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Chlodwig
Member Posts: 150
in Tabula Rasa
So TR is closing. Too bad, really. And while I already miss it, I wonder where I should go now from here? I loved the idea of fast paced FPS-style MMO.
Now, I certainly don't want to return to stand-and-deliver style games like WoW. But almost all MMOs I know work that way. Fantasy style, "don't move or your spell breaks", "equipment means more than player skill" games.
Is there something else like TR? A game, preferably in a sci-fi setting, with fast paced, mobile combat? Something else that breaks the mold that has been the staple of MMO games from EQ to WoW?
Comments
The chronicles of spellborn
Sorry but TR did not take any player skill either.
I would suggest DDO even though it is fantasy it has strategy to the combat, it is pretty fast paced and skill and tactics are just as important as the equipment.
TR did not break the mold either. It could have with some of the ideas that died in development, the game that got released was not nearly as innovative as the game they were supposed to release. TR died because of the failures of the dev team and the game they designed. In my opinion it got what it deserved.
You know, the thing about TR is the same thing that there was about Auto Assault. It wasn't REAL action. Yes, you aimed your gun at the bad guys and yes you could move around while shooting. But at the end of the day it was still a bunch of random dice rolls that determined the majority of combat. You shouldn't be fooled into thinking that player skill mattered.
Go to Planetside. Its a REAL FPS game which has REAL action and no random dice rolls. Either that or you have to wait for something like Fallen Earth.
The History of the Order of The Golden Shields
Man, you've been wrong about everything in every thread you've posted on and you're still wrong.
For onesies, TR was "near real time" combat. Secondly, the difference between TR's combat and PS' combat is sticky targeting. In PS a shot to the foot does the same damage as a shot to the face. Literally the only difference between the two combat systems was the sticky targeting.
Secondly, TR wasn't die based. At all. There were no accuracy modifiers for one and damage was constant though dynamically influenced (various stances gave you + damage constants and various levels of cover - damage taken constants). In fact, TR had no die based elements involved in the entire combat engine. Everything was a constant. Counter Strike has more die based algorithms than TR ever did.
Seriously, I'd maybe stop making posts in the forum. You know nothing of TR's combat engine (I did extensive theorycraft writeups at Tabula Spot and posted guides on PlanetTR, I know WTF I'm talking about) and in the other thread you were whining about SOE because you (mistakenly) thought they were resonsible for the development of MxO and Vanguard.
So please, just stop making a fool of yourself, mmmk? Thanks.
First off, I guess you just called yourself wrong too, because the only other thread you and I have both posted in we both said the same thing to the OP of that thread. It really doesn't make a lot of sense to call someone wrong on everything when they have many of the exact same opinions as you do.
Secondly, I suppose you are partly right about the die rolls. Damage was "constant" based on various factors. But it was still aim in the general direction of what you want to die and wait for the computer to do the rest game. If your target was moving or small or had other issues which would make it near impossible to hit in a real FPS game didn't factor into TR. The fact that you could get hit through walls proves the game wasn't using real combat. You locked onto something, pushed a button and then the computer either told you that you hit and did "X" amount of damage or you missed. the enemies were doing the same to you. Strafing, ducking, running ect all didn't matter. Thus, nothing like Planetside where hitting your target actually depends on your projectile making contact with the target.
Third, MxO and Vanguard were both published by SoE. You and I both know that publishers have a huge influence in the development of their games even if they aren't directly doing the work themselves. Plus if you recall, I blamed both SoE and Sega for MxO. I'm sure we could hand out blame to several other folks as well, but I think SoE deserves their fair share too.
The History of the Order of The Golden Shields
I agree!
First off, I guess you just called yourself wrong too, because the only other thread you and I have both posted in we both said the same thing to the OP of that thread. It really doesn't make a lot of sense to call someone wrong on everything when they have many of the exact same opinions as you do.
Secondly, I suppose you are partly right about the die rolls. Damage was "constant" based on various factors. But it was still aim in the general direction of what you want to die and wait for the computer to do the rest game. If your target was moving or small or had other issues which would make it near impossible to hit in a real FPS game didn't factor into TR. The fact that you could get hit through walls proves the game wasn't using real combat. You locked onto something, pushed a button and then the computer either told you that you hit and did "X" amount of damage or you missed. the enemies were doing the same to you. Strafing, ducking, running ect all didn't matter. Thus, nothing like Planetside where hitting your target actually depends on your projectile making contact with the target.
Third, MxO and Vanguard were both published by SoE. You and I both know that publishers have a huge influence in the development of their games even if they aren't directly doing the work themselves. Plus if you recall, I blamed both SoE and Sega for MxO. I'm sure we could hand out blame to several other folks as well, but I think SoE deserves their fair share too.
yea it was closer to die based than true fps which is the feel they were going for, though die is the wrong word.
in short if you want to play a shooter play a shooter. a mmorpg CANT calculate complex trajectories on the fly, it would involve way too much processing power and net speed to be viable (no really 1000 players times 160 shots a min versus 1000 targets now multiply it so the other players can see it...nope aint happening. this is why there are no 900 man deathmatches in unreal). i think its minced words at this point though. i hope 85% of online games get shut down this year including by some miracle wow, THAT would open some doors.
Haha - dream on. If that happens, basically every MMO worth playing would also be shut down as that would mean that the market almost doesn't exist anymore.
yea it was closer to die based than true fps which is the feel they were going for, though die is the wrong word.
Yes, exactly! "Dice rolls" was the wrong term for me to use and I was well aware of the fact that damage in TR was constant (in fact, now that you have reminded me I'm recalling that was yet another feature of the combat I found unrealistic and was counter to what a real action game would be like).
The thing is, real FPS action combat is possible in an MMO. Planetside is an FPS game just like any other FPS game and it is also an MMO. I think that was what most people wanted from TR, was an actual physics and combat system which fonctioned in a realistic way. But the TR devs only dressed it up to look like action, while in reality their game was just like every other MMO. Lock onto target, push button, get damage.
The History of the Order of The Golden Shields
I honestly wonder if we can get a thread around FPS-style MMOs without descending into the "dice rolling vs. aiming" discussion. I'm aware that TR offers no "real" aiming system and that it's of no overwhelming importance whether you can point your gun exactly at your opponent. I don't care, and actually I like it that way. The challenge in TR is not to point your crosshairs at a certain spot of your enemy but to position yourself well compared to the enemy, to think ahead and to use weapons and logos abilities sensibly at the right time, move into a better position and use territory to your advantage. Not to the extent that I would have liked, but it was a pretty good start.
I took a look at Chronicles now, thank you for the suggestion. It is a nice game, but yet another fantasy MMO. With a nice FPS-style combat interface, I have to give you that, and a quite interesting and genuinely new "skill rotation" system that I can only urge everyone to try. It sure is a new experience. Not my kind of game, though. What I sorely miss is any kind of relevance of the area you're fighting in. No way to use cover or other terrain features to gain an upper hand in the battle. It's still mostly standing and hacking (or jumping around your enemy if you prefer that), but I miss the tactical option to dive behind a stack of sandbags (or the fantasy equivalent thereof) to reduce incoming damage.
Planetside sounds interesting. I just have second thoughts about joining a 5 year old game that is in the "SOE trashcan", aka station pass, along with such "gems" as Matrix Online, Vanguard and EQ2. It seems that after the server merges of PS activity is up at nominal levels again, still, I tend to shy away from games that made it into the trashcan pass.
Stargate Worlds looked like a game I could have liked, a sci-fi world with a game designed around terrain features for combat, where cover is a significant, if not fundamental, part of the game. Yet from what I can see so far from various videos it is still a mostly "standard" MMO with an equally standard point-and-click interface.
So a blend of the controls of Chronicles and the setting as well as the tactics of SGW would be what I'm looking for.
Fallen Earth is shaping up nicely.
Ha, I know exactly what you mean. I still feel like kicking myself sometimes for letting SoE anywhere near my wallet. But even though they have treated Planetside like a red-headed stepchild its still pretty much the only working MMOFPS game out there. It plays a lot like BF2142 if you have ever played that but without the need for a "round" to end at any point. Just a constant rolling battle. I don't know if there is a trial available for it but if there is you might want to try it. If there isn't a trial then I would suggest you skip it and not worry about it, you wouldn't miss anything that impressive.
The History of the Order of The Golden Shields
WHat do you and I posting in the same threads have to do with anything? You were wrong about SOE developing MxO and Vanguard just like you're wrong about TR's combat engine being dice based. IT WASN'T.
I'm not "partly" right, I'm 100% right. There is nothing in TR's combat engine which is die based. Damage is damage. In fact, I can break down the damage formula for you. It's really easy.
Base Damage of Weapon + Level Bonus + Weapon Skill Pump + Stance Bonus - Target's Cover Bonus = Damage Done to Taget
There's TR's damage formula. All of the variables are constants. A shot from a level 42 purple rocket launcher will always do the same base damage. A level 44 player with three pumps in RLs & GLs will always be the same bonus. KNeeling will always net you the same damage bonus. 25% cover will always net you the exact same negative damage modifier. The system has absolutely no random elements or "moving parts" so to speak. As I said earlier, COUNTER STRIKE uses more die based elements in it's damage rolls than TR does.
In TR you could hit through walls? Did you even play the game? The game *constantly* checks cover elements between the target and and targeter. It could detect all three states of cover very easily (25%, 50%, 100%). Again, YOU ARE WRONG. I played this game for almost eight months after launch. You CANNOT shoot through walls.
ANd then you bring up sticky targeting? Yeah, maybe you to reread my last post but I was explicitly clear that the only difference between PlanetSide's combat and Tabula Rasa's combat was sticky targeting. I said that. In the post you quoted. Learn 2 read, k? Nah, you won't...
Lastly, MxO wasn't even picked up by SOE until June 2005. It was released in March 2005. So no, MxO was not published by SOE. Secondly, Vanguard was only co-published by SOE until SOE bought it out right from SIgil six months after launch.
So once again every "fact" you stated in your post is completely wrong. As I said before, just stop posting.
You claimed I was wrong in EVERY thread I posted in. Apparently not, since I have posted in some of the same threads you have posted in and said some of the exact same things to some of the exact same people. Unless of course you only see what YOU want to see. Did you by chance read any of the posts in this thread after your last post? Did you see any of the conversation that took place and all the people who agreed with me?
Yes, "die based" was the wrong term and I admitted I already knew that. Damage is indeed "constant" as you say, thus making your data correct, but your overall opinion still wrong. The game is not action and does not use player skill like a real FPS game. You point at an enemy, push a button and the computer does some math. The "projectile" fired by your "weapon" is not actualy real and has no physics of its own. Its just graphics. This is how you can shoot through walls as well because the computer does its calculation on if you hit your target or not when you FIRE and not when the fake projectile actually makes contact with the target. I was a sinper and I saw this ALL the time. I could hit enemies while they were moving behind objects just so long as as I pushed the button beforer they got behind the object in question. Other people in this forum have said the same thing so I'm obviously not the only person who saw this. What this means is that moving doesn't matter at all in the game. You can run and jump and even try to dodge behind objects like in a real action game, but unlike in a real action game it won't help because the computer doesn't take it into account when it does its math to determine if you were damaged or not.
Counter Strike is a crap game by the way, nobody over the age of 12 with an IQ over 12 would actually enjoy it for more than five seconds. When I talk about a REAL FPS I'm talking about one where damage is actually based on the projectile fired by your weapon making contact with an enemy. Such as Planetside, the game you claimed was exactly the same as TR. But its not. In TR the projectile is fake and damage is all math. In Planetside the projectile itself actually has its own physics and does damage only if it actually makes contact with the enemy.
And blah, blah, blah about MxO. Like I told the guy in the other thread: I don't care who orginally developed the game or who was the first publisher. SoE owns the game now and is now the current publisher of it. And its still a crap game, that hasn't somehow changed just because SoE has it now. You, like the guy in the other thread, just took one or two tiny details about my post and tried to tear it apart from there but you failed to actually address the overall opinion my post was making. In this case that opinion is that TR is not an action game. Its a math and stats game just like every other MMO. The devs tried to dress it up to make it look like action and I'll even give them credit by saying they did a pretty good job, but at the end of the day it still boils down to math and stats with little or no player skill involved. This (in addition to lack of content) is the reason why the game gets boring after a short time. Sooner or later you figure out you are just running around clicking on bad guys and waiting for the computer to "roll the dice" for you (yes, I know there are no "dice" because of the "constant" damage but the point is that it feels exactly like every other game where dice are used).
The History of the Order of The Golden Shields
yes... check out Fallen Earth... www.fallenearth.com
fast paced FPS (or 3rd) combat with strong RPG elements
sandbox
post-apocalyptic/sci-fi setting
six factions