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Lots of concern over death penalty

admriker4admriker4 Member Posts: 1,070

Over at the official STO site is a ton of concern over the death penalty. Its rumored to be ship loss but you keep all skills.

In one corner is 2 groups: those wanting a player run economy. To them obviously ship loss is a good thing. and there are the EVE players who say ship loss is what makes EVE a great game

In the other corner are 3 groups against ship loss: pvpers who say the risk will kill pvp. and the wow mmo players who are used to basically no death penalty. Also you have the trekkies who say its against cannon to lose a ship daily.

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=13495 

One dev posted that nothing was official yet so i figured the post would die but its still going strong. Honestly I was a little surprised over the amount of pvp concerns and ex-wow players firmly against a death penalty.

The post is a good way to see what kind of players the community will have possibly at launch. I guess I just assumed this game's community would be made up of mostly ex Star Wars Galaxies players and other mmo vet types.  Based on the responses, it would seem there are several who have never played an MMO or just WoW interested in STO.

There also seems to be a strong interest in pvp. I always thought of STO as a PvE game with some minor pvp skirmishes around. I personally will go klingon just so i be cloaked while exploring to avoid pvp when possible.

Anyway, very interesting to see who is following STO. Its certainly not the community I expected.

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Comments

  • PyscoJuggaloPyscoJuggalo Member UncommonPosts: 1,114

    If you are only going Klingon for cloak, then you don't have to.  I believe they said everyone will have cloak technology.

    Anyways...

    From what I got from Dev interviews is that they did not want to have a "death penalty that will take away the fun."  I don't remember which interview it was, but from what I got from the interview is that there is not going to likely be any form of a serious death penelty, let alone ship loss.

    Check in their news forum, I believe they have links to the interview there, maybe...

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    --When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii.
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    --CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.

  • kwoshkwosh Member Posts: 109

    For the life of me, I dont understand why people complain about death penalties...  you screwed up, you pay the price for your actions... every game should have penalties.. and i think they should be substantial..

    where there is risk there should be  a balance of  reward/[penalties...

    too many things today are way too easy.. YOU take the risk, and you should get what is coming to you..

    If I want to explore the galaxies, as they do in the fantasy/sci-fi realm I should be aware of where I am at.. If i am some noob starting out the penalties of coarse should be lesser.. but if i am some guy that has played awhile and venture farther out... I take the risk of losing my gear/ship...  this is IMO..  penalties should exist... when I started playing AC (asherons call) the penaltie is very steep (and should be)  if i die in some cave or dungeon. I have to go back to said dungeon/cave and get my belongings...  tired of the cry babies that want no penalties...  man up, suck it up   or leave the battle field....    cya out there   Kwosh

  • patrikd23patrikd23 Member UncommonPosts: 1,155

    Hurray for death penalty  !!  I like this game already :)

  • kwoshkwosh Member Posts: 109

    bumped

  • admriker4admriker4 Member Posts: 1,070

    up to 26 pages and most are against any kind of death penalty.

    To me this reflects a very dfferent kind of community over what I expected. I assumed a community of mostly vets from other MMO's. A very small amount of trekkies with no MMO experience. And finally a very small percent of wow gamers.

    The community in this post is made up of mostly wow gamers, trekkies, and eve players.

    The question then must be asked, is this an MMO with a star trek license or is this a Star Trek simulation ? 

  • ktanner3ktanner3 Member UncommonPosts: 4,061

    I think ship loss is more than fair. They already said you can keep more than one ship. So you can strategize accordingly. BAck when SWG had degrading of gear, I used to keep my best stuff in my backpack for PVP and my crappy stuff for grinding. And yes, it was great for the economy because it ran like an economy should.

    What do these people expect when you lose in space? Your frigging ship got blown up! You don't deserve to keep it after that. They should be thankful that no severe things like perma death happen to your character. Now that would really suck.

    Currently Playing: World of Warcraft

  • popinjaypopinjay Member Posts: 6,539

    I vote ship loss.


    Let's get some personal accountablity into characters again. I saw a nasty slide trending towards "easy mode" character maintainance the last few years.

    This also makes way more sense in a Star Trek setting. Fleets of ships would band for protection as they already do in all the series. Klingon bands, Starfleet bands, Romulan bands... this could start to smell very nice.

    I sure hope they don't cave...

  • firefly2003firefly2003 Member UncommonPosts: 2,527

    I hate it when people cry over losing pixels........ go play the other games left of this message then if you dont feel your life can handle such a tragic loss.....


  • admriker4admriker4 Member Posts: 1,070

    I also vote for ship loss.

    Nothing sucked more in a game like WoW where you would kill some hordie and 20 seconds later your forced to kill the same dam horde again. I remember some BG's where I would kill the same player 4 times but he'd just keep on coming back because there was no penalty. It gets very annoying.

    Whats rather upsetting is all of the posters over there that are strongly opposed to any death penalty. Ship loss is out of the question. Try and explain it helps create / maintain a player economy and the responses are who cares about a player economy.

    Cryptic says it wont have a severe death penalty but I suppose that could mean anything (depending on how they define severe).

    Permadeath is severe. WoW is a joke. Ship loss I feel would fall somewhere in between

  • popinjaypopinjay Member Posts: 6,539


    Originally posted by admriker4
    I also vote for ship loss.
    Nothing sucked more in a game like WoW where you would kill some hordie and 20 seconds later your forced to kill the same dam horde again. I remember some BG's where I would kill the same player 4 times but he'd just keep on coming back because there was no penalty. It gets very annoying.
    Whats rather upsetting is all of the posters over there that are strongly opposed to any death penalty. Ship loss is out of the question. Try and explain it helps create / maintain a player economy and the responses are who cares about a player economy.
    Cryptic says it wont have a severe death penalty but I suppose that could mean anything (depending on how they define severe).
    Permadeath is severe. WoW is a joke. Ship loss I feel would fall somewhere in between

    I agree there was no actual character death penalty in Wow, although there was a time penalty. If the guy you kept killing wanted to enter the battle, there was a respawn timer that increased in time. So the guy couldn't help his team if the battle was at a critical stage because he had to now wait an additional 30 seconds to respawn THEN run all the way back. By then it may have been too late for them to assist before you grab the flag or kill the king.

    A much newer game, Warhammer, went one step further jumping the shark. You kill a guy while attacking a keep, then in less than 15 seconds he's literally staring you back in the face, running back inside it. Battles there was like an assembly line of people running back in a row.

    Wow had an excuse I guess because that pvp was dated since four years ago. New games without real death penalties like Warhammer have no excuse whatsoever especially it being a PvP game, and these are the games we should be talking about. It's only four months old and they built a no penalty model at all into it, knowing how easy it was in Wow to do that and how much pvpers hated that.

    I give Wow a pass.. maybe Blizzard didn't know any better. Warhammer has no excuse whatsoever.

  • isolorisolor Member Posts: 189

    While I agree there should be a harsh death penalty, I just don't see it happening the way some here are asking for. (Losing your ship)

    The way Cryptic is talking about the economy, it won't support losing a ship. If you remember from any of the series, the Federation did not use any money. And Cryptic states that the economy will support this to a point. There will be bartering and trading, but for using money I don't think that will be there. So you will not be able to buy a new ship.

    In an interview at Skewed & Reviewed, Craig Zinkievich was asked:

    GVK: How will player deaths be handled in the game?

    CZ: We’re not ready to provide exact details, but the defeat penalty won’t be harsh. I think we’re past the days of outrageous death penalties in MMOs. People want to play and have fun.

    Now while it is still early in the development of the game and things could change, I just don't see any harsh penalties like losing your ship happening.

    Personally I'm glad I won't lose my ship. But I do feel just being able to respawn and get back into the fight is wrong.

    They can make you bring your ship to a ship yard, and wait for repairs, and not be able to grab another ship for a period of time. after all, your the captain of your ship, so you should be at the ship yard to oversee the repairs.

     

     

  • popinjaypopinjay Member Posts: 6,539


    Originally posted by isolor
    While I agree there should be a harsh death penalty, I just don't see it happening.
    The way Cryptic is talking about the economy, it won't support losing a ship. If you remember from any of the series, the Federation did not use any money. And Cryptic states that the economy will support this to a point. There will be bartering and trading, but for using money I don't think that will be there. So you will not be able to buy a new ship.
    In an interview at Skewed & Reviewed, Craig Zinkievich was asked:
    GVK: How will player deaths be handled in the game?
    CZ: We’re not ready to provide exact details, but the defeat penalty won’t be harsh. I think we’re past the days of outrageous death penalties in MMOs. People want to play and have fun.
    Now while it is still early in the development of the game and things could change, I just don't see any harsh penalties like losing your ship happening.
    Personally I'm glad I won't lose my ship. But I do feel just being able to respawn and get back into the fight is wrong.
    They can make you bring your ship to a ship yard, and wait for repairs, and not be able to grab another ship for a period of time. after all, your the captain of your ship, so you should be at the ship yard to oversee the repairs.
     

    This part is good enough for me. Penalties don't have to be insane (permadeath) they just have to be enough to discourage people from just jumping into the middle of 10 ships just for craps and chuckles, knowing they'll be right back.

    BTW: You are contradicting yourself above there. I think you mistyped something. :)

  • isolorisolor Member Posts: 189
    Originally posted by popinjay


     

    Originally posted by isolor

    While I agree there should be a harsh death penalty, I just don't see it happening.

    The way Cryptic is talking about the economy, it won't support losing a ship. If you remember from any of the series, the Federation did not use any money. And Cryptic states that the economy will support this to a point. There will be bartering and trading, but for using money I don't think that will be there. So you will not be able to buy a new ship.

    In an interview at Skewed & Reviewed, Craig Zinkievich was asked:

    GVK: How will player deaths be handled in the game?

    CZ: We’re not ready to provide exact details, but the defeat penalty won’t be harsh. I think we’re past the days of outrageous death penalties in MMOs. People want to play and have fun.

    Now while it is still early in the development of the game and things could change, I just don't see any harsh penalties like losing your ship happening.

    Personally I'm glad I won't lose my ship. But I do feel just being able to respawn and get back into the fight is wrong.

    They can make you bring your ship to a ship yard, and wait for repairs, and not be able to grab another ship for a period of time. after all, your the captain of your ship, so you should be at the ship yard to oversee the repairs.

     

     

     

    This part is good enough for me. Penalties don't have to be insane (permadeath) they just have to be enough to discourage people from just jumping into the middle of 10 ships just for craps and chuckles, knowing they'll be right back.

    BTW: You are contradicting yourself above there. I think you mistyped something. :)

    I don't think I contradicted my myself at all.

    Yes I would like a harsh penalty for losing (Death). But that does not really mean having to lose a ship.(Permadeath). Harsh can mean many things to may people. To me, not being able to get back to into the battle say over a planet  would be harsh, since it might have resources or maybe future allies for your faction. So losing a battle would be harsh. (my opinion)

    You should have to use resources/materials you gathered/traded for etc. to repair your ship, and these resourses/materials should be used in a ship yard/repair station and should take time to complete. This may have been resources you were saving up to either craft a new ship or modify the ship/ships you have. So for me that would be harsh, since we don't know yet how hard gathering/trading for these resources/materials will be.

    I do agree with your statement which is what I thought I was trying to say. You should not be able to respawn and start fighting right away. Or make it so like you said jumping in the middle of 10 ships knowing you can be right back.

    There a fair number of posts here saying that you should lose your ship. That is what a Harsh penalty should be. While I agree that there should be a harsh penalty, losing your ship should not be it. Like i said above Harsh means  different things to different people.

    So if you still think I am contradicting myself, please point it out.

    Edited for this. ( I see where my contradicting happened, and I will edit it.  )

     

  • ZebladeZeblade Member UncommonPosts: 931
    Originally posted by admriker4


    up to 26 pages and most are against any kind of death penalty.
    To me this reflects a very dfferent kind of community over what I expected. I assumed a community of mostly vets from other MMO's. A very small amount of trekkies with no MMO experience. And finally a very small percent of wow gamers.
    The community in this post is made up of mostly wow gamers, trekkies, and eve players.
    The question then must be asked, is this an MMO with a star trek license or is this a Star Trek simulation ? 

     

    Sorry but you have no  idea no clue as to who came from where or how long unless you just ask so please stop lol..

    Whats funny is they havent even said what there going to do.. not hing is set in stone the game comes out when? Wait till beta then start saying why you want or dislike death penalty.

  • admriker4admriker4 Member Posts: 1,070
    Originally posted by Zeblade

    Originally posted by admriker4


    up to 26 pages and most are against any kind of death penalty.
    To me this reflects a very dfferent kind of community over what I expected. I assumed a community of mostly vets from other MMO's. A very small amount of trekkies with no MMO experience. And finally a very small percent of wow gamers.
    The community in this post is made up of mostly wow gamers, trekkies, and eve players.
    The question then must be asked, is this an MMO with a star trek license or is this a Star Trek simulation ? 

     

    Sorry but you have no  idea no clue as to who came from where or how long unless you just ask so please stop lol..

    Whats funny is they havent even said what there going to do.. not hing is set in stone the game comes out when? Wait till beta then start saying why you want or dislike death penalty.



     

    Umm actually I do. The posters over there state "im from wow and ship loss would suck" or "I played EVE and ship loss is awesome"

    You can get an idea of who is interested (and where they come from) in STO from that thread

  • AlienovrlordAlienovrlord Member Posts: 1,525

    Interesting.   I'd like to hear what they decide to do as far as this goes. 

  • ktanner3ktanner3 Member UncommonPosts: 4,061
    Originally posted by Zeblade

    Originally posted by admriker4


    up to 26 pages and most are against any kind of death penalty.
    To me this reflects a very dfferent kind of community over what I expected. I assumed a community of mostly vets from other MMO's. A very small amount of trekkies with no MMO experience. And finally a very small percent of wow gamers.
    The community in this post is made up of mostly wow gamers, trekkies, and eve players.
    The question then must be asked, is this an MMO with a star trek license or is this a Star Trek simulation ? 

     

    Sorry but you have no  idea no clue as to who came from where or how long unless you just ask so please stop lol..

    Whats funny is they havent even said what there going to do.. not hing is set in stone the game comes out when? Wait till beta then start saying why you want or dislike death penalty.

    Yes, actually you can tell where people come from because there is a thread in that very forum asking what MMOs they have tried.

    Wait until they announce before commenting? Then what would be the point? It would be a dead issue at that point. If the DEVS announce that the game has a ship loss, that will be it. There will be no going back. The DEVS don't come off as WOW chasers like the ones SWG had so I doubt you'll see a huge change on that scale.Part of the point of talking about a game before it's released is speculating on what might happen. What else is there to talk about?

     

    Currently Playing: World of Warcraft

  • JoliustJoliust Member Posts: 1,329

    Too often people don't know what they want. Just don't go into situations where there is a good chance of losing the ship. Without a penalty like that you don't have the incentive to really think out what your going to do. Also when things get really close it's exciting as hell.

    Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.

  • ktanner3ktanner3 Member UncommonPosts: 4,061

    Since I'm not allowed to say this over there I'll state it here. There are far too many  wussies on that site. Don't understand the concept of "risk vs reward", they're only experience with interdependency is EVE, which colors their perception and want everything handed to them on a silver platter like in WOW. And if you use a hint of a harsh tone with them, they go crying to the mods. I sure hope that isn't the community I have to deal with in game.

    Currently Playing: World of Warcraft

  • kezya123kezya123 Member Posts: 23

    rofl, the fact that they even include death penalty..

    ______________________________________________________________________________

    "Astronomy compels the soul to look upwards and lead us from this world to another." — Plato.
    ______________________________________________________________________________

  • noblotnoblot Member Posts: 287

    Death penalty and RvR/PvP are not compatable. There can be a time/distance penalty but players are used to not lossing stuff. Does raise the interesting question of rezzing "ship" in the middle of a battle :)

    Personally I am not concerned, the vast majory of players (hence customers) are dead against it, so to speak. Therefore, it is unlikely that a game aimed at the majority of causual gamers and Star Trek lovers is going to put such a major dampner on any PvP/RvR.

    Are there go reasons for putting in Death Penalties, certainly; and these can even create a good game. However, does it add to the fun? Well I would argue that charging into impossible fights is what makes PvP fun; and that does not happen if you lose your level 50 Star Ship (=6 months of causual game play).

  • admriker4admriker4 Member Posts: 1,070
    Originally posted by noblot


    Death penalty and RvR/PvP are not compatable. There can be a time/distance penalty but players are used to not lossing stuff. Does raise the interesting question of rezzing "ship" in the middle of a battle :)
    Personally I am not concerned, the vast majory of players (hence customers) are dead against it, so to speak. Therefore, it is unlikely that a game aimed at the majority of causual gamers and Star Trek lovers is going to put such a major dampner on any PvP/RvR.
    Are there go reasons for putting in Death Penalties, certainly; and these can even create a good game. However, does it add to the fun? Well I would argue that charging into impossible fights is what makes PvP fun; and that does not happen if you lose your level 50 Star Ship (=6 months of causual game play).



     

    The people against it are not the target market for this game. This isnt a RvR / PvP focused game nor is it designed for the wow crowd.

  • MosfetMosfet Member CommonPosts: 125

    If you look at the shows there arent alot of ships getting blowed up. Severely damaged yes but not destroyed. So maybe a system where your ship gets alot of damage and you have to repair it at a starbase for a cost. In the shows they also seem to be able to make hotfixes to the ships even when they are pretty banged up so maybe you can temp fix your ship and get outa the hotspot to the nearest base.

    "Captains log: This is Captain Kirk on the starship Enterprise T. I was grinding Gorn in sector M4 when a mob of Romulans popped up, lost my ship again."       ... that just sounds so wrong.

    "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand alloys and compositions and things with... molecular structures."

  • PunisherXPunisherX Member Posts: 231

    I'm hoping for something related to COH/COV because the only real penalty in that was that you traveled half-way across the map... sometimes. If it has to be a little worse, then I'd go with the WoW penalty of 75% loss of all your stats for 10 minutes. But I do not want to lose ships, and I don't think that Cryptic is gonna have that as their penalty because they said they want to make it fun and to canon. That penalty fits neither of those descriptions.

  • BarCrowBarCrow Member UncommonPosts: 2,195

    I think the death penalty should be realistic. If you get beamed off or shuttled out before your ship blows up ...then great...Not canon?...I don't understand this thinking.  The novels/comics/movies/tv series are full of destroyed ships...not the main characters/ships usually...but this is a Star Trek Universe Online game.There were probably Starfleet vessels getting reamed up and down,..while Kirk saves his ship from The Squire of Gothos.At least there should be in a living universe...if not on the screen then behind the scenes.That's why I don't like the "everyones a captain and has a ship" idea...this sucks..what if i don't want to be a captain. What if I want to be a med officer or science officer..or work the ship cantina. Being a captain should be earned..this sounds like a Star Trek : You Be the Star MMO....Captain should be a special breed.....parallel this to the way Jedi was and what it became in SWG. It just kills the game ..imo. At least that's the way the game sounded to me...they're even making it in a more war-torn era..but not allowing ships to be destroyed...that would be lame.  A good crew working together with a good captain..will save a ship most times. I just don't want  SpaceWOW. My opinions are based on scatterings of posts..interviews and articles i've read...but not too recently...please educate me if things have changed.

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