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what makes Wotlk so easy?

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  • MwajiMwaji Member Posts: 229
    Originally posted by templarga



    You can criticize me for asking for a game to conform to my playstyle but your criticism and rampant hate of WOW proves the same thing: you are angry because it doesn't conform to your playstyle. This is the point I keep trying to get too: MOVE ON because WOW is not the game for you. I do not go to the EVE forums and tell the people there that Eve sucks because its too hard. Or go to the Darkfall forums and criticize the game because its too hardcore. Those games are designed for the players that play them; and unlike you, I can accept that. You, however, believe WOW is horrible, all the players are ignorant or stupid because they play it and anyone who disagrees with you is a moron.

    That is exactly the attitude I'm talking about, wow was fine for awhile and has slowly degressed. Now that it has players who have gotten used to EZ mode have the typical response of "nothing to see here" or " This is our game now" mentality which is insulting to the players who were on it years before they were. Back when if you had an epic item it meant something, you didn't just timmy powergame through a dungeon in a few minutes. So don't tell me the game isn't for me, it obviously was pre BC and tolerable during BC and now I consider WOTLK EZ walk in the park mode.

    We have a differnace of opinion for sure, you belive the game was never for upper level players, when they were the initial  population of wow in the first place. I believe the game is BroKeN in favor of the weak.

    Not every wow player is a moron but  a large chunk is, such a huge chunk the devs now ignore the better players and cater it foolishness, which is usually the beginning of the end for mmos. I mentioned UO so you may not know I've had a similar situation with this type of mentality. See it started out great, pvp was open, crafting was good and it was competitive and reasonably balanced, considering it was skill based. THEN doomsday happened, what I would call a 40% chunk of players forum wined and moaned, did loud moaning tells ingame. No one really listened to them until Evocare became head dev, you know him as Kalgan. So long story short non pvp zones came, pvpers left, Trammy was born and the boredom set in, no one to kill, EZ mode and no competition, went from hardcore to Carebear in a few months. So yes I really do hate carebears and Kalgan..... alot, try not to hold it against me.

    Thanks for ruining another, what was, a great game.

  • Lazarus71Lazarus71 Member UncommonPosts: 1,081
    Originally posted by Mwaji

    Originally posted by templarga



    You can criticize me for asking for a game to conform to my playstyle but your criticism and rampant hate of WOW proves the same thing: you are angry because it doesn't conform to your playstyle. This is the point I keep trying to get too: MOVE ON because WOW is not the game for you. I do not go to the EVE forums and tell the people there that Eve sucks because its too hard. Or go to the Darkfall forums and criticize the game because its too hardcore. Those games are designed for the players that play them; and unlike you, I can accept that. You, however, believe WOW is horrible, all the players are ignorant or stupid because they play it and anyone who disagrees with you is a moron.

    That is exactly the attitude I'm talking about, wow was fine for awhile and has slowly degressed. Now that it has players who have gotten used to EZ mode have the typical response of "nothing to see here" or " This is our game now" mentality which is insulting to the players who were on it years before they were. Back when if you had an epic item it meant something, you didn't just timmy powergame through a dungeon in a few minutes. So don't tell me the game isn't for me, it obviously was pre BC and tolerable during BC and now I consider WOTLK EZ walk in the park mode.

    We have a differnace of opinion for sure, you belive the game was never for upper level players, when they were the initial  population of wow in the first place. I believe the game is BroKeN in favor of the weak.

    Not every wow player is a moron but  a large chunk is, such a huge chunk the devs now ignore the better players and cater it foolishness, which is usually the beginning of the end for mmos. I mentioned UO so you may not know I've had a similar situation with this type of mentality. See it started out great, pvp was open, crafting was good and it was competitive and reasonably balanced, considering it was skill based. THEN doomsday happened, what I would call a 40% chunk of players forum wined and moaned, did loud moaning tells ingame. No one really listened to them until Evocare became head dev, you know him as Kalgan. So long story short non pvp zones came, pvpers left, Trammy was born and the boredom set in, no one to kill, EZ mode and no competition, went from hardcore to Carebear in a few months. So yes I really do hate carebears and Kalgan..... alot, try not to hold it against me.

    Thanks for ruining another, what was, a great game.



     

    I can't speak for Templarga but I beta tested WoW and have played since launch. I will be the first to admit the game has become more casual friendly and less challenging but the point I am trying to make is move on to another game as there are more challenging games out  there as you yourself have stated.

    No signature, I don't have a pen

  • Frostbite05Frostbite05 Member Posts: 1,880

    the only thing easy about lich is the endgame raids for elitist guilds the average guild will find them challenging and fun.

  • templargatemplarga Member UncommonPosts: 1,947
    Originally posted by Frostbite05


    the only thing easy about lich is the endgame raids for elitist guilds the average guild will find them challenging and fun.

    Exactly correct and that is the point I have been trying to make. I have posted this before but I will again to explain (a lot of the info below is a combination of debated fact, educated guesses and assumption but is my feelings on WOW's development):

    When WOW launched, it was designed to be a raiding game. Why? Because Blizzard is smart and decided that, when you create a new MMO, you go to the source. At the time of development, EQ was the source so Blizzard brought in, as "consultants", a lot of the raiding guilds in EQ and some of them even had developer status. So they create the game and the end game is raiding.

    This is why originally you had Scholo, Strath, UBRS and others that were all 40 person instances and from their everything was tiered (meaning you had to run them to get set drops [Tier0.5] then you could get to Molten Core to get Tier 1 and then that would allow you to fight Onyxia). It took a lot of time to do this stuff. Heck, the quest chains to get keyed for Onyxia or even the one to open UBRS sucked (but were awesome in terms of content). This was the end-game of WOW.

    As a GM of a huge raiding guild (that all came from EQ - I was made GM going into WOW), we were excited and kicked end-game ass for a long-time. We were one of the first guilds in Onyxia's lair and in MC. However, around this time *something* happened and I am not sure what it was. And I do not mean just for us, I mean for all guilds in WOW. WOW became another EQ. The difference was though, leveling in WOW has fun and almost the anti-thesis of EQ's leveling. Players had seen the light so to speak (meaning they now know a game can be a lot more fun without grinding). However, the end-game was the same ole raiding grind and it got old very, very fast....especially for a lot of the guilds that raided for years in EQ and then went on to other games (DAOC, SWG, etc...) where the end-game was anything but raiding. To understand this as well, look beyond WOW to realize that DAOC made this same "everyone wants raiding" assumption with the Trials of Atlantis expansion and we all know how that turned out! 

    So anyway, back to WOW. My guild began to dry up because people just could not raid anymore and these were people born to raid. People rolled alts and I remember the classic arguments about people playing their alts and refusing to log on their mains for a raid. It was horrible. Friendships fell apart and the guild had players not guild their characters because they didn't want the drama. I turned over leadership and went to a new server to play Horde simpy, because I could not take it anymore.

    At the same time, other guilds had similar issues and trying to get 40 people together sucked for guilds and it sucked worse if you did a PUG. Thing were not going so well for WOW. Add to this that many of your top raid guilds were growing bored. They had done everything they could do and were miles part from the 80% of the playerbase that was still doing the raids.

    So Blizzard starts kicking out new content....BWL and the original Naxx to appease the raider crowd....the hardcore, elitist raider crowd. BWL is one of the hardest dungeons in the game and personally it is between it and AQ40 as the hardest ever in WOW. The thing was, these raiders flew through the content. And it had nothing to do with how hard or easy it was, it was because these guilds lived to raid. It was all they did. At the same time, (I would almost guarantee you), that 85% of the growing playerbase, at this time, did not see BWL and probably 90% didn't see Naxx. Blizzard went too hard for the casual player and it was STILL too easy for the hardcore player.

    So WOW continues to have issues defining itself. And, at this time, I think Blizzard devs realized something: They could NEVER release content fast enough for that 20% of their players that were hardcore raiders. It is not possible. They spend 6 months designing a new dungeon only to have it cleared in a few weeks and then you have bored players again. So I can almost hear what I think is their thought process: Why are we driving ourselves crazy trying to please 20% of our playerbase (only to see them exhaust the new content in several weeks) and neglecting the 80% who never see these dungeons? Oh, and yeah, that 20% of hardcore raiders unsubscribe and leave the game while that 80% is continually subscribed?

    And out of that, casual WOW was born. Casual WOW is out of necessity and because it is what has grown the game to the population it is. Trust me, out of the 11 million or so players, not all are raiders or anywhere near being raiders. And, while the raiding population has grown over original WOW, it is because raids are more accesible and less time-consuming than they once were.

    So sure, we can complain WOW is too easy or it caters to casual players but, in the end, it is because casual players hang around and hardcore raiders will always move on to the next big thing. Always and that is a fact because they grow bored so quickly. Gaming to them isn't about the same thing it is to casuals; hardcore raiders are very competitive and want to do it first. Casual players really don't care and they just want to play the game they love.

    WOW is a great game in its own right. It is not perfect (far from it) but it has a loyal fanbase who enjoy playing MMO's. It allows you to play the game you want and do what you want. Just because I play WOW or others play WOW does not make us less of a player or weaker or a moron or anything of the sort. It is our choice to play just as it is someone's elses choice not to play.

    The thing I do not get is why everyone feels compelled to always tell WOW players that they are only second best and that non-players are better. We have accpeted the fact that you do not like the game and most likely the game isn't for you. I have accepted that half the games out there are not for me and I could care less. I do not insult their players and call them names and make them feel less of a gamer because they choose to play what they enjoy. Shouldn't the fact that we enjoy WOW be enough for you (meaning posters here who constantly bash WOW and its players with the same tired arguments)?

  • IcoGamesIcoGames Member Posts: 2,360
    Originally posted by Mwaji

    Originally posted by templarga



    You can criticize me for asking for a game to conform to my playstyle but your criticism and rampant hate of WOW proves the same thing: you are angry because it doesn't conform to your playstyle. This is the point I keep trying to get too: MOVE ON because WOW is not the game for you. I do not go to the EVE forums and tell the people there that Eve sucks because its too hard. Or go to the Darkfall forums and criticize the game because its too hardcore. Those games are designed for the players that play them; and unlike you, I can accept that. You, however, believe WOW is horrible, all the players are ignorant or stupid because they play it and anyone who disagrees with you is a moron.

    That is exactly the attitude I'm talking about, wow was fine for awhile and has slowly degressed. Now that it has players who have gotten used to EZ mode have the typical response of "nothing to see here" or " This is our game now" mentality which is insulting to the players who were on it years before they were. Back when if you had an epic item it meant something, you didn't just timmy powergame through a dungeon in a few minutes. So don't tell me the game isn't for me, it obviously was pre BC and tolerable during BC and now I consider WOTLK EZ walk in the park mode.

    We have a differnace of opinion for sure, you belive the game was never for upper level players, when they were the initial  population of wow in the first place. I believe the game is BroKeN in favor of the weak.

    Not every wow player is a moron but  a large chunk is, such a huge chunk the devs now ignore the better players and cater it foolishness, which is usually the beginning of the end for mmos. I mentioned UO so you may not know I've had a similar situation with this type of mentality. See it started out great, pvp was open, crafting was good and it was competitive and reasonably balanced, considering it was skill based. THEN doomsday happened, what I would call a 40% chunk of players forum wined and moaned, did loud moaning tells ingame. No one really listened to them until Evocare became head dev, you know him as Kalgan. So long story short non pvp zones came, pvpers left, Trammy was born and the boredom set in, no one to kill, EZ mode and no competition, went from hardcore to Carebear in a few months. So yes I really do hate carebears and Kalgan..... alot, try not to hold it against me.

    Thanks for ruining another, what was, a great game.

     

    Lol, the things I miss when traveling ...

    Cripes I love posts like these; are you seriously that wrapped-up in gaming you have to make such condescending generalizations?  And 'hate' ... really? 

    Btw, the general tone and substance of complaints haven't changed since WoW's launch.  The PvP has always been too 'carebearish', the endgame too easy, blah blah blah.  Chances are WoW was never the game for some players, and I'm continually amazed by people who haven't figured that out, yet will complain ad nauseum.

     

    Ico
    Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.

  • PyroAmosPyroAmos Member Posts: 24

    I wouldn't say they failed to keep hardcore raiders happy... NAXX was proably one of the hardest raids in any MMO, and very few guilds cleared it, although many were partially through it... proably my biggest regret in gaming, is not being able to do NAXX before BC came out (and if they put a legacy server in I might even start playing WOW again, just so I could)... its not that they failed at satisfying hardcore raiders, they just stopped trying. For good reason, mind you, WoW is a joke to most even soft-core gamers anymore, but, they have found the huge market of non-gamers that they were able to pull into WoW, which is why it is almost 5x the size of its closest competetor and they market/design the game to non-gamers.

    Check out my site - www.pyroamos.com

  • floppyfacefloppyface Member Posts: 97
    Originally posted by Qilin
    It has only been 2-3 months, what was people waiting for? Confront Lich King directly as you step on Northrend?

     

    Let me see, when Burning Crusade was released it had:

    15 dungeons with heroic mode

    Karazhan with an attunement quest line.

    Gruul's Lair.

    Magtheridon's Lair

    Serpertshrine Cavern with attunement quest line requiring to kill Nightbane and Gruul

    Tempest Keep with attunement questline including killing Magtheridon.

    Mount Hyjal. Required players to kill vashj and kael until 2.4

    Black Temple was supposed to be released with BC but came out in 2.1 in May 2007. Attunement same as hyjal

     

    Now players just hit 80 and go straight to 10 man naxx and sartharion.

    Not having attunement quest lines was stupid on Blizzard's behalf. But Blizzard caved in to the ADHD instant gratification Ritalin kiddies. The quest line to get into Karazhan was good. SSC was good too. TK required running a million quests in Shadowmoon Valley and the hardest heroics.

     

  • Lazarus71Lazarus71 Member UncommonPosts: 1,081
    Originally posted by PyroAmos


    I wouldn't say they failed to keep hardcore raiders happy... NAXX was proably one of the hardest raids in any MMO, and very few guilds cleared it, although many were partially through it... proably my biggest regret in gaming, is not being able to do NAXX before BC came out (and if they put a legacy server in I might even start playing WOW again, just so I could)... its not that they failed at satisfying hardcore raiders, they just stopped trying. For good reason, mind you, WoW is a joke to most even soft-core gamers anymore, but, they have found the huge market of non-gamers that they were able to pull into WoW, which is why it is almost 5x the size of its closest competetor and they market/design the game to non-gamers.



     

    Do you actually believe that because you state that as fact it is?

     

    No signature, I don't have a pen

  • floppyfacefloppyface Member Posts: 97
    Originally posted by Alandora


    If you did raiding in the past, you know how to do things 'best'.  If you never raided, the heroics and raids in wrath are NOT easy. 
    AOEing down trash -  Yes, if your tank has raid experience and your DPS has raid experience, they can pull this off.   But people who have never raided (especially tanks) will not be able to generate enough TPS to keep aggro.  Healers who aren't raiders will be healing the tank while the DPSers die.   Also the nerf to WG and COH will make AOEing trash much riskier.
    I've raided before, but when I pug, I can tell that the average wow player hasn't.  Heroics and 10Naxx are still difficult encounters for average players. 
     If you've been in a raid guild for years, and you do wrath content with only your guild, then yes, Nax/heroics are easy.  But guess what?  the average player didn't raid before wrath.  Even Kaz wasn't 'normal' endgame for most players.

     

    Yes. I was around pre-BC. The learning raid instances were UBRS then MC and later ZG. Thats where I learned to raid. This was further improved by doing Karazhan before it was nerfed to hell and gear buffed to godlike and Gruul/Mag.

    Why should the people who have supported and made WoW what is be punished by the instant gratification generation too fat, lazy crowd who are too stupid to work things out for themselves? If they want to learn how to raid go do MC like the rest of us did. Go to Kael and Vashj and Sunwell Plateau. WoW would be nothing without the hardcore players who joined up on Nov 24 2004. All the sheep (ie "casuals") saw how popular the game was and joined later on - including myself.

    If I turned up to a football game and complained the opposition players were more experienced, too fast, could kick, dribble, pass, head the ball better than me would anyone listen? No, you'd be told to shut up or go down and compete at a level that suited me until I improved.

    Its a bit like some idiot joining a golf club and paying a membership fee and complaining that it is unfair that a guy who has played longer and practicised harder has a much lower handicap. I PAY THE SAME FEE THEREFORE I SHOULD HAVE THE SAME HANDICAP. You'd be laughed at and treated like an idiot and rightly so.

    And thats the moral of the story. WotLK doesn't cater to casuals - it caters to braindead, lazy idiots. The type of person who when they fail at something complain and whine instead of having a bit of initiative and finding out where they went wrong and improving themselves.

  • VrazuleVrazule Member Posts: 1,095
    Originally posted by floppyface

    Originally posted by Alandora


    If you did raiding in the past, you know how to do things 'best'.  If you never raided, the heroics and raids in wrath are NOT easy. 
    AOEing down trash -  Yes, if your tank has raid experience and your DPS has raid experience, they can pull this off.   But people who have never raided (especially tanks) will not be able to generate enough TPS to keep aggro.  Healers who aren't raiders will be healing the tank while the DPSers die.   Also the nerf to WG and COH will make AOEing trash much riskier.
    I've raided before, but when I pug, I can tell that the average wow player hasn't.  Heroics and 10Naxx are still difficult encounters for average players. 
     If you've been in a raid guild for years, and you do wrath content with only your guild, then yes, Nax/heroics are easy.  But guess what?  the average player didn't raid before wrath.  Even Kaz wasn't 'normal' endgame for most players.

     

    Yes. I was around pre-BC. The learning raid instances were UBRS then MC and later ZG. Thats where I learned to raid. This was further improved by doing Karazhan before it was nerfed to hell and gear buffed to godlike and Gruul/Mag.

    Why should the people who have supported and made WoW what is be punished by the instant gratification generation too fat, lazy crowd who are too stupid to work things out for themselves? If they want to learn how to raid go do MC like the rest of us did. Go to Kael and Vashj and Sunwell Plateau. WoW would be nothing without the hardcore players who joined up on Nov 24 2004. All the sheep (ie "casuals") saw how popular the game was and joined later on - including myself.

    If I turned up to a football game and complained the opposition players were more experienced, too fast, could kick, dribble, pass, head the ball better than me would anyone listen? No, you'd be told to shut up or go down and compete at a level that suited me until I improved.

    Its a bit like some idiot joining a golf club and paying a membership fee and complaining that it is unfair that a guy who has played longer and practicised harder has a much lower handicap. I PAY THE SAME FEE THEREFORE I SHOULD HAVE THE SAME HANDICAP. You'd be laughed at and treated like an idiot and rightly so.

    And thats the moral of the story. WotLK doesn't cater to casuals - it caters to braindead, lazy idiots. The type of person who when they fail at something complain and whine instead of having a bit of initiative and finding out where they went wrong and improving themselves.



     

    You're so full of crap.  Casuals made and make the game.  There were virtually no raids in existence in the first 6 months of release.  Your influence on the genre is dying and dying quickly.  Enjoy Darkfall, it will likely be the last modern MMO to cater to hardcores.

    With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal

  • floppyfacefloppyface Member Posts: 97
    Originally posted by Lazarus71

    Originally posted by PyroAmos


    I wouldn't say they failed to keep hardcore raiders happy... NAXX was proably one of the hardest raids in any MMO, and very few guilds cleared it, although many were partially through it... proably my biggest regret in gaming, is not being able to do NAXX before BC came out (and if they put a legacy server in I might even start playing WOW again, just so I could)... its not that they failed at satisfying hardcore raiders, they just stopped trying. For good reason, mind you, WoW is a joke to most even soft-core gamers anymore, but, they have found the huge market of non-gamers that they were able to pull into WoW, which is why it is almost 5x the size of its closest competetor and they market/design the game to non-gamers.



     

    Do you actually believe that because you state that as fact it is?

     

     

    Or maybe the fact that him, myself and many others believe it. Go look at any gaming fourm that involves WoW and you'll see the same.

    The realm I used to play on has 26 guilds that have All 10/25 Naxx done. 10/25 Malygos and 10/25 Sartharion done. Most of them also have at least 1 drake sarth as well. 14 guilds also have 25 3 drake sarth done.

    That doesn't include people who have done that content in partial guild/pug raids.

    And thats barely 3 months into the "expansion"

     

  • floppyfacefloppyface Member Posts: 97
    Originally posted by Vrazule


     
    You're so full of crap.  Casuals made and make the game.  There were virtually no raids in existence in the first 6 months of release.  Your influence on the genre is dying and dying quickly.  Enjoy Darkfall, it will likely be the last modern MMO to cater to hardcores.

     

    You have no idea what you're talking about I can guarantee that you werent playing WoW in 2004 when it was released.

    Onyxia and Molten Core were available at release and so was UBRS. If we put aside the that you could zone into any instance with 40 people.

    Tell me, what casual would have even known about the public release of WoW in late Nov 2004? How many signed up? Very very few. Most of the people who started WoW in its first couple of weeks were players from the "hardcore" mmorpg's you hate so much and battle.net players. Who do you think the beta testers were?

    People are sheep. They will follow whatever the pack is following. If it wasn't for the hardcore players from other mmorp's flocking to WoW the "casuals" wouldnt even know WoW existed. WoW was well known throughout the mmorpg scene long before the mainstream picked up on it.

     

     

  • templargatemplarga Member UncommonPosts: 1,947
    Originally posted by floppyface

    Originally posted by Vrazule


     
    You're so full of crap.  Casuals made and make the game.  There were virtually no raids in existence in the first 6 months of release.  Your influence on the genre is dying and dying quickly.  Enjoy Darkfall, it will likely be the last modern MMO to cater to hardcores.

     

    You have no idea what you're talking about I can guarantee that you werent playing WoW in 2004 when it was released.

    Onyxia and Molten Core were available at release and so was UBRS. If we put aside the that you could zone into any instance with 40 people.

    Tell me, what casual would have even known about the public release of WoW in late Nov 2004? How many signed up? Very very few. Most of the people who started WoW in its first couple of weeks were players from the "hardcore" mmorpg's you hate so much and battle.net players. Who do you think the beta testers were?

    People are sheep. They will follow whatever the pack is following. If it wasn't for the hardcore players from other mmorp's flocking to WoW the "casuals" wouldnt even know WoW existed. WoW was well known throughout the mmorpg scene long before the mainstream picked up on it.

     

     

    You are right about release but (as I posted above) Blizzard realized that they could never release enough content to keep the hardcore players happy while, at the same time, keeps casuals around. And casuals have always outnumbered hardcore raiders except at release. Most people forget but WOW had population issues in the first 6 months of release or so due to burnout and the hardcore raiding aspect.

    The problem has always been that if Blizzard caters to the raiders, then the casuals do not have time to do the same content. its the same basic philosophy why they reduced raids from 40 to 20 and then 10 - it took way too much time to get 40 people together nightly for raids. This created a rift in the game's playerbase and then Blizzard made the decision to go the casual route because, unlike hardcore raiders, casuals stay subscribed and continue to play because they never exhaust the content.

  • MwajiMwaji Member Posts: 229
    Originally posted by Vrazule

    Originally posted by floppyface

    Originally posted by Alandora


    If you did raiding in the past, you know how to do things 'best'.  If you never raided, the heroics and raids in wrath are NOT easy. 
    AOEing down trash -  Yes, if your tank has raid experience and your DPS has raid experience, they can pull this off.   But people who have never raided (especially tanks) will not be able to generate enough TPS to keep aggro.  Healers who aren't raiders will be healing the tank while the DPSers die.   Also the nerf to WG and COH will make AOEing trash much riskier.
    I've raided before, but when I pug, I can tell that the average wow player hasn't.  Heroics and 10Naxx are still difficult encounters for average players. 
     If you've been in a raid guild for years, and you do wrath content with only your guild, then yes, Nax/heroics are easy.  But guess what?  the average player didn't raid before wrath.  Even Kaz wasn't 'normal' endgame for most players.

     

    Yes. I was around pre-BC. The learning raid instances were UBRS then MC and later ZG. Thats where I learned to raid. This was further improved by doing Karazhan before it was nerfed to hell and gear buffed to godlike and Gruul/Mag.

    Why should the people who have supported and made WoW what is be punished by the instant gratification generation too fat, lazy crowd who are too stupid to work things out for themselves? If they want to learn how to raid go do MC like the rest of us did. Go to Kael and Vashj and Sunwell Plateau. WoW would be nothing without the hardcore players who joined up on Nov 24 2004. All the sheep (ie "casuals") saw how popular the game was and joined later on - including myself.

    If I turned up to a football game and complained the opposition players were more experienced, too fast, could kick, dribble, pass, head the ball better than me would anyone listen? No, you'd be told to shut up or go down and compete at a level that suited me until I improved.

    Its a bit like some idiot joining a golf club and paying a membership fee and complaining that it is unfair that a guy who has played longer and practicised harder has a much lower handicap. I PAY THE SAME FEE THEREFORE I SHOULD HAVE THE SAME HANDICAP. You'd be laughed at and treated like an idiot and rightly so.

    And thats the moral of the story. WotLK doesn't cater to casuals - it caters to braindead, lazy idiots. The type of person who when they fail at something complain and whine instead of having a bit of initiative and finding out where they went wrong and improving themselves.



     

    You're so full of crap.  Casuals made and make the game.  There were virtually no raids in existence in the first 6 months of release.  Your influence on the genre is dying and dying quickly.  Enjoy Darkfall, it will likely be the last modern MMO to cater to hardcores.

     

    That my friends is the holy grail of Carebear. Now the word casual is thrown around but lets not mix words here. "Casuals" as you call them do not "made or make" any game. Casuals come along after the real player base builds up the game to bottom feed. "Casuals" come along in droves on any popular game that tickles their fickle wants, but they don't hang around till the end, and they certainly don't build the community from the ground up. No " Casuals" complain, they moan " The game is too hard" or " I am being picked on", "why do raids take so long?"or the best one " leveling takes too long".

    Self proclaimed casuals should be called what we know they really are though, Carebears. So lets debunk some myths. First one, what is hard to a Carebear ... ahem " casual" is not hard for the average to better player. So saying it is hard for you when it's clearly not at all, is meaningless. It's hard for you, because you are bad, want hand outs, you wine you moan and when the game is broken to your satisfaction you Gloat. Whether its the downfall of UO, the ripping apart of Galaxies or any other horror story, you can bet an army of Carebears were there to defend the game till the bitter end. This is their game now, the rest of you just need to leave.

    Now lets take pacman for example. Now what if on pacman a 50 year old father of 2 sat down and decided pacman was just too darn hard. So lets imagine Pac Man was an online mmo version of pacman. Now lets say his name is " Rodney" thats a good name right? Ok now Rodney decided that the Pacman devs need to make the game slow down so he can play while feeding gerber to little Timmy, plus how can Timmiy keep up? He's only 3 after all. So yeh the Pacman devs comprimize, and make the first 15 levels of pacman 50% slower, and with bigger more shiney Pellets. Now Rodney and little timmy can play, even compete at the same level. ... Ok so what happens next right? Now MORE pre schoolers and older gentlemen who want a  nice easy game to play while watching golf are good, the 18 to 28 year  olds are not soo happy. But the devs realize alot of recent retirees are now playing pacman so they get  greedy, They plan an expansion they call it the Burning pellets. Now Burning pellets has some pretty good gear, but there arent any ghosts hunting you anymore, all the ghosts are in a new ghost only zone called Battleghosts Arena, this makes the world safe for Timmy and Rodney. Out of boredome the original players decide to have ( Frequent) organized ghost village fights, and partake in Ghost Arena.

    Now After all that they get settled, they talk about the good old days when the whole world was a battlezone, but are content to fight each other and do some pellet raiding from time to time. Until the day the new expansion is realased Frozen pellet attack. Frozen pellets looks good on paper, but when it's released the bad side of Frozen pellets is learned. See Rodney had complained that pvp was "also too hard" for him and Timmy so the Devs in their glory invented a new pvp Ghost to play, more powerful than all the other ghosts, you can feed Timmy gerber and still pvp, you won't even have to see the screen half the time. And if someone runs away, simply push the ( I win ) button and you will be victorious, and Timmy won't cry after all.

     

    So the moral is Carebears will eventually ruin any game they play, and when they do, as far as they are concerned the game was thiers to begin with, no matter they didn't start playing till 3 years after release the important thing is that now the mean and bad players are gone, and everything is "Casual" now.

    But thats not the truth, the truth is the no game is build on a community of casual weakness, or wanting to halfway do anything, If you release a game with the title of " good family fun" or " even grandma likes it" then your NOT going to get the kind of player base you need at start up, WoW unless they improve are gonna get some serious hits when the real talent starts to leave. See right now their hanging around hoping a SERIOUS rebalancing is done, although soo much damage has already been dome, most good guilds are soo overstuffed with gear they would have to have another expansion worth of raiding to make up for the Empty feeling of something for nothing they have now.

    Thats why there are more players on UO private servers who do vanilla set ups then there are on the actual UO servers. UO hybrid dwarfs any current shard out there. Thats what happens, the only players you end up with are "casuals" and if WoW thinks catering to them is going to indefinately boost their numbers, then take a look at what that did for Ultima Online. But then Carebears don't care about that, as long as they get their way, they could play a single player RPG as long as it's nice and easy, and caters to their will,....I really wish they would do that.

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Originally posted by floppyface


    You have no idea what you're talking about I can guarantee that you werent playing WoW in 2004 when it was released.
    Onyxia and Molten Core were available at release and so was UBRS. If we put aside the that you could zone into any instance with 40 people.
    Tell me, what casual would have even known about the public release of WoW in late Nov 2004? How many signed up? Very very few. Most of the people who started WoW in its first couple of weeks were players from the "hardcore" mmorpg's you hate so much and battle.net players. Who do you think the beta testers were?
    People are sheep. They will follow whatever the pack is following. If it wasn't for the hardcore players from other mmorp's flocking to WoW the "casuals" wouldnt even know WoW existed. WoW was well known throughout the mmorpg scene long before the mainstream picked up on it.

     

    Uh, Wow was first released in US april 2004, not november. Are you talking about the EU release?

    Can't say that I know if it had any RAIDs in it then however.

  • FaelanFaelan Member UncommonPosts: 819
    Originally posted by Mwaji hat.

    Self proclaimed casuals should be called what we know they really are though, Carebears. So lets debunk some myths. First one, what is hard to a Carebear ... ahem " casual" is not hard for the average to better player. So saying it is hard for you when it's clearly not at all, is meaningless. It's hard for you, because you are bad, want hand outs, you wine you moan and when the game is broken to your satisfaction you Gloat. Whether its the downfall of UO, the ripping apart of Galaxies or any other horror story, you can bet an army of Carebears were there to defend the game till the bitter end. This is their game now, the rest of you just need to leave.

     

    LOL...

    So you're upset and using the label "casual" isn't enough of an insult, so you pull out the most overused and by now pointless term... carebear... instead and write a wall of text about it

    Fail

    Try harder the next time.

    I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

  • templargatemplarga Member UncommonPosts: 1,947
    Originally posted by Faelan

    Originally posted by Mwaji hat.

    Self proclaimed casuals should be called what we know they really are though, Carebears. So lets debunk some myths. First one, what is hard to a Carebear ... ahem " casual" is not hard for the average to better player. So saying it is hard for you when it's clearly not at all, is meaningless. It's hard for you, because you are bad, want hand outs, you wine you moan and when the game is broken to your satisfaction you Gloat. Whether its the downfall of UO, the ripping apart of Galaxies or any other horror story, you can bet an army of Carebears were there to defend the game till the bitter end. This is their game now, the rest of you just need to leave.

     

    LOL...

    So you're upset and using the label "casual" isn't enough of an insult, so you pull out the most overused and by now pointless term... carebear... instead and write a wall of text about it

    Fail

    Try harder the next time.

    Yep, he has been losing the casual argument and refuses to debate what it means and acknowledge that Blizzard made a design decision that he isn't happy with and made the game something he doesn't like. So now to try and further his vendetta against WOW, he pulls out the inflammatory term "carebear".

    Casual does not equal carebear. Carebear is a PVP associated term only. It is for people who want to play in a safe environment and no threat to their leveling, exploring, etc... To associate with casual, is not even to be in the same discussion and your post honestly makes no sense to me and obviously to others.

    And you are so wrong about Galaxies - SWG was ripped to shreds by poor design decisions. I know I was there from beta forward and the issues were incompetent developers and design, not the players. Actually most players, at the time, wanted MORE emphasis on the GCW and for Empire and Rebel battles, not less as you indicate carebears would want. Same with WAR - most players want more RVR and battles that matter, not less. Don't blame the players because Mythic created a game that caters to less RVR than more.

  • floppyfacefloppyface Member Posts: 97
    Originally posted by Loke666


    Uh, Wow was first released in US april 2004, not november. Are you talking about the EU release?
    Can't say that I know if it had any RAIDs in it then however.

     

    www.worldofwarcraft.com/news/wow-news2004.html  Scroll down to half way dated 11/23/04

    World of Warcraft - Day One - Block on 11/23/04

    With the release of World of Warcraft in North America, Australia, and New Zealand yesterday, we have already seen an incredible level of demand for the game. We launched with 41 servers in the U.S. yesterday, and we are bringing up an additional 34 servers today to accommodate the influx of players. Over 200,000 accounts were created in just a single day! Based on this, we can clearly tell that players are very excited about getting into the game, and as a result, we expect to see high concurrency on the servers for the first days that the game is available. As the rush to get onto the servers evens out and additional hardware is made available, the necessity for waiting queues will decrease.

    Beta might have started around April but beta is not considered a released product.

  • floppyfacefloppyface Member Posts: 97
    Originally posted by Faelan

    Originally posted by Mwaji hat.

    Self proclaimed casuals should be called what we know they really are though, Carebears. So lets debunk some myths. First one, what is hard to a Carebear ... ahem " casual" is not hard for the average to better player. So saying it is hard for you when it's clearly not at all, is meaningless. It's hard for you, because you are bad, want hand outs, you wine you moan and when the game is broken to your satisfaction you Gloat. Whether its the downfall of UO, the ripping apart of Galaxies or any other horror story, you can bet an army of Carebears were there to defend the game till the bitter end. This is their game now, the rest of you just need to leave.

     

    LOL...

    So you're upset and using the label "casual" isn't enough of an insult, so you pull out the most overused and by now pointless term... carebear... instead and write a wall of text about it

    Fail

    Try harder the next time.

     

    Why didn't you just write TL;DR? Congratulations, you did use "wall of text". But you forgot to say that Mwaji lives in his "mom's basement" and that he should "get a life".

    You did use "fail" so points for you there. "Cool story, bro" would also have been acceptable as would "QQ moar".

    Now run along and take your Ritalin. The WoW General Discussion forum is missing you.

     

     

  • floppyfacefloppyface Member Posts: 97
    Originally posted by templarga


    You are right about release but (as I posted above) Blizzard realized that they could never release enough content to keep the hardcore players happy while, at the same time, keeps casuals around. And casuals have always outnumbered hardcore raiders except at release. Most people forget but WOW had population issues in the first 6 months of release or so due to burnout and the hardcore raiding aspect.
    The problem has always been that if Blizzard caters to the raiders, then the casuals do not have time to do the same content. its the same basic philosophy why they reduced raids from 40 to 20 and then 10 - it took way too much time to get 40 people together nightly for raids. This created a rift in the game's playerbase and then Blizzard made the decision to go the casual route because, unlike hardcore raiders, casuals stay subscribed and continue to play because they never exhaust the content.

     

    I started played WoW in June 2005. I had only ever played EQ for a couple of hours and didn't like it. Not saying it was a bad game but it wasn't for me. Tried the beta of SWG and didn't like it. Same as EQ.

    The guild I was in pre-BC never did AQ40 of Naxx. We werent hardcore. Infact, we were pretty bad but it was the most fun I had in WoW. No one was ever forced to spec a certain way. No one was ever forced to use consumables. No one was ever forced to enchant their gear. There was no mandatory attendance to raids. Thats pretty damn casual.

    But we NEVER complained about those people doing AQ40 and Naxx. We didn't cry to Blizzard because we didn't get to see content. It was a totally different time. The sense of entitlement merely because you pay $15 was nowhere near as prevalent as it is today.

    Instead of complaining and bitching about those players who put in more time and effort and got to see more content that us, we were happy running Onyxia,MC,BWL, AQ20 and world bosses.

  • ValkaernValkaern Member UncommonPosts: 497

    By the second week of release, 4 of us (not 5) had 4 man'd every heroic instance and drained them of every epic that was an upgrade, before I even had to resub (luckily there was no need) our guild completed every 25 man encounter aside from malygos. And I can assure you, the guild I was in had an astounding number of mentally challenged people who couldn't follow instructions, didn't comprehend the concept of teamwork yet still beat all but one end game encounter within just a few weeks of an expansion years in the making.

    In the end we weren't up against a challenging game that forced us to think and react, we were competing against brain dead guildmates that managed to stumble through everything else and (successfully) did the same on raids. I have a feeling Blizzard is well aware of how many mentally deficient players they've attracted, and as such relied on them to provide the challenge for the remaining few.

    Face it, it wasn't a challenge and it was abysmally shallow. I could look past the lack of challenge if the game actually had some depth to it, and a community that wasn't a pack of degenerate snot ridddled mutants. Unfortunately though, that's what pandering to the lowest common denominator brings.

     

     

  • templargatemplarga Member UncommonPosts: 1,947
    Originally posted by Valkaern


    By the second week of release, 4 of us (not 5) had 4 man'd every heroic instance and drained them of every epic that was an upgrade, before I even had to resub (luckily there was no need) our guild completed every 25 man encounter aside from malygos. And I can assure you, the guild I was in had an astounding number of mentally challenged people who couldn't follow instructions, didn't comprehend the concept of teamwork yet still beat all but one end game encounter within just a few weeks of an expansion years in the making.
    In the end we weren't up against a challenging game that forced us to think and react, we were competing against brain dead guildmates that managed to stumble through everything else and (successfully) did the same on raids. I have a feeling Blizzard is well aware of how many mentally deficient players they've attracted, and as such relied on them to provide the challenge for the remaining few.
    Face it, it wasn't a challenge and it was abysmally shallow. I could look past the lack of challenge if the game actually had some depth to it, and a community that wasn't a pack of degenerate snot ridddled mutants. Unfortunately though, that's what pandering to the lowest common denominator brings.

    So would you like a cookie? Seriously, congrats to you and your mates but there are thousands of players who are still doing Naxx and other content and enjoying it. What I would like to know is how much time you put in.

    Going by what you said, you leveled to 80, farmed the appropriate factions, did all heroics and raids in 2 weeks. That is not casual and that brings us back to the beginnings on the argument.

    And thanks for all of the insults and name calling of WOW players. This really shows your elitist attitude towards the game and the community and to be honest, if you feel such a way - move along. WOW, its community and the game are obviously not for you and I recommend checking out Darkfall, Mortal Online or something you are more suited to play.

  • VrazuleVrazule Member Posts: 1,095

    I don't care if the content is easy or hard, just as long as it is fun and entertaining, not time wasting and frustrating.  You hardcores need to get a freaking life, bunch of losers.

    With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal

  • floppyfacefloppyface Member Posts: 97
    Originally posted by templarga

    So would you like a cookie? ...

    And thanks for all of the insults and name calling of WOW players.

    Originally posted by Vrazule

    I don't care if the content is easy or hard, just as long as it is fun and entertaining, not time wasting and frustrating. You hardcores need to get a freaking life, bunch of losers.

     

     

    Hello pot. This is kettle calling.

     

     

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Originally posted by Vrazule


    I don't care if the content is easy or hard, just as long as it is fun and entertaining, not time wasting and frustrating.  You hardcores need to get a freaking life, bunch of losers.

     

    Still, they could have put in a few RAIDs for the no-lifers, they are paying customers too and it wouldn' t really affect your gameplay, would it?

    Fun is important but HC players are a part of the community so at least some really hard content need to be implmented in a MMO. Blizz should really patch that in fast or they will all leave.

    No I am not a hardcore gamer but they need their MMO fix as well as the rest of us.

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