multiple things, from insecurity, to abusive parents, bullying in school, etc. who knows. As for choosing not to take it out in a positive way, your kind of right about that, but not all kids get opportunities to deal with these kinds of things in a positive manner, especially if as i said, they have abusive parents and don't get along with their peers. It is a bad choice, but you have to look at where they are coming from.



    Look, I realize you cannot see it now but your argument is very juvenile. So are the actions of these people you seem to have respect for. Those stuck up "bitches" may not seem like they are very cool to you but at least they've put a level of responsibility on themselves to not get mixed up in an organization that brags about dealing in illegal arms trafficking, drug smuggling, kidnapping and slave trade, putting hits on others, murder, robbery, and coercion of others like the young people in this country. These guys you seem to like so much have in one way or another chosen to put the label of an organized crime group on themselves.

    I understand you don't like the idea of arguing with someone most likely younger than you, and thats fine if you feel my opinion is very juvenile. And as I said, not all of these "bad people" are completely disgusting people, and not all join a gang simply because they want to commit crimes as you've listed, I went into that in my above argument. Your right they chose to get involved in this, but as I said, they don't always join because they want to, and they may not enjoy the things they are basically forced to do in certain gangs. Hell ive heard of people being basically forced into associating with gangs. Given that kind of situation, does that make them a bad person?





    Sorry if that does not hit home to you, but that's just the real world.

    I hope you do some real growing up before you go out and have children.  There are enough people now passing on this cultural problem and we don't need one more.  And I know you're going to most likely take what I said as an insult to you, but I honestly do hope you do some growing up.  It's not a bad thing to leave the boyhood games behind and realize your place in society.  One person can do a lot of good or they can pass on a lot of insecurity, confusion, and hardship to others.  It's a fork in the road and up to you to pick.

    If you parents somehow did this to you then why not stop the cycle?  If it wasn't your parents and they tried to teach you right from wrong, then why not respect what they taught you?

    As for all of this..do you want to stay on the topic, or do you want to go out of your way to start judging both the people around me and myself? It's a little bit disrespectful, and frankly im not going to argue with you about what kind of person I am, or how I should live my life. I realize it you might have not wanted to be insultive, but it is fact just that, so lets skip past this kind of talk alright?



     You seem to believe that their is only one right way to live your life in this country, and that everyone is capable of doing such. Sadly, it doesn't appear things always work out like that. Gangs are a way of life in some places in this country, and if you aren't in one your basically messed with by everyone. Like I said, kids don't always just join for shit's 'n giggles, some do it for money if their familly is perhaps extremely poor, some do it for protecting themselves and their familly from the very gangs they join, and then their are those who join who I agree, are rotten people and just enjoy killing and stealing and such.

    But it is wrong to claim that all gang members are these kinds of people.

  • tvalentinetvalentine Member Posts: 4,216

    legalize the death penalty and send the military in to gang infested communities, since the police aren't doing very well on their own.

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  • grayzaratgrayzarat Member Posts: 17

    you know, to an extent i have to agree with wolfenpride.  Eliminate a society that alienates and subjugates the minority (class and race) into fearing authority (i.e. corrupt government, economy, and police force) and you won't have gangs.  No, violence isn't a good thing, and drug trafficking only perpetuates the problems that already exist in the lower-class society- but its hard to blame those forced into situations with little upward mobility in society.  I get utterly frustrated when I hear people say that minorities (more specifically lower-class blacks) should have pulled themselves up by their bootstraps by now, when as of as recently as 50 years ago the we were forcefully restricting them from progressing in society (if not more recently, for that matter).  It seems incredibly easy to be self-righteous and judgemental of them, when you have no concept of living in those social circumstances (this coming form a middle class, white dude) but seriously, guys.  I mean, i'm not trying to seem naivly altruistic, lets be honest- i could never personally relate to these issues, but it frustrates me to encounter such stubborn pseudo-lawfulness.

    oh, and concerning the military- I don't mean to sound like i'm wearing a tin-foil hat here, but after the rampant amount of privatization going on in the military over the last 8 years, i find it hard to understand why even veterans/ active soldiers would have any faith in the governments usage of the military these days.  seriously, a few billion dollars in debt to mercenary groups who constantly commit war crimes with zero punishment while our own soldiers are court martialed, and we sit here acting as though we behave righteously in foreign affairs?  meanwhile many governmental officials capitalize off this privitization (haliburton, etc). 

    I realize i'm ranting a bit, but it astounds me at how one-sided people's perspectives can be.   

    Oh, and p.s. this doesnt even begin to consider how corrupt prisons have become.  Did most of you know that we use prisons as 3rd world labor (so to speak).  Companies liek Victoria Secret, Levis(i may be wrong on which jeans company it is here), etc use them to create their products.  No, i dont think labor for the incarcirated is bad, but go ahead and tell me that there isn't incentive to lengthen sentences when corporations are creating revenue from prisoners.  Economy = justice system = bad.

  • gnomexxxgnomexxx Member Posts: 2,920
    Originally posted by grayzarat


    you know, to an extent i have to agree with wolfenpride.  Eliminate a society that alienates and subjugates the minority (class and race) into fearing authority (i.e. corrupt government, economy, and police force) and you won't have gangs.  No, violence isn't a good thing, and drug trafficking only perpetuates the problems that already exist in the lower-class society- but its hard to blame those forced into situations with little upward mobility in society.  I get utterly frustrated when I hear people say that minorities (more specifically lower-class blacks) should have pulled themselves up by their bootstraps by now, when as of as recently as 50 years ago the we were forcefully restricting them from progressing in society (if not more recently, for that matter).  It seems incredibly easy to be self-righteous and judgemental of them, when you have no concept of living in those social circumstances (this coming form a middle class, white dude) but seriously, guys.  I mean, i'm not trying to seem naivly altruistic, lets be honest- i could never personally relate to these issues, but it frustrates me to encounter such stubborn pseudo-lawfulness.
    oh, and concerning the military- I don't mean to sound like i'm wearing a tin-foil hat here, but after the rampant amount of privatization going on in the military over the last 8 years, i find it hard to understand why even veterans/ active soldiers would have any faith in the governments usage of the military these days.  seriously, a few billion dollars in debt to mercenary groups who constantly commit war crimes with zero punishment while our own soldiers are court martialed, and we sit here acting as though we behave righteously in foreign affairs?  meanwhile many governmental officials capitalize off this privitization (haliburton, etc). 
    I realize i'm ranting a bit, but it astounds me at how one-sided people's perspectives can be.   
    Oh, and p.s. this doesnt even begin to consider how corrupt prisons have become.  Did most of you know that we use prisons as 3rd world labor (so to speak).  Companies liek Victoria Secret, Levis(i may be wrong on which jeans company it is here), etc use them to create their products.  No, i dont think labor for the incarcirated is bad, but go ahead and tell me that there isn't incentive to lengthen sentences when corporations are creating revenue from prisoners.  Economy = justice system = bad.

    Dang, talk about stereotyping!  

    Did anyone say anything about any race at all in this topic up until now?  Nope!  This has nothing to do with race, this has to do with gangs.  This would be the same issue if we were talking about the mafia.  It's a culture of violence and irresponsible anti social behavior that we're talking about.

    You say you get utterly frustrated, well I get utterly frustrated with people making excuses for other people's chosen behaviors.  You said it yourself, these are corrupt people, yet you go on to try to make up an excuse for them.

    And PLEASE don't try to stray off topic by saying one thing is worse than another.  This is the topic at hand.  This is 80 freakin' percent of our crime.  That is a big issue that needs to be dealt with.

    You want to make excuses for these people and try to figure out where things went wrong, then fine go study abnormal psychology and go into the prisons and do your Mother Theresa tour of duty.  But in the meantime, the law abiding people in this country want this taken care of now before it destroys what's left of us.

    I do not have a problem recognizing people doing bad things.  And I do not have a problem with punishing them for what they have done.  Especially once they reach an age where they are quite aware of what they're doing but still carry on like animals.

    You want to start a new topic about other things going wrong in this country then have at it.  But this is about tackling the 80% of crime problem quickly and effectively.  These people know nothing but force because that is what they've learned.  How they learned it, at this point, I really don't care anymore.  All I care about is the safety of my family and them not feeling threatened by a bunch of thugs.  Like I said, if you believe that strongly in the psychological problems these people are facing then you go get the PhD and go fix 'em. 



    In the meantime quit giving us excuses and act like we're supposed to see someone doing violent acts against innocent citizens and say, "Awww, poor baby, come here and let me give you a hug.  Did those mean people not give you what you were entitled to?  You were justified to hurt those baddies."  

    Personally, I'm to the point where I think this country has created a big group of whiny ass babies who throw a fit and act out when they find out they have to be responsible for themselves and don't want to.  It's pathetic what we've turned into.

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  • ScalebaneScalebane Member UncommonPosts: 1,881

    Wow..so many people who don't have a clue in this topic...

     

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    "The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
    - Lewis Thomas

  • kimmarkimmar Member Posts: 446

    I live in San Diego.  The gangs are getting really bad here.  I have lived here for quite some time and I can completely remember when it was so much safer to just go out and walk down the street.  It is completely different now.  Even the boardwalk has become a place that people are scared to go walk on at night.

    Anyone who thinks that a group of people who commit themselves to criminal activity and form an organized group to make it more successful has given up on being a part of society and they need to be treated as such.  And how even the most naive of kids would want to get wrapped up in that or think that it is cool is just a sign of how much a failure some parents are.

    Here on the border of Mexico (Tijuana), nobody will go across anymore.  And just recently the Marines and sailors here were advised (actually ordered) not to go down there at all.  Kidnappings, murders, and drug smuggling are horrible there and they are making their way into our once beautiful, fun, and generally safe city.  I love San Diego.  I would hate to see it fall apart like so many other cities have done once these criminals make their way into the streets.  They have no intention of trying to fix things, they only want to take and destroy.

    I have three boys and if things get worse then my husband and I will be forced to move.  It will sadden me greatly.  This used to be a wonderful place, now it's getting dangerous and falling apart.  But their safety and future is more important than anything to us.  I don't want them exposed to that kind of corruption.  And it's beginning to show itself in their schools now.

    I have family in Seattle.  I guess we have an out if needed. 

    =============================
    It all seems so stupid
    It makes me want to give up
    But why should I give up
    When it all seems so stupid

  • grayzaratgrayzarat Member Posts: 17

    I sympathise with you kimmar,  and i didn't mean to sound like i was vailidating extreme violence, drug trafficking, or anything like that.  You and all of us want to maintain a safe livelihood for ourselves and our children.  to that extent, elimination of gangs and gang crime is incredibyl important.

    What i was getting at before (and this isn't directed towards you specifically kimmar), was simply to bring to the surface discussion concerning much of why gang violene exists in our society. I by no means meant to sound as though i excuse this sort of activity- because i dont. Though everyone is completely justified to vilify those who harm them, I do think fervent complicity to existing, faulty social and economic paradigms that could be improved is regressive.  It may have seemed off topic for me to bring up government, police force, military, etc, but truely we cannot look at any group that acts contrary to society without also looking at society.  My commentary may not have the immediecy of "send the military in and kill the bastards", but all eliminating one group does is give rise to the next- the long term ailments of poor educational systems, and the vilification and subjugation of the lower class by popular culture play much more a part in why many young kids find little hope in the promises of standard society.  When you see almost no possibility of escaping the enormity of poverty, crime presents a more accessible avenue to success (and ultimately standard of living).  This comes simply down to protecting your interests.  WE want to elimate crime we rightfully want to protect our family, and put food on the table.  Likewise,  many criminals are seduced by crime at the prospect of self-preservation (or putting food on the table) in an environment that doesn't want them to exist any more.  I brought up class AND race (not just race, thank you), because they are intimately related to these circumstances. 

    Again, i want to clarify that i'm not saying all this out of some "mother therisa" (as whatshisname put it) type of altruism (as if the persuit of a more compasionate society is bad.. HAH), simply because i have no intimate understanding of that lifestyle as a middle class white dude.  to propose i wholistically understood would be a pure act of vanity.  I do think attempting to understand these issues wholistically, however, is a worthwhile endevour.  If you want to help eliminate crime, and you have the resources to do so,  I would suggest support of a better funded educational system (and higher wages for teachers) amongst many other standards of living.

    Oh and forgive the many typos..

  • AmpallangAmpallang Member Posts: 396
    Originally posted by Wolfenpride

    Originally posted by Ekibiogami


    Time to Expand the Death Penalty...



     

    Would that apply to children to?

     

    Good sized group of kids in my school are known to be part of MS-13, or claim to be anyways

    While im not a fan of gang crimes and violence, individually some of them are really nice people, visit me occasionally at work.

     

     

    That sounds more like teens than children.  What age range you speaking of there. 

    If you are not being responded to directly, you are probably on my ignore list.

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