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Why I didn't even start Dark and Light
chryses
Member UncommonPosts: 1,453
I think its interesting to see little or no news about D&L these days and as far as I can see the game is dead but I really don't know.
Where they went wrong IMO is right back at the start. Dark and Light had my interest years ago when it was being made and I swore I would play it. However when it launched I wanted to jump in and try it out but it was just too confusing trying to work out the billing system and for a game that looked quite different I expected to see a 3-10 day trial.
I just think its interesting how a company could spend years making a game but get the billing system wrong and/or don't offer a trial version or buddy pass and it can really hurt the game from the outset.
Comments
They didn't do anything wrong. At least, in the sense that I don't think they made "mistakes", they knew what they were doing. They were totally responsible for their acts... thinking otherwise will be like trying to justify this hoax. They just promised a lot, delivered nothing and charged for it. DnL didn't fail because of mistakes; it failed because it was hoax.
The servers had been down for months now, which is good because no one else will suffer this hoax.
By the way, it wasn't just the billing system or the lack of trail or buddy keys. DnL was not a MMO but a compendium of bugs. It lagged and crashed as I never saw in any other MMO. The design was terrible, there was a huge lack of content (and the few content in game was just... wrong) and the graphics sucked big time (with the exception of the world itself with was made with a tool that the company supposely stole).
99% of the promises weren't in game and the 1% was just bugs and bad content.
This "game" and Mourning did something good: they showed us what hoaxes can be done in the MMO industry.
The reason you don't see any "news" for the game is because the company that developed the game (NPCube) fired all their employees and the CEO is in hiding to avoid the heat from all the lawsuits that have been filed aginst his company. That is why there is no official news.
Here is the unofficial news: The game servers are shut down, there are multiple lawsuits pending aginst the makes of the game and there is no hope that it will ever return. Shortly a DnL fanboy will arrive to dispute this news by claiming the game is still being developed in China, but this is bull because the former Chinese publisher for the game is also out of money and refuses to discuss this game just like everyone else who was involved with it.
The History of the Order of The Golden Shields
Whoa! Looks like I dodged a bullet there then. I was tempted to fork out the cash but just went to EVE at that time. I have to say I kind believe the story about the world engine being different / stolen because my biggest issue was the difference in quality in the screen shots. The world looked amazing but the characters and critters looked pretty average. Shame because the build up to the game looked very promising. Just hope DF isn't the same.
I wouldn't put too much stock into Darkfall if I were you. It has a shocking amount of history in common with Dark and Light as well as with the other big flopper in the MMO industry: Shadowbane. If you don't know much about Shadowbane, then read this and this.
Example #1: Time in Development
Shadowbane: Was in development for many, many years during which time it was hyped to an enormous degree and was delayed multiple times. The developers were caught on atleast on occasaion quoting a different release date to their customers on the official forums than they had reported to their publisher who quoted that time in a press release.
Dark and Light: Was in development for many, many years. Evertually released in a still unfinished state called "Settlers of Gareneth" or something along those lines. The developer called this a pre-release and started selling copies of the game in order to get access to SoG. About six months after this the "finished" version of the game was released with few, if any, improvements.
DarkFall: Has been in development for many, many years. Currently there is little to show for this except a few blurry alpha videos and some outdated screenshots.
Example #2: Small, previously unknown developer
Shadowbane: Was developed by Wolfpack Studios (now known as Stray Bullet Games) which was formed recently and had not worked on or released any games previously.
Dark and Light: Was developed by NPCube which was formed recently and had not worked on or released any games previously.
DarkFall: Being developed by ADVENTURINE which was formed recently and has not worked on or released any games previously.
Example #3: Beta Testing
Shadowbane: Was in closed alpha and beta testing for many years which very few people got to play. Was very secretive about the beta prior to release. Open beta was very short and people were pressured to pre-order through Gamestop if they wanted to get into the open beta.
Dark and Light: Was in closed beta testing for many years which very few people got to play. "Open Beta" took the form of SoG which you had to pre-order the game to get access to.
DarkFall: Has been in beta testing for some time now but very few people have been allowed in. Very secretive about what is currently going on with the game.
Example #4: Focus on PvP
Shadowbane: Shadowbane was an open-PvP game where you could attack anyone, anywhere at any time. The was a lot of hype about huge sieges and guild vs guild warfare. The final release of the game was buggy, unfinished and the siege and guild systems didn't live up to the hype.
Dark and Light: Had a heavy focus on PvP, mainly between the dark players and light players. There was a lot of hype about keep battles and sieges, which didn't live up to the hype in the final release of the game.
DarkFall: Has stated their game will have open PvP, similar to Shadowbane. There is a large focus on warfare between clans (guilds) and the different races.
Example #5: Large open world
Shadowbane: Claimed it would have a huge world. Each server would be its own unique "shard" of the world and travel between servers would be possible. In the final release of the game they had problems even keeping the servers running and travel between servers was only possible in the event the server you were playing on was shut down and you were given the option to transfer to a different one.
Dark and Light: Claimed it would have a huge world and that exploration, scouting, mapping and other skills would be very important. In the "pre-release" SoG only a very small fraction of the world was actually accessable and most of this was empty. In the final release many parts of the world remained locked, and the majority of the world was barren wasteland. Scouting, mappaing and other skills related to exploration never made it into the game.
DarkFall: Claims to have a huge world. Claims that horses, ocean travel and other major travel options will be available at launch.
The long and short of it is that each of these games was made by a small development studio with limited talent and and even more limited budget. When your hype outweighs what you are actually capable of delivering the chances of dissapointment are very high. So far in the past when small studios have tried to develop huge open-ended games with a heavy emphasis on PvP combat the result has been dissapointment. I have serious doubts that Darkfall will be the game to change this trend.
The History of the Order of The Golden Shields
Not a bad comparison. I'd love to see this post as a thread in the DF section...the waters will be churning with rabid fanboys and haters alike.
------------------
Originally posted by javac
well i'm 35 and have a PhD in science, and then 10 years experience in bioinformatics... you?
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/218865/page/8
While your comparisons are true you can't just toss DF into the same boat until we see what happens to it. I'm not a DF fanboy, not even looking forward to the game. I'm a spellborn fanboy(hense the account name :P) and I just finished playing the 2 day open beta they had for the european community. Spellborn matches just about every comparison listed there and it by no means seems like it will disappoint. It was made by a no-name developer (Spellborn International LTD.), a company made specifically for the development of the game. It was originally planned to be released Q1 of 2007, started development in 2005. It's only being released now, Q4 2008, Q1 2009 for the US. It's been hyped to be very innovative and different from the rest of the market (which it is. I have to say it is hands down the best game I've ever played). The game has proven to me and the other testers that it is no hoax and it is ready for launch despite the countless delays and limited content leaked to the public due to the beta NDA. While I'm not saying that DF will be the same way as TCoS there is a chance that it will not disappoint. Also, I played DnL when they had their temporarily free to play period and I have to agree it was garbage. I had a good computer at the time but it lagged horribly and looked even worse. With the massive following DF has amassed I hope it doesn't disappoint. For those of you that play it and find it's garbage theres always TCoS. Give it a look.
Unless I'm mistaken, Spellborn has not been in development anywhere near as long as the other games on my list have been. Plus, it does not have anywhere near as much of a focus on PvP as these games did. The only thing thats really the same is the fact that its being developed by an otherwise unknown studio.
As for the claim that it won't dissapoint... I don't think thats a given either. The decision to make Acclaim the publisher has been frowned upon by many gamers. Then there is the recent UK/EU server fiasco. Lastly, with some of the recent screenshots we finally got a close look at what the character models look like and I for one have to say that I'm no longer interested in the game based on that alone. I'm not saying that Tcos won't be good. But I think its safe to assume even now that it probably is not going to be able to make everyone happy.
The History of the Order of The Golden Shields
Yeah, you should re-post in the DF forums. It's a well thought-out piece and should make for some heated discussion.
Yeah, you should re-post in the DF forums. It's a well thought-out piece and should make for some heated discussion.
I may repost it... But I have this terrible feeling, knowning the fans of open PvP games as I do, that "heated discussion" will quikly turn into "insulting flame fest" when the mods aren't looking.
The History of the Order of The Golden Shields
Heh.
And we wouldn't want that now would we.
It is not often that I find myself in agreement with Raltar, but in this case I think his analysis is spot on!
I do believe though that there may be another dynamics working here.
I am a avid fan of huge, seemless worlds, and I think that therein may lie the problem.
Terrain simulator programs are needed to produce such worlds, but even though those simulators may include caverns or seas or flora and fauns, they are not dynamic features.
Those types of effects they have to be layered over the basic terrain engine. From what I have been able to observe, this is a cumbersome and inefficient way to do it. The systems do not 'mesh' well together.
At least in the case of DnL, the type of coding was very demanding on hardware as well. When Dnl launched, the FPS rate was about 10-15 FPS on my older rig is empty areas, and could fall as low as 5FPS (or lower) in any type of crowd or weather effects such as snowfall, making the game virtually unplayable for people wigh older machines. I read somewhere that the industry standard for an MMO requires FPS of 30+ in crowded areas. That is generally achievable, but most games still experience major lag in large raid type situations.
Over time there were some improvements in DnL, and when the game shut down I could get between 15-20 FPS in most areas with the same machine I started with. Those with newer machines seemed to have relatively few problems.
I am unconvinced that this poor performance was soley because the programmers were incompetent or that Pix sabotaged his coding when he left. I believe that it was the case that the systems were not really very compatible with each other. As far as I know, DnL was the first attempt at such a project.
Perhaps Darkfall may be encountering similar difficulties, I don't know but I would be interested to see how they manage it.
Vanguard tried to side step the problem be using a system of many tiny zones that imitated a seemless world, but was in reality a zone format. These 'chunk lines' would also cause pathing and stutter problems as well.
There is another fundamental problem with huge worlds and PvP as well.
DnL at the end would only see 30-50 players on at peak times, and the world was virtually empty. PvP requires a healthy population of players in order to be successful, which DnL most certainly did not have. However, even if the server population had seen 1,000 players on, when spread out over such a vast area, the effect would have been the same; many areas virtually empty of players or with only a handful.
It's a 'Catch-22' situation. To fill up a huge world for active PvP means that most areas are realatively populated, and the sense of being in the vast wide open is lost. If you wish to feel the vastness of the world, then it is not condusive for PvP. On a world the size of Ganareth, a population of thousands might be required, adding further strain on the system.
I still think that the terrain simulators have not yet reached the level of flexibility required for use in MMOs, but perhaps I am wrong.
I would like to here the opinions of those more versed in the technical aspects of this to see if they agree or disagree.
Ex# 1 Development time.
DarkFall: Has been in development for many, many years. Currently there is little to show for this except a few blurry alpha videos and some outdated screenshots.
Problem here is there is actual a great deal to show for it. There's the 17 min in game footage from this year, there's the footage from the live game play presentation from the ADW. There's also the recent MMORPG italia beta preview and review. There's also the slew of recent screenshots. Lastly Aventurine was founded in 2002 it took over DarkFall's development and scrapped the engine and many of the concepts and added others. DarkFalls actual development began in 2003. The development time is 5-6 years which is the standard development time for MMOPRG's.
Ex# 2 Small, Previously unknown comapny.
You are correct here, they are similar to EvE in this respect. There is also the fact every company starts some where lol. Untill a company has done something there are unknown this is fact.
Ex# 3 Beta.
Can't argue here, they are being very strict with the NDA and even made the people from MMORPG italia take down screenshots they posted that had names of beta testers in the chat logs.
Ex# 4 Focus on PvP.
There is FFA PvP and full looting, the thing is that they have put just as much atention into the PvE. PvE should be more challenging in DarkFall than in previous MMO's. In any case having a focus on PvP isn't a bad thing either unless you don't like pvp or being in a world with pvp. There are those that enjoy PvP and there are those that enjoy the rush of playing in a PvP enviroment.
Ex# 5 Large open World.
It is similar to UO in this aspect. Both are large open worlds. If a company can make a Large open World work for an MMORPG back in the 90's on dialup connection I realy don't see why other companies can't in 2008-9 lol. Technology has come a very long way. Succeed or fail I for one am glad they are trying, I will point out so far it has seemed to work. We will have to wait and see though.
As for your long and short of it EvE did exactly what you have said hasn't been done yet for the most part. Wasn't flaiming you or bashing just correcting a few points. It would be wise for everyone to remain skeptical of DF fortunetly they said they want us to try the game for free before paying anything for it which kind of negates every comparison. If you can try it free before spending any money that means you can find out if you like it or not before purchase which seems to be completely against the industries motto lol.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but the size of DnL absolutely dwarfed UO.
Here is an old size comparison from these forums:
Total area (square kilometers):
Dark and Light - 40,000
SWG (all worlds) - 2025
Horizons - 1024
WoW - 950
AC1 - 576
EQ1 - 144
UO - 49
How many times each world fits into Dark and Light:
Dark and Light - 1
SWG (all worlds) - 20
Horizons - 39
WoW - 42
AC1 - 69
EQ1 - 278
UO - 816
What % of Dark and Light does each world make up:
Dark and Light - 100 %
SWG (all worlds) - 5 %
Horizons - 2.6 %
WoW - 2.4 %
AC1 - 1.4 %
EQ1 - 0.4 %
UO - 0.1 %
Now the 40,000 figure included all 13 kingdoms and in reality only 5 were eventually opened, so that 40,000 square kilometers is in actuality more like 15,000 square kilometers, but it still absolutely dominates the other MMOs in terms of size.
Without looking up Vanguard, (which had a fairly large world as well), I still think that DnL far surpassed it.
I think that Darkfall (if it ever releases) would still be smaller, but not too much smaller than DnL was with only the 5 kingdoms open
not a bad comparison but like all investment brochures state, 'past performance is not a guide to future performance'. However it generally is. I don't know that DF will go the same way as shadowbane and D&L, I feel more confident about it since reading some latest beta tester threads. I do take them with a big pinch of salt though
In a way I want spellborn, DF, Earthrise and Jumpgate to succeed as we need to see companies moving away from the norm otherwise the big companies will continue to spew out WOW clones.