Congress made ALL online gambling operations illegal and offlimits to US citizens and to US banks.
Indeed if your bank accepts charges for the SWG TCG they are liable to chargeback on that alone.
Smed's boys always were shoddy on the details.
Gambling: Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods.
You are NOT wagering money (or anything) with the TCG, you are purchasing "virtual trading cards". There is no uncertain outcome. You pay for virtual cards and you get them. Just because you do not get the ones you want doesn't make it wagering or gambling. It's just like baseball cards.
I hate defending this game....makes me feel dirty
just like you're not wagering money when buying a lottery ticket. You pay for a piece of paper with numbers on it and that's what you get. Just because you don't get the one you want doesn't make it wagering or gambling.
just like you're not wagering money when putting coins in a slot machine. You pay for the appealing light show and and spinning objects and that's what you get. Just because they don't land in the order that you want doesn't make it wagering or gambling.
You are being silly.
The CCG is not gambling because you do get something.... namely the cards. It's a tangible (er... digital) purchase where you do end up with something even if it's not what you hoped for.
With a slot machine you are gambling to win more money. You are not paying for the lights. You may lose that money... hence gambling. With a lottery ticket, you are paying for the chance to win more money... the ticket is merely your receipt. If you don't win, you lose that money.
This is an obvious difference and no matter how much you wish to call the CCG gambling... it isn't. You purchase a pack of 10 cards and you get 10 cards. So for that $10 or whatever amount, you received a $10.00 value.. hence no loss even if it wasn't the cards you wanted... it's WHAT YOU BOUGHT.
Gambling by definition, since forum monkeys like them, is the risk of losing your original bet. You don't lose anything because you still got the value of your purchase.... and it is a purchase... not a wager.
Let's not get all silly in the head now folks. This is gambling, plain and simple. Silly to even argue this point. Just go grab a dictionary if that's too complicated.
The question is, is it illegal? Depends where you live.
like i said before, if the TCG is gambling then a card game like the pokemon card game is gambling too.. but its not, also its not forbidden anywhere so neither will the TCG
if u are so sure that its gambling sue them, nothing to lose if you are sure about it in holland (where i live) it would be illegal since gambling is only allowed in certain (state owned) casino's.
Can you just stop posting stuff like this? You're wrong, plain and simple. If you read the gambling laws that ArcAngel posted, it's very clear about the current situation concerning the TCG according to US gambling laws.
The differences between "name the real card game" and SOE's TCG have been illustrated and elaborated on ad nauseam but people like you seem on intent on ignoring them in favor of your two line posts about how "it's not gambling".
There is no need to sue them. The authorities have been made aware of SOE's nefarious activities. You wont see immediate action, but I can assure you it is being investigated. I'm equally sure that action will be taken against SOE in the near future.
S
enlighten me what the difference is. ur obviously focused on one point (tunnelvision) and that is trying to prove the TCG is an illegal form of gambling. if u dont want to discuss it stop posting yourself o_0
BTW i did read those antigambling law, the difference is that in TCG its always prize unlike illegal gambling where theres a chance to win a prize thats subject to change (like in the TCG 'prize is subject to change') how the hell do you think trading card games get their profit?? right by implementing rare cards, since they also have a function in SWG they are even more wanted which means more cash -> every company thinks like that, get used to it. (and get used to the NGE too for a change)
PS: i dont play any SOE game
SWG TCG isnt like any other TCG. The difference is that it offers cards fthat grant ingame items in SWG.
The new items are even unique features.
So you have players who are not interested in playing the TCG, but are interested in those features. The only way to obtain them is from boosterpacks. And then it still isnt guaranteed. That is the gambling part and also a major difference with Magic the Gathering for example.
Basically to compare it , you could say that you have Magic the Gathering boosterpacks that have a chance on giving a ticket for to obtain a new feature for in WoW.
You see the difference with Pokemon or whatever kind of TCG now?
To get those rare cards, you would have to buy Magic the Gathering boosterpacks for a CHANCE on one of those cards. This is the same as scratchcards, its gambling.
You get nothing tangible. You don't own the cards, you can't transfer the cards (as in re-sell them). TCG is a lottery requiring you to PAY REAL CURRENCY to gamble to get an advantage in a MMORPG, it's that simple.
It's gambling because it's not even honest RMT, ie: cash FOR the loot cards, guaranteed. It's cash to GAMBLE for the loot cards, with unpublished odds.
As has been said, SOE have been reported to the proper authorities, the legality of TCG is going to be resolved by those who determine such things, not by SOE, not by me, and not by their defenders here.
Gambling by definition, since forum monkeys like them, is the risk of losing your original bet. You don't lose anything because you still got the value of your purchase.... and it is a purchase... not a wager.
This.
For a SWG player that isnt interested in TCG (its a seperate game), but is interested in the new features.
That person has to buy boosterpacks for a CHANCE on those ingame items.
For every boosterpack that doesnt have a lootcard (reward), he loses money (risk).
You just explained why TCG is gambling for someone who wants the new items offered by TCG and isnt interested in playing the cardgame.
You get nothing tangible. You don't own the cards, you can't transfer the cards (as in re-sell them). TCG is a lottery requiring you to PAY REAL CURRENCY to gamble to get an advantage in a MMORPG, it's that simple. It's gambling because it's not even honest RMT, ie: cash FOR the loot cards, guaranteed. It's cash to GAMBLE for the loot cards, with unpublished odds. As has been said, SOE have been reported to the proper authorities, the legality of TCG is going to be resolved by those who determine such things, not by SOE, not by me, and not by their defenders here.
/sigh
it is NOT a lottery. It is a simple sale of cards which are random. You still get the friggin cards you BOUGHT.
NOT
A
WAGER
NOT
A
GAMBLE
YOU GET WHAT YOU PAID FOR... Which is a certain number of cards
You get nothing tangible. You don't own the cards, you can't transfer the cards (as in re-sell them). TCG is a lottery requiring you to PAY REAL CURRENCY to gamble to get an advantage in a MMORPG, it's that simple. It's gambling because it's not even honest RMT, ie: cash FOR the loot cards, guaranteed. It's cash to GAMBLE for the loot cards, with unpublished odds. As has been said, SOE have been reported to the proper authorities, the legality of TCG is going to be resolved by those who determine such things, not by SOE, not by me, and not by their defenders here.
/sigh
it is NOT a lottery. It is a simple sale of cards which are random. You still get the friggin cards you BOUGHT.
NOT
A
WAGER
NOT
A
GAMBLE
YOU GET WHAT YOU PAID FOR... Which is a certain number of cards
Have a nice day!
kthanxbye.
Where are the odds listed on obtaining the special loot cards?
You get nothing tangible. You don't own the cards, you can't transfer the cards (as in re-sell them). TCG is a lottery requiring you to PAY REAL CURRENCY to gamble to get an advantage in a MMORPG, it's that simple. It's gambling because it's not even honest RMT, ie: cash FOR the loot cards, guaranteed. It's cash to GAMBLE for the loot cards, with unpublished odds. As has been said, SOE have been reported to the proper authorities, the legality of TCG is going to be resolved by those who determine such things, not by SOE, not by me, and not by their defenders here.
I'm sorry but isn't the loot cards a by product of the TCG?
Isn't the main point of SWG TCG, a board game with cards (a la Magic The Gathering Online, Eye of Judgement, Dreamlords?) to play against another player?
So how is it gambling if the point of TCG is to play with the cards that you always get when you buy a booster pack?
One more thing, any earnings you get from gambling (or lottery), wether its money, products or services are taxed by law. If I'm not mistaken, Virtual Items (even if bought with real world money, like Second Life) aren't taxed, hence they can't fall under the Gambling/Lottery Law umbrella.
Again this is my personal leiman's view on it. Do I agree with what SOE is doing? No I do not. Although I don't play SWG (I do play EQ2), I refuse to buy any virtual items with real life money.
Gambling by definition, since forum monkeys like them, is the risk of losing your original bet. You don't lose anything because you still got the value of your purchase.... and it is a purchase... not a wager.
This.
For a SWG player that isnt interested in TCG (its a seperate game), but is interested in the new features.
That person has to buy boosterpacks for a CHANCE on those ingame items.
For every boosterpack that doesnt have a lootcard (reward), he loses money (risk).
You just explained why TCG is gambling for someone who wants the new items offered by TCG and isnt interested in playing the cardgame.
Well, by George W. Bush... ya got me.
So they bought a pack of cards for a collectible card game and then they choose not to play it.
It is still their choice not to play what they bought
It's still not gambling whether or not those cards have use outside the card game.
Sony is selling a card game. That is the big difference.
Sony is not just and only running a give me $10 and we'll spin the wheel and see if you win or lose. They are selling a product and those people who choose to are purchasing it.
I fully understand and get your point that it seems immoral and wrong to do... hell I agree and hope SOE burns in hell for all of eternity.
But that doesn't make it gambling or illegal.
Because, in the end my dear friends, you are buying a product... and not a lottery ticket.
Those who choose not to play the game after purchasing it still bought a game.... and not a lottery ticket.
You get nothing tangible. You don't own the cards, you can't transfer the cards (as in re-sell them). TCG is a lottery requiring you to PAY REAL CURRENCY to gamble to get an advantage in a MMORPG, it's that simple. It's gambling because it's not even honest RMT, ie: cash FOR the loot cards, guaranteed. It's cash to GAMBLE for the loot cards, with unpublished odds. As has been said, SOE have been reported to the proper authorities, the legality of TCG is going to be resolved by those who determine such things, not by SOE, not by me, and not by their defenders here.
/sigh
it is NOT a lottery. It is a simple sale of cards which are random. You still get the friggin cards you BOUGHT.
NOT
A
WAGER
NOT
A
GAMBLE
YOU GET WHAT YOU PAID FOR... Which is a certain number of cards
Have a nice day!
kthanxbye.
Where are the odds listed on obtaining the special loot cards?
Odds only have to be published for gambling and lotteries. Since this isn't either, no odds need be published
You get nothing tangible. You don't own the cards, you can't transfer the cards (as in re-sell them). TCG is a lottery requiring you to PAY REAL CURRENCY to gamble to get an advantage in a MMORPG, it's that simple. It's gambling because it's not even honest RMT, ie: cash FOR the loot cards, guaranteed. It's cash to GAMBLE for the loot cards, with unpublished odds. As has been said, SOE have been reported to the proper authorities, the legality of TCG is going to be resolved by those who determine such things, not by SOE, not by me, and not by their defenders here.
I'm sorry but isn't the loot cards a by product of the TCG?
Isn't the main point of SWG TCG, a board game with cards (a la Magic The Gathering Online, Eye of Judgement, Dreamlords?) to play against another player?
So how is it gambling if the point of TCG is to play with the cards that you always get when you buy a booster pack?
One more thing, any earnings you get from gambling (or lottery), wether its money, products or services are taxed by law. If I'm not mistaken, Virtual Items (even if bought with real world money, like Second Life) aren't taxed, hence they can't fall under the Gambling/Lottery Law umbrella.
Again this is my personal leiman's view on it. Do I agree with what SOE is doing? No I do not. Although I don't play SWG (I do play EQ2), I refuse to buy any virtual items with real life money.
The loot cards are the lure to get SWG players to purchase the packs. The gamble is that the majority of players do not play the card game they only purchase the packs for the "chance" to obtain the loot cards. Sony todate has not published what the odds are of getting a loot card per pack.
Virtual items per se are not taxable by themselves. However when a person sells a virtual item and real money changes hands that constitiutes a taxable event.
From what I've read on the official swg forums, very, very few people actually play the card game itself. The vast majority only seem concerned with the loot cards. Sounds like gambling to me. Oh and Obriak, NZ gambling laws don't apply in this case at all. It looks like the laws of reason and good judgement don't apply in NZ either. Have you ever said anything remotely critical about soe or swg? I doubt it. You are the very definition of bias.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
You get nothing tangible. You don't own the cards, you can't transfer the cards (as in re-sell them). TCG is a lottery requiring you to PAY REAL CURRENCY to gamble to get an advantage in a MMORPG, it's that simple. It's gambling because it's not even honest RMT, ie: cash FOR the loot cards, guaranteed. It's cash to GAMBLE for the loot cards, with unpublished odds. As has been said, SOE have been reported to the proper authorities, the legality of TCG is going to be resolved by those who determine such things, not by SOE, not by me, and not by their defenders here.
/sigh
it is NOT a lottery. It is a simple sale of cards which are random. You still get the friggin cards you BOUGHT.
NOT
A
WAGER
NOT
A
GAMBLE
YOU GET WHAT YOU PAID FOR... Which is a certain number of cards
Have a nice day!
kthanxbye.
No, you're wrong.
- You don't get real cards, they are nothing more than "data air"
- What you get can be and is resold (therefore it DOES have a monetary value).
- It is a game of chance by definition.
- The odds are not published.
I could go on, but its all been said before, you need only read the rest of the thread.
Just because YOU say something is so, does not make it so.
State and Federal US LAW says it is so, so in the US, it IS SO.
...and you can keep claiming it's gambling when it isn't. which I'm sure you will often and repeatedly. :P
People are purchasing a product (tangible cards or electronic data makes zero difference). They get that product. Hence it is not gambling nor a lottery and therefore is not subject to such regulation.
SOE is not running a lottery because they are providing exactly what players are paying for... a set of cards. If some players find some of those cards more useful or desirable than others, so be it. But they still got exactly what they paid for
Have you ever seen a shop that sells pearls in an oyster? Every one is guaranteed to have a pearl. However, some of the pearls are rarer and more valuable than others.
Is that gambling?
The pearls have value and can be resold. It is chance on what type of pearl you get and no odds are published! OMG QQ
You purchase a product and get what you paid for (the pearl or the cards). Some are more valuable than others.
You better notify the authorities now because almost all florida theme parks have shops like this!!! QQ QQ QQ
STILL NOT GAMBLING AS YOU GOT WHAT YOU PAID FOR.... and no amount of QQ outrage is going to make it illegal.
and to make another valid analogy... Have you ever seen a shop that sells pearls in an oyster? Ever one is guaranteed to have a pearl. However, some of the pearls are rarer and more valuable than others. Is that gambling? You purchase a product and get what you paid for (the pearl or the cards). Some are more valuable than others. You better notify the authorities now because almost all florida theme parks have shops like this!!! QQ QQ QQ STILL NOT GAMBLING AS YOU GOT WHAT YOU PAID FOR.... and no amount of QQ outrage is going to make it illegal.
In the TCG you are NOT guaranteed a loot card.
So much for your analogy. Everything else you stated is simply based upon a false comparison.
and to make another valid analogy... Have you ever seen a shop that sells pearls in an oyster? Every one is guaranteed to have a pearl. However, some of the pearls are rarer and more valuable than others. Is that gambling? The pearls have value and can be resold. It is chance on what type of pearl you get and no odds are published! OMG QQ You purchase a product and get what you paid for (the pearl or the cards). Some are more valuable than others. You better notify the authorities now because almost all florida theme parks have shops like this!!! QQ QQ QQ STILL NOT GAMBLING AS YOU GOT WHAT YOU PAID FOR.... and no amount of QQ outrage is going to make it illegal.
Some people have trouble with facts and prefer their own delusions.
You dont even know what you are talking about and are merely making yourself look very ignorant.
Sadly (for you), I already KNOW that this is going to be pursued based on the fact that the TCG contravenes US law.
You get nothing tangible. You don't own the cards, you can't transfer the cards (as in re-sell them). TCG is a lottery requiring you to PAY REAL CURRENCY to gamble to get an advantage in a MMORPG, it's that simple. It's gambling because it's not even honest RMT, ie: cash FOR the loot cards, guaranteed. It's cash to GAMBLE for the loot cards, with unpublished odds. As has been said, SOE have been reported to the proper authorities, the legality of TCG is going to be resolved by those who determine such things, not by SOE, not by me, and not by their defenders here.
/sigh
it is NOT a lottery. It is a simple sale of cards which are random. You still get the friggin cards you BOUGHT.
NOT
A
WAGER
NOT
A
GAMBLE
YOU GET WHAT YOU PAID FOR... Which is a certain number of cards
Have a nice day!
kthanxbye.
No, you're wrong.
- You don't get real cards, they are nothing more than "data air"
- What you get can be and is resold (therefore it DOES have a monetary value).
- It is a game of chance by definition.
- The odds are not published.
I could go on, but its all been said before, you need only read the rest of the thread.
Just because YOU say something is so, does not make it so.
State and Federal US LAW says it is so, so in the US, it IS SO.
You can keep saying it isnt, and you'll be wrong.
Good luck with that.
S
So, does that make Lifeday gambling then? You have to pay to get the items, you have a random chance of getting something which isn't "real", they can be resold (anything can be resold...) for cash and no odds are publshed.
and to make another valid analogy... Have you ever seen a shop that sells pearls in an oyster? Ever one is guaranteed to have a pearl. However, some of the pearls are rarer and more valuable than others. Is that gambling? You purchase a product and get what you paid for (the pearl or the cards). Some are more valuable than others. You better notify the authorities now because almost all florida theme parks have shops like this!!! QQ QQ QQ STILL NOT GAMBLING AS YOU GOT WHAT YOU PAID FOR.... and no amount of QQ outrage is going to make it illegal.
In the TCG you are NOT guaranteed a loot card.
So much for your analogy. Everything else you stated is simply based upon a false comparison.
You aren't guaranteed a blue pearl either in the analogy, but they are there and much more valuable than a common one.
Analogy still holds. The comparison is spot on the same.
In the TCG, you are guaranteed a card. and SOE delivers on that promise. Case closed.
You get nothing tangible. You don't own the cards, you can't transfer the cards (as in re-sell them). TCG is a lottery requiring you to PAY REAL CURRENCY to gamble to get an advantage in a MMORPG, it's that simple. It's gambling because it's not even honest RMT, ie: cash FOR the loot cards, guaranteed. It's cash to GAMBLE for the loot cards, with unpublished odds. As has been said, SOE have been reported to the proper authorities, the legality of TCG is going to be resolved by those who determine such things, not by SOE, not by me, and not by their defenders here.
/sigh
it is NOT a lottery. It is a simple sale of cards which are random. You still get the friggin cards you BOUGHT.
NOT
A
WAGER
NOT
A
GAMBLE
YOU GET WHAT YOU PAID FOR... Which is a certain number of cards
Have a nice day!
kthanxbye.
No, you're wrong.
- You don't get real cards, they are nothing more than "data air"
- What you get can be and is resold (therefore it DOES have a monetary value).
- It is a game of chance by definition.
- The odds are not published.
I could go on, but its all been said before, you need only read the rest of the thread.
Just because YOU say something is so, does not make it so.
State and Federal US LAW says it is so, so in the US, it IS SO.
You can keep saying it isnt, and you'll be wrong.
Good luck with that.
S
So, does that make Lifeday gambling then? You have to pay to get the items, you have a random chance of getting something which isn't "real", they can be resold (anything can be resold...) for cash and no odds are publshed.
They are charging real money to participate in Lifeday now? I didnt even know that.
and to make another valid analogy... Have you ever seen a shop that sells pearls in an oyster? Ever one is guaranteed to have a pearl. However, some of the pearls are rarer and more valuable than others. Is that gambling? You purchase a product and get what you paid for (the pearl or the cards). Some are more valuable than others. You better notify the authorities now because almost all florida theme parks have shops like this!!! QQ QQ QQ STILL NOT GAMBLING AS YOU GOT WHAT YOU PAID FOR.... and no amount of QQ outrage is going to make it illegal.
In the TCG you are NOT guaranteed a loot card.
So much for your analogy. Everything else you stated is simply based upon a false comparison.
You aren't guaranteed a blue pearl either in the analogy, but they are there and much more valuable than a common one.
Analogy still holds. The comparison is spot on the same.
In the TCG, you are guaranteed a card. and SOE delivers on that promise. Case closed.
No, its a terrible analogy and one with no relevance whatsoever to this discussion.
The case is far from closed. Thankfully, your misinformed opinions have no bearing on the realities of this particular case.
and to make another valid analogy... Have you ever seen a shop that sells pearls in an oyster? Ever one is guaranteed to have a pearl. However, some of the pearls are rarer and more valuable than others. Is that gambling? You purchase a product and get what you paid for (the pearl or the cards). Some are more valuable than others. You better notify the authorities now because almost all florida theme parks have shops like this!!! QQ QQ QQ STILL NOT GAMBLING AS YOU GOT WHAT YOU PAID FOR.... and no amount of QQ outrage is going to make it illegal.
In the TCG you are NOT guaranteed a loot card.
So much for your analogy. Everything else you stated is simply based upon a false comparison.
I have to wonder if the person you're responding to has read the thread?
Here's a brief summary of issues people have raised:
People are paying large sums of real cash for the random chance of obtaining a loot card. The loot cards are not actually a part of the Trading Card Game they are embedded in. They benefit another online entertainment service that people are already paying for.
The idea is that people are spending large sums of money on a chance outcome, hoping that they will obtain something for their subscription based online videogame. In most instances, they lose. They do not get what they hoped for, and some people lose a lot of money in the process.
If the loot cards were a product promotional for the TCG, their would be published odds explaining the chance of winning them (in most North American jursidictions), and their would be a "no purchase necessary" option for entering the promotional contest (once again, in most North American jurisdictions).
What we have in this instance, however, is the absence of published odds, and the absence of a "no purchase necessary options." We seem to have simply an unregulated online game of chance, and as previous posts have indicated, people are gambling large sums of money, and losing.
If SOE was simply selling loot card items, without the gambling aspect, people wouldn't be raising this issue. They might not like paying real dollars for virtual items that they never actually own, but that's another issue.
As others have pointed out, I'm sure the authorities will look into it. If they don't have a problem with the loot cards and the chance aspect of getting them, you and SOE have nothing to worry about. If, however, they don't like the idea that people are gambling hundreds of dollars for something online, and that this is unregulated etc., then well, I guess SOE will have a problem. I'm content to wait and see how this plays out.
From what I can tell, people just don't want to see their friends sucked into an online gambling game, and lose. I'm really not sure why people are fighting this. Do you have something against people knowing the odds of winning a loot card? Do you have something against people being informed of the risks of playing? What's wrong with having the chance of winning independently verified? Why would you be opposed these things? Also, if you're currently playing the game, why would you not want these items added to the game as part of your monthly subscription fee as they were in the past? Why would you want to gamble real money for things that you used to get ingame with ingame currency?
and to make another valid analogy... Have you ever seen a shop that sells pearls in an oyster? Ever one is guaranteed to have a pearl. However, some of the pearls are rarer and more valuable than others. Is that gambling? You purchase a product and get what you paid for (the pearl or the cards). Some are more valuable than others. You better notify the authorities now because almost all florida theme parks have shops like this!!! QQ QQ QQ STILL NOT GAMBLING AS YOU GOT WHAT YOU PAID FOR.... and no amount of QQ outrage is going to make it illegal.
In the TCG you are NOT guaranteed a loot card.
So much for your analogy. Everything else you stated is simply based upon a false comparison.
You aren't guaranteed a blue pearl either in the analogy, but they are there and much more valuable than a common one.
Analogy still holds. The comparison is spot on the same.
In the TCG, you are guaranteed a card. and SOE delivers on that promise. Case closed.
Your analogy is still false...but I am done typing for the night. I will come back tomorrow.
and to make another valid analogy... Have you ever seen a shop that sells pearls in an oyster? Ever one is guaranteed to have a pearl. However, some of the pearls are rarer and more valuable than others. Is that gambling? You purchase a product and get what you paid for (the pearl or the cards). Some are more valuable than others. You better notify the authorities now because almost all florida theme parks have shops like this!!! QQ QQ QQ STILL NOT GAMBLING AS YOU GOT WHAT YOU PAID FOR.... and no amount of QQ outrage is going to make it illegal.
In the TCG you are NOT guaranteed a loot card.
So much for your analogy. Everything else you stated is simply based upon a false comparison.
I have to wonder if the person you're responding to has read the thread?
Here's a brief summary of issues people have raised:
People are paying large sums of real cash for the random chance of obtaining a loot card. The loot cards are not actually a part of the Trading Card Game they are embedded in.
The idea is that people are spending large sums of money on a chance outcome, hoping that they will obtain something for their subscription based online videogame. In most instances, they lose. They do not get what they hoped for, and some people lose a lot of money in the process.
If the loot cards were a product promotional for the TCG, their would be published odds explaining the chance of winning them (in most North American jursidictions), and their would be a "no purchase necessary" option for entering the promotional contest (once again, in most North American jurisdictions).
What we have in this instance, however, is the absence of published odds, and the absence of a "no purchase necessary options." We seem to have simply an unregulated online game of chance, and as previous posts have indicated, people are gambling large sums of money, and losing.
If SOE was simply selling loot card items, with out the gambling aspect, people wouldn't raising this issue. They might not like paying real dollars for virtual items that they never actually own, but that's another issue.
As others have pointed out, I'm sure the authorities will look into it. If they don't have a problem with the loot cards and the chance aspect of getting them, you and SOE have nothing to worry about. If, however, they don't like the idea that people are gambling hundreds of dollars for something online, and that this is unregulated etc., then well, I guess SOE will have a problem. I'm content to wait and see how this plays out.
Its not worth trying to explain things to some of the people here. They ignore all the relevant facts in favour of their own misguided opinions.
and to make another valid analogy... Have you ever seen a shop that sells pearls in an oyster? Ever one is guaranteed to have a pearl. However, some of the pearls are rarer and more valuable than others. Is that gambling? You purchase a product and get what you paid for (the pearl or the cards). Some are more valuable than others. You better notify the authorities now because almost all florida theme parks have shops like this!!! QQ QQ QQ STILL NOT GAMBLING AS YOU GOT WHAT YOU PAID FOR.... and no amount of QQ outrage is going to make it illegal.
In the TCG you are NOT guaranteed a loot card.
So much for your analogy. Everything else you stated is simply based upon a false comparison.
I have to wonder if the person you're responding to has read the thread?
Here's a brief summary of issues people have raised:
People are paying large sums of real cash for the random chance of obtaining a loot card. The loot cards are not actually a part of the Trading Card Game they are embedded in.
The idea is that people are spending large sums of money on a chance outcome, hoping that they will obtain something for their subscription based online videogame. In most instances, they lose. They do not get what they hoped for, and some people lose a lot of money in the process.
If the loot cards were a product promotional for the TCG, their would be published odds explaining the chance of winning them (in most North American jursidictions), and their would be a "no purchase necessary" option for entering the promotional contest (once again, in most North American jurisdictions).
What we have in this instance, however, is the absence of published odds, and the absence of a "no purchase necessary options." We seem to have simply an unregulated online game of chance, and as previous posts have indicated, people are gambling large sums of money, and losing.
If SOE was simply selling loot card items, with out the gambling aspect, people wouldn't raising this issue. They might not like paying real dollars for virtual items that they never actually own, but that's another issue.
As others have pointed out, I'm sure the authorities will look into it. If they don't have a problem with the loot cards and the chance aspect of getting them, you and SOE have nothing to worry about. If, however, they don't like the idea that people are gambling hundreds of dollars for something online, and that this is unregulated etc., then well, I guess SOE will have a problem. I'm content to wait and see how this plays out.
Its not worth trying to explain things to some of the people here. They ignore all the relevant facts in favour of their own misguided opinions.
S
Well personally, I think the only way SOE will be able to pull this off, is if they've set up shop in a state that doesn't regulate online games of chance, and if they've somehow found a loophole related to federal laws.
I guess we'll see. SOE does seem to be good at finding loopholes in consumer protection legislation. If they're good at anything, it seems to be that.
They weren't good enough to avoid a full refund for the ToOW expansion mind you, but they did manage to sidestep any charges related to that. I was corresponding with a guy claiming to be a lawyer, who was posting in defense of SOE. (I wasn't able to verify this claim). His rationale for SOE avoiding fraud charges was that there was no proof of planned deception, and that they refunded all the money for the expansion, so there were no material damages. He said that to get a charge laid, you'd have to prove deceptive intent, and have material damages.
The most obvious damages were publicly refunded, and intention is very difficult to prove without a confession, memo, or insider testimony. They chalked up the apparent deception to poor communication, as if the timing of the NGE announcement was an unfortunate mistake.
I have to wish SOE put more time and energy into gaming excellence, and less time into apparently figuring out how to fleece their players via any available loopholes. Not bashing your game mind you; I'm glad you enjoy it (truly). I'm just questioning SOE's apparent priorities.
Comments
Gambling: Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods.
You are NOT wagering money (or anything) with the TCG, you are purchasing "virtual trading cards". There is no uncertain outcome. You pay for virtual cards and you get them. Just because you do not get the ones you want doesn't make it wagering or gambling. It's just like baseball cards.
I hate defending this game....makes me feel dirty
just like you're not wagering money when buying a lottery ticket. You pay for a piece of paper with numbers on it and that's what you get. Just because you don't get the one you want doesn't make it wagering or gambling.
just like you're not wagering money when putting coins in a slot machine. You pay for the appealing light show and and spinning objects and that's what you get. Just because they don't land in the order that you want doesn't make it wagering or gambling.
You are being silly.
The CCG is not gambling because you do get something.... namely the cards. It's a tangible (er... digital) purchase where you do end up with something even if it's not what you hoped for.
With a slot machine you are gambling to win more money. You are not paying for the lights. You may lose that money... hence gambling. With a lottery ticket, you are paying for the chance to win more money... the ticket is merely your receipt. If you don't win, you lose that money.
This is an obvious difference and no matter how much you wish to call the CCG gambling... it isn't. You purchase a pack of 10 cards and you get 10 cards. So for that $10 or whatever amount, you received a $10.00 value.. hence no loss even if it wasn't the cards you wanted... it's WHAT YOU BOUGHT.
Gambling by definition, since forum monkeys like them, is the risk of losing your original bet. You don't lose anything because you still got the value of your purchase.... and it is a purchase... not a wager.
like i said before, if the TCG is gambling then a card game like the pokemon card game is gambling too.. but its not, also its not forbidden anywhere so neither will the TCG
if u are so sure that its gambling sue them, nothing to lose if you are sure about it
in holland (where i live) it would be illegal since gambling is only allowed in certain (state owned) casino's.
Can you just stop posting stuff like this? You're wrong, plain and simple. If you read the gambling laws that ArcAngel posted, it's very clear about the current situation concerning the TCG according to US gambling laws.
The differences between "name the real card game" and SOE's TCG have been illustrated and elaborated on ad nauseam but people like you seem on intent on ignoring them in favor of your two line posts about how "it's not gambling".
There is no need to sue them. The authorities have been made aware of SOE's nefarious activities. You wont see immediate action, but I can assure you it is being investigated. I'm equally sure that action will be taken against SOE in the near future.
S
enlighten me what the difference is. ur obviously focused on one point (tunnelvision) and that is trying to prove the TCG is an illegal form of gambling. if u dont want to discuss it stop posting yourself o_0
BTW i did read those antigambling law, the difference is that in TCG its always prize unlike illegal gambling where theres a chance to win a prize thats subject to change (like in the TCG 'prize is subject to change') how the hell do you think trading card games get their profit?? right by implementing rare cards, since they also have a function in SWG they are even more wanted which means more cash -> every company thinks like that, get used to it. (and get used to the NGE too for a change)
PS: i dont play any SOE game
SWG TCG isnt like any other TCG. The difference is that it offers cards fthat grant ingame items in SWG.
The new items are even unique features.
So you have players who are not interested in playing the TCG, but are interested in those features. The only way to obtain them is from boosterpacks. And then it still isnt guaranteed. That is the gambling part and also a major difference with Magic the Gathering for example.
Basically to compare it , you could say that you have Magic the Gathering boosterpacks that have a chance on giving a ticket for to obtain a new feature for in WoW.
You see the difference with Pokemon or whatever kind of TCG now?
To get those rare cards, you would have to buy Magic the Gathering boosterpacks for a CHANCE on one of those cards. This is the same as scratchcards, its gambling.
You get nothing tangible. You don't own the cards, you can't transfer the cards (as in re-sell them). TCG is a lottery requiring you to PAY REAL CURRENCY to gamble to get an advantage in a MMORPG, it's that simple.
It's gambling because it's not even honest RMT, ie: cash FOR the loot cards, guaranteed. It's cash to GAMBLE for the loot cards, with unpublished odds.
As has been said, SOE have been reported to the proper authorities, the legality of TCG is going to be resolved by those who determine such things, not by SOE, not by me, and not by their defenders here.
This.
For a SWG player that isnt interested in TCG (its a seperate game), but is interested in the new features.
That person has to buy boosterpacks for a CHANCE on those ingame items.
For every boosterpack that doesnt have a lootcard (reward), he loses money (risk).
You just explained why TCG is gambling for someone who wants the new items offered by TCG and isnt interested in playing the cardgame.
/sigh
it is NOT a lottery. It is a simple sale of cards which are random. You still get the friggin cards you BOUGHT.
NOT
A
WAGER
NOT
A
GAMBLE
YOU GET WHAT YOU PAID FOR... Which is a certain number of cards
Have a nice day!
kthanxbye.
/sigh
it is NOT a lottery. It is a simple sale of cards which are random. You still get the friggin cards you BOUGHT.
NOT
A
WAGER
NOT
A
GAMBLE
YOU GET WHAT YOU PAID FOR... Which is a certain number of cards
Have a nice day!
kthanxbye.
Where are the odds listed on obtaining the special loot cards?
--------
Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
I'm sorry but isn't the loot cards a by product of the TCG?
Isn't the main point of SWG TCG, a board game with cards (a la Magic The Gathering Online, Eye of Judgement, Dreamlords?) to play against another player?
So how is it gambling if the point of TCG is to play with the cards that you always get when you buy a booster pack?
One more thing, any earnings you get from gambling (or lottery), wether its money, products or services are taxed by law. If I'm not mistaken, Virtual Items (even if bought with real world money, like Second Life) aren't taxed, hence they can't fall under the Gambling/Lottery Law umbrella.
Again this is my personal leiman's view on it. Do I agree with what SOE is doing? No I do not. Although I don't play SWG (I do play EQ2), I refuse to buy any virtual items with real life money.
This.
For a SWG player that isnt interested in TCG (its a seperate game), but is interested in the new features.
That person has to buy boosterpacks for a CHANCE on those ingame items.
For every boosterpack that doesnt have a lootcard (reward), he loses money (risk).
You just explained why TCG is gambling for someone who wants the new items offered by TCG and isnt interested in playing the cardgame.
Well, by George W. Bush... ya got me.
So they bought a pack of cards for a collectible card game and then they choose not to play it.
It is still their choice not to play what they bought
It's still not gambling whether or not those cards have use outside the card game.
Sony is selling a card game. That is the big difference.
Sony is not just and only running a give me $10 and we'll spin the wheel and see if you win or lose. They are selling a product and those people who choose to are purchasing it.
I fully understand and get your point that it seems immoral and wrong to do... hell I agree and hope SOE burns in hell for all of eternity.
But that doesn't make it gambling or illegal.
Because, in the end my dear friends, you are buying a product... and not a lottery ticket.
Those who choose not to play the game after purchasing it still bought a game.... and not a lottery ticket.
/sigh
it is NOT a lottery. It is a simple sale of cards which are random. You still get the friggin cards you BOUGHT.
NOT
A
WAGER
NOT
A
GAMBLE
YOU GET WHAT YOU PAID FOR... Which is a certain number of cards
Have a nice day!
kthanxbye.
Where are the odds listed on obtaining the special loot cards?
Odds only have to be published for gambling and lotteries. Since this isn't either, no odds need be published
I'm sorry but isn't the loot cards a by product of the TCG?
Isn't the main point of SWG TCG, a board game with cards (a la Magic The Gathering Online, Eye of Judgement, Dreamlords?) to play against another player?
So how is it gambling if the point of TCG is to play with the cards that you always get when you buy a booster pack?
One more thing, any earnings you get from gambling (or lottery), wether its money, products or services are taxed by law. If I'm not mistaken, Virtual Items (even if bought with real world money, like Second Life) aren't taxed, hence they can't fall under the Gambling/Lottery Law umbrella.
Again this is my personal leiman's view on it. Do I agree with what SOE is doing? No I do not. Although I don't play SWG (I do play EQ2), I refuse to buy any virtual items with real life money.
The loot cards are the lure to get SWG players to purchase the packs. The gamble is that the majority of players do not play the card game they only purchase the packs for the "chance" to obtain the loot cards. Sony todate has not published what the odds are of getting a loot card per pack.
Virtual items per se are not taxable by themselves. However when a person sells a virtual item and real money changes hands that constitiutes a taxable event.
--------
Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
From what I've read on the official swg forums, very, very few people actually play the card game itself. The vast majority only seem concerned with the loot cards. Sounds like gambling to me. Oh and Obriak, NZ gambling laws don't apply in this case at all. It looks like the laws of reason and good judgement don't apply in NZ either. Have you ever said anything remotely critical about soe or swg? I doubt it. You are the very definition of bias.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
/sigh
it is NOT a lottery. It is a simple sale of cards which are random. You still get the friggin cards you BOUGHT.
NOT
A
WAGER
NOT
A
GAMBLE
YOU GET WHAT YOU PAID FOR... Which is a certain number of cards
Have a nice day!
kthanxbye.
No, you're wrong.
- You don't get real cards, they are nothing more than "data air"
- What you get can be and is resold (therefore it DOES have a monetary value).
- It is a game of chance by definition.
- The odds are not published.
I could go on, but its all been said before, you need only read the rest of the thread.
Just because YOU say something is so, does not make it so.
State and Federal US LAW says it is so, so in the US, it IS SO.
You can keep saying it isnt, and you'll be wrong.
Good luck with that.
S
...and you can keep claiming it's gambling when it isn't. which I'm sure you will often and repeatedly. :P
People are purchasing a product (tangible cards or electronic data makes zero difference). They get that product. Hence it is not gambling nor a lottery and therefore is not subject to such regulation.
SOE is not running a lottery because they are providing exactly what players are paying for... a set of cards. If some players find some of those cards more useful or desirable than others, so be it. But they still got exactly what they paid for
SOE Austin: US based operation.
SOE Denver: US based operation.
No way in hell US laws regarding internet gambling doesn't apply to SOE. US laws on that are the strictest in the world.
and to make another valid analogy...
Have you ever seen a shop that sells pearls in an oyster? Every one is guaranteed to have a pearl. However, some of the pearls are rarer and more valuable than others.
Is that gambling?
The pearls have value and can be resold. It is chance on what type of pearl you get and no odds are published! OMG QQ
You purchase a product and get what you paid for (the pearl or the cards). Some are more valuable than others.
You better notify the authorities now because almost all florida theme parks have shops like this!!! QQ QQ QQ
STILL NOT GAMBLING AS YOU GOT WHAT YOU PAID FOR.... and no amount of QQ outrage is going to make it illegal.
In the TCG you are NOT guaranteed a loot card.
So much for your analogy. Everything else you stated is simply based upon a false comparison.
--------
Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
Some people have trouble with facts and prefer their own delusions.
You dont even know what you are talking about and are merely making yourself look very ignorant.
Sadly (for you), I already KNOW that this is going to be pursued based on the fact that the TCG contravenes US law.
S
/sigh
it is NOT a lottery. It is a simple sale of cards which are random. You still get the friggin cards you BOUGHT.
NOT
A
WAGER
NOT
A
GAMBLE
YOU GET WHAT YOU PAID FOR... Which is a certain number of cards
Have a nice day!
kthanxbye.
No, you're wrong.
- You don't get real cards, they are nothing more than "data air"
- What you get can be and is resold (therefore it DOES have a monetary value).
- It is a game of chance by definition.
- The odds are not published.
I could go on, but its all been said before, you need only read the rest of the thread.
Just because YOU say something is so, does not make it so.
State and Federal US LAW says it is so, so in the US, it IS SO.
You can keep saying it isnt, and you'll be wrong.
Good luck with that.
S
So, does that make Lifeday gambling then? You have to pay to get the items, you have a random chance of getting something which isn't "real", they can be resold (anything can be resold...) for cash and no odds are publshed.
In the TCG you are NOT guaranteed a loot card.
So much for your analogy. Everything else you stated is simply based upon a false comparison.
You aren't guaranteed a blue pearl either in the analogy, but they are there and much more valuable than a common one.
Analogy still holds. The comparison is spot on the same.
In the TCG, you are guaranteed a card. and SOE delivers on that promise. Case closed.
/sigh
it is NOT a lottery. It is a simple sale of cards which are random. You still get the friggin cards you BOUGHT.
NOT
A
WAGER
NOT
A
GAMBLE
YOU GET WHAT YOU PAID FOR... Which is a certain number of cards
Have a nice day!
kthanxbye.
No, you're wrong.
- You don't get real cards, they are nothing more than "data air"
- What you get can be and is resold (therefore it DOES have a monetary value).
- It is a game of chance by definition.
- The odds are not published.
I could go on, but its all been said before, you need only read the rest of the thread.
Just because YOU say something is so, does not make it so.
State and Federal US LAW says it is so, so in the US, it IS SO.
You can keep saying it isnt, and you'll be wrong.
Good luck with that.
S
So, does that make Lifeday gambling then? You have to pay to get the items, you have a random chance of getting something which isn't "real", they can be resold (anything can be resold...) for cash and no odds are publshed.
They are charging real money to participate in Lifeday now? I didnt even know that.
Link please.
S
In the TCG you are NOT guaranteed a loot card.
So much for your analogy. Everything else you stated is simply based upon a false comparison.
You aren't guaranteed a blue pearl either in the analogy, but they are there and much more valuable than a common one.
Analogy still holds. The comparison is spot on the same.
In the TCG, you are guaranteed a card. and SOE delivers on that promise. Case closed.
No, its a terrible analogy and one with no relevance whatsoever to this discussion.
The case is far from closed. Thankfully, your misinformed opinions have no bearing on the realities of this particular case.
S
In the TCG you are NOT guaranteed a loot card.
So much for your analogy. Everything else you stated is simply based upon a false comparison.
I have to wonder if the person you're responding to has read the thread?
Here's a brief summary of issues people have raised:
People are paying large sums of real cash for the random chance of obtaining a loot card. The loot cards are not actually a part of the Trading Card Game they are embedded in. They benefit another online entertainment service that people are already paying for.
The idea is that people are spending large sums of money on a chance outcome, hoping that they will obtain something for their subscription based online videogame. In most instances, they lose. They do not get what they hoped for, and some people lose a lot of money in the process.
If the loot cards were a product promotional for the TCG, their would be published odds explaining the chance of winning them (in most North American jursidictions), and their would be a "no purchase necessary" option for entering the promotional contest (once again, in most North American jurisdictions).
What we have in this instance, however, is the absence of published odds, and the absence of a "no purchase necessary options." We seem to have simply an unregulated online game of chance, and as previous posts have indicated, people are gambling large sums of money, and losing.
If SOE was simply selling loot card items, without the gambling aspect, people wouldn't be raising this issue. They might not like paying real dollars for virtual items that they never actually own, but that's another issue.
As others have pointed out, I'm sure the authorities will look into it. If they don't have a problem with the loot cards and the chance aspect of getting them, you and SOE have nothing to worry about. If, however, they don't like the idea that people are gambling hundreds of dollars for something online, and that this is unregulated etc., then well, I guess SOE will have a problem. I'm content to wait and see how this plays out.
From what I can tell, people just don't want to see their friends sucked into an online gambling game, and lose. I'm really not sure why people are fighting this. Do you have something against people knowing the odds of winning a loot card? Do you have something against people being informed of the risks of playing? What's wrong with having the chance of winning independently verified? Why would you be opposed these things? Also, if you're currently playing the game, why would you not want these items added to the game as part of your monthly subscription fee as they were in the past? Why would you want to gamble real money for things that you used to get ingame with ingame currency?
In the TCG you are NOT guaranteed a loot card.
So much for your analogy. Everything else you stated is simply based upon a false comparison.
You aren't guaranteed a blue pearl either in the analogy, but they are there and much more valuable than a common one.
Analogy still holds. The comparison is spot on the same.
In the TCG, you are guaranteed a card. and SOE delivers on that promise. Case closed.
Your analogy is still false...but I am done typing for the night. I will come back tomorrow.
--------
Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
In the TCG you are NOT guaranteed a loot card.
So much for your analogy. Everything else you stated is simply based upon a false comparison.
I have to wonder if the person you're responding to has read the thread?
Here's a brief summary of issues people have raised:
People are paying large sums of real cash for the random chance of obtaining a loot card. The loot cards are not actually a part of the Trading Card Game they are embedded in.
The idea is that people are spending large sums of money on a chance outcome, hoping that they will obtain something for their subscription based online videogame. In most instances, they lose. They do not get what they hoped for, and some people lose a lot of money in the process.
If the loot cards were a product promotional for the TCG, their would be published odds explaining the chance of winning them (in most North American jursidictions), and their would be a "no purchase necessary" option for entering the promotional contest (once again, in most North American jurisdictions).
What we have in this instance, however, is the absence of published odds, and the absence of a "no purchase necessary options." We seem to have simply an unregulated online game of chance, and as previous posts have indicated, people are gambling large sums of money, and losing.
If SOE was simply selling loot card items, with out the gambling aspect, people wouldn't raising this issue. They might not like paying real dollars for virtual items that they never actually own, but that's another issue.
As others have pointed out, I'm sure the authorities will look into it. If they don't have a problem with the loot cards and the chance aspect of getting them, you and SOE have nothing to worry about. If, however, they don't like the idea that people are gambling hundreds of dollars for something online, and that this is unregulated etc., then well, I guess SOE will have a problem. I'm content to wait and see how this plays out.
Its not worth trying to explain things to some of the people here. They ignore all the relevant facts in favour of their own misguided opinions.
S
In the TCG you are NOT guaranteed a loot card.
So much for your analogy. Everything else you stated is simply based upon a false comparison.
I have to wonder if the person you're responding to has read the thread?
Here's a brief summary of issues people have raised:
People are paying large sums of real cash for the random chance of obtaining a loot card. The loot cards are not actually a part of the Trading Card Game they are embedded in.
The idea is that people are spending large sums of money on a chance outcome, hoping that they will obtain something for their subscription based online videogame. In most instances, they lose. They do not get what they hoped for, and some people lose a lot of money in the process.
If the loot cards were a product promotional for the TCG, their would be published odds explaining the chance of winning them (in most North American jursidictions), and their would be a "no purchase necessary" option for entering the promotional contest (once again, in most North American jurisdictions).
What we have in this instance, however, is the absence of published odds, and the absence of a "no purchase necessary options." We seem to have simply an unregulated online game of chance, and as previous posts have indicated, people are gambling large sums of money, and losing.
If SOE was simply selling loot card items, with out the gambling aspect, people wouldn't raising this issue. They might not like paying real dollars for virtual items that they never actually own, but that's another issue.
As others have pointed out, I'm sure the authorities will look into it. If they don't have a problem with the loot cards and the chance aspect of getting them, you and SOE have nothing to worry about. If, however, they don't like the idea that people are gambling hundreds of dollars for something online, and that this is unregulated etc., then well, I guess SOE will have a problem. I'm content to wait and see how this plays out.
Its not worth trying to explain things to some of the people here. They ignore all the relevant facts in favour of their own misguided opinions.
S
Well personally, I think the only way SOE will be able to pull this off, is if they've set up shop in a state that doesn't regulate online games of chance, and if they've somehow found a loophole related to federal laws.
I guess we'll see. SOE does seem to be good at finding loopholes in consumer protection legislation. If they're good at anything, it seems to be that.
They weren't good enough to avoid a full refund for the ToOW expansion mind you, but they did manage to sidestep any charges related to that. I was corresponding with a guy claiming to be a lawyer, who was posting in defense of SOE. (I wasn't able to verify this claim). His rationale for SOE avoiding fraud charges was that there was no proof of planned deception, and that they refunded all the money for the expansion, so there were no material damages. He said that to get a charge laid, you'd have to prove deceptive intent, and have material damages.
The most obvious damages were publicly refunded, and intention is very difficult to prove without a confession, memo, or insider testimony. They chalked up the apparent deception to poor communication, as if the timing of the NGE announcement was an unfortunate mistake.
I have to wish SOE put more time and energy into gaming excellence, and less time into apparently figuring out how to fleece their players via any available loopholes. Not bashing your game mind you; I'm glad you enjoy it (truly). I'm just questioning SOE's apparent priorities.