In the case of RAIDING gear,it is the biggest joke going,you could literally stand in the corner picking your nose,then just lot on the drop and walk around wearing that item,you did nothing to earn.A team of 30/40/50 can easily leave 5 players standing on the sidelines doing nothing.Make raiding ONLY 6 player groups ,that way you know there was a pretty darn good chance EVERY player EARNED the kill and the drops.
This is also what came to mind for me. During my stint in WoW I had the option to pay a raid guild to take me along and just loot the gear I wanted, assuming it dropped. All I had to do was sit somewhere in a corner, out of their way and harms way so that they could burn through the encounter and add another 500+ gold to their coffers.
I thought this was a lazy thing and it cheapened the work that went into making a game. Nowadays it's not about challenge anymore but about being rewarded even if you don't deserve it.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
Something I would like ot see in games is every ten levels you have to pass a test on your character's race and class........The questions can be about what do certain spells do, what bonuses does your race get, what spell is used to help with aggro, etc etc etc.......Gear has nothing to do with knowing your class at all....heck I remember playing EQ wit ha Druid who had time gear (when Pop was latest expansion) and he didnt even know what SoW did........Gear is a reflection that either the player has/buys alot of gold or he has alot of time to do the raids to get the gear.......Most of the time when I see players that have to have the best gear it tells me that they arent the best players because they need every advantage they can get.
This is a quote I pulled from a friend who plays WoW. That mentallity right there, is what is wrong with current mmos. Gear SHOULD NOT make the player, how well you know your class should. Yes you should be rewaded for your time invested however, gear upgrades should be a perk. You must know your class first before you obtain the gear! Not the opposite. Bah, this mentallity gets on my nerves! Where oh were is the next gen EQ?
First of all ,i hate to admit but gear does make your class,NOT the player.I am not saying there are not real bad players,but the MAJORITY,will with very little effort learn there class and how it works,the rest is already pre fabbed skills/spells /abilities,the player does not make that part of the game nor do they make the gear.
Now players do of course get there gear,through various means,the problem si that ,it does NOT show the true player,why?Well first off in a game like WOW there is tons of bought ACCOUNTS,TONS of RMT activity,it is the largest game for RMT activity by a mile.My point here is that unless a game makes it so you totally earn the items your self,make you earn them some way,and they cannot be tradeable,then it means nothing.
There is another side to it as well,KNOWING your gear and your player is as simple as looking on your local website.It does not take long and the majority will know what gear works and what is a waste of time.
The player would also have to know the games combat formulas,without knowing,just means you are most likely following what everyone else says or what everyone else is wearing.
Then there is the elistist approach to there game,one witch can exist in FFXI,because there whole combat system blows the doors off anything WOW and it's clones can muster up.What the top players or the ones that can afford to do is,they carry several types of gear and macro it all in different situations.A simple PAladin can have 3 sets of gear,damage/defense and Weapon Skills,and most macro in refreshing gear to speed up hp and mp regeneration,so you can see there is a lot more to gear than meets the eye.I have even gone one step further by macroing in gear for RANGED attacks,that is a big one many use as well.It is more a case as i said of knowing the game,NOT your player.IN case of FFXI ranged attack is pretty much the most powerful normal damage in the game,without using up MP.
I can show how FFXI is even a further advanced game than most>>>FOOD ! food can change your whole gear setup,if using DMG food then you may need accy gear and if using accy food,then you want dmg gear,or maybe you are under skilled and need all out accy gear.Can you tell in this case just by looking at there gear,if they are equipped properly?NO way,this is why gear does not always show others that you know your player.
IMO the REAL truth players like to talk gear,is BRAGGING rights,they want to show off.I will always show more respect to team players ,and show almost none to those that are "LOOK AT ME".The gear will not change that focus one bit.
In the case of RAIDING gear,it is the biggest joke going,you could literally stand in the corner picking your nose,then just lot on the drop and walk around wearing that item,you did nothing to earn.A team of 30/40/50 can easily leave 5 players standing on the sidelines doing nothing.Make raiding ONLY 6 player groups ,that way you know there was a pretty darn good chance EVERY player EARNED the kill and the drops.
I guess I read that statement to mean wearing the wrong gear for your class (assuming you aren't RPGing) shows you don't know your class. DPS with added strength, tanks with mana regen, etc. Imagine a tank showing up in priests robes? I've seen in WoW hunters with obvious druid stats, but its mail, right? /sigh
Now if he meant the gear you get from grinding arenas, raids, bgs, etc., is the definition of how well you know your class . . . that is truly what is wrong with MMO's.
But frm the OP, how do you 'prove' you know your class? Have level tests? You must be able to accomplish x to 'prove' you know how to play a rogue, tank, etc? What?
Biggest problem with the WoW mentality is if you can't/don't level to max in 2-3 weeks you're a noob or loser - as how else can you stand around talking about how bored you are and running/grinding the same stuff for the next couple years waiting on an expansion? End game is not the game and you can't get that past most MMO, specifcially WoW players.
I think there two different scenarios regarding this and I have a different view depending on which particular case this statement is in reference to.
If you are solo playing or doing activities that are not gear dependent then you should wear whatever you want, it's not having an impact on anyone else's gaming experience so it's none of their business.
If you have been invited to perform a specific role in a group activity and that activity is made much easier by having a particular gear setup or spec then you should make the effort to bring the proper tools for the job. Not doing so is selfish in my opinion as you making the activity much harder or impossible for the other people so are wasting their time. You wouldn't go to a football match wearing cricket gear as you would suck so why do it in a game?
In either case I don't necessarily think that this would mean that you don't know your class but not bringing the proper tools for the job in group play is disrespectful to the other players. If games were designed so it had no impact on winning or losing it wouldn't matter but unfortunately in a lot of games it does.
Originally posted by Ziboo But frm the OP, how do you 'prove' you know your class? Have level tests? You must be able to accomplish x to 'prove' you know how to play a rogue, tank, etc? What? Biggest problem with the WoW mentality is if you can't/don't level to max in 2-3 weeks you're a noob or loser - as how else can you stand around talking about how bored you are and running/grinding the same stuff for the next couple years waiting on an expansion? End game is not the game and you can't get that past most MMO, specifcially WoW players.
"How does one prove you know your class?"
That is a very legit question but I think I can answer that pretty easily.
A) Understanding what each ability can do in certian situations and what abilities to use and don't use. As well in situations where it doesn't favor sucesses.
Usually each class will have its main archetype and a secondary role. Know both of them well in solo and group play.
C) Usually if the game has a good community more than likely it will have an abundant source of good players. And people who play the same class as you can see your flaws and will give advice how to correct them. Usually good players will group with good players and from the community stand point you will see that. And usually when they commend you on your skills that could also very well be a answer.
D) One can argue by the progression you have done. With common sense if I seen a bard that finished Plane of Time in EQ when PoP was the latest expansion I assumed that he was a decent-good player which would inform of knowing his class.
***Here is an example of knowing your class***
I played a wizard in EQ. The main purpose for a wizard was to do massive amount of damage, conserve mana and not pull aggro. I knew what nukes I would use in certian situations such as what percentage of life the mob was at that moment. When to cast concussion. As well when to evac when needed. Sometimes I would have a rhythm of when to cast and what not. To tell if you were an elite wizard you would accidently port the group to north karana instead of PoK =D.
The Biggest Problem in WoW...
There are many problems with that game...however from what you said, that is a stupid assumption for those WoW players to say such a thing. That is because the game is easier than coloring in the lines of a coloring book. I know a handfull of decent wow players who see the flaws who claim that WoW was their first mmo.
Seriously, give me an example of one game where it takes time to "know your class".
I'm sort-of new to MMO's (wasn't around in the golden age UO/EQ days), but every game I've played so far--and I've played everything recent--I've been able to "master" my class and know everything about them within the first hour of playing.
This is a quote I pulled from a friend who plays WoW. That mentallity right there, is what is wrong with current mmos. Gear SHOULD NOT make the player, how well you know your class should. Yes you should be rewaded for your time invested however, gear upgrades should be a perk. You must know your class first before you obtain the gear! Not the opposite. Bah, this mentallity gets on my nerves! Where oh were is the next gen EQ?
What did you expect from someone who plays World of Gearcraft. 100% of the game revolves around gear and nothing else.
Now...Now.. to be fair EQ was very gear dependent after Luclin dropped.
However the environment was such that even with good gear fakers were divulged in short order. In groups and raids you were challenged, rage building, tanking, off tanking, mezz parking, timed heals, etc were skills you couldn't fake your way through.
There were nights I wanted to reach through the monitor slapping high fives to my group. Yea some of the S!@T we faced in places like Maidens Eye, Plane Of Fire & Rift Seekers was that raw. I just can't convey the feeling of surviving certain death via strategy & skills.
Don't get me wrong I've had some great times in more recent titles (EQII, WOW, L2, LOTRO) for sure but the sense of danger & accomplishment wasn't the same.
<<<Seriously, give me an example of one game where it takes time to "know your class".
I'm sort-of new to MMO's (wasn't around in the golden age UO/EQ days), but every game I've played so far--and I've played everything recent--I've been able to "master" my class and know everything about them within the first hour of playing.>>>
That's amazing, I've played six or so different MMO's in the past year and while the main 'class' is evident (tank, heals, dps, cc/support), mastering all the abilities for each takes me a bit longer than an hour! Especially as I enjoy PvP and need to know what to use against each other class and what they're using against me.
WoW is fairly straightforward, but blowing all your cooldowns at the wrong time, going oom, etc., in pvp and even some pve. Even playing a hunter vs huntard in WoW knowing when/how to chain trap, kite, etc., not all of WoW is face rolling the keyboard to be uber.
WAR just today, I played against a super healer on the other side that took full advantage of terrain and distance (150 heal distance) and really knew how to heal, didn't run/healed her team and herself,and took a bit of work to take down considering the PUG I was in ignored her and targeted the tank/dps instead.
EQ2 has heroic opportunities that take some timing to get right, especially in a group. As one poster mentioned knowing when to evac, feign death, etc., can make the difference between a complete wipe, etc.
Seriously, give me an example of one game where it takes time to "know your class". I'm sort-of new to MMO's (wasn't around in the golden age UO/EQ days), but every game I've played so far--and I've played everything recent--I've been able to "master" my class and know everything about them within the first hour of playing.
I think that WoW gives us a good example of how really knowing your class does take time and effort, but really knowing your class isn't necessary for most play situations.
Recently I played a WoW trial with my old toons, who had in the time I was away all had their talents modified. I didn't even BOTHER to train talents on my gnome 'lock and I was taking out same level PvE content with very little danger of death. Multiple adds were not a problem. Same was true for my druid, my warrior, and even my mage.
Now, of course, if I were to be engaging in arena/PvP action I'd be a fool not to have every possible advantage before doing so, but for most PvE, if you've got the basics down, and it only takes as Korby said, an hour or so to get them down, you'll do just fine. The more subtle aspects of each class are just not crucial to success when engaging in leveling/questing.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Seriously, give me an example of one game where it takes time to "know your class". I'm sort-of new to MMO's (wasn't around in the golden age UO/EQ days), but every game I've played so far--and I've played everything recent--I've been able to "master" my class and know everything about them within the first hour of playing.
I think that WoW gives us a good example of how really knowing your class does take time and effort, but really knowing your class isn't necessary for most play situations.
Recently I played a WoW trial with my old toons, who had in the time I was away all had their talents modified. I didn't even BOTHER to train talents on my gnome 'lock and I was taking out same level PvE content with very little danger of death. Multiple adds were not a problem. Same was true for my druid, my warrior, and even my mage.
Now, of course, if I were to be engaging in arena/PvP action I'd be a fool not to have every possible advantage before doing so, but for most PvE, if you've got the basics down, and it only takes as Korby said, an hour or so to get them down, you'll do just fine. The more subtle aspects of each class are just not crucial to success when engaging in leveling/questing.
Counter-example:
I went to my friends house and tried his level 70 character (I had only played WoW for a few minutes and got to level 4 on my own).
After 30 minutes of "practicing" in a raid with real life buddies, I was owning people in arena.
Seriously, give me an example of one game where it takes time to "know your class". I'm sort-of new to MMO's (wasn't around in the golden age UO/EQ days), but every game I've played so far--and I've played everything recent--I've been able to "master" my class and know everything about them within the first hour of playing.
I think that WoW gives us a good example of how really knowing your class does take time and effort, but really knowing your class isn't necessary for most play situations.
Recently I played a WoW trial with my old toons, who had in the time I was away all had their talents modified. I didn't even BOTHER to train talents on my gnome 'lock and I was taking out same level PvE content with very little danger of death. Multiple adds were not a problem. Same was true for my druid, my warrior, and even my mage.
Now, of course, if I were to be engaging in arena/PvP action I'd be a fool not to have every possible advantage before doing so, but for most PvE, if you've got the basics down, and it only takes as Korby said, an hour or so to get them down, you'll do just fine. The more subtle aspects of each class are just not crucial to success when engaging in leveling/questing.
Counter-example:
I went to my friends house and tried his level 70 character (I had only played WoW for a few minutes and got to level 4 on my own).
After 30 minutes of "practicing" in a raid with real life buddies, I was owning people in arena.
You know, I don't really doubt this for a moment, Korby.
I suspect you're a pretty observant individual and latched on to nuance pretty fast, though.
It's a matter of figuring out (and it doesn't take long to do this) the basic moves of each class. For a mage, it's hit the target with high dps, then a snare, then another high dps, then a root, back off, and then more dps.
WIth a 'lock or a hunter, it's send in the tank and start doing your DPS.
With a druid, you've got a number of choices...you can play it like a mage or priest, a warrior, or a rogue.
Or all three in various combinations.
WIth a warrior, it's charge in and start wailing away with debuffs and dps, and watch the AOE if other mobs are nearby.
With a rogue it's get in there with your surprise attack, sap as needed to buy time, then hit them with your DPS moves.
The key thing is to get down the basic three or four attacks of the class, and then you can start playing with all the secondary things. But you really only need those basic moves for most PvE, and they don't take long to learn...if your paying attention, of course, which some players DO NOT DO.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
I love the blanket "EQ players > WoW players" crap. That settles the argument then doesn't it. You must have been captain of your debate team. Good day.
You know, you do have a legit reason to say that because I did not explain my self. However I just decided to take the wow road and be lazy and just say that. Waterlily has a great explaination.
im sure if the NEW gear that has slightly (almost insignificant) higher stats and it looked like a textureless cube they would still wear it. and when you wear the whole set you look like cubeman. with 1% more (insert perk) than the previous armour. this is what MMOGs have becomes and the big companies are seing this and saying " well if thats what they want... lets give it to them but lets make better graphics that no computer on the market can play it at max." for them numbers say what people want, not fan forums. i see here 977 974 members, (say 1 million) and wow has 10 million... there you go we know what people want. what hapened to the good old days where games where made to be inovative with quality over quantity anarchy online, Ultima online, EQ1 where the best games that ive played EVER... and i would still chose them over AoC, WoW, WAR and the new generation of games
guess ill stick with my EVE online till darkfall or something else comes by... (Huxley looks good too)
Yep so many people complained about the way the armour looks when it was released yet everyone wants to get it for the 1337 stats. They could name the armour set and print the pharse all over it "I HAVE NO LIFE" and if it had the best stats everyone would still ware it. Ive put my wow account kind of on hold because of this. I rather level in LOTRO without as many assholes and enjoy the world. On christmas I was doing the cookies quest and because the last time I had bought ice cold milk was last christmas I forgot it came from a innkeeper. One guy msg when I asked in a trade called me a F-ing idiot since i was a 70 then put me on ignore lol. I just don't want to put up with shit like that and the gear grind so Im going with LOTRO right and haven't meet a rude person at all. Though Im sure Ill meet a few not all games are free of them.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day. And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
I picked up a buddy key from a friend for LOTRO and found the community pretty good. Most if not all were helpfull and willing to explain things no matter how absurd the question might seem.
I was trying out the trade skills and started asking around for some advice and got about 20 minutes worth of explanations on what does what and how to do some of the things. I even got free materials even though I specifically told them I was on a trial account and was just trying to experience some of the parts of the game.
I don't think something like that will ever happen in WoW. I'm not saying that WoW is totaly devoid of nice people it's just that they have turned their chats off because of the other 99% of the community and wouldn't have seen my questions when I asked them.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
In one of my gaming classes, we had to debate a topic, and I chose this one. There were 20 people in class and 17 of them played wow for a while and/or still playing it. And only 1 person in the whole class agreed that gear does not show how well you know your class. Bah, why do people still think about this garbage.
Anyways...
I wonder what will subsitute gear and state upgrades? Why are so many games going gear oriented? Especially the theme park ones!
Comments
This is also what came to mind for me. During my stint in WoW I had the option to pay a raid guild to take me along and just loot the gear I wanted, assuming it dropped. All I had to do was sit somewhere in a corner, out of their way and harms way so that they could burn through the encounter and add another 500+ gold to their coffers.
I thought this was a lazy thing and it cheapened the work that went into making a game. Nowadays it's not about challenge anymore but about being rewarded even if you don't deserve it.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
Something I would like ot see in games is every ten levels you have to pass a test on your character's race and class........The questions can be about what do certain spells do, what bonuses does your race get, what spell is used to help with aggro, etc etc etc.......Gear has nothing to do with knowing your class at all....heck I remember playing EQ wit ha Druid who had time gear (when Pop was latest expansion) and he didnt even know what SoW did........Gear is a reflection that either the player has/buys alot of gold or he has alot of time to do the raids to get the gear.......Most of the time when I see players that have to have the best gear it tells me that they arent the best players because they need every advantage they can get.
Mark Twain is also a mason, so I don't listen to masons..
First of all ,i hate to admit but gear does make your class,NOT the player.I am not saying there are not real bad players,but the MAJORITY,will with very little effort learn there class and how it works,the rest is already pre fabbed skills/spells /abilities,the player does not make that part of the game nor do they make the gear.
Now players do of course get there gear,through various means,the problem si that ,it does NOT show the true player,why?Well first off in a game like WOW there is tons of bought ACCOUNTS,TONS of RMT activity,it is the largest game for RMT activity by a mile.My point here is that unless a game makes it so you totally earn the items your self,make you earn them some way,and they cannot be tradeable,then it means nothing.
There is another side to it as well,KNOWING your gear and your player is as simple as looking on your local website.It does not take long and the majority will know what gear works and what is a waste of time.
The player would also have to know the games combat formulas,without knowing,just means you are most likely following what everyone else says or what everyone else is wearing.
Then there is the elistist approach to there game,one witch can exist in FFXI,because there whole combat system blows the doors off anything WOW and it's clones can muster up.What the top players or the ones that can afford to do is,they carry several types of gear and macro it all in different situations.A simple PAladin can have 3 sets of gear,damage/defense and Weapon Skills,and most macro in refreshing gear to speed up hp and mp regeneration,so you can see there is a lot more to gear than meets the eye.I have even gone one step further by macroing in gear for RANGED attacks,that is a big one many use as well.It is more a case as i said of knowing the game,NOT your player.IN case of FFXI ranged attack is pretty much the most powerful normal damage in the game,without using up MP.
I can show how FFXI is even a further advanced game than most>>>FOOD ! food can change your whole gear setup,if using DMG food then you may need accy gear and if using accy food,then you want dmg gear,or maybe you are under skilled and need all out accy gear.Can you tell in this case just by looking at there gear,if they are equipped properly?NO way,this is why gear does not always show others that you know your player.
IMO the REAL truth players like to talk gear,is BRAGGING rights,they want to show off.I will always show more respect to team players ,and show almost none to those that are "LOOK AT ME".The gear will not change that focus one bit.
In the case of RAIDING gear,it is the biggest joke going,you could literally stand in the corner picking your nose,then just lot on the drop and walk around wearing that item,you did nothing to earn.A team of 30/40/50 can easily leave 5 players standing on the sidelines doing nothing.Make raiding ONLY 6 player groups ,that way you know there was a pretty darn good chance EVERY player EARNED the kill and the drops.
Great post.
I guess I read that statement to mean wearing the wrong gear for your class (assuming you aren't RPGing) shows you don't know your class. DPS with added strength, tanks with mana regen, etc. Imagine a tank showing up in priests robes? I've seen in WoW hunters with obvious druid stats, but its mail, right? /sigh
Now if he meant the gear you get from grinding arenas, raids, bgs, etc., is the definition of how well you know your class . . . that is truly what is wrong with MMO's.
But frm the OP, how do you 'prove' you know your class? Have level tests? You must be able to accomplish x to 'prove' you know how to play a rogue, tank, etc? What?
Biggest problem with the WoW mentality is if you can't/don't level to max in 2-3 weeks you're a noob or loser - as how else can you stand around talking about how bored you are and running/grinding the same stuff for the next couple years waiting on an expansion? End game is not the game and you can't get that past most MMO, specifcially WoW players.
Proud member of Hammerfist Clan Gaming Community.
Currently playing: RIFT, EQ2, WoW, LoTRO
Retired: Warhammer, AoC, EQ
Waiting: SWToR & GW2
I think there two different scenarios regarding this and I have a different view depending on which particular case this statement is in reference to.
If you are solo playing or doing activities that are not gear dependent then you should wear whatever you want, it's not having an impact on anyone else's gaming experience so it's none of their business.
If you have been invited to perform a specific role in a group activity and that activity is made much easier by having a particular gear setup or spec then you should make the effort to bring the proper tools for the job. Not doing so is selfish in my opinion as you making the activity much harder or impossible for the other people so are wasting their time. You wouldn't go to a football match wearing cricket gear as you would suck so why do it in a game?
In either case I don't necessarily think that this would mean that you don't know your class but not bringing the proper tools for the job in group play is disrespectful to the other players. If games were designed so it had no impact on winning or losing it wouldn't matter but unfortunately in a lot of games it does.
"How does one prove you know your class?"
That is a very legit question but I think I can answer that pretty easily.
A) Understanding what each ability can do in certian situations and what abilities to use and don't use. As well in situations where it doesn't favor sucesses.
C) Usually if the game has a good community more than likely it will have an abundant source of good players. And people who play the same class as you can see your flaws and will give advice how to correct them. Usually good players will group with good players and from the community stand point you will see that. And usually when they commend you on your skills that could also very well be a answer.
D) One can argue by the progression you have done. With common sense if I seen a bard that finished Plane of Time in EQ when PoP was the latest expansion I assumed that he was a decent-good player which would inform of knowing his class.
***Here is an example of knowing your class***
I played a wizard in EQ. The main purpose for a wizard was to do massive amount of damage, conserve mana and not pull aggro. I knew what nukes I would use in certian situations such as what percentage of life the mob was at that moment. When to cast concussion. As well when to evac when needed. Sometimes I would have a rhythm of when to cast and what not. To tell if you were an elite wizard you would accidently port the group to north karana instead of PoK =D.
The Biggest Problem in WoW...
There are many problems with that game...however from what you said, that is a stupid assumption for those WoW players to say such a thing. That is because the game is easier than coloring in the lines of a coloring book. I know a handfull of decent wow players who see the flaws who claim that WoW was their first mmo.
Seriously, give me an example of one game where it takes time to "know your class".
I'm sort-of new to MMO's (wasn't around in the golden age UO/EQ days), but every game I've played so far--and I've played everything recent--I've been able to "master" my class and know everything about them within the first hour of playing.
What did you expect from someone who plays World of Gearcraft. 100% of the game revolves around gear and nothing else.
Now...Now.. to be fair EQ was very gear dependent after Luclin dropped.
However the environment was such that even with good gear fakers were divulged in short order. In groups and raids you were challenged, rage building, tanking, off tanking, mezz parking, timed heals, etc were skills you couldn't fake your way through.
There were nights I wanted to reach through the monitor slapping high fives to my group. Yea some of the S!@T we faced in places like Maidens Eye, Plane Of Fire & Rift Seekers was that raw. I just can't convey the feeling of surviving certain death via strategy & skills.
Don't get me wrong I've had some great times in more recent titles (EQII, WOW, L2, LOTRO) for sure but the sense of danger & accomplishment wasn't the same.
Dutchess Zarraa Voltayre
Reborn/Zero Sum/Ancient Legacy/Jagged Legion/Feared/Nuke & Pave.
<<<Seriously, give me an example of one game where it takes time to "know your class".
I'm sort-of new to MMO's (wasn't around in the golden age UO/EQ days), but every game I've played so far--and I've played everything recent--I've been able to "master" my class and know everything about them within the first hour of playing.>>>
That's amazing, I've played six or so different MMO's in the past year and while the main 'class' is evident (tank, heals, dps, cc/support), mastering all the abilities for each takes me a bit longer than an hour! Especially as I enjoy PvP and need to know what to use against each other class and what they're using against me.
WoW is fairly straightforward, but blowing all your cooldowns at the wrong time, going oom, etc., in pvp and even some pve. Even playing a hunter vs huntard in WoW knowing when/how to chain trap, kite, etc., not all of WoW is face rolling the keyboard to be uber.
WAR just today, I played against a super healer on the other side that took full advantage of terrain and distance (150 heal distance) and really knew how to heal, didn't run/healed her team and herself,and took a bit of work to take down considering the PUG I was in ignored her and targeted the tank/dps instead.
EQ2 has heroic opportunities that take some timing to get right, especially in a group. As one poster mentioned knowing when to evac, feign death, etc., can make the difference between a complete wipe, etc.
Proud member of Hammerfist Clan Gaming Community.
Currently playing: RIFT, EQ2, WoW, LoTRO
Retired: Warhammer, AoC, EQ
Waiting: SWToR & GW2
Well there's also reading guides while the game is downloading--but still it's too easy these days.
I think that WoW gives us a good example of how really knowing your class does take time and effort, but really knowing your class isn't necessary for most play situations.
Recently I played a WoW trial with my old toons, who had in the time I was away all had their talents modified. I didn't even BOTHER to train talents on my gnome 'lock and I was taking out same level PvE content with very little danger of death. Multiple adds were not a problem. Same was true for my druid, my warrior, and even my mage.
Now, of course, if I were to be engaging in arena/PvP action I'd be a fool not to have every possible advantage before doing so, but for most PvE, if you've got the basics down, and it only takes as Korby said, an hour or so to get them down, you'll do just fine. The more subtle aspects of each class are just not crucial to success when engaging in leveling/questing.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
I think that WoW gives us a good example of how really knowing your class does take time and effort, but really knowing your class isn't necessary for most play situations.
Recently I played a WoW trial with my old toons, who had in the time I was away all had their talents modified. I didn't even BOTHER to train talents on my gnome 'lock and I was taking out same level PvE content with very little danger of death. Multiple adds were not a problem. Same was true for my druid, my warrior, and even my mage.
Now, of course, if I were to be engaging in arena/PvP action I'd be a fool not to have every possible advantage before doing so, but for most PvE, if you've got the basics down, and it only takes as Korby said, an hour or so to get them down, you'll do just fine. The more subtle aspects of each class are just not crucial to success when engaging in leveling/questing.
Counter-example:
I went to my friends house and tried his level 70 character (I had only played WoW for a few minutes and got to level 4 on my own).
After 30 minutes of "practicing" in a raid with real life buddies, I was owning people in arena.
I think that WoW gives us a good example of how really knowing your class does take time and effort, but really knowing your class isn't necessary for most play situations.
Recently I played a WoW trial with my old toons, who had in the time I was away all had their talents modified. I didn't even BOTHER to train talents on my gnome 'lock and I was taking out same level PvE content with very little danger of death. Multiple adds were not a problem. Same was true for my druid, my warrior, and even my mage.
Now, of course, if I were to be engaging in arena/PvP action I'd be a fool not to have every possible advantage before doing so, but for most PvE, if you've got the basics down, and it only takes as Korby said, an hour or so to get them down, you'll do just fine. The more subtle aspects of each class are just not crucial to success when engaging in leveling/questing.
Counter-example:
I went to my friends house and tried his level 70 character (I had only played WoW for a few minutes and got to level 4 on my own).
After 30 minutes of "practicing" in a raid with real life buddies, I was owning people in arena.
You know, I don't really doubt this for a moment, Korby.
I suspect you're a pretty observant individual and latched on to nuance pretty fast, though.
It's a matter of figuring out (and it doesn't take long to do this) the basic moves of each class. For a mage, it's hit the target with high dps, then a snare, then another high dps, then a root, back off, and then more dps.
WIth a 'lock or a hunter, it's send in the tank and start doing your DPS.
With a druid, you've got a number of choices...you can play it like a mage or priest, a warrior, or a rogue.
Or all three in various combinations.
WIth a warrior, it's charge in and start wailing away with debuffs and dps, and watch the AOE if other mobs are nearby.
With a rogue it's get in there with your surprise attack, sap as needed to buy time, then hit them with your DPS moves.
The key thing is to get down the basic three or four attacks of the class, and then you can start playing with all the secondary things. But you really only need those basic moves for most PvE, and they don't take long to learn...if your paying attention, of course, which some players DO NOT DO.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
You know, you do have a legit reason to say that because I did not explain my self. However I just decided to take the wow road and be lazy and just say that. Waterlily has a great explaination.
We are in agreement.
Yep so many people complained about the way the armour looks when it was released yet everyone wants to get it for the 1337 stats. They could name the armour set and print the pharse all over it "I HAVE NO LIFE" and if it had the best stats everyone would still ware it. Ive put my wow account kind of on hold because of this. I rather level in LOTRO without as many assholes and enjoy the world. On christmas I was doing the cookies quest and because the last time I had bought ice cold milk was last christmas I forgot it came from a innkeeper. One guy msg when I asked in a trade called me a F-ing idiot since i was a 70 then put me on ignore lol. I just don't want to put up with shit like that and the gear grind so Im going with LOTRO right and haven't meet a rude person at all. Though Im sure Ill meet a few not all games are free of them.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day.
And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
I picked up a buddy key from a friend for LOTRO and found the community pretty good. Most if not all were helpfull and willing to explain things no matter how absurd the question might seem.
I was trying out the trade skills and started asking around for some advice and got about 20 minutes worth of explanations on what does what and how to do some of the things. I even got free materials even though I specifically told them I was on a trial account and was just trying to experience some of the parts of the game.
I don't think something like that will ever happen in WoW. I'm not saying that WoW is totaly devoid of nice people it's just that they have turned their chats off because of the other 99% of the community and wouldn't have seen my questions when I asked them.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
In one of my gaming classes, we had to debate a topic, and I chose this one. There were 20 people in class and 17 of them played wow for a while and/or still playing it. And only 1 person in the whole class agreed that gear does not show how well you know your class. Bah, why do people still think about this garbage.
Anyways...
I wonder what will subsitute gear and state upgrades? Why are so many games going gear oriented? Especially the theme park ones!