Still, they could have put in a few RAIDs for the no-lifers, they are paying customers too and it wouldn' t really affect your gameplay, would it?
Apparently it does. The argument is that since they (non-hardcores) pay $15 per month that entitles them to see all content regardless of how much, or little, effort they put in.
Admittedly there is a logic to their thinking. "Why is someone getting to do more than me without having to pay extra?" It is then pointed out that these people who see more content put in more time and effort. The common reply to this is "I dont have enough time to put that much effort in".
A lot of us thought that Blizzard had solved the problem with heroic and non-heroic version of raids (10/25 man). A lot of thought that the 10 man was going to be the easy "casual" version and the 25 man version the "hardcore" version.
By the second week of release, 4 of us (not 5) had 4 man'd every heroic instance and drained them of every epic that was an upgrade, before I even had to resub (luckily there was no need) our guild completed every 25 man encounter aside from malygos. And I can assure you, the guild I was in had an astounding number of mentally challenged people who couldn't follow instructions, didn't comprehend the concept of teamwork yet still beat all but one end game encounter within just a few weeks of an expansion years in the making. In the end we weren't up against a challenging game that forced us to think and react, we were competing against brain dead guildmates that managed to stumble through everything else and (successfully) did the same on raids. I have a feeling Blizzard is well aware of how many mentally deficient players they've attracted, and as such relied on them to provide the challenge for the remaining few. Face it, it wasn't a challenge and it was abysmally shallow. I could look past the lack of challenge if the game actually had some depth to it, and a community that wasn't a pack of degenerate snot ridddled mutants. Unfortunately though, that's what pandering to the lowest common denominator brings.
So would you like a cookie? Seriously, congrats to you and your mates but there are thousands of players who are still doing Naxx and other content and enjoying it. What I would like to know is how much time you put in.
Going by what you said, you leveled to 80, farmed the appropriate factions, did all heroics and raids in 2 weeks. That is not casual and that brings us back to the beginnings on the argument.
And thanks for all of the insults and name calling of WOW players. This really shows your elitist attitude towards the game and the community and to be honest, if you feel such a way - move along. WOW, its community and the game are obviously not for you and I recommend checking out Darkfall, Mortal Online or something you are more suited to play.
A cookie? No thanks, just replying to the guy that asked what made WoW so easy .
You can keep the cookie, I played WoW for a few weeks after the latest expansion came out, I've had enough things handed to me for free
If you've experienced a server in which the vast majority of players didn't default to insulting, rude and childish behavior, you may want to leave the name of that server here as some people may be interested in trying it out, I know many have left because of the community. I've played on US & EU servers and would really be impressed if there was some magical pocket of people tucked away on some mystical WoW server in which they could actually hold conversation with eachother and function as a "community".
If you're not one of them then there's no need to be offended. But for everyones sake, don't defend them.
If wanting to be challenged and not handed some of the best items in game for little to no effort, and actually wanting to spend online time with fairly decent and nice people makes me elitist, then sign me up.
Fair enough, some of us have been playing MMOs for years before WoW even existed, and as WoW is just a simplified, dumbed down emulator of previous games (although it is very polished), many of the mechanics are all too familiar. This in fact would make it a lot easier for us than those who can't seem to wrap their heads around certain gameplay elements.
So I'll rephrase it, in comparison to the games WoW emulates, you can succeed with a lot less finesse, precision and coordination in WoW.
Originally posted by Valkaern In the end we weren't up against a challenging game that forced us to think and react, we were competing against brain dead guildmates that managed to stumble through everything else and (successfully) did the same on raids. I have a feeling Blizzard is well aware of how many mentally deficient players they've attracted, and as such relied on them to provide the challenge for the remaining few.
As much as I dislike railing on WoW, I have to agree here. Every time a major content patch comes out, my wife and I end up resubbing and play through, only to be chased away by the inability to complete content simply through the pathetic efforts of whatever half-wit guild we end up in. The "serious" guilds are even worse, and usually reward people based on how much mouthing off they do, rather than their actual contribution to the groups.
One particular example that jumps to mind involved a gnome rogue in the guild who was well known for Cold-Blood Ambushing small critters in the big raid dungeons, and using the extra damage boosts to pad his DPS meters so he could pat himself on the back at the end of the night.
The sad part was that he could still barely keep up with the rest of us, and yet got the most loot out of anyone in the group.
Still, they could have put in a few RAIDs for the no-lifers, they are paying customers too and it wouldn' t really affect your gameplay, would it?
Apparently it does. The argument is that since they (non-hardcores) pay $15 per month that entitles them to see all content regardless of how much, or little, effort they put in.
Admittedly there is a logic to their thinking. "Why is someone getting to do more than me without having to pay extra?" It is then pointed out that these people who see more content put in more time and effort. The common reply to this is "I dont have enough time to put that much effort in".
A lot of us thought that Blizzard had solved the problem with heroic and non-heroic version of raids (10/25 man). A lot of thought that the 10 man was going to be the easy "casual" version and the 25 man version the "hardcore" version.
Why Blizzard didn't follow that I dont know.
Why not just pay extra a month, that way you would not even have to play the game anymore? If you want to base WoW on some sort of cash cow system. Then what you need is an Asian Item shop.
So whats the argument that because we pay the same you should always get what the guy who works harder than you gets? Some sort of WoW socialism. They do more than you because they are in a better guild, they play better than you do, also possibly way smarter.
I think they should have put in the old Wimpy system from muds back in the day, that way bad players/guilds could study or look at a mob before attacking it and get warnings before hand. Like " monster will kill you" " monster laughs at your armor" or " monster will spit fire on your roasted corpse" that kind of thing. I think that would have helped. Instead we have an army of bad players wanting the same thing for nothing. Now we have WOTLK.
Originally posted by floppyface Why didn't you just write TL;DR? Congratulations, you did use "wall of text". But you forgot to say that Mwaji lives in his "mom's basement" and that he should "get a life". You did use "fail" so points for you there. "Cool story, bro" would also have been acceptable as would "QQ moar". Now run along and take your Ritalin. The WoW General Discussion forum is missing you.
If I wrote TL;DR I would be lying. I read the whole damn thing hoping that the post would redeem itself at the end. It didn't. Unfortunately.
Why should I accuse Mwaji of living in his mom's basement when I do not know that for sure? Maybe he does. Maybe he doesn't. But I don't care one bit and I can't see what good it would do. Nor am I going to tell him to get a life. That would be calling pot kettle.
I prefer not to run due to my arthritis and suggesting Ritalin... eh... ever heard of such a thing as potentially fatal drug interactions? Oh, and if you mean the official WoW General Discussion forum. Can't. My sub expired 2 days ago
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Well, the answer is simple: The people saying that WotLK is easy are probably die-hards who have been playing since pre-BC. And WoW's "difficulty" can be measured by how hard it is to attain gear.
Correct me now if you think i'm wrong, but isn't the BIGGEST purpose of WoW on an individual basis to get that next piece of awesome gear? Aside from having fun while doing it, of course.
Now, pre-BC if you were in a raiding guild you knew the kind of dedication and slow process to gearing up that was required of you.
The thing is, not everyone was like that.
Blizzard has taken their game in a direction to make it more enjoyable for casual players.
BC was a good start: Heroics, 10man Raids and 25mans for the best content as opposed to 40mans.
Imo, the balancing should have stoped there, because even with making it easier for casuals to raid, it still made it relatively challenging for hardcore players (IE: 5+hours a day).
However, now they've taken it a step further and have made it so ALL content, can be done with a group of 10 (yes, you will even be able to kill Arthas, with 10 people).
Wether someone wants to argue with me or not, WoW's difficulty factor since its released has been based on one thing: The ability to gather a large group of poeple (40 of them, pre-BC) and get them to do their jobs and follow instructions precisely with little to no errors which in turn determines how hard it is to attain gear, adding in things like low drop rates, lock out periods and... -shudders- DKP...
Organizing 40 people and getting them to do what they're supposed to do when they're supposed to do it was a tough job.
However, the difficulty has been lowered by 75% since pre-BC if you follow my train of thought.
You can see everything there is to see, with 10 people.
Granted, you will need 25 if you want "the best" gear, however with 10 people you will be hard pressed to get a situation like "It was to hard to organize a raid for BWL so I never saw the inside of it, Ever."
Also, along the same lines: Gearing up for Raiding content has been made that much easier aswell.
You can get a -FULL- set of very decent epics through Heroics and Crafting now. Pre BC one could only DREAM of having a full set of epics if they were not in a large raiding guild.
This, is why people are saying WotLK has become to easy. Atleast... thats the way I see it.
Btw, This intire discussion was based more so around PvE . If you want to add in PvP, one word: Arenas.
Oh wait... Another three words: Rediculously Imbalanced Classes
I started playing WotLK when it came out and was cleared with Heroic Naxx, Maly and Sarth3D 2-3 months or so later.
I admit I do play alot, about 30hours a week. But now I have nothing left to do unless I want to roll a new character, repeat content I have already done atleast 5-10times, or play in rediculously imbalanced PvP.
If WotLK were a rerelease of WoW Vanilla, Assuming no one knew the content, I'd be halfway through MC with my guild if I was lucky.
Round up once again: ---- PVE: Only 15% of ALL the guilds in Wow have NAX 25 on farm. Enough raiding progress websites to look into on that. Nax 25 is not Nax 10. Period. Making the thread of "I already cleared evverything in 3 months time" useless, because not relevenant tx to a personal view and the overall stats of progress on WotLK. ---- PVP balancing: the Arena system assures us all, that ALL classes can make it in the top arena team. Arena stats are constantly used to aid in further polishment of interaction between the classes. Patch 3.08 was a very good example of this (as was in the past patch 2.3). Guys above positng statements like "unbalanced" are a laugh, because they use the same arena results as everyone else does... THE difference is that Blizzard tweaks them accordingly (again with the arena data) so every patch is further fine tuning and the moaner just ... moans because they loose points on their personal views/winnings. Every other MMO maker says "our classes are balanced" while at least in Wow ALL can control the results in the top Arena ratings and everyone can see the balance needed. So Wow uses the best possible techniques in balance, while the others say 'there is no class balance we are group balanced" . yep so Arena is a perfect tool to demonstrate which classes need further tuning. Discussion closed. --- Not one of the 5.000.000 western players could do the achievements list of WotLK - not even after 4 months. They didn't even come close till this moment.
Ok.... You must be confused.
First of all ,the discussion of this thread is why is WotLK so EASY.
Your argument of "Oh only 15% of all guilds have Naxx on farm" means fuck all. The fact is that raiding guilds DO have them on farm status so quickly.
On top of that, why don't you do some research as to how many of those guilds are actually RAIDING?
I bet you my left testicle at least 20% of those guilds are lowbie guilds and at least another 20% are filled with people who play that often. And then there are the PvP centric guilds, twink guilds included. Oh and what about the guilds that no longer have active players... they're still there you know.
Statistics don't mean shit when you haven't filtered them properly. 15% of ALL guilds in the game is infact a LARGE number when you look at the potential facts eh?
Secondly - The main argument was about PvE not PvP... *sigh* I have no idea why you are so stubborn and blind to argue that Arenas account for amazing balancing tools.
For example: 2v2, Two Equally geared and equally skilled Ret Paladins vs. equally geared and equally skilled Arms Warriors. You ask ANYONE, who would win, guaranteed they will tell you the Paladins will win.
Furthermore - You face up a Ret Pally or DK and/or Rogue duo, vs. oooh lets say.. An Ele shaman and a Shadowpriest. Who's gonna win? Oh ummm the Pally/DK/Rogue combo, of course.
How can you sit there and tell me the classes are balanced when there are some that can't even compete?
Especially with the way resillience is.
No sir, classes are not balanced. And PvP in general on WoW 50% of its deciding factor is your gear anyways. You give a player with 2k rating in the arena and match him up with a character in all blues vs. a character in all epics and you've DRASTICALLY reduced his chance to win.
The fact is: Just because there are a "few" high rating teams with all classes, doesn't mean they're balanced.
Balanced means, when a player of equal gear and equal skill go against each other they have a fair chance to beat each other.
In WoW: A Ret Pally, DK, Rogue have WAY more utility then any other DPS class atm in PvP (I dunno, they changed Locks since I quit so maybe they're back in business). Leaving out a ton fo other DPS classes that cannot compete in PvP and are forced to give up or switch to Support specs.
Stop trying to base your arguments on rediculously out of context statistics.
However, with all that being said WoW's PvP is not horrible, its not amazing, but not horrible. But honestly, if your a hardcore PvP'r you don't want to play the carebear bullcrap that it is. No risk, all reward.
First PvP: The offical Arena tournaments are for 3 vs 3/ The top arena teams demonstrate a rather good representation of all classes in this field. Of course some classes are more represented (like Paladins), but they also serve as both DPS and healer classes. PvP in this game is HARD, because ladder based rated and so deprives you from the best PvP weapons in the game if you don't play like a semi God. The arena system shows data which other MMO makers can't sample. As a development tool it is a magnificent balancing tool. Thats BS. Data shows it's bs, been over this a thousand times, still BS. Second PVE: About 15% of all the guilds have Nax25 on farm these days. I find this perfect. I am in a guild which is on position 34 on our server (were 50 in TBC). We still need to down three more bosses in Nax25. So Nax 10 is on farm with only one group, not the two others, not Nax 25 either. Blizzard knows very well how much content is being uncovered by the % of players. And they act accordingly. In another post I made the "calculation" that perhaps 400K EU players are above me in Raid content, but that also means more than 2.000.000 players are nowhere near. And I talk accounts here (not characters). My guess is that those who are really really playing it "hard" level a seond character from 70 to 80. I know the hardcore PvP arena players have 3 classes they play with. So ... they all have their hands full. But the other 85% of the PVE(raiders) are quite happy with the current scheme and difficulty of WotlK; Lawl..... erm no. I copied already my characters (lvl 70 and lvl 80) onto the new opened PTR server. Did you ? Because it means the content patch of 3.1 will go live within 30 days something. My personal guess is they will open it when 25% of the raiding guilds have cleared the Nax content. As for me, I am still playing my main and just have to redo Bg's just because I wanted to respec from healer to DPS (I do this every season btw). So I don't know where to begin first and the new content patch will come at least 2 months too soon for me. So being a normal player at 3 or 4 hours a day, I only find myself struggling to keep up with it all.
You just could have cut and pasted any normal fanboi post from a previous topic and used that, that's the same tired half truths and lies about pvp and pve. PvP is obviously not balanced and not OK, pve is obviously a cake walk, the only hurdle there is mental capacity.
First PvP: The offical Arena tournaments are for 3 vs 3/ The top arena teams demonstrate a rather good representation of all classes in this field. LOL WUT? www.sk-gaming.com/arena/team/3/all/all/all/all/ Count the rogues and paladins. Next count the warlocks and shamans. Rogue, disc priest, mage is the paladin counter-comp. Its impossible to beat paladin teams without a priest for mass dispel. Rogue, disc priest, mage is a powerful combo because paladins are so strong. People are picking counter comps because there are so many paladins around. How many warlock/enhancement shaman/arms warrior do you seen? None. Of course some classes are more represented (like Paladins), but they also serve as both DPS and healer classes. PvP in this game is HARD, because ladder based rated and so deprives you from the best PvP weapons in the game if you don't play like a semi God. Would you like to see the video of the 2k rated deathknight who is a keyboard turner and clicker? www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php To say he was awful was an understatement. The arena system shows data which other MMO makers can't sample. As a development tool it is a magnificent balancing tool. Have you been licking those mushrooms in Zangamarsh again? Second PVE: About 15% of all the guilds have Nax25 on farm these days. I find this perfect. I am in a guild which is on position 34 on our server (were 50 in TBC). We still need to down three more bosses in Nax25. So Nax 10 is on farm with only one group, not the two others, not Nax 25 either. Pig's arse. Even crappy wowjust has HEROIC KT kills at 31% and Wowprogress has heroic KT kills at 35%! Sorry, the 15% you pulled out of your butt is WRONG. 10 man KT is at a whopping 58% on wowjutsu. I couldn't find the 10 man KT % on wowprogress but I'm going to guess its over 60% And it has already been pointed out sites like wowjutsu and wowprogress (viewed as more accurate than wowjutsu) do not include PvP guilds, alt guids, former raiding guilds than only have a few alts left in them etc. Most of the raiding guilds I've been that stop raiding dont disband and still have a few max-level alts in them. And most importantly not every person is going for 25 man heroic kills. Lots of small guilds are happy doing 10 man version of raids. Blizzard knows very well how much content is being uncovered by the % of players. And they act accordingly. In another post I made the "calcualton" that perhaps 400K EU players are above me in Raid content, but that also means more than 2.000.000 players are nowhere near. And I talk accounts here (not characters). You making up numbers doesn't constitute facts. NA and EU combined has around 5,500,000 accounts which means at least 2 millin people had downed KT in heroic mode. And thats not including Blizzard's biggest market the "5 cents a month Asian accounts". But the other 85% of the PVE(raiders) are quite happy with the current scheme and difficulty of WotlK; If you use faulty statistics you're going to get faulty conclusions. I copied already my characters (lvl 70 and lvl 80) onto the new opened PTR server. Did you ? Because it means the content patch of 3.1 will go live within 30 days something. My personal guess is they will open it when 25% of the raiding guilds have cleared the Nax content. 3.1 PTR is not opened yet. 22% of guilds have downed Heroic Malygos. 35% have down KT and Satharion. 35% of guilds have done 16/17 bosses in heroic mode. 40% have normal (10 man) Malygos. I'd imagine that a small, but reasonable, amount of players have done 25 man Malygos and not 10 man just like a lot of guilds dont bother with 10 man 3 drake sartharion.
3.1 PTR is not opened yet. 22% of guilds have downed Heroic Malygos. 35% have down KT and Satharion. 35% of guilds have done 16/17 bosses in heroic mode. 40% have normal (10 man) Malygos. I'd imagine that a small, but reasonable, amount of players have done 25 man Malygos and not 10 man just like a lot of guilds dont bother with 10 man 3 drake sartharion.
Not sure where the data comes from, about assuming its valid, then that is my point about the "easiness of WOW."
60% of players haven't downed Malygos.
88% haven't downed Heroic Malygos.
65% haven't cleared Naxx.
65% haven't cleared heroic Naxx.
And as you guess, even less have done the 3 drake thing.
Sorry but none of that is even close to a majority of the players (10 percentage points is not statistically close). When the numbers drop well below 50% then we have an argument. But again assuming those numbers are valid (I would like to see the source), the WOW being easy for the majority of players is an invalid argument.
Lulz @ your math.
And secondly, your assuming every single player on WoW plays to raid or for that matter CAN raid, which is widely absurd. Take into account the those percentages contain people who arn't level 80 yet and people who don't WANT to raid (IE: PvPers).
3.1 PTR is not opened yet. 22% of guilds have downed Heroic Malygos. 35% have down KT and Satharion. 35% of guilds have done 16/17 bosses in heroic mode. 40% have normal (10 man) Malygos. I'd imagine that a small, but reasonable, amount of players have done 25 man Malygos and not 10 man just like a lot of guilds dont bother with 10 man 3 drake sartharion.
Not sure where the data comes from, about assuming its valid, then that is my point about the "easiness of WOW."
60% of players haven't downed Malygos.
88% haven't downed Heroic Malygos.
65% haven't cleared Naxx.
65% haven't cleared heroic Naxx.
And as you guess, even less have done the 3 drake thing.
Sorry but none of that is even close to a majority of the players (10 percentage points is not statistically close). When the numbers drop well below 50% then we have an argument. But again assuming those numbers are valid (I would like to see the source), the WOW being easy for the majority of players is an invalid argument.
Lulz @ your math.
And secondly, your assuming every single player on WoW plays to raid or for that matter CAN raid, which is widely absurd. Take into account the those percentages contain people who arn't level 80 yet and people who don't WANT to raid (IE: PvPers).
Um my math is fine statistically.
You are right about not everyone being able to raid. However, without more information on the data itself, I assumed it was based off of those who are ABLE to raid - therefore level 80 only.
But it doesn't matter at all because the argument is valid. Trolls want to argue that EVERYONE (their word) finds WOW too easy, EVERYONE has cleared Naxx, EVERYONE is bored with the game....so I am basing my argument on that same EVERYONE.
And thank you for proving and pointing out another hole in their argument - not everyone raids and not everyone wants too.
But to get in any more depth of a discussion about the data we would need to know where i comes from and how statistically significant it is. Otherwise we are just guessing.
22% of guilds have downed Heroic Malygos.
88% haven't downed Heroic Malygos.
Yes, I was laughing at your math.
And Trolls are Trolls and should never be taken seriously anyways. However, when I speak i'm talking for the Hardcore gamers. The people who actually cleared Naxx before WotLK.
You're right, not everyone has cleared Naxx. However the VAST MAJORITY of guilds who actually have their shit together have cleared the majority of raiding content. And not simply because they have their shit together, but because the content is old and stale and stagnant and easy as fuck.
My argument is, and always has been, WoW has become a casual players game and not a hardcore players game. If your argument is for EVERYONE, then yes, maybe the game is not to easy. But my argument is for the people who play everyday and have a guild that know what the hell they are doing.
Maybe when Ulduar comes out I'll reopen my account for a month and help my guild clear it and close it again until the next content patch. But as it stands, I have nothing to do (we even have a ton of achievements, but we never "aimed for them" but they're mostly boring gimmicks anyways).
Everyone up here makes for very strange stats ... Let's do simple maths.... Take this example please: a normal PVE server and a "normal" guild in position 6983 in EU (17000 in the world). Take a normal EU PVE server and look: at a guild called Dragonsbane: So what did they do:www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/dragonblight/DragonsBane 3 quarters of 25 NAX 1 Sart 25 men 1 Heroic Twilight Assist. They are 25th ! guild on heir realm (higher than ours) So they downed only 3Q for NAX and are ranked 6983 in EU. They do NOT have NAxX25 on farm...
So basically your saying the average guild on EU servers has 70%ish of the raiding content done?
And you're arguing that WoW isn't to easy.....
And you're still completely IGNORING all of our other arguments and keep spewing the same information over and over again without actually proving us wrong.
Everyone up here makes for very strange stats ... Let's do simple maths.... Take this example please: a normal PVE server and a "normal" guild in position 6983 in EU (17000 in the world). Take a normal EU PVE server and look: at a guild called Dragonsbane: So what did they do:www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/dragonblight/DragonsBane 3 quarters of 25 NAX 1 Sart 25 men 1 Heroic Twilight Assist. They are 25th ! guild on heir realm (higher than ours) So they downed only 3Q for NAX and are ranked 6983 in EU. They do NOT have NAxX25 on farm...
So basically your saying the average guild on that server has 70%ish of the raiding content done?
And you're arguing that WoW isn't to easy.....
And you're still completely IGNORING all of our other arguments and keep spewing the same information over and over again without actually proving us wrong.
I clearly proved that 85% of the players are not even up this guild who themselves haven't even finished NAX25. They are struggling like the vast majority of those other guilds on that server (some150 active raiding guilds per server).
That means that more than 2.100.000 EU players aren't ready yet for the next content patch within ... a month.
That's indeed exactly what I say.
And that's exactly what Blizzard sees on their server stats.
I wouldn't develop for those 100K elitists either.
So 17000 minus 6983 = 10017 out of 17000 is 85%? How exactly did you "clearly" prove that?
And the thing is, just because you haven't killed Sarth3D or Kel Thuzad yet, doesn't disprove that the VAST MAJORITY OF ALL ACTIVE RAIDING GUILDS have completed more then 50% of all the raiding content 3 months into the release.
And you are STILL ignoring the fact that not every guild listed is even ACTIVE. Nor do you take into account the low level guilds and the PvP guilds.
But you know what, i'm done arguing with you close minded fanboys.
My argument was and always has been that the game is now, compared to pre-BC, a CASUAL players game. And wether or not that was a business decision made on Blizzards part or not, it doesn't change the fact.
The games direction has gone from being hard to being easy in comparison of pre-BC and now.
Just because people haven't cleared content doesn't mean its hard or challenging.
I don't care if the content is easy or hard, just as long as it is fun and entertaining, not time wasting and frustrating. You hardcores need to get a freaking life, bunch of losers.
Still, they could have put in a few RAIDs for the no-lifers, they are paying customers too and it wouldn' t really affect your gameplay, would it?
Fun is important but HC players are a part of the community so at least some really hard content need to be implmented in a MMO. Blizz should really patch that in fast or they will all leave.
No I am not a hardcore gamer but they need their MMO fix as well as the rest of us.
The problem is that they end up giving the best rewards to raiders, making us casuals feel not only like second class citiizens, but also irritated that the majority of the game's income, which comes from casuals, is being used for elitist content. There aren't enough raiders in a game to justify all of the content and rewards that are made just for them. Add to insult that Blizzard doesn't think the casual play style is deserving of epic rewards. Hell, those very same raiders already cry wolf that PvPers get "welfare epics" for their play style. I say screw them all.
P.S. Less than 20% of the entire WoW player base raids at all. The rest of the 80% of the population is stuck with a bunch of e-peen retards running around flashing their uber gear.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Everyone up here makes for very strange stats ... Let's do simple maths.... Take this example please: a normal PVE server and a "normal" guild in position 6983 in EU (17000 in the world). Take a normal EU PVE server and look: at a guild called Dragonsbane: So what did they do:www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/dragonblight/DragonsBane 3 quarters of 25 NAX 1 Sart 25 men 1 Heroic Twilight Assist. They are 25th ! guild on heir realm (higher than ours) So they downed only 3Q for NAX and are ranked 6983 in EU. They do NOT have NAxX25 on farm...
So basically your saying the average guild on that server has 70%ish of the raiding content done?
And you're arguing that WoW isn't to easy.....
And you're still completely IGNORING all of our other arguments and keep spewing the same information over and over again without actually proving us wrong.
I clearly proved that 85% of the players are not even up this guild who themselves haven't even finished NAX25. They are struggling like the vast majority of those other guilds on that server (some150 active raiding guilds per server).
That means that more than 2.100.000 EU players aren't ready yet for the next content patch within ... a month.
That's indeed exactly what I say.
And that's exactly what Blizzard sees on their server stats.
I wouldn't develop for those 100K elitists either.
Just because people haven't cleared content doesn't mean its hard or challenging.
Then what does it mean?!?!?!?
Guild leader: "Hey guys, let's go into Naxx 25 man tonight and stand there and not clear it. Let's just act like we are doing it."
If guilds are TRYING to clear (these are ranked guilds attempting the content) the content and they are not succeeding, then by definition they are failing at it. Now why would they be failing? Now mind you we are talking raiding guilds, not casual guilds. Maybe they are failing at the content because it is difficult?
And to counter your argument: just because you say it is easy, doesn't make it easy. We have the data to back up our arguments....and I will take data any day over someone's opinions.
But THATS JUST IT!
Guilds that are TRYING to clear these HAVE CLEARED it.
According to wowprogress.com (that's the site you're using correct?) 35% of all registered guilds have downed Heroic Kel Thuzad.
However, out of the remaining 65% : 44% of them HAVEN'T EVEN ATTEMPTED 25man Naxx. That means only 11% of guilds who have attempted 25Naxx haven't cleared it yet. So doing some math, we can assume that 46% of guilds have attempted 25Man Naxx, out of that 46% 35% of it have cleared.
That means 79% of all guilds that have attempted Naxx25 have cleared it already.
So there are your precious statistics backing up my arguments. Guilds that are TRYING are having a very EASY time of clearing it.
P.S. To me, if you haven't attempted 25man Naxx yet, you are NOT in a raiding guild.
I don't care if the content is easy or hard, just as long as it is fun and entertaining, not time wasting and frustrating. You hardcores need to get a freaking life, bunch of losers.
Still, they could have put in a few RAIDs for the no-lifers, they are paying customers too and it wouldn' t really affect your gameplay, would it?
Fun is important but HC players are a part of the community so at least some really hard content need to be implmented in a MMO. Blizz should really patch that in fast or they will all leave.
No I am not a hardcore gamer but they need their MMO fix as well as the rest of us.
The problem is that they end up giving the best rewards to raiders, making us casuals feel not only like second class citiizens, but also irritated that the majority of the game's income, which comes from casuals, is being used for elitist content. There aren't enough raiders in a game to justify all of the content and rewards that are made just for them. Add to insult that Blizzard doesn't think the casual play style is deserving of epic rewards. Hell, those very same raiders already cry wolf that PvPers get "welfare epics" for their play style. I say screw them all.
P.S. Less than 20% of the entire WoW player base raids at all. The rest of the 80% of the population is stuck with a bunch of e-peen retards running around flashing their uber gear.
Ok at least the PvPers are Working for something. The Raiders are Working for somehing. Let me get this right, you want the same rewards for the same monthly subscription for 1/3rd the effort and work? Casual is not a playstyle, your acting like it's some martial art, Casual is just laziness.
So boo hoo, the content is so easy now, if you can't win now you never will. Also referring to Casuals a second class citizen is accurate, not an insult, accurate. Every game has a pecking order, just because your unhappy your place is at the bottom you want to ruin everyone elses game to comform to a watered down version of their game. Because your unhappy.
Every player strives to be better, I would hope, so by taking that away and putting everyone on the EZ mode welfare system so comform to weak players you peev off the upper level players. This mythical Casual player base, which by the way I still contend most of the complaining done here is far too soft to be casual, merely the the other 20+ percent who are, alot like Rainbow Bear.
I don't think that anybody can dispute that the entry level raid dungeons are easier than the previous expansions and original game. As far as I'm concerned this is a deliberate design. One that will allow more people to be exposed to raiding. As I said before, Nax & Co are the training grounds of the new generation of raiders. The ones that will hopefully replenish the stagnating army of old timers who have beaten every single encounter and now come to these boards to whine about easy content.
If you put your bloated e-game ego aside for a second and look at the bigger picture, you'll realise that the raiders have been bleeding population for quite a while now. The top end guilds were even relying to cross server transfers for new recruits, since the barriers to raiding were too high and people didn't bother to do a fresh start. Now that the entry barriers are lowered to an acceptable level again, we'll see more people trying raiding and hopefully some of them will stick around.
As long as the second tier of dungeons up the challenge, the current dungeons are perfect for what they are meant to do. And they are meant to be an introduction into raiding for people who had never stepped into a raiding instance.
Well in BC you could get entry level from welfare epics, but since many didn't want to participate in that part of the game. Refusing to take the easy out given to them because they don't like pvp. This was a slog but not a terribly hard way in, it was doable by the average player who didn't have a large raiding guild.
This was simply refusal to do the work plain and simple, now it's easier than before. Less gear requirements and less time/work and still the bottom feeders complain it's too hard.
I'll be honest, the over bursty catering to EZ mode raiding is a direct attack against pvp balance. It's an outright attack on core pvp and Raiding groups, sure it's easy for beginners... the rest of the game is imbalanced now, . ...... so it's not just the EZ raiding its the piss poor design in general.
There is always a group of WoW fanatics who cry "YAY" whenever something gets easier but completely ignore the fact the rest of the game got broken in the meantime.
If you guys didn't notice beating the current game is getting all the Achivements in the Raids and Heroics. How many poeple have Red,Black,Plague, Proto Drakes. The challage is there. Instead of trying to clear naxx for loot try it for the achivements.
Let me be the 1st to say that Immortal achivement is kinda tough to get. My guild losess it to one persons mistake and its over for the week. Three drakes was hard but we got it down now. 6 min Malaygos still working on it.
All MMO's have grinds. If you don't like to Grind then MMO's are not for you.
Comments
Apparently it does. The argument is that since they (non-hardcores) pay $15 per month that entitles them to see all content regardless of how much, or little, effort they put in.
Admittedly there is a logic to their thinking. "Why is someone getting to do more than me without having to pay extra?" It is then pointed out that these people who see more content put in more time and effort. The common reply to this is "I dont have enough time to put that much effort in".
A lot of us thought that Blizzard had solved the problem with heroic and non-heroic version of raids (10/25 man). A lot of thought that the 10 man was going to be the easy "casual" version and the 25 man version the "hardcore" version.
Why Blizzard didn't follow that I dont know.
So would you like a cookie? Seriously, congrats to you and your mates but there are thousands of players who are still doing Naxx and other content and enjoying it. What I would like to know is how much time you put in.
Going by what you said, you leveled to 80, farmed the appropriate factions, did all heroics and raids in 2 weeks. That is not casual and that brings us back to the beginnings on the argument.
And thanks for all of the insults and name calling of WOW players. This really shows your elitist attitude towards the game and the community and to be honest, if you feel such a way - move along. WOW, its community and the game are obviously not for you and I recommend checking out Darkfall, Mortal Online or something you are more suited to play.
A cookie? No thanks, just replying to the guy that asked what made WoW so easy .
You can keep the cookie, I played WoW for a few weeks after the latest expansion came out, I've had enough things handed to me for free
If you've experienced a server in which the vast majority of players didn't default to insulting, rude and childish behavior, you may want to leave the name of that server here as some people may be interested in trying it out, I know many have left because of the community. I've played on US & EU servers and would really be impressed if there was some magical pocket of people tucked away on some mystical WoW server in which they could actually hold conversation with eachother and function as a "community".
If you're not one of them then there's no need to be offended. But for everyones sake, don't defend them.
If wanting to be challenged and not handed some of the best items in game for little to no effort, and actually wanting to spend online time with fairly decent and nice people makes me elitist, then sign me up.
Fair enough, some of us have been playing MMOs for years before WoW even existed, and as WoW is just a simplified, dumbed down emulator of previous games (although it is very polished), many of the mechanics are all too familiar. This in fact would make it a lot easier for us than those who can't seem to wrap their heads around certain gameplay elements.
So I'll rephrase it, in comparison to the games WoW emulates, you can succeed with a lot less finesse, precision and coordination in WoW.
As much as I dislike railing on WoW, I have to agree here. Every time a major content patch comes out, my wife and I end up resubbing and play through, only to be chased away by the inability to complete content simply through the pathetic efforts of whatever half-wit guild we end up in. The "serious" guilds are even worse, and usually reward people based on how much mouthing off they do, rather than their actual contribution to the groups.
One particular example that jumps to mind involved a gnome rogue in the guild who was well known for Cold-Blood Ambushing small critters in the big raid dungeons, and using the extra damage boosts to pad his DPS meters so he could pat himself on the back at the end of the night.
The sad part was that he could still barely keep up with the rest of us, and yet got the most loot out of anyone in the group.
Agreed for Horde-Deathwing US
3 really cool things to do..
1. link items/events to anal
2. if anybody asks for info in game, call them nub.
3. join a 60-69 bg as a 60
Apparently it does. The argument is that since they (non-hardcores) pay $15 per month that entitles them to see all content regardless of how much, or little, effort they put in.
Admittedly there is a logic to their thinking. "Why is someone getting to do more than me without having to pay extra?" It is then pointed out that these people who see more content put in more time and effort. The common reply to this is "I dont have enough time to put that much effort in".
A lot of us thought that Blizzard had solved the problem with heroic and non-heroic version of raids (10/25 man). A lot of thought that the 10 man was going to be the easy "casual" version and the 25 man version the "hardcore" version.
Why Blizzard didn't follow that I dont know.
Why not just pay extra a month, that way you would not even have to play the game anymore? If you want to base WoW on some sort of cash cow system. Then what you need is an Asian Item shop.
So whats the argument that because we pay the same you should always get what the guy who works harder than you gets? Some sort of WoW socialism. They do more than you because they are in a better guild, they play better than you do, also possibly way smarter.
I think they should have put in the old Wimpy system from muds back in the day, that way bad players/guilds could study or look at a mob before attacking it and get warnings before hand. Like " monster will kill you" " monster laughs at your armor" or " monster will spit fire on your roasted corpse" that kind of thing. I think that would have helped. Instead we have an army of bad players wanting the same thing for nothing. Now we have WOTLK.
If I wrote TL;DR I would be lying. I read the whole damn thing hoping that the post would redeem itself at the end. It didn't. Unfortunately.
Why should I accuse Mwaji of living in his mom's basement when I do not know that for sure? Maybe he does. Maybe he doesn't. But I don't care one bit and I can't see what good it would do. Nor am I going to tell him to get a life. That would be calling pot kettle.
I prefer not to run due to my arthritis and suggesting Ritalin... eh... ever heard of such a thing as potentially fatal drug interactions? Oh, and if you mean the official WoW General Discussion forum. Can't. My sub expired 2 days ago
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
"What makes Wotlk so easy?"
Well, the answer is simple: The people saying that WotLK is easy are probably die-hards who have been playing since pre-BC. And WoW's "difficulty" can be measured by how hard it is to attain gear.
Correct me now if you think i'm wrong, but isn't the BIGGEST purpose of WoW on an individual basis to get that next piece of awesome gear? Aside from having fun while doing it, of course.
Now, pre-BC if you were in a raiding guild you knew the kind of dedication and slow process to gearing up that was required of you.
The thing is, not everyone was like that.
Blizzard has taken their game in a direction to make it more enjoyable for casual players.
BC was a good start: Heroics, 10man Raids and 25mans for the best content as opposed to 40mans.
Imo, the balancing should have stoped there, because even with making it easier for casuals to raid, it still made it relatively challenging for hardcore players (IE: 5+hours a day).
However, now they've taken it a step further and have made it so ALL content, can be done with a group of 10 (yes, you will even be able to kill Arthas, with 10 people).
Wether someone wants to argue with me or not, WoW's difficulty factor since its released has been based on one thing: The ability to gather a large group of poeple (40 of them, pre-BC) and get them to do their jobs and follow instructions precisely with little to no errors which in turn determines how hard it is to attain gear, adding in things like low drop rates, lock out periods and... -shudders- DKP...
Organizing 40 people and getting them to do what they're supposed to do when they're supposed to do it was a tough job.
However, the difficulty has been lowered by 75% since pre-BC if you follow my train of thought.
You can see everything there is to see, with 10 people.
Granted, you will need 25 if you want "the best" gear, however with 10 people you will be hard pressed to get a situation like "It was to hard to organize a raid for BWL so I never saw the inside of it, Ever."
Also, along the same lines: Gearing up for Raiding content has been made that much easier aswell.
You can get a -FULL- set of very decent epics through Heroics and Crafting now. Pre BC one could only DREAM of having a full set of epics if they were not in a large raiding guild.
This, is why people are saying WotLK has become to easy. Atleast... thats the way I see it.
Btw, This intire discussion was based more so around PvE . If you want to add in PvP, one word: Arenas.
Oh wait... Another three words: Rediculously Imbalanced Classes
I started playing WotLK when it came out and was cleared with Heroic Naxx, Maly and Sarth3D 2-3 months or so later.
I admit I do play alot, about 30hours a week. But now I have nothing left to do unless I want to roll a new character, repeat content I have already done atleast 5-10times, or play in rediculously imbalanced PvP.
If WotLK were a rerelease of WoW Vanilla, Assuming no one knew the content, I'd be halfway through MC with my guild if I was lucky.
/thread
Ok.... You must be confused.
First of all ,the discussion of this thread is why is WotLK so EASY.
Your argument of "Oh only 15% of all guilds have Naxx on farm" means fuck all. The fact is that raiding guilds DO have them on farm status so quickly.
On top of that, why don't you do some research as to how many of those guilds are actually RAIDING?
I bet you my left testicle at least 20% of those guilds are lowbie guilds and at least another 20% are filled with people who play that often. And then there are the PvP centric guilds, twink guilds included. Oh and what about the guilds that no longer have active players... they're still there you know.
Statistics don't mean shit when you haven't filtered them properly. 15% of ALL guilds in the game is infact a LARGE number when you look at the potential facts eh?
Secondly - The main argument was about PvE not PvP... *sigh* I have no idea why you are so stubborn and blind to argue that Arenas account for amazing balancing tools.
For example: 2v2, Two Equally geared and equally skilled Ret Paladins vs. equally geared and equally skilled Arms Warriors. You ask ANYONE, who would win, guaranteed they will tell you the Paladins will win.
Furthermore - You face up a Ret Pally or DK and/or Rogue duo, vs. oooh lets say.. An Ele shaman and a Shadowpriest. Who's gonna win? Oh ummm the Pally/DK/Rogue combo, of course.
How can you sit there and tell me the classes are balanced when there are some that can't even compete?
Especially with the way resillience is.
No sir, classes are not balanced. And PvP in general on WoW 50% of its deciding factor is your gear anyways. You give a player with 2k rating in the arena and match him up with a character in all blues vs. a character in all epics and you've DRASTICALLY reduced his chance to win.
The fact is: Just because there are a "few" high rating teams with all classes, doesn't mean they're balanced.
Balanced means, when a player of equal gear and equal skill go against each other they have a fair chance to beat each other.
In WoW: A Ret Pally, DK, Rogue have WAY more utility then any other DPS class atm in PvP (I dunno, they changed Locks since I quit so maybe they're back in business). Leaving out a ton fo other DPS classes that cannot compete in PvP and are forced to give up or switch to Support specs.
Stop trying to base your arguments on rediculously out of context statistics.
However, with all that being said WoW's PvP is not horrible, its not amazing, but not horrible. But honestly, if your a hardcore PvP'r you don't want to play the carebear bullcrap that it is. No risk, all reward.
You just could have cut and pasted any normal fanboi post from a previous topic and used that, that's the same tired half truths and lies about pvp and pve. PvP is obviously not balanced and not OK, pve is obviously a cake walk, the only hurdle there is mental capacity.
Not sure where the data comes from, about assuming its valid, then that is my point about the "easiness of WOW."
60% of players haven't downed Malygos.
88% haven't downed Heroic Malygos.
65% haven't cleared Naxx.
65% haven't cleared heroic Naxx.
And as you guess, even less have done the 3 drake thing.
Sorry but none of that is even close to a majority of the players (10 percentage points is not statistically close). When the numbers drop well below 50% then we have an argument. But again assuming those numbers are valid (I would like to see the source), the WOW being easy for the majority of players is an invalid argument.
Lulz @ your math.
And secondly, your assuming every single player on WoW plays to raid or for that matter CAN raid, which is widely absurd. Take into account the those percentages contain people who arn't level 80 yet and people who don't WANT to raid (IE: PvPers).
Not sure where the data comes from, about assuming its valid, then that is my point about the "easiness of WOW."
60% of players haven't downed Malygos.
88% haven't downed Heroic Malygos.
65% haven't cleared Naxx.
65% haven't cleared heroic Naxx.
And as you guess, even less have done the 3 drake thing.
Sorry but none of that is even close to a majority of the players (10 percentage points is not statistically close). When the numbers drop well below 50% then we have an argument. But again assuming those numbers are valid (I would like to see the source), the WOW being easy for the majority of players is an invalid argument.
Lulz @ your math.
And secondly, your assuming every single player on WoW plays to raid or for that matter CAN raid, which is widely absurd. Take into account the those percentages contain people who arn't level 80 yet and people who don't WANT to raid (IE: PvPers).
Um my math is fine statistically.
You are right about not everyone being able to raid. However, without more information on the data itself, I assumed it was based off of those who are ABLE to raid - therefore level 80 only.
But it doesn't matter at all because the argument is valid. Trolls want to argue that EVERYONE (their word) finds WOW too easy, EVERYONE has cleared Naxx, EVERYONE is bored with the game....so I am basing my argument on that same EVERYONE.
And thank you for proving and pointing out another hole in their argument - not everyone raids and not everyone wants too.
But to get in any more depth of a discussion about the data we would need to know where i comes from and how statistically significant it is. Otherwise we are just guessing.
22% of guilds have downed Heroic Malygos.
88% haven't downed Heroic Malygos.
Yes, I was laughing at your math.
And Trolls are Trolls and should never be taken seriously anyways. However, when I speak i'm talking for the Hardcore gamers. The people who actually cleared Naxx before WotLK.
You're right, not everyone has cleared Naxx. However the VAST MAJORITY of guilds who actually have their shit together have cleared the majority of raiding content. And not simply because they have their shit together, but because the content is old and stale and stagnant and easy as fuck.
My argument is, and always has been, WoW has become a casual players game and not a hardcore players game. If your argument is for EVERYONE, then yes, maybe the game is not to easy. But my argument is for the people who play everyday and have a guild that know what the hell they are doing.
Maybe when Ulduar comes out I'll reopen my account for a month and help my guild clear it and close it again until the next content patch. But as it stands, I have nothing to do (we even have a ton of achievements, but we never "aimed for them" but they're mostly boring gimmicks anyways).
So basically your saying the average guild on EU servers has 70%ish of the raiding content done?
And you're arguing that WoW isn't to easy.....
And you're still completely IGNORING all of our other arguments and keep spewing the same information over and over again without actually proving us wrong.
So basically your saying the average guild on that server has 70%ish of the raiding content done?
And you're arguing that WoW isn't to easy.....
And you're still completely IGNORING all of our other arguments and keep spewing the same information over and over again without actually proving us wrong.
I clearly proved that 85% of the players are not even up this guild who themselves haven't even finished NAX25. They are struggling like the vast majority of those other guilds on that server (some150 active raiding guilds per server).
That means that more than 2.100.000 EU players aren't ready yet for the next content patch within ... a month.
That's indeed exactly what I say.
And that's exactly what Blizzard sees on their server stats.
I wouldn't develop for those 100K elitists either.
So 17000 minus 6983 = 10017 out of 17000 is 85%? How exactly did you "clearly" prove that?
And the thing is, just because you haven't killed Sarth3D or Kel Thuzad yet, doesn't disprove that the VAST MAJORITY OF ALL ACTIVE RAIDING GUILDS have completed more then 50% of all the raiding content 3 months into the release.
And you are STILL ignoring the fact that not every guild listed is even ACTIVE. Nor do you take into account the low level guilds and the PvP guilds.
But you know what, i'm done arguing with you close minded fanboys.
My argument was and always has been that the game is now, compared to pre-BC, a CASUAL players game. And wether or not that was a business decision made on Blizzards part or not, it doesn't change the fact.
The games direction has gone from being hard to being easy in comparison of pre-BC and now.
Just because people haven't cleared content doesn't mean its hard or challenging.
Still, they could have put in a few RAIDs for the no-lifers, they are paying customers too and it wouldn' t really affect your gameplay, would it?
Fun is important but HC players are a part of the community so at least some really hard content need to be implmented in a MMO. Blizz should really patch that in fast or they will all leave.
No I am not a hardcore gamer but they need their MMO fix as well as the rest of us.
The problem is that they end up giving the best rewards to raiders, making us casuals feel not only like second class citiizens, but also irritated that the majority of the game's income, which comes from casuals, is being used for elitist content. There aren't enough raiders in a game to justify all of the content and rewards that are made just for them. Add to insult that Blizzard doesn't think the casual play style is deserving of epic rewards. Hell, those very same raiders already cry wolf that PvPers get "welfare epics" for their play style. I say screw them all.
P.S. Less than 20% of the entire WoW player base raids at all. The rest of the 80% of the population is stuck with a bunch of e-peen retards running around flashing their uber gear.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
So basically your saying the average guild on that server has 70%ish of the raiding content done?
And you're arguing that WoW isn't to easy.....
And you're still completely IGNORING all of our other arguments and keep spewing the same information over and over again without actually proving us wrong.
I clearly proved that 85% of the players are not even up this guild who themselves haven't even finished NAX25. They are struggling like the vast majority of those other guilds on that server (some150 active raiding guilds per server).
That means that more than 2.100.000 EU players aren't ready yet for the next content patch within ... a month.
That's indeed exactly what I say.
And that's exactly what Blizzard sees on their server stats.
I wouldn't develop for those 100K elitists either.
Just because people haven't cleared content doesn't mean its hard or challenging.
Then what does it mean?!?!?!?
Guild leader: "Hey guys, let's go into Naxx 25 man tonight and stand there and not clear it. Let's just act like we are doing it."
If guilds are TRYING to clear (these are ranked guilds attempting the content) the content and they are not succeeding, then by definition they are failing at it. Now why would they be failing? Now mind you we are talking raiding guilds, not casual guilds. Maybe they are failing at the content because it is difficult?
And to counter your argument: just because you say it is easy, doesn't make it easy. We have the data to back up our arguments....and I will take data any day over someone's opinions.
But THATS JUST IT!
Guilds that are TRYING to clear these HAVE CLEARED it.
According to wowprogress.com (that's the site you're using correct?) 35% of all registered guilds have downed Heroic Kel Thuzad.
However, out of the remaining 65% : 44% of them HAVEN'T EVEN ATTEMPTED 25man Naxx. That means only 11% of guilds who have attempted 25Naxx haven't cleared it yet. So doing some math, we can assume that 46% of guilds have attempted 25Man Naxx, out of that 46% 35% of it have cleared.
That means 79% of all guilds that have attempted Naxx25 have cleared it already.
So there are your precious statistics backing up my arguments. Guilds that are TRYING are having a very EASY time of clearing it.
P.S. To me, if you haven't attempted 25man Naxx yet, you are NOT in a raiding guild.
Still, they could have put in a few RAIDs for the no-lifers, they are paying customers too and it wouldn' t really affect your gameplay, would it?
Fun is important but HC players are a part of the community so at least some really hard content need to be implmented in a MMO. Blizz should really patch that in fast or they will all leave.
No I am not a hardcore gamer but they need their MMO fix as well as the rest of us.
The problem is that they end up giving the best rewards to raiders, making us casuals feel not only like second class citiizens, but also irritated that the majority of the game's income, which comes from casuals, is being used for elitist content. There aren't enough raiders in a game to justify all of the content and rewards that are made just for them. Add to insult that Blizzard doesn't think the casual play style is deserving of epic rewards. Hell, those very same raiders already cry wolf that PvPers get "welfare epics" for their play style. I say screw them all.
P.S. Less than 20% of the entire WoW player base raids at all. The rest of the 80% of the population is stuck with a bunch of e-peen retards running around flashing their uber gear.
Ok at least the PvPers are Working for something. The Raiders are Working for somehing. Let me get this right, you want the same rewards for the same monthly subscription for 1/3rd the effort and work? Casual is not a playstyle, your acting like it's some martial art, Casual is just laziness.
So boo hoo, the content is so easy now, if you can't win now you never will. Also referring to Casuals a second class citizen is accurate, not an insult, accurate. Every game has a pecking order, just because your unhappy your place is at the bottom you want to ruin everyone elses game to comform to a watered down version of their game. Because your unhappy.
Every player strives to be better, I would hope, so by taking that away and putting everyone on the EZ mode welfare system so comform to weak players you peev off the upper level players. This mythical Casual player base, which by the way I still contend most of the complaining done here is far too soft to be casual, merely the the other 20+ percent who are, alot like Rainbow Bear.
Don't insult casuals by boating them up with you.
I don't think that anybody can dispute that the entry level raid dungeons are easier than the previous expansions and original game. As far as I'm concerned this is a deliberate design. One that will allow more people to be exposed to raiding. As I said before, Nax & Co are the training grounds of the new generation of raiders. The ones that will hopefully replenish the stagnating army of old timers who have beaten every single encounter and now come to these boards to whine about easy content.
If you put your bloated e-game ego aside for a second and look at the bigger picture, you'll realise that the raiders have been bleeding population for quite a while now. The top end guilds were even relying to cross server transfers for new recruits, since the barriers to raiding were too high and people didn't bother to do a fresh start. Now that the entry barriers are lowered to an acceptable level again, we'll see more people trying raiding and hopefully some of them will stick around.
As long as the second tier of dungeons up the challenge, the current dungeons are perfect for what they are meant to do. And they are meant to be an introduction into raiding for people who had never stepped into a raiding instance.
Well in BC you could get entry level from welfare epics, but since many didn't want to participate in that part of the game. Refusing to take the easy out given to them because they don't like pvp. This was a slog but not a terribly hard way in, it was doable by the average player who didn't have a large raiding guild.
This was simply refusal to do the work plain and simple, now it's easier than before. Less gear requirements and less time/work and still the bottom feeders complain it's too hard.
I'll be honest, the over bursty catering to EZ mode raiding is a direct attack against pvp balance. It's an outright attack on core pvp and Raiding groups, sure it's easy for beginners... the rest of the game is imbalanced now, . ...... so it's not just the EZ raiding its the piss poor design in general.
There is always a group of WoW fanatics who cry "YAY" whenever something gets easier but completely ignore the fact the rest of the game got broken in the meantime.
If you guys didn't notice beating the current game is getting all the Achivements in the Raids and Heroics. How many poeple have Red,Black,Plague, Proto Drakes. The challage is there. Instead of trying to clear naxx for loot try it for the achivements.
Let me be the 1st to say that Immortal achivement is kinda tough to get. My guild losess it to one persons mistake and its over for the week. Three drakes was hard but we got it down now. 6 min Malaygos still working on it.
All MMO's have grinds. If you don't like to Grind then MMO's are not for you.