Thought it only fair to post Bob Guenthers reply to the post, I have no idea if it's true or not though the description of Whiting hitting the skids is substantiated somewhat,
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: You and Your Lawyer Larry
From: "Bob Guenther"
Date: Sun, January 25, 2009 1:35 pm
To:
? Jack,
Some where down deep, you must be a man of commitment, dedication, and pursuit of the truth.. From what I see, you do a great job of researching what you want, BUT even you, a seasoned investigative veteran, get carried away from the TRUTH, because you comment and post without giving ALL parties an equal chance to respond, BEFORE you start your yada yada all over the internet..
Take a look at the attachment.... Jack, I was in Las Vegas two weeks ago launching a product from one of my investment companies, auto/retail/internet related, a fantastic product voted one of the best new safety products of the show, We have been developing the product for 5 years.
Last Wednesday I flew from Scottsdale, where I have been since the day after Christmas, away from my family, trying to help a large group of mostly Mormon Investors keep their $40M investment intact, no learning, through many of my investigative efforts, the company is being run by couple of excommunicated Mormons, one the cofounder, Fred Gagon, who was permanently banned by the Arizona AG from any participation in unregistered securities, fined $700K and now has $11M in liens from that scam. Once I got close to the top, right after Christmas, he fled to Brazil, where his wife is from, and has not resurfaced yet, and wont, because when he does the AG has a few questions for him.. Gagon's former company Para Mas, a predecessor of a company called NOW, was also covertly run with Gary Whiting.. Something I also found out.. Gagon's Arizona case number, filed in October 96 is CV95-02482..
Fast forward to today.. Whiting leaves bolts Utah, excommunicated from the Mormon church for promoting polygamy and fraud within the Merman faithful, comes to Arizona and through a company called Empress Holdings starts a company, with NO INVESTMENT of his own in 2005-06 called CME. Now, having raise over $55M through over 15 shell corps, mostly incorporated in Utah, Nevada and Wyoming, and maybe Arizona, and actually stumbling on to a product, through absolutely NO effort of his own (This is a 2 hour whiteboard presentation). Now relegated to $50k-$150 investors, because NO BIG investor would spend more than 20 minutes with this clown when you know what I know, and NO sophisticated investor would put money into a deal like this without due diligence, then the economy hit the skids last August his $1.2M monthly burn rate to support his companies and personal ventures, he has failed to raise over $400k a month, so he owes $2.5M in pay roll taxes $5M in payables etc etc.. I could tell you more, but since I don't really know what you might post where, I will just stick to public records and public knowledge, that would make my Arizona lawyer happy. The mere fact that I answered your email will probably piss him off, but I don't have a staff to combat all this garbage on the internet, and because everything posted on the internet is obviously true, why bother, because after all, I've never seen a person found guilty and sent to jail, or ordered to pay restitution, by a Jury of PUBLIC OPINION, usually its by a 12 person jury of his peers..
All I can really say about this right now, do your own digging.. Go to World of Warcraft, the biggest online MMORG subscription game in the world, sign on and ask some questions, there are hundreds of Gamer forums, go see what they say about CME/StargateWorlds or MMOGULS, just the mere mention of MMOGULS by a member will get him banned, but then MMOGULS is another story,,, Cant say more, just do your research if you want to give a fair and balanced report.. By the way, I didn't take typing in high school< i took football and any other sport I could play, instaed of college, I went into the Marine Corp and spent 6 years with the USMC, 3 tours in Vietnam, diodnt learn to type there either, so for me to sit down and type this out is a HUGE comittment of my most valuable commodity, TIME..
Robert L.Guenther
President/Managing Partner
Jaffa Partners LP
Jaffa Partners Management Co, LLC
Arizona Office 480-545-2200
Texas Office 972-471-4408
Mobile 214-587-3977
bob@jaffapartners,com
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and call me at 480.545.2235 if you have received this e-mail by mistake. Immediately delete this communication from any computer or network system. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of e-mail transmission.
An interesting story and for all I know true, I wonder what Gary has to say on all of this?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
"Cheyenne Mountain & Affiliates" is not 'Cheyenne mountain entertainment' AKA CME
Some MMOGULS people have registered some companies with the following names
Cheyenne Mountain Games Cheyenne Mountain & Affiliates
a hell of alot of others, the main problem here is Cheyenne Mountain is a place, and cannot be trademarked. So please take all these 'Cheyenne Mountain' companies with a grain of salt, if it doesnt say CME then its not CME and not SGW. Now we have got past that bit, alot of these sites are springing up all over the place and are really misleading people into the sense they are in bed with the company CME, when they are in fact in bed with GW and not CME. Its actually pretty frightening that CME havent made any comments to rebuff the mmoguls stuff, but I am pretty sure that is down to inhouse politics, whose gonna outwardly say there primary investor is misleading people into buying into a mlm scheme run by GW that has nothing more than being a shop from to sell games through one of his other companies (itzyourmall) that also has nothing to do with CME.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Kyleran Cause you're not seeing the forest for the trees.
That's for sure, considering ALL of these companies have long ago been shown to be owned by the same guy.
I think now the thing to do is wait for the shoe to drop and the announcement made about how these three companies are going to "officially" tied together. It's only a matter of time in my opinion. I think it's been the plan all along and they're just waiting on something yet unknown. Or waiting until just before the game is released to lessen the chances of MGM/Sony stepping in and putting a halt to things.
That's for sure, considering ALL of these companies have long ago been shown to be owned by the same guy.
I think now the thing to do is wait for the shoe to drop and the announcement made about how these three companies are going to "officially" tied together. It's only a matter of time in my opinion. I think it's been the plan all along and they're just waiting on something yet unknown. Or waiting until just before the game is released to lessen the chances of MGM/Sony stepping in and putting a halt to things.
The last thing Whiting wants is to merge these companies or have them tied together, most of his companies have been alleged to be mere shell corps used to raise cash to by the SGW IP and get the project moving. He wants his debt spread out amongst many companies to lessen the damage.
I don't believe MMOGULs will last that long, it'll keep on going until the base of the pyramid is so large they cannot find enough people to sign up anymore. Then when the money stops he'll pull the plug andf let it go bankrupt. His objective is to reach atleast $50, if he gets this before SGW is launched my fear is he'll decide it's better to keep the money and let CME and all the shell companies fall rather than pay off the debts he owes and hope SGW sells.
Although if he does release it and it's a CME game I would rather eat glass than buy it. I seriously thought that no-one could make Smedley look legit, but Gary Whiting makes Smed seem like a choir boy!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
I had presumed that CME had fallen prey to the usual suspects: overambitious features, underestimated schedules, underfunded budget, and exacerbated by the economy and the lack of finding new investors, or having the existing ones pull out...
And it still may be. I won't presume the above is completely true either.
But, if it is, one has to wonder how MGM ever bought into this. Whiting must have had to propose a business plan, including funding, in order to buy the license. Did MGM simply go at the money and say "Where do we sign?" I just can't see any sane analysis of this being bought into by a studio. Hollywood is not known for being noobs in finance. Or did Whiting pull a fast one and misrepresent it, in which case, could MGM yoink the license?
The alternative is that MGM bought into this, which would just be another Wow
To those that still deny Gary Whiting owns CME, click. He's chairman and the only official director, he registered the company and sold shares to raise capital. With no other information to refute that he is no longer the largest shareholder or owns the company the logical and prudent course to take is that he still is in control, and in control of MMOGULs and Itzyourmall!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
Take a look at this interview click it confirms that Gary is the man but also goes on to talk about social networking. The guy interviewed states how SGW is going to be a part of a massive social network of CME products and perhaps other products. This all seems like a frightening prospect to anyone who wants to play SGW, SGC is merely a recruiting area for MMOGUL commands and a whole plethora of other products. I also doubt CME will prevent the proliferation of social networking commands harassing gamers and using it to push X product.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
Read this click I'll keep it to the rumour room until I find anything else out about this. Though I suspect Gary is in cahoots scamming the best he can on every front before he has to bolt with the cash. For those that don't want to click,
"Ripoff Report Verified Safe
JORDE TESSLER HAS TAKING 200,000k FROM ME RAISING THE SHARE'S AMOUNTS TO TURN A PROFIT FOR HIS OWN POCKET WHEN THE THERE REALLY NOT WORTH AS MUCH AS THEY ARE. HE TELLS THE INVESTOR TO MAKE THE CHECK OUT TO A 3RD PARTY COMPANY CALLED JORDISA LLC AND HAS CHEYENNE MT/STARGATE CUT THE SHARE'S TO THE PERSON OR COMPANY.
HE PROMISED ME THE THE GAME WOULD BE OUT IN 8-8-2008. JORDE NEEDS TO BE STOP HE'S MAKING A QUICK BUCK WHEN THE GAME IS NOT EVAN FINNISH WITH OUT A Securities License. HE WILL ALSO TAKE YOU ON A TOUR OF HIS HVAC COMPANY 'American Home Maintenance' TO MAKE YOU FEEL GOOD ABOUT INVESTING TOTAL SCAMMER BE AWARE OF THIS MAN
SAM
mesa, Arizona
U.S.A."
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
A statement from Robert Guenther has claimed that many staff are being fired at CME due to their refusal to co operate with Gary Whiting's MMOGULs scheme. He also claims among other things that CME owes $2.5 to the IRS! Have a read,
You have some of your facts partially correct, BUT do not associate me with this crook Gary Whiting. I am waging a successful campaign to have Whiting resign or replaced. He is a practicing Polygamist, a liar, a penny-stock wanna be "big player", and petty crook, along with his cofounder partner Fred Gagon, who has been banned by the State of Arizona from doing exactly what he has been doing, representing or selling unregistered securites in the State of Arizona.
MMOGULS is another scam of Whiting's. Within the last month he has fired anyone who will not manipulate the downlines the way he wants, he has never paid a commission, and basically is operating the beginning of a PONZI.. Taking in new investors to pay the commissions due to original investors, I am one of them.. But he has banned me from accessing my downline, even though I have recruited personally more people than any other person in MMOGULS. I could tell you so much more. Like CME owing the IRS $2.5M in payroll taxes, Whiting's embezzlement of $5M in investor proceeds etc etc etc..
Regarding the suit, Whiting filed a dumbass Workplace Harrassment Suit, it was thrown out without a hearing( See attached) Now he has filed another, and it will be thrown out as well,, That's all he has, plus distributing absolute dillusional rantings about me to the shareholders... Not to worry, his days are numbered..
BOB GUENTHER..........
It seems that there might be a battle for the ownership of CME and ultimately the Stargate license in hand also!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
Knowing everything that I know now about the company and this game, when I stop in at the forums and read through some threads I just can't help feeling very very sorry for those still desperately wanting to believe. I know considering the threats of bodily harm and personal attacks directed toward me by some of them I should feel some anger, but it's just pity I feel.
Thanks to Pugla for this info click, for those that can't be bothered to click,
Case number: CV09-03172
Plaintiff: IO Capital Princess LLC.
Defendant: Cheyenne Mountain Entertainment Inc., dba Cheyenne Mountain Games.
Nature of complaint: Unpaid open account.
Attorney for plaintiff: Geoffrey S. Kercsmar.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
Robert L. Guenther Arrested on 2 Felony Counts in Arizona
Well the little man with the big mouth who threatens to 'visit people's homes' and 'take them out" along with other threats and other intimidating remarks has just been arrested in Phoenix You may have wondered why he was not posting anything yesterday? He was busy trying to post Bond on two felony charges.
Miracopa County Prosecutor Jimmie Hicks says he would appreciate background information concerning Bob Guenther's continuing criminal activities. Hey Rookie, our turn to help you out!!
I will get the proper email address where you can complain about Bob's threats to you and where to send the documentation....
BREAKING NEWS: Bob Guenther Charged With Two Felony Counts Of Aggravated Harassment In Arizona
By admin on March 19th, 2009
UPDATED 2:12 P.M. EDT (U.S.A.) Bob Guenther, a mainstay in the AdSurfDaily case and the de facto head of the ASD Members Business Association (ASDMBA) Trust, has been charged with two felony counts of aggravated harassment in Maricopa County, Arizona.
Mesa, Arizona, police said Guenther repeatedly violated a court injunction for workplace harassment that prohibited him from nuisancing Cheyenne Mountain and Affiliates, an Arizona business.
Despite the injunction, Guenther continued to contact Cheyenne Mountain in a manner that “harassed or threatened” the company, police said.
Guenther violated the court order both by email and telephone, police said. An infraction that occurred via telephone was recorded and placed into evidence.
“[Guenther] is being charged with aggravated harassment because of the multiple violations of the injunction,” police said. The investigator handling the case said in court documents that up to five separate violations of the order occurred and that Guenther “continues to violate this injunction.”
The case is being prosecuted by the office of Maricopa County Attorney Andrew Thomas. Charges were filed March 13. Guenther is scheduled to make a court appearance April 14.
Read the criminal complaint for aggravated harassment against Guenther.
Guenther is the de facto head of ASDMBA, a group funded by members with the expectation that their legal interests would be protected in the AdSurfDaily Ponzi scheme case. Federal prosecutors seized tens of millions of dollars from ASD in August, saying the company was selling unregistered securities and engaging in wire fraud and money-laundering.
ASDMBA members said Guenther has refused to provide transparent accounting for ASDMBA, instead engaging in profanity, threats and menacing behavior. In recent days, Guenther has claimed that someone was impersonating him on the ASD-Biz forum, a discussion site for ASD and ASDMBA members and people interested in the case.
Guenther deleted his account at the forum, an act that also deleted his posts. He then established an account under a different user name. Within hours threats and hostile language appeared under his new forum identity.
Here is a post claimed by Guenther that appeared yesterday at the ASD-Biz Forum (italics added):
Ill tell you how you move on, you can kiss your ASD money goodbye…
None of you 10-12 idiots deserve a fricking thing but a butt kicking, certainly not my time
Arons, Ill see your dumbass in court. You are a piece of work rookie, and when I finish with you, there wont be a place you can hide, and that’s after Friedman..
This is Bob Guenther, my assistant, Maria will not waste her time again in this pissy room full of wanna-be’s, weak sucks, and overweight nagging women..
You dont like what I say, do something about it besides talk.. Bunch of weaks sisters.
The “Arons” to whom Guenther referred was Jack Arons, a Florida man named a defendant in a slander and libel lawsuit filed earlier this month by Dallas-based attorney Larry Friedman.
Friedman is the attorney for the Trust and was was introduced to ASDMBA members by Guenther. Some ASDMBA members said they had turned to the Texas Bar and the office of Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott to investigate the Trust.
Robert L. Guenther Arrested on 2 Felony Counts in Arizona Well the little man with the big mouth who threatens to 'visit people's homes' and 'take them out" along with other threats and other intimidating remarks has just been arrested in Phoenix You may have wondered why he was not posting anything yesterday? He was busy trying to post Bond on two felony charges.
Bwahahahahahahah!!!! That is the funniest thing I've ever read on these forums in all my time lurking here!! I love how it sort of died and became "who cares" after that post. JackArons should change his name to "threadkiller" or soemthing. LOL
I do get a kick out of everybody getting on MMOGULS and CME like they was some sort of scandal going on. So what if they are owned by the same guy? Whoopdedooo! Where does it say that MMOGULS is only going to offer the CME games exclusively? Who says they can't offer other developer's games as well? By the time this Stargate game ever releases, my guess is that MMOGULS will have enough momentum through other games that reach a much wider audience, that it isn't even going to rank as one of the most popular games they are involved with. People need to get over this supposed scandalous connection between CME and MMOGULS and just look at what they really are and that is BUSINESSES. It isn't the first time in history that strings of companies were put together to serve a purpose. Is it a huge scandal that the only drinks Taco Bell will serve come from the company that owns them??? Then why would it seem so that CME might release games that one of the companies the owner of CME also created?? They aren't even saying they will ONLY do business with CME either, so the whole MMOGULS thing is far less of a conspiracy than the Taco Bell/Pepsi connection. Geeze... some of you guys will see a conspiracy in anything. Is life really so boring that you have to think this hard?
And as for the little guy with the big mouth... That just made me think of this picture for some reason. LOL
That isn't what Bob looks like or anything, but it is certianly the image I get when I picture a little guy with a big mouth. lol
Where is Bob anyway? Still trying to post bond, or perhaps still working on his typing skills so he can launch a proper response? Or maybe his lawyer has finally convinced him to let people on the internet do whatever they want to do. Maybe he has somehow figured out that MMOGULS and CME are NOT in fact the devil and his mission to steer everybody away from them is probably more effort than it is worth. I've seriously never seen anyone fight so hard over something that is ultimately so minor. Personally I always take the opinions of people who are full of such hatred with a grain of salt. You lose all credibility when you demonstrate that you have lost all objectivity on a topic. Bob has clearly lost that.
Can we all just get back to waiting for CME, or whoever ultimately releases the Stargate game, to actually release it? I've been waiting for it for so long that I've almost forgotten I was waiting for it. But then you read stuff like this and the wait somehow seems worth it again. lol I love the drama, man...
Deputy I think what gamers are pointing out is that MMOGULs is an illegal pyramid/ponzi scheme and that's why there's so much drama. Guenther was one of Whitings business pals that helped him start up MMOGULs, if he's in trouble with the law I would wager that Whiting will be following soon.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
It's certainly an MLM, which aren't held in very great esteem in the first place. I'll not claim it's illegal, yet, but I certainly wouldn't want to be involved in it. BTW, from what I read, anyone who subscribes is called a "retail orphan" and will be automatically placed into the downlines of the first 100K platimum affiliates (assuming they get that many, but there sounds to be at least a 1000 so far). So, just by playing you will be rewarded with supporting an MLM. Neat, eh?
There's a couple of threads on CME over at F13.net:
It wanders a bit, a lot of it discussing the importance of IP and SG's IP in particular in the first, and the TTH story in the second.
I'll summarize the key statements/rumors:
A rumor that CME has spent $40mil and is $12mil in debt
A former CME developer Jerrith (at F13) says he/she's been paid his back-pay
A rumor by someone who knows someone who knows someone who works there saying that there are only 4 or 5 people showing up every day.
Jerrith saying that MMOGULS was one of the reasons why he/she left
Jerrith saying that work is being done there
Statements about there being serious problems before beta ended, though Jerrith says the major one had been found and fixed just before it was suspended.
I still think people need to get the whole MMOGULS - CME seperation straight. CME doesn't own MMOGULS. Whiting owns them both, but the corporations are not linked. Just because CME is having financial problems doesn't mean that MMOGULS is too. Just like if Pepsi started to have problems it doesn't mean that Taco Bell is about to go under. You may not like the man who owns them both, but they still seem like very seperate companies to me. I'm not seeing the problem. In fact, the way I've understood the MMOGULS thing to be, CME and the whole Stargate game isn't even the only thing they plan on marketing. They seem to plan on having multiple games across many game genres and not limiting themselves to just the MMO games. That's how I understand it anyway.
And you can't say that all MLMs are scams. I love how people who don't understand MLMs always throw out "pyramid scheme" or "ponzi scheme" whenever they hear about a new network marketing company. They forget that there are hundreds and hundreds of very successful network marketing companies that they may have even bought products from. Avon, Pampered Chef, Discovery Toys, Xango, Usana, any number of crafting products, Monavie, Enagic, NuSkin, hell... pick your favorite. I know this because I have worked in corporate for an MLM in the past and I am familiar with the industry. You can't call all MLMs a scam just because some people create similar looking plans with the intent to scam others. That can be said with anything. That is like saying any email you get is a scam just because scammers use that media to rip people off. Or all mechanics are scams just because some people set up business with the intent to rip people off. It is ignorance that causes people to just blanket statment "bah.... all MLMs are scams". It may be true that not everybody involved is a milionaire, but for most MLMs the affiliates become involved just to socialize with people who are like minded and have common interests. I know Avon distributors who only sell it so they can get the discount themselves. That is the way it is for many of them. MMOGULS isn't like most MLMs because thier product is going to be a lot different. If you understand their compensation plan (which I haven't heard anyone on this forum or any other forum properly explain) then you can see where there is potential to make good money. Yes, that depends on having a game that people want to play, but considering they will find a way to accomplish that, you can't deny that the opportunity to make money is real. You just need to put your ignorance in a sock about things you don't understand and ignore the corporate drama that has very little to do with anything. Sheesh... Many of you may work in corporate offices. Do you really think the crap that goes on in the office makes a whole hell of a lot of difference to the customer or the product?
Anyway, sorry about the rant there on MLMs. I just happen to know a lot of people who have been very successful in them. They worked full time to become that successful, so it isn't any shock that someone selling makeup to friends at work has not become as successful as the person selling it 12 hours a day and doing whatever it takes to build and maintain a customer base. No marketing is easy and network marketing is no exception. My whole point is that I don't care what CME does as long as the Stargate game comes out eventually. I don't envision myself signing up with MMOGULS and selling the opportunity to others, but I certianly won't turn down the opportunity to refer my friends to play a game that I enjoy and somehow profit from it. If MMOGULS has an idea on how I can do that, then it very well might be worth it. If they have access to a game that I want to play, then I don't mind doing a little research and finding out more about their plan.
I've been trying to a little careful about the difference between MLMs and pyramid/ponzi schemes when it comes to MMOGULS. What I've been most vehement about are CME's "denials" about any relationship with MMOGULS, a relationship which doesn't even have plausible deniability. At best, it may be technical truth (i.e., the "no contractual relationship", but when you have the same chairman of the board, who needs a contract? Plus, their offices are one floor apart in the same building.
You are correct that not all MLMs are scams, and there are many legit ones, but no other business arrangement probably has as much "scammability" as MLMs. I think that's a rather common perception, I'm afraid.
So about MMOGULS itself and whether it is legit or not, I've found a few resources about the structure on the web:
http://www.mymmoguls.com/ -- this is the link to the pitch direct from MMOGULS (linked to from mmoguls.com, if you are wondering if it is legit). It's fluff, but the most interesting point to me is the complete lack of a direct mention of CME or Stargate Worlds.
http://www.mmoguls.blogspot.com/ - I have no proof that this is directly from MMOGULS, or if it is from an "affiliate". If accurate, it lays out some of the membership and structure of the MLM, along with compensation plans. One thing it leaves out is that from everywhere else, I see that Platinum costs an up front $249 plus the $49.99 it mentions per month.
http://www.majelyn.com/FAQs.html - This is obviously an affiliate. But I think it shows a lot of the mindset and behind-the-scenes pitches that are being made. Some of the points:
"The conservative figures are 150,000,000- 200,000,000 people will be a part of MMOGULS. These subscriptions will come through Stargate Worlds®, the other 6 MMO games currently under development, and the 3D Social Network."
Wow, really? 150-200 million? Conservative figures? Facebook sized? WoW only has 11.5 million worldwide. And note the mention of SGW. It goes on to show how you could earn $500,000 a year this way. Great job if you can find it.
"For the sake of argument, let’s say Stargate Worlds® bombed and only got 1 million subscribers rather than the 150-200 million projected subscribers."
"Bombing" and only getting 1 million users? Ha. A million subscribers would be a runaway hit. Bombing for a title like this is more like 50-100K
http://www.majelyn.com/upload/IMA%20Agreement.pdf - Something new I just found. It purports to be the "Independent MMOGULS™ Affiliate Agreement". I haven't had the chance to read it yet, but it could be interesting so I'm including it here.
There are a couple things that make me take pause with the legitimacy of MMOGULS's MLM. The first is that I would lay even money that the are telling people about that 150-200 million user figure. That is so pie in the sky it's not funny. It hints to me that they are grossly overselling.
Next, is that they have no "real" product to sell yet. None of the MMOGULS games are out, and as far as I know, only SGW has been given any press. At best, and this was stated on the SGW forums by someone who claims to be an investor and has gotten a briefing, that they are targeting a Fall/winter 2009 launch. That is barely plausible, if they can get back to normal development. I'll note that we have just passed the 4th month since beta was suspended, with no announcement yet of its resumption. If this happens, then it will be a minimum of 6 months until release. Are the affiliates paying that $50 a month for just a website/blog?
And finally, I think one thing that makes an MLM more legit than not is if they have a product to sell. MMOGULS doesn't, really. All they are selling is memberships. Yes, that membership comes with a subscription to a single game (SGW, presumably), but you can't just get into the "retail" business. You will not be a game store. All you are trying to do is to sign up members into your downlines, and take advantage of getting the "retail orphans" signed up for you. And this is what seems to me to be VERY much like a pyramid scheme.
Edit:
Here's a good line out of the Affiliate agreement:
"Trademarks/Service Marks. IMAs shall not advertise MMOGULS™’, or business, or any business affiliated in any way with MMOGULS™ (i.e., MGM, Stargate, Stargate Worlds, Cheyenne Mountain Games, Cheyenne Mountain
So, just by playing you will be rewarded with supporting an MLM. Neat, eh?
And there's a sticky situation.
Let's assume for just a moment that SGW were to be released, and I as a subscriber am automatically integrated into the "downlines" of MMOGULS, and then this were to turn out to indeed be a Ponzi scheme.
I have seen enough Ponzi raids done by Federal Marshals and other law enforcement agencies to know that anyone involved, even if they swear they didn't know and in fact maybe DIDN'T know because of ignorance or blind trust, is still open to prosecution.
I think I have a very hard tme picturing myself signing up to play a game, knowing it could land me in court on a Federal indictment.
So, just by playing you will be rewarded with supporting an MLM. Neat, eh?
And there's a sticky situation.
Let's assume for just a moment that SGW were to be released, and I as a subscriber am automatically integrated into the "downlines" of MMOGULS, and then this were to turn out to indeed be a Ponzi scheme.
I have seen enough Ponzi raids done by Federal Marshals and other law enforcement agencies to know that anyone involved, even if they swear they didn't know and in fact maybe DIDN'T know because of ignorance or blind trust, is still open to prosecution.
I think I have a very hard tme picturing myself signing up to play a game, knowing it could land me in court on a Federal indictment.
I don't think by playing SGW you're signing up for MMOGULs. Gary Whiting has stated that by playing SGW you're now fodder for MMOGULs aqnd affiliates to recruit. From my understanding they envision SGW as being a massive feeding ground for downlines, where legit MMO players will be harrassed and hounded until they either join this MLM or leave the game.
Also MMOGULs (Gary Whiting and Co) since November, the earliest projections for actually having a product is August this year. So Whiting is taking money for nine months with no product being sold, and when August comes we have no evidence that it will launch. No evidence other than the word of a known scammer!
I'm not saying all these MLMs are scams, though I believe you'd have to be mad to get involved in one, I'm saying Whiting is a kinown scammer selling an MLM with no product. I don't believe it takes a rocket scientist to work out where this venture is going to end up, does it? I don't believe SGW will make it to launch before Whiting is standing in the dock, or fleeing to Brasil!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
So, just by playing you will be rewarded with supporting an MLM. Neat, eh?
And there's a sticky situation.
Let's assume for just a moment that SGW were to be released, and I as a subscriber am automatically integrated into the "downlines" of MMOGULS, and then this were to turn out to indeed be a Ponzi scheme.
I have seen enough Ponzi raids done by Federal Marshals and other law enforcement agencies to know that anyone involved, even if they swear they didn't know and in fact maybe DIDN'T know because of ignorance or blind trust, is still open to prosecution.
I think I have a very hard tme picturing myself signing up to play a game, knowing it could land me in court on a Federal indictment.
I don't think by playing SGW you're signing up for MMOGULs. Gary Whiting has stated that by playing SGW you're now fodder for MMOGULs aqnd affiliates to recruit. From my understanding they envision SGW as being a massive feeding ground for downlines, where legit MMO players will be harrassed and hounded until they either join this MLM or leave the game.
Also MMOGULs (Gary Whiting and Co) since November, the earliest projections for actually having a product is August this year. So Whiting is taking money for nine months with no product being sold, and when August comes we have no evidence that it will launch. No evidence other than the word of a known scammer!
I'm not saying all these MLMs are scams, though I believe you'd have to be mad to get involved in one, I'm saying Whiting is a kinown scammer selling an MLM with no product. I don't believe it takes a rocket scientist to work out where this venture is going to end up, does it? I don't believe SGW will make it to launch before Whiting is standing in the dock, or fleeing to Brasil!
What I highlighted there is one of the big red flags that gets a law agency interested when they learn of it, as it is a hallmark of crooked pyramid/ponzi schemes. I'm willing to bet that, with as much publicity this is starting to get, that if there isn't a law agancy scoping this thing out right now, there will be very soon.
Originally posted by Agricola I don't think by playing SGW you're signing up for MMOGULs.... Also MMOGULs (Gary Whiting and Co) since November, the earliest projections for actually having a product is August this year. ...
The first depends on what is actually true about the "retail orphans". From the FAQs that one MMOGULS member has posted:
"New subscribers (gamers and social networkers) called “Retail Orphans” will be placed in open positions under the first 100,000 Early Adopter Platinum Subscribers"
Then the example of SGW bombing and "only getting a million subscribers" (LOL) puts all of them in the downlines
This suggests that every SGW subscriber will be placed in the MLM structure.
However, I would not be all that concerned that as just a game subscriber, the Feds would come after you. But I imagine there will be recruiting/emails from your upline trying to get you to upgrade and get an MMOGULS membership.
On the second point quoted above, I saw one MMOGULS site that gave an April release, which of course is impossible. As I said earllier, CME is telling investors (there are apparently many small investors in the area who did so in a non-MMOGULS way--according to posts I've seen if accurate) that the game is being targeted at a Fall/Winter 2009 release. But if that's going to happen, they better restart beta real quick. Hmm, I wonder if "Winter 2009" includes 2010?
I had to log in and say that your signature is absolutely hilarious. =D Though I think the actual fumble rate is closer to 99% =P
oh, to be on-topic:
I can't believe you are all still grasping at such skinny straws in a vain attempt at making a bundle of kindling big enough to start a campfire. Your facts are so off-base, and out there it's fairly impossible to talk any sense into you. I'm not going to try and be drawn into a long argument with you still ending up with the wrong conclusions. =D
Wise but Cruel, I had to log in and say that your signature is absolutely hilarious. =D Though I think the actual fumble rate is closer to 99% =P oh, to be on-topic: I can't believe you are all still grasping at such skinny straws in a vain attempt at making a bundle of kindling big enough to start a campfire. Your facts are so off-base, and out there it's fairly impossible to talk any sense into you. I'm not going to try and be drawn into a long argument with you still ending up with the wrong conclusions. =D
Am I the only one that sees the irony in that statement? Also this is the "Rumour Room", facts aren't required only rumours like this one from the executive producer and screen writer of Stargate and consultant to CME,
On April the third Brad Wright gave an interview to an independent fansite (gateworld.net), where when asked about SGW he stated,
“We don’t know,” Wright told GateWorld, regarding the future of Stargate Worlds. “It’s a shame. If it doesn’t happen — and, let’s be honest, it should be happening now if it was happening. It’s a shame. It’s a terrible shame.
“They had an opportunity and they got our support, and they obviously had significant funding, and it didn’t happen. It’s kind of a drag for the fans and the time that we invested — what little of it there really was, in comparison to what they did — was still a shame that it was wasted, because it should have happened.”
Ineresting, no?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
Rumour has it that CME didn't meet the last payroll and some have gone without their paycheck again. I believe it may have something to do with the recent audit done by MGM. Perhaps Whiting is going to have the license pulled and has decided to keep as much cash as possible? I hope this ends up with someone else taking on the license and finishing SGW and giving those DEVs a proper stable job.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
Comments
Thought it only fair to post Bob Guenthers reply to the post, I have no idea if it's true or not though the description of Whiting hitting the skids is substantiated somewhat,
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: You and Your Lawyer Larry
From: "Bob Guenther"
Date: Sun, January 25, 2009 1:35 pm
To:
? Jack,
Some where down deep, you must be a man of commitment, dedication, and pursuit of the truth.. From what I see, you do a great job of researching what you want, BUT even you, a seasoned investigative veteran, get carried away from the TRUTH, because you comment and post without giving ALL parties an equal chance to respond, BEFORE you start your yada yada all over the internet..
Take a look at the attachment.... Jack, I was in Las Vegas two weeks ago launching a product from one of my investment companies, auto/retail/internet related, a fantastic product voted one of the best new safety products of the show, We have been developing the product for 5 years.
Last Wednesday I flew from Scottsdale, where I have been since the day after Christmas, away from my family, trying to help a large group of mostly Mormon Investors keep their $40M investment intact, no learning, through many of my investigative efforts, the company is being run by couple of excommunicated Mormons, one the cofounder, Fred Gagon, who was permanently banned by the Arizona AG from any participation in unregistered securities, fined $700K and now has $11M in liens from that scam. Once I got close to the top, right after Christmas, he fled to Brazil, where his wife is from, and has not resurfaced yet, and wont, because when he does the AG has a few questions for him.. Gagon's former company Para Mas, a predecessor of a company called NOW, was also covertly run with Gary Whiting.. Something I also found out.. Gagon's Arizona case number, filed in October 96 is CV95-02482..
Fast forward to today.. Whiting leaves bolts Utah, excommunicated from the Mormon church for promoting polygamy and fraud within the Merman faithful, comes to Arizona and through a company called Empress Holdings starts a company, with NO INVESTMENT of his own in 2005-06 called CME. Now, having raise over $55M through over 15 shell corps, mostly incorporated in Utah, Nevada and Wyoming, and maybe Arizona, and actually stumbling on to a product, through absolutely NO effort of his own (This is a 2 hour whiteboard presentation). Now relegated to $50k-$150 investors, because NO BIG investor would spend more than 20 minutes with this clown when you know what I know, and NO sophisticated investor would put money into a deal like this without due diligence, then the economy hit the skids last August his $1.2M monthly burn rate to support his companies and personal ventures, he has failed to raise over $400k a month, so he owes $2.5M in pay roll taxes $5M in payables etc etc.. I could tell you more, but since I don't really know what you might post where, I will just stick to public records and public knowledge, that would make my Arizona lawyer happy. The mere fact that I answered your email will probably piss him off, but I don't have a staff to combat all this garbage on the internet, and because everything posted on the internet is obviously true, why bother, because after all, I've never seen a person found guilty and sent to jail, or ordered to pay restitution, by a Jury of PUBLIC OPINION, usually its by a 12 person jury of his peers..
All I can really say about this right now, do your own digging.. Go to World of Warcraft, the biggest online MMORG subscription game in the world, sign on and ask some questions, there are hundreds of Gamer forums, go see what they say about CME/StargateWorlds or MMOGULS, just the mere mention of MMOGULS by a member will get him banned, but then MMOGULS is another story,,, Cant say more, just do your research if you want to give a fair and balanced report.. By the way, I didn't take typing in high school< i took football and any other sport I could play, instaed of college, I went into the Marine Corp and spent 6 years with the USMC, 3 tours in Vietnam, diodnt learn to type there either, so for me to sit down and type this out is a HUGE comittment of my most valuable commodity, TIME..
Robert L.Guenther
President/Managing Partner
Jaffa Partners LP
Jaffa Partners Management Co, LLC
Arizona Office 480-545-2200
Texas Office 972-471-4408
Mobile 214-587-3977
bob@jaffapartners,com
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and call me at 480.545.2235 if you have received this e-mail by mistake. Immediately delete this communication from any computer or network system. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of e-mail transmission.
An interesting story and for all I know true, I wonder what Gary has to say on all of this?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
You're not a DF fan are you?
Cause you're not seeing the forest for the trees.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think now the thing to do is wait for the shoe to drop and the announcement made about how these three companies are going to "officially" tied together. It's only a matter of time in my opinion. I think it's been the plan all along and they're just waiting on something yet unknown. Or waiting until just before the game is released to lessen the chances of MGM/Sony stepping in and putting a halt to things.
I think now the thing to do is wait for the shoe to drop and the announcement made about how these three companies are going to "officially" tied together. It's only a matter of time in my opinion. I think it's been the plan all along and they're just waiting on something yet unknown. Or waiting until just before the game is released to lessen the chances of MGM/Sony stepping in and putting a halt to things.
The last thing Whiting wants is to merge these companies or have them tied together, most of his companies have been alleged to be mere shell corps used to raise cash to by the SGW IP and get the project moving. He wants his debt spread out amongst many companies to lessen the damage.
I don't believe MMOGULs will last that long, it'll keep on going until the base of the pyramid is so large they cannot find enough people to sign up anymore. Then when the money stops he'll pull the plug andf let it go bankrupt. His objective is to reach atleast $50, if he gets this before SGW is launched my fear is he'll decide it's better to keep the money and let CME and all the shell companies fall rather than pay off the debts he owes and hope SGW sells.
Although if he does release it and it's a CME game I would rather eat glass than buy it. I seriously thought that no-one could make Smedley look legit, but Gary Whiting makes Smed seem like a choir boy!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Wow.... that's all I can say... Wow...
I had presumed that CME had fallen prey to the usual suspects: overambitious features, underestimated schedules, underfunded budget, and exacerbated by the economy and the lack of finding new investors, or having the existing ones pull out...
And it still may be. I won't presume the above is completely true either.
But, if it is, one has to wonder how MGM ever bought into this. Whiting must have had to propose a business plan, including funding, in order to buy the license. Did MGM simply go
at the money and say "Where do we sign?" I just can't see any sane analysis of this being bought into by a studio. Hollywood is not known for being noobs in finance. Or did Whiting pull a fast one and misrepresent it, in which case, could MGM yoink the license?
The alternative is that MGM bought into this, which would just be another Wow
To those that still deny Gary Whiting owns CME, click. He's chairman and the only official director, he registered the company and sold shares to raise capital. With no other information to refute that he is no longer the largest shareholder or owns the company the logical and prudent course to take is that he still is in control, and in control of MMOGULs and Itzyourmall!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Take a look at this interview click it confirms that Gary is the man but also goes on to talk about social networking. The guy interviewed states how SGW is going to be a part of a massive social network of CME products and perhaps other products. This all seems like a frightening prospect to anyone who wants to play SGW, SGC is merely a recruiting area for MMOGUL commands and a whole plethora of other products. I also doubt CME will prevent the proliferation of social networking commands harassing gamers and using it to push X product.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Read this click I'll keep it to the rumour room until I find anything else out about this. Though I suspect Gary is in cahoots scamming the best he can on every front before he has to bolt with the cash. For those that don't want to click,
"Ripoff Report Verified Safe
JORDE TESSLER HAS TAKING 200,000k FROM ME RAISING THE SHARE'S AMOUNTS TO TURN A PROFIT FOR HIS OWN POCKET WHEN THE THERE REALLY NOT WORTH AS MUCH AS THEY ARE. HE TELLS THE INVESTOR TO MAKE THE CHECK OUT TO A 3RD PARTY COMPANY CALLED JORDISA LLC AND HAS CHEYENNE MT/STARGATE CUT THE SHARE'S TO THE PERSON OR COMPANY.
HE PROMISED ME THE THE GAME WOULD BE OUT IN 8-8-2008. JORDE NEEDS TO BE STOP HE'S MAKING A QUICK BUCK WHEN THE GAME IS NOT EVAN FINNISH WITH OUT A Securities License. HE WILL ALSO TAKE YOU ON A TOUR OF HIS HVAC COMPANY 'American Home Maintenance' TO MAKE YOU FEEL GOOD ABOUT INVESTING TOTAL SCAMMER BE AWARE OF THIS MAN
SAM
mesa, Arizona
U.S.A."
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
A statement from Robert Guenther has claimed that many staff are being fired at CME due to their refusal to co operate with Gary Whiting's MMOGULs scheme. He also claims among other things that CME owes $2.5 to the IRS! Have a read,
You have some of your facts partially correct, BUT do not associate me with this crook Gary Whiting. I am waging a successful campaign to have Whiting resign or replaced. He is a practicing Polygamist, a liar, a penny-stock wanna be "big player", and petty crook, along with his cofounder partner Fred Gagon, who has been banned by the State of Arizona from doing exactly what he has been doing, representing or selling unregistered securites in the State of Arizona.
MMOGULS is another scam of Whiting's. Within the last month he has fired anyone who will not manipulate the downlines the way he wants, he has never paid a commission, and basically is operating the beginning of a PONZI.. Taking in new investors to pay the commissions due to original investors, I am one of them.. But he has banned me from accessing my downline, even though I have recruited personally more people than any other person in MMOGULS. I could tell you so much more. Like CME owing the IRS $2.5M in payroll taxes, Whiting's embezzlement of $5M in investor proceeds etc etc etc..
Regarding the suit, Whiting filed a dumbass Workplace Harrassment Suit, it was thrown out without a hearing( See attached) Now he has filed another, and it will be thrown out as well,, That's all he has, plus distributing absolute dillusional rantings about me to the shareholders... Not to worry, his days are numbered..
BOB GUENTHER..........
It seems that there might be a battle for the ownership of CME and ultimately the Stargate license in hand also!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Knowing everything that I know now about the company and this game, when I stop in at the forums and read through some threads I just can't help feeling very very sorry for those still desperately wanting to believe. I know considering the threats of bodily harm and personal attacks directed toward me by some of them I should feel some anger, but it's just pity I feel.
Thanks to Pugla for this info click, for those that can't be bothered to click,
Case number: CV09-03172
Plaintiff: IO Capital Princess LLC.
Defendant: Cheyenne Mountain Entertainment Inc., dba Cheyenne Mountain Games.
Nature of complaint: Unpaid open account.
Attorney for plaintiff: Geoffrey S. Kercsmar.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Robert L. Guenther Arrested on 2 Felony Counts in Arizona
Well the little man with the big mouth who threatens to 'visit people's homes' and 'take them out" along with other threats and other intimidating remarks has just been arrested in Phoenix You may have wondered why he was not posting anything yesterday? He was busy trying to post Bond on two felony charges.
Miracopa County Prosecutor Jimmie Hicks says he would appreciate background information concerning Bob Guenther's continuing criminal activities. Hey Rookie, our turn to help you out!!
I will get the proper email address where you can complain about Bob's threats to you and where to send the documentation....
Wayne
http://patrickpretty.com/
BREAKING NEWS: Bob Guenther Charged With Two Felony Counts Of Aggravated Harassment In Arizona
By admin on March 19th, 2009
UPDATED 2:12 P.M. EDT (U.S.A.) Bob Guenther, a mainstay in the AdSurfDaily case and the de facto head of the ASD Members Business Association (ASDMBA) Trust, has been charged with two felony counts of aggravated harassment in Maricopa County, Arizona.
Mesa, Arizona, police said Guenther repeatedly violated a court injunction for workplace harassment that prohibited him from nuisancing Cheyenne Mountain and Affiliates, an Arizona business.
Despite the injunction, Guenther continued to contact Cheyenne Mountain in a manner that “harassed or threatened” the company, police said.
Guenther violated the court order both by email and telephone, police said. An infraction that occurred via telephone was recorded and placed into evidence.
“[Guenther] is being charged with aggravated harassment because of the multiple violations of the injunction,” police said. The investigator handling the case said in court documents that up to five separate violations of the order occurred and that Guenther “continues to violate this injunction.”
The case is being prosecuted by the office of Maricopa County Attorney Andrew Thomas. Charges were filed March 13. Guenther is scheduled to make a court appearance April 14.
Read the criminal complaint for aggravated harassment against Guenther.
Guenther is the de facto head of ASDMBA, a group funded by members with the expectation that their legal interests would be protected in the AdSurfDaily Ponzi scheme case. Federal prosecutors seized tens of millions of dollars from ASD in August, saying the company was selling unregistered securities and engaging in wire fraud and money-laundering.
ASDMBA members said Guenther has refused to provide transparent accounting for ASDMBA, instead engaging in profanity, threats and menacing behavior. In recent days, Guenther has claimed that someone was impersonating him on the ASD-Biz forum, a discussion site for ASD and ASDMBA members and people interested in the case.
Guenther deleted his account at the forum, an act that also deleted his posts. He then established an account under a different user name. Within hours threats and hostile language appeared under his new forum identity.
Here is a post claimed by Guenther that appeared yesterday at the ASD-Biz Forum (italics added):
Ill tell you how you move on, you can kiss your ASD money goodbye…
None of you 10-12 idiots deserve a fricking thing but a butt kicking, certainly not my time
Arons, Ill see your dumbass in court. You are a piece of work rookie, and when I finish with you, there wont be a place you can hide, and that’s after Friedman..
This is Bob Guenther, my assistant, Maria will not waste her time again in this pissy room full of wanna-be’s, weak sucks, and overweight nagging women..
You dont like what I say, do something about it besides talk.. Bunch of weaks sisters.
The “Arons” to whom Guenther referred was Jack Arons, a Florida man named a defendant in a slander and libel lawsuit filed earlier this month by Dallas-based attorney Larry Friedman.
Friedman is the attorney for the Trust and was was introduced to ASDMBA members by Guenther. Some ASDMBA members said they had turned to the Texas Bar and the office of Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott to investigate the Trust.
Bwahahahahahahah!!!! That is the funniest thing I've ever read on these forums in all my time lurking here!! I love how it sort of died and became "who cares" after that post. JackArons should change his name to "threadkiller" or soemthing. LOL
I do get a kick out of everybody getting on MMOGULS and CME like they was some sort of scandal going on. So what if they are owned by the same guy? Whoopdedooo! Where does it say that MMOGULS is only going to offer the CME games exclusively? Who says they can't offer other developer's games as well? By the time this Stargate game ever releases, my guess is that MMOGULS will have enough momentum through other games that reach a much wider audience, that it isn't even going to rank as one of the most popular games they are involved with. People need to get over this supposed scandalous connection between CME and MMOGULS and just look at what they really are and that is BUSINESSES. It isn't the first time in history that strings of companies were put together to serve a purpose. Is it a huge scandal that the only drinks Taco Bell will serve come from the company that owns them??? Then why would it seem so that CME might release games that one of the companies the owner of CME also created?? They aren't even saying they will ONLY do business with CME either, so the whole MMOGULS thing is far less of a conspiracy than the Taco Bell/Pepsi connection. Geeze... some of you guys will see a conspiracy in anything. Is life really so boring that you have to think this hard?
And as for the little guy with the big mouth... That just made me think of this picture for some reason. LOL
That isn't what Bob looks like or anything, but it is certianly the image I get when I picture a little guy with a big mouth. lol
Where is Bob anyway? Still trying to post bond, or perhaps still working on his typing skills so he can launch a proper response? Or maybe his lawyer has finally convinced him to let people on the internet do whatever they want to do. Maybe he has somehow figured out that MMOGULS and CME are NOT in fact the devil and his mission to steer everybody away from them is probably more effort than it is worth. I've seriously never seen anyone fight so hard over something that is ultimately so minor. Personally I always take the opinions of people who are full of such hatred with a grain of salt. You lose all credibility when you demonstrate that you have lost all objectivity on a topic. Bob has clearly lost that.
Can we all just get back to waiting for CME, or whoever ultimately releases the Stargate game, to actually release it? I've been waiting for it for so long that I've almost forgotten I was waiting for it. But then you read stuff like this and the wait somehow seems worth it again. lol I love the drama, man...
Deputy I think what gamers are pointing out is that MMOGULs is an illegal pyramid/ponzi scheme and that's why there's so much drama. Guenther was one of Whitings business pals that helped him start up MMOGULs, if he's in trouble with the law I would wager that Whiting will be following soon.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
It's certainly an MLM, which aren't held in very great esteem in the first place. I'll not claim it's illegal, yet, but I certainly wouldn't want to be involved in it. BTW, from what I read, anyone who subscribes is called a "retail orphan" and will be automatically placed into the downlines of the first 100K platimum affiliates (assuming they get that many, but there sounds to be at least a 1000 so far). So, just by playing you will be rewarded with supporting an MLM. Neat, eh?
There's a couple of threads on CME over at F13.net:
http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=15476.0
http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=15853.0
It wanders a bit, a lot of it discussing the importance of IP and SG's IP in particular in the first, and the TTH story in the second.
I'll summarize the key statements/rumors:
I still think people need to get the whole MMOGULS - CME seperation straight. CME doesn't own MMOGULS. Whiting owns them both, but the corporations are not linked. Just because CME is having financial problems doesn't mean that MMOGULS is too. Just like if Pepsi started to have problems it doesn't mean that Taco Bell is about to go under. You may not like the man who owns them both, but they still seem like very seperate companies to me. I'm not seeing the problem. In fact, the way I've understood the MMOGULS thing to be, CME and the whole Stargate game isn't even the only thing they plan on marketing. They seem to plan on having multiple games across many game genres and not limiting themselves to just the MMO games. That's how I understand it anyway.
And you can't say that all MLMs are scams. I love how people who don't understand MLMs always throw out "pyramid scheme" or "ponzi scheme" whenever they hear about a new network marketing company. They forget that there are hundreds and hundreds of very successful network marketing companies that they may have even bought products from. Avon, Pampered Chef, Discovery Toys, Xango, Usana, any number of crafting products, Monavie, Enagic, NuSkin, hell... pick your favorite. I know this because I have worked in corporate for an MLM in the past and I am familiar with the industry. You can't call all MLMs a scam just because some people create similar looking plans with the intent to scam others. That can be said with anything. That is like saying any email you get is a scam just because scammers use that media to rip people off. Or all mechanics are scams just because some people set up business with the intent to rip people off. It is ignorance that causes people to just blanket statment "bah.... all MLMs are scams". It may be true that not everybody involved is a milionaire, but for most MLMs the affiliates become involved just to socialize with people who are like minded and have common interests. I know Avon distributors who only sell it so they can get the discount themselves. That is the way it is for many of them. MMOGULS isn't like most MLMs because thier product is going to be a lot different. If you understand their compensation plan (which I haven't heard anyone on this forum or any other forum properly explain) then you can see where there is potential to make good money. Yes, that depends on having a game that people want to play, but considering they will find a way to accomplish that, you can't deny that the opportunity to make money is real. You just need to put your ignorance in a sock about things you don't understand and ignore the corporate drama that has very little to do with anything. Sheesh... Many of you may work in corporate offices. Do you really think the crap that goes on in the office makes a whole hell of a lot of difference to the customer or the product?
Anyway, sorry about the rant there on MLMs. I just happen to know a lot of people who have been very successful in them. They worked full time to become that successful, so it isn't any shock that someone selling makeup to friends at work has not become as successful as the person selling it 12 hours a day and doing whatever it takes to build and maintain a customer base. No marketing is easy and network marketing is no exception. My whole point is that I don't care what CME does as long as the Stargate game comes out eventually. I don't envision myself signing up with MMOGULS and selling the opportunity to others, but I certianly won't turn down the opportunity to refer my friends to play a game that I enjoy and somehow profit from it. If MMOGULS has an idea on how I can do that, then it very well might be worth it. If they have access to a game that I want to play, then I don't mind doing a little research and finding out more about their plan.
I've been trying to a little careful about the difference between MLMs and pyramid/ponzi schemes when it comes to MMOGULS. What I've been most vehement about are CME's "denials" about any relationship with MMOGULS, a relationship which doesn't even have plausible deniability. At best, it may be technical truth (i.e., the "no contractual relationship", but when you have the same chairman of the board, who needs a contract? Plus, their offices are one floor apart in the same building.
You are correct that not all MLMs are scams, and there are many legit ones, but no other business arrangement probably has as much "scammability" as MLMs. I think that's a rather common perception, I'm afraid.
So about MMOGULS itself and whether it is legit or not, I've found a few resources about the structure on the web:
http://www.mymmoguls.com/ -- this is the link to the pitch direct from MMOGULS (linked to from mmoguls.com, if you are wondering if it is legit). It's fluff, but the most interesting point to me is the complete lack of a direct mention of CME or Stargate Worlds.
http://www.mmoguls.blogspot.com/ - I have no proof that this is directly from MMOGULS, or if it is from an "affiliate". If accurate, it lays out some of the membership and structure of the MLM, along with compensation plans. One thing it leaves out is that from everywhere else, I see that Platinum costs an up front $249 plus the $49.99 it mentions per month.
http://www.majelyn.com/FAQs.html - This is obviously an affiliate. But I think it shows a lot of the mindset and behind-the-scenes pitches that are being made. Some of the points:
Wow, really? 150-200 million? Conservative figures? Facebook sized? WoW only has 11.5 million worldwide. And note the mention of SGW. It goes on to show how you could earn $500,000 a year this way. Great job if you can find it.
"Bombing" and only getting 1 million users? Ha. A million subscribers would be a runaway hit. Bombing for a title like this is more like 50-100K
http://www.majelyn.com/upload/IMA%20Agreement.pdf - Something new I just found. It purports to be the "Independent MMOGULS™ Affiliate Agreement". I haven't had the chance to read it yet, but it could be interesting so I'm including it here.
There are a couple things that make me take pause with the legitimacy of MMOGULS's MLM. The first is that I would lay even money that the are telling people about that 150-200 million user figure. That is so pie in the sky it's not funny. It hints to me that they are grossly overselling.
Next, is that they have no "real" product to sell yet. None of the MMOGULS games are out, and as far as I know, only SGW has been given any press. At best, and this was stated on the SGW forums by someone who claims to be an investor and has gotten a briefing, that they are targeting a Fall/winter 2009 launch. That is barely plausible, if they can get back to normal development. I'll note that we have just passed the 4th month since beta was suspended, with no announcement yet of its resumption. If this happens, then it will be a minimum of 6 months until release. Are the affiliates paying that $50 a month for just a website/blog?
And finally, I think one thing that makes an MLM more legit than not is if they have a product to sell. MMOGULS doesn't, really. All they are selling is memberships. Yes, that membership comes with a subscription to a single game (SGW, presumably), but you can't just get into the "retail" business. You will not be a game store. All you are trying to do is to sign up members into your downlines, and take advantage of getting the "retail orphans" signed up for you. And this is what seems to me to be VERY much like a pyramid scheme.
Edit:
Here's a good line out of the Affiliate agreement:
Entertainment, and FireSky),..."
"Not affilated with MMOGULS", eh?
And there's a sticky situation.
Let's assume for just a moment that SGW were to be released, and I as a subscriber am automatically integrated into the "downlines" of MMOGULS, and then this were to turn out to indeed be a Ponzi scheme.
I have seen enough Ponzi raids done by Federal Marshals and other law enforcement agencies to know that anyone involved, even if they swear they didn't know and in fact maybe DIDN'T know because of ignorance or blind trust, is still open to prosecution.
I think I have a very hard tme picturing myself signing up to play a game, knowing it could land me in court on a Federal indictment.
And there's a sticky situation.
Let's assume for just a moment that SGW were to be released, and I as a subscriber am automatically integrated into the "downlines" of MMOGULS, and then this were to turn out to indeed be a Ponzi scheme.
I have seen enough Ponzi raids done by Federal Marshals and other law enforcement agencies to know that anyone involved, even if they swear they didn't know and in fact maybe DIDN'T know because of ignorance or blind trust, is still open to prosecution.
I think I have a very hard tme picturing myself signing up to play a game, knowing it could land me in court on a Federal indictment.
I don't think by playing SGW you're signing up for MMOGULs. Gary Whiting has stated that by playing SGW you're now fodder for MMOGULs aqnd affiliates to recruit. From my understanding they envision SGW as being a massive feeding ground for downlines, where legit MMO players will be harrassed and hounded until they either join this MLM or leave the game.
Also MMOGULs (Gary Whiting and Co) since November, the earliest projections for actually having a product is August this year. So Whiting is taking money for nine months with no product being sold, and when August comes we have no evidence that it will launch. No evidence other than the word of a known scammer!
I'm not saying all these MLMs are scams, though I believe you'd have to be mad to get involved in one, I'm saying Whiting is a kinown scammer selling an MLM with no product. I don't believe it takes a rocket scientist to work out where this venture is going to end up, does it? I don't believe SGW will make it to launch before Whiting is standing in the dock, or fleeing to Brasil!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
And there's a sticky situation.
Let's assume for just a moment that SGW were to be released, and I as a subscriber am automatically integrated into the "downlines" of MMOGULS, and then this were to turn out to indeed be a Ponzi scheme.
I have seen enough Ponzi raids done by Federal Marshals and other law enforcement agencies to know that anyone involved, even if they swear they didn't know and in fact maybe DIDN'T know because of ignorance or blind trust, is still open to prosecution.
I think I have a very hard tme picturing myself signing up to play a game, knowing it could land me in court on a Federal indictment.
I don't think by playing SGW you're signing up for MMOGULs. Gary Whiting has stated that by playing SGW you're now fodder for MMOGULs aqnd affiliates to recruit. From my understanding they envision SGW as being a massive feeding ground for downlines, where legit MMO players will be harrassed and hounded until they either join this MLM or leave the game.
Also MMOGULs (Gary Whiting and Co) since November, the earliest projections for actually having a product is August this year. So Whiting is taking money for nine months with no product being sold, and when August comes we have no evidence that it will launch. No evidence other than the word of a known scammer!
I'm not saying all these MLMs are scams, though I believe you'd have to be mad to get involved in one, I'm saying Whiting is a kinown scammer selling an MLM with no product. I don't believe it takes a rocket scientist to work out where this venture is going to end up, does it? I don't believe SGW will make it to launch before Whiting is standing in the dock, or fleeing to Brasil!
What I highlighted there is one of the big red flags that gets a law agency interested when they learn of it, as it is a hallmark of crooked pyramid/ponzi schemes. I'm willing to bet that, with as much publicity this is starting to get, that if there isn't a law agancy scoping this thing out right now, there will be very soon.
The first depends on what is actually true about the "retail orphans". From the FAQs that one MMOGULS member has posted:
This suggests that every SGW subscriber will be placed in the MLM structure.
However, I would not be all that concerned that as just a game subscriber, the Feds would come after you. But I imagine there will be recruiting/emails from your upline trying to get you to upgrade and get an MMOGULS membership.
On the second point quoted above, I saw one MMOGULS site that gave an April release, which of course is impossible. As I said earllier, CME is telling investors (there are apparently many small investors in the area who did so in a non-MMOGULS way--according to posts I've seen if accurate) that the game is being targeted at a Fall/Winter 2009 release. But if that's going to happen, they better restart beta real quick. Hmm, I wonder if "Winter 2009" includes 2010?
For grins and giggles, found this on the bulletin board at my local grocery store:
$1k/week with only two sign-ups? /snicker
It's disturbing how this affiliate is preying on fear of the economy and, indirectly, those who have the most to lose (poor/low income).
~Ripper
Wise but Cruel,
I had to log in and say that your signature is absolutely hilarious. =D Though I think the actual fumble rate is closer to 99% =P
oh, to be on-topic:
I can't believe you are all still grasping at such skinny straws in a vain attempt at making a bundle of kindling big enough to start a campfire.
Your facts are so off-base, and out there it's fairly impossible to talk any sense into you. I'm not going to try and be drawn into a long argument with you still ending up with the wrong conclusions. =D
Am I the only one that sees the irony in that statement? Also this is the "Rumour Room", facts aren't required only rumours like this one from the executive producer and screen writer of Stargate and consultant to CME,
On April the third Brad Wright gave an interview to an independent fansite (gateworld.net), where when asked about SGW he stated,
“We don’t know,” Wright told GateWorld, regarding the future of Stargate Worlds. “It’s a shame. If it doesn’t happen — and, let’s be honest, it should be happening now if it was happening. It’s a shame. It’s a terrible shame.
“They had an opportunity and they got our support, and they obviously had significant funding, and it didn’t happen. It’s kind of a drag for the fans and the time that we invested — what little of it there really was, in comparison to what they did — was still a shame that it was wasted, because it should have happened.”
Ineresting, no?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Rumour has it that CME didn't meet the last payroll and some have gone without their paycheck again. I believe it may have something to do with the recent audit done by MGM. Perhaps Whiting is going to have the license pulled and has decided to keep as much cash as possible? I hope this ends up with someone else taking on the license and finishing SGW and giving those DEVs a proper stable job.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis