Some people just like playing a game with other people, trading, chatting, crafting stuff for others, making a name for themselves, running huge epic quests and sharing that experience with others. It's kinda like drinking; sometimes it's just more fun with friends.
What I'm trying to get at is that this isn't really an MMO. It's a single player game that's made to make some more money that borders on the side of consumer manipulation. If you honestly thought I was really trying to ask that question, get off of your high and mighty horse. Notice how not one person named ONE single MMO element.
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Hey, you are saying that this is a single player game that they are making an MMO to make more money with. My question is: How do you know this is a single player game? Must be psychic powers as the game hasn't even entered the alpha stage yet. Speculate all you want, but don't present it as fact, and certainly don't get your panties in a bunch when no one else seems to agree with you.
Honestly, they have been clamoring on about a wonderful single-player story. What more proof do you need? Should I suddenly expect the game to be completely different than what they said it was going to be?
The ONLY mention of actual MMO content is the discussion on end game, which is frankly delusional. WoW made this work because WoW is more like Diablo 2 than an MMO. All games that have come out so far that have used ideas from WoW haven't seen big success.
Am I wrong to want a real Star Wars MMO to succeed? I think this makes me more on your side than you know..
I am kinda getting that guild wars type feeling from them, but we really don't know what the game will be like. We just have to wait and see what they come up with. They may come up with something great! Or they may come up with something that sucks. Either way we just have to have patience because in the end the market will decide what people are willing to pay for.
What I'm trying to get at is that this isn't really an MMO. It's a single player game that's made to make some more money that borders on the side of consumer manipulation. If you honestly thought I was really trying to ask that question, get off of your high and mighty horse. Notice how not one person named ONE single MMO element.
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Hey, you are saying that this is a single player game that they are making an MMO to make more money with. My question is: How do you know this is a single player game? Must be psychic powers as the game hasn't even entered the alpha stage yet. Speculate all you want, but don't present it as fact, and certainly don't get your panties in a bunch when no one else seems to agree with you.
Honestly, they have been clamoring on about a wonderful single-player story. What more proof do you need? Should I suddenly expect the game to be completely different than what they said it was going to be?
The ONLY mention of actual MMO content is the discussion on end game, which is frankly delusional. WoW made this work because WoW is more like Diablo 2 than an MMO. All games that have come out so far that have used ideas from WoW haven't seen big success.
Am I wrong to want a real Star Wars MMO to succeed? I think this makes me more on your side than you know..
A good single player story line is what a lot of MMO's are missing in my opinion. Especially since Bioware has said that they are going to give you choices that you will have to make that will effect the direction of your character's story. This adds a replayability element that I realy haven't felt in an MMO. It also adds an element of individuality to your character that won't make you feel like 'just one of the herd'. I hope they do a good job with it. I liked KOTOR and I think a longer version with a persistant world, crafting, guilds and the like will be fun. And on those days where I don't feel like talking to anyone, I can do my own thing. Doesn't sound too bad to me.
It think a Star Wars MMO is the perfect way to create a universe in chaos. Lots of beings with conflicting goals attempting to carve out their niche and influence the surrounding planets and galaxies in the manner they deem desirable.
And, in the Star Wars movie, there was quite a bit of single player stuff, but often two, three or more people would get together to accomplish a goal. (Having said that I was a little disheartened to learn that players could have pet(s?) to accompany them.)
I think it is perfect MMO material.
Yes, you might possibly write some of that code that in a single player game, but I don't think you could recreate the randomness of actual player decisions within the game.
Also, the possibility of massive battles (somewhat similar to Planetside) in space and on the ground make me smile! (I hope Bioware goes in that direction.)
Some people just like playing a game with other people, trading, chatting, crafting stuff for others, making a name for themselves, running huge epic quests and sharing that experience with others. It's kinda like drinking; sometimes it's just more fun with friends.
I couldn't agree more. All I am saying is that they keep saying this is an MMO but it has no MMO elements. I posed the question to have this discussion be more interactive than to come right out and say, "This isn't an MMO." Discussion, that's what this forum is all about, no?
Anyways, I kept telling many of you that your answers don't answer the quesiton.
Example:
Me: Starcraft 2 is an MMORPG.
You: How is it an MMORPG and not an RTS?
Me: Because Blizzard wanted to make an MMO.
That doesn't really answer the question. I'm hoping to show some of you (who are somehow diehard fans of this game when it isn't even in alpha yet) that they are going down a road of making a single player game (which won't be cureable if they go too far into development). I eagerly look forward to this game, but I don't want to sit there a month in when we have all finished the story (and maybe multiple ones) and go, "Damn, what is there to do but quit for now "
How many MMOs must come out that fail? Shouldn't we be giving them some positive feedback to let them know that they need to actually make an MMO? Or are too many of you just wanting this to be a single player game and don't really care whether or not this is actually an MMO (which is fine, but let's not use false terms)?
______________________ Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
I couldn't agree more. All I am saying is that they keep saying this is an MMO but it has no MMO elements. I posed the question to have this discussion be more interactive than to come right out and say, "This isn't an MMO." Discussion, that's what this forum is all about, no?
Anyways, I kept telling many of you that your answers don't answer the quesiton. Example: Me: Starcraft 2 is an MMORPG. You: How is it an MMORPG and not an RTS? Me: Because Blizzard wanted to make an MMO.
That doesn't really answer the question. I'm hoping to show some of you (who are somehow diehard fans of this game when it isn't even in alpha yet) that they are going down a road of making a single player game (which won't be cureable if they go too far into development). I eagerly look forward to this game, but I don't want to sit there a month in when we have all finished the story (and maybe multiple ones) and go, "Damn, what is there to do but quit for now " How many MMOs must come out that fail? Shouldn't we be giving them some positive feedback to let them know that they need to actually make an MMO? Or are too many of you just wanting this to be a single player game and don't really care whether or not this is actually an MMO (which is fine, but let's not use false terms)?
Maybe you could explain to me how SWTOR isn't an fps, or an rts?
The ONLY answer, because it's pretty much the ONLY info we have is that both LA and BioWare have themselves called it an MMO. BioWare spent fuck knows how much money setting up a new MMO studio, filled it with MMO developers to work on this game, if you still think that points at anything other than an MMO, quite frankly you need your head read.
...The spread of secondary and latterly of tertiary education has created a large population of people, often with well developed literary and scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to undertake analytical thought.
Thanks for starting to have a reasonable discussion xaldraxius
I've always felt the opposite. Do you think that if they make everyone "heroic" that it will cheapen the experience? What is heroism without non-heroism? I always felt that WoW, which has an awesome story, told it poorly. Everyone becoming the champion that killed all the evil bosses makes it so that no one really did anything in my opinion. I always envisioned the first MMO to have a good story to be more of a "Quest for everyone" kind of deal. Suppose there was some hard-to-solve mystery that everyone could help solve. The collective wisdom might prevail, or some single person might save the day with the answer. Sure this system has a lot of problems, but it seems as though it brings the community together under the umbrella of the story. I agree with having an individual story for everyone's own character, but this game seems as though everyone will play there own story (which is extremely similar for similarly-classed players) and there will never be any actual content or activities for people to do together (besides chatting).
The thing that was so magical about early MMOs was the community. MMOs are nothing without community. I am concerned that this game won't promote community (ex: SWG, UO, Everquest, DAoC, etc.). It seems that WoW turned the genre into Diablo where players don't really depend upon each other. For example, if you started up a private server and were the only one playing, you could successfully play most of WoW. You couldn't do that with many of the pre-WoW games.
______________________ Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
I couldn't agree more. All I am saying is that they keep saying this is an MMO but it has no MMO elements. I posed the question to have this discussion be more interactive than to come right out and say, "This isn't an MMO." Discussion, that's what this forum is all about, no?
Anyways, I kept telling many of you that your answers don't answer the quesiton. Example: Me: Starcraft 2 is an MMORPG. You: How is it an MMORPG and not an RTS? Me: Because Blizzard wanted to make an MMO.
That doesn't really answer the question. I'm hoping to show some of you (who are somehow diehard fans of this game when it isn't even in alpha yet) that they are going down a road of making a single player game (which won't be cureable if they go too far into development). I eagerly look forward to this game, but I don't want to sit there a month in when we have all finished the story (and maybe multiple ones) and go, "Damn, what is there to do but quit for now " How many MMOs must come out that fail? Shouldn't we be giving them some positive feedback to let them know that they need to actually make an MMO? Or are too many of you just wanting this to be a single player game and don't really care whether or not this is actually an MMO (which is fine, but let's not use false terms)?
Maybe you could explain to me how SWTOR isn't an fps, or an rts?
The ONLY answer, because it's pretty much the ONLY info we have is that both LA and BioWare have themselves called it an MMO. BioWare spent fuck knows how much money setting up a new MMO studio, filled it with MMO developers to work on this game, if you still think that points at anything other than an MMO, quite frankly you need your head read.
Stop taking this so personally, lol. You probably really only like this game because of former associations (it's Star Wars and it's made by BioWare). Do you think that a requirement to have an MMO is to call it an "MMO" and to have a bunch of money?
Also, do you really think I'm suggesting that this is going to be an actual single player game sold as an MMO? It will obviously have servers and whatnot, but in theory it won't QUALIFY as an MMO because it will be lacking MMO content. Imagine if you logged into WoW but could only run around and that was it. No UI, no chat, no fighting, no menus...nothing but movement. Would that be an MMORPG?
You seem to think on an extremely literall level...
______________________ Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
I have a whole theory on persistance, but I'll give you the short version. What does persistance really mean? Does it just mean that the servers are online when you aren't, or is it something more? Let's examine WoW for example (since most people have played it). What is persistant about its world? Is Diablo 2 not just as persistant? The world always stays the same, but the WoW servers are online for a greater portion of the day.
What about the second part of the phrase - persistant world. Is a world just a map, or is it something more? I ask you these questions because it is my belief that the world portion of MMOs is being stripped away. We are playing Diablo 2 over and over instead of playing the role of a character in a living breathing world (which is what the early MMOs essentially were).
______________________ Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
Stop taking this so personally, lol. You probably really only like this game because of former associations (it's Star Wars and it's made by BioWare). Do you think that a requirement to have an MMO is to call it an "MMO" and to have a bunch of money?
Not taking it personal at all, just find it funny that when I see an MMO announcement, I take it to mean that it's an MMO being announced, not exactly rocket science is it.
Actually I thought kotor was a piece of shit, Mass Effect was average at best, so no, I'm not a huge BioWare fan, I pretty much hate LucasFarts and so far SWTOR looks pretty uninspiring to me, so you couldn't be more wrong. Here's what I do know though, when they jointly announce an MMO, produced by the same people that worked on UO and SWG, I'm pretty sure they're going to deliver an MMO.
Come back to me when Ferrari announce their new supercar, and release a moped.
...The spread of secondary and latterly of tertiary education has created a large population of people, often with well developed literary and scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to undertake analytical thought.
The question you asked isn't for every MMO development team, but specifically targets Bioware.
Either way, the question has already been answered. They wanted to continue the KOTOR story, by making an MMORPG they can make KOTOR 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and beyond. One of the developers stated this in the video that has been floating around gaming sites. The only video that I know of regarding The Old Republic.
The question you asked isn't for every MMO development team, but specifically targets Bioware. Either way, the question has already been answered. They wanted to continue the KOTOR story, by making an MMORPG they can make KOTOR 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and beyond. One of the developers stated this in the video that has been floating around gaming sites. The only video that I know of regarding The Old Republic.
No, it is very important. WoW and every MMO since WoW hasn't really been an MMO. The question they need to ask is, "What can we do with a massive amount of people? How can we make the players play with each other and have a good time?"
They should NOT be trying to figure out what kind of loot there will be or what single player story they will be adding. An MMO is about playing WITH a MASSIVE amount of other people. A MASSIVE amount of single player content does not constitute something players can play WITH each other.
I've seen the video and read all the interviews. They only talk about how much story content there is and occasionally meeting with other people.
Efefia, yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. They aren't making a real MMO but are marketing it as such (and wrapping it up as such). It would be like Linux releasing a new distro with the title "Windows". I'm saying there is a huge problem with this genre, because it is being changed into something that it wasn't meant to be.
______________________ Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
Originally posted by demalus Thanks for starting to have a reasonable discussion xaldraxius I've always felt the opposite. Do you think that if they make everyone "heroic" that it will cheapen the experience? What is heroism without non-heroism? I always felt that WoW, which has an awesome story, told it poorly. Everyone becoming the champion that killed all the evil bosses makes it so that no one really did anything in my opinion. I always envisioned the first MMO to have a good story to be more of a "Quest for everyone" kind of deal. Suppose there was some hard-to-solve mystery that everyone could help solve. The collective wisdom might prevail, or some single person might save the day with the answer. Sure this system has a lot of problems, but it seems as though it brings the community together under the umbrella of the story. I agree with having an individual story for everyone's own character, but this game seems as though everyone will play there own story (which is extremely similar for similarly-classed players) and there will never be any actual content or activities for people to do together (besides chatting).
The thing that was so magical about early MMOs was the community. MMOs are nothing without community. I am concerned that this game won't promote community (ex: SWG, UO, Everquest, DAoC, etc.). It seems that WoW turned the genre into Diablo where players don't really depend upon each other. For example, if you started up a private server and were the only one playing, you could successfully play most of WoW. You couldn't do that with many of the pre-WoW games.
If, and this is a big if, they can keep the content fresh, and the storyline evolving, with no true 'good has won the day' kind of ending, then I can see the game going beyond the linear 'themepark' kind of game that WoW has corrupted the world of MMO's into. What I liked best about Asheron's Call, which was my favorite MMO of all, was that every month the story evolved. New things were added, and the story, which did it's best to involve everyone of every level, continued to grow. The devs have to understand that to be a good MMO the game will never be 'finished'. If one story ends, a new one will have to begin. Like looking at the Star Wars novels and graphic novels, the story doesn't end where the movies do, it continues on. New heroes are introduced, new villains, new intrigues, and even though it still maintains the same general theme, it evolves. That's what I want, and I think Bioware can do it. That's why I am glad this is an MMO and not a single player game.
I know my opinion of a good MMO and other peoples may be radically different, so I am not really arguing for anything here, just saying how I would like the game to be.
So are you saying that MMOs suck now because they aren't sandbox RPG like SWG and UO once was? Shit we all know that, developers found a bigger market, so they will never go the route of 'create your own content thru roplay" like the old days. They are in a way, massively single player games online, but they are still much bigger than any single player game will ever be. The definition of MMO has been defined by Wow.
Stop taking this so personally, lol. You probably really only like this game because of former associations (it's Star Wars and it's made by BioWare). Do you think that a requirement to have an MMO is to call it an "MMO" and to have a bunch of money?
Not taking it personal at all, just find it funny that when I see an MMO announcement, I take it to mean that it's an MMO being announced, not exactly rocket science is it.
Actually I thought kotor was a piece of shit, Mass Effect was average at best, so no, I'm not a huge BioWare fan, I pretty much hate LucasFarts and so far SWTOR looks pretty uninspiring to me, so you couldn't be more wrong. Here's what I do know though, when they jointly announce an MMO, produced by the same people that worked on UO and SWG, I'm pretty sure they're going to deliver an MMO.
Come back to me when Ferrari announce their new supercar, and release a moped.
Why do you even post if you have nothing constructive to say? You probably never even played KOTOR or Mass Effect, you're just one of those people that sees a game by a company they don't like and completely hates it, without even playing it. Both of those games were HUGE breakthroughs for the RPG genre, HUGE. They took precedence over franchises like Final Fantasy, because they were so innovative and pulled the player into the story as if they were living out their favorite character in their favorite film. The awards don't lie, Bioware has time and again won awards for breakthrough RPG, RPG of the year, etc. They have proven themselves worthy (over probably every other game company that has or is making an MMORPG), to make an MMORPG. And with that they bring the Bioware touch, compelling stories, a game that truly puts you right in the middle of the action. Innovation, it's just what the MMORPG genre needs right now, and there's no other company better than Bioware to bring it to the table.
I find it very hard to believe you even played those games, you're just a hater, a troll, with nothing better to do than try to be a 'badass' on the internet. Spare us dude, no one wants to hear it.
Thanks for starting to have a reasonable discussion xaldraxius
I've always felt the opposite. Do you think that if they make everyone "heroic" that it will cheapen the experience? What is heroism without non-heroism? I always felt that WoW, which has an awesome story, told it poorly. Everyone becoming the champion that killed all the evil bosses makes it so that no one really did anything in my opinion. I always envisioned the first MMO to have a good story to be more of a "Quest for everyone" kind of deal. Suppose there was some hard-to-solve mystery that everyone could help solve. The collective wisdom might prevail, or some single person might save the day with the answer. Sure this system has a lot of problems, but it seems as though it brings the community together under the umbrella of the story. I agree with having an individual story for everyone's own character, but this game seems as though everyone will play there own story (which is extremely similar for similarly-classed players) and there will never be any actual content or activities for people to do together (besides chatting).
The thing that was so magical about early MMOs was the community. MMOs are nothing without community. I am concerned that this game won't promote community (ex: SWG, UO, Everquest, DAoC, etc.). It seems that WoW turned the genre into Diablo where players don't really depend upon each other. For example, if you started up a private server and were the only one playing, you could successfully play most of WoW. You couldn't do that with many of the pre-WoW games.
If, and this is a big if, they can keep the content fresh, and the storyline evolving, with no true 'good has won the day' kind of ending, then I can see the game going beyond the linear 'themepark' kind of game that WoW has corrupted the world of MMO's into. What I liked best about Asheron's Call, which was my favorite MMO of all, was that every month the story evolved. New things were added, and the story, which did it's best to involve everyone of every level, continued to grow. The devs have to understand that to be a good MMO the game will never be 'finished'. If one story ends, a new one will have to begin. Like looking at the Star Wars novels and graphic, the story doesn't end where the movies do, it continues on. New heroes are introduced, new villains, new intrigues, and even though it still maintains the same general theme, it evolves. That's what I want, and I think Bioware can do it. That's why I am glad this is an MMO and not a single player game.
I know my opinion of a good MMO and other peoples may be radically different, so I am not really arguing for anything here, just saying how I would like the game to be.
You see, I agree completely with that. The problem is this though: What is this game about? Is it about playing with other players, or is it about playing your story? I'm a BioWare fan, a Star Wars fan, and an MMO fan...but I just don't think they understand what an MMO really means. It isn't just allowing a bunch of players to play the same game at the same time. It is all about playing WITH all of these people. The players should really be the heart of the game. I don't think story is a bad thing, but it seems like that is all that there is going to be, which wouldn't be bad if it were really a single player game. Like I've said, I don't want to play through the story in a month and watch everyone become disappointed that there isn't anything else to do. An MMO should be continuous, there should be no such thing as an "endgame". That is a perversion upon this genre.
______________________ Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
Stop taking this so personally, lol. You probably really only like this game because of former associations (it's Star Wars and it's made by BioWare). Do you think that a requirement to have an MMO is to call it an "MMO" and to have a bunch of money?
Not taking it personal at all, just find it funny that when I see an MMO announcement, I take it to mean that it's an MMO being announced, not exactly rocket science is it.
Actually I thought kotor was a piece of shit, Mass Effect was average at best, so no, I'm not a huge BioWare fan, I pretty much hate LucasFarts and so far SWTOR looks pretty uninspiring to me, so you couldn't be more wrong. Here's what I do know though, when they jointly announce an MMO, produced by the same people that worked on UO and SWG, I'm pretty sure they're going to deliver an MMO.
Come back to me when Ferrari announce their new supercar, and release a moped.
Why do you even post if you have nothing constructive to say? You probably never even played KOTOR or Mass Effect, you're just one of those people that sees a game by a company they don't like and completely hates it, without even playing it. Both of those games were HUGE breakthroughs for the RPG genre, HUGE. They took precedence over franchises like Final Fantasy, because they were so innovative and pulled the player into the story as if they were living out their favorite character in their favorite film. The awards don't lie, Bioware has time and again won awards for breakthrough RPG, RPG of the year, etc. They have proven themselves worthy (over probably every other game company that has or is making an MMORPG), to make an MMORPG. And with that they bring the Bioware touch, compelling stories, a game that truly puts you right in the middle of the action. Innovation, it's just what the MMORPG genre needs right now, and there's no other company better than Bioware to bring it to the table.
I find it very hard to believe you even played those games, you're just a hater, a troll, with nothing better to do than try to be a 'badass' on the internet. Spare us dude, no one wants to hear it.
You haven't read what I have said. For the record, Kotor is my favorite game
I love the story. I don't play single player games except ones with really great stories. I like multiplayer games and MMOs. This is not going to be a real MMO though, and I think it is a shame given such an awesome franchise.
Edit: Haha, I'm dumb. Thought you meant me! I love KOTOR though
______________________ Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
So are you saying that MMOs suck now because they aren't sandbox RPG like SWG and UO once was? Shit we all know that, developers found a bigger market, so they will never go the route of 'create your own content thru roplay" like the old days. They are in a way, massively single player games online, but they are still much bigger than any single player game will ever be. The definition of MMO has been defined by Wow.
No no no! Not true!
How many post-WoW games have seen WoW's success? You can't judge MMOs by WoW. Here is the problem: most MMOs have bad quality (but good philosophy). Then WoW came along and stuck Diablo 2 in with an EXTREMELY polished and high-quality version of older MMOs and people liked it because they liked Diablo 2 (it's more like Diablo 2 than an MMO). You see, MMOs are about the PLAYERS, the COMMUNITY. The early MMOs wouldn't have been successful had there not been 200k players on average.
I'm not saying this game should be SWG or even a sandbox. I'm saying it should focus on players, community and cool things players can do together. That is why MMOs are a success. Most people only play WoW because there are no better alternatives and that is where their friends are (most people that I know - I know it is subjective, but I think many of you have had the same experience).
______________________ Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
OK, you are giving pretty poor reasons. It is also possible that I have phrased my question incorrectly. Why should this game be an MMO instead of a single player game? What does making it an MMO add?
Now, obviously MMOs make more money (which has interesting implications, no?), and they obviously wanted to make an MMO. Those two reasons don't explain why this game is an MMO instead of a single player game.
plain and simple, 4 reasons
a) because many people wanted a KOTOR MMO (it's been talked about since 2004)
b) because BioWare wanted to do an MMO
c) because SWG failed to draw in as many people as Lucas Arts thinks Star Wars is capable of drawing in, and they wanted another shot.
4) MMOs have a bigger draw over a longer period of time than single player games.
So are you saying that MMOs suck now because they aren't sandbox RPG like SWG and UO once was? Shit we all know that, developers found a bigger market, so they will never go the route of 'create your own content thru roplay" like the old days. They are in a way, massively single player games online, but they are still much bigger than any single player game will ever be. The definition of MMO has been defined by Wow.
No no no! Not true!
How many post-WoW games have seen WoW's success? You can't judge MMOs by WoW. Here is the problem: most MMOs have bad quality (but good philosophy). Then WoW came along and stuck Diablo 2 in with an EXTREMELY polished and high-quality version of older MMOs and people liked it because they liked Diablo 2 (it's more like Diablo 2 than an MMO). You see, MMOs are about the PLAYERS, the COMMUNITY. The early MMOs wouldn't have been successful had there not been 200k players on average.
I'm not saying this game should be SWG or even a sandbox. I'm saying it should focus on players, community and cool things players can do together. That is why MMOs are a success. Most people only play WoW because there are no better alternatives and that is where their friends are (most people that I know - I know it is subjective, but I think many of you have had the same experience).
then why did wow become successful? the only thing it does is force raid content down peoples throats. The community? hah! wow's community is easily one of the worst.
Why do you even post if you have nothing constructive to say? You probably never even played KOTOR or Mass Effect, you're just one of those people that sees a game by a company they don't like and completely hates it, without even playing it. Both of those games were HUGE breakthroughs for the RPG genre, HUGE. They took precedence over franchises like Final Fantasy, because they were so innovative and pulled the player into the story as if they were living out their favorite character in their favorite film. The awards don't lie, Bioware has time and again won awards for breakthrough RPG, RPG of the year, etc. They have proven themselves worthy (over probably every other game company that has or is making an MMORPG), to make an MMORPG. And with that they bring the Bioware touch, compelling stories, a game that truly puts you right in the middle of the action. Innovation, it's just what the MMORPG genre needs right now, and there's no other company better than Bioware to bring it to the table. I find it very hard to believe you even played those games, you're just a hater, a troll, with nothing better to do than try to be a 'badass' on the internet. Spare us dude, no one wants to hear it.
I don't need to be a "badass" on the internet, I'm a badass in real life.
Seriously bad badass actually, I can put a bathroom out of commission for 24 hours after I've taken a shit
Come on now, honestly.... look up the word "opinion" you'll be amazed to see that the world is full of people with opinions that differ, it's a fantastic thing. Yes I thought Kotor was terrible, hated the combat, didn't think much of the graphics (although I played it about a year after it was released) but the story was very good. Mass Effect, too much twitch combat for me to even remotely enjoy it, again story and setting were great though. But honestly, if you don't want to see or hear such opinions, and you want to live in a pink, fluffy world where everyone thinks BioWare shit doesn't stink, go here: www.bioware.com I can recommend the off topic forum, all the cool BioWare kiss arses live in there.
...The spread of secondary and latterly of tertiary education has created a large population of people, often with well developed literary and scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to undertake analytical thought.
I couldn't agree more. All I am saying is that they keep saying this is an MMO but it has no MMO elements. I posed the question to have this discussion be more interactive than to come right out and say, "This isn't an MMO." Discussion, that's what this forum is all about, no?
Anyways, I kept telling many of you that your answers don't answer the quesiton. Example: Me: Starcraft 2 is an MMORPG. You: How is it an MMORPG and not an RTS? Me: Because Blizzard wanted to make an MMO.
That doesn't really answer the question. I'm hoping to show some of you (who are somehow diehard fans of this game when it isn't even in alpha yet) that they are going down a road of making a single player game (which won't be cureable if they go too far into development). I eagerly look forward to this game, but I don't want to sit there a month in when we have all finished the story (and maybe multiple ones) and go, "Damn, what is there to do but quit for now " How many MMOs must come out that fail? Shouldn't we be giving them some positive feedback to let them know that they need to actually make an MMO? Or are too many of you just wanting this to be a single player game and don't really care whether or not this is actually an MMO (which is fine, but let's not use false terms)?
Maybe you could explain to me how SWTOR isn't an fps, or an rts?
The ONLY answer, because it's pretty much the ONLY info we have is that both LA and BioWare have themselves called it an MMO. BioWare spent fuck knows how much money setting up a new MMO studio, filled it with MMO developers to work on this game, if you still think that points at anything other than an MMO, quite frankly you need your head read.
Stop taking this so personally, lol. You probably really only like this game because of former associations (it's Star Wars and it's made by BioWare). Do you think that a requirement to have an MMO is to call it an "MMO" and to have a bunch of money?
Also, do you really think I'm suggesting that this is going to be an actual single player game sold as an MMO? It will obviously have servers and whatnot, but in theory it won't QUALIFY as an MMO because it will be lacking MMO content. Imagine if you logged into WoW but could only run around and that was it. No UI, no chat, no fighting, no menus...nothing but movement. Would that be an MMORPG?
You seem to think on an extremely literall level...
For someone who has been insulting and borderline trolling for this whole discussion you sure are quick to point out someone else taking it "too seriously". I seriously hope you get suspended for your repeated attempts at trolling, which was horribly done.
I really hope you grow up, the world doesn't revolve around you, no matter how much you want it to. Almost everyone is excited over it being an MMO, which is one of the best things that could of happend for the SW universe. If you can't handle that, then I suggest going back to your xbox live where you belong.
~ ~
Had I the heavens' embroidered cloths, Enwrought with golden and silver light, The blue and the dim and the dark cloths Of night and light and the half light, I would spread the cloths under your feet: But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under your feet; Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
Comments
Some people just like playing a game with other people, trading, chatting, crafting stuff for others, making a name for themselves, running huge epic quests and sharing that experience with others. It's kinda like drinking; sometimes it's just more fun with friends.
{ Mod Delete }
Hey, you are saying that this is a single player game that they are making an MMO to make more money with. My question is: How do you know this is a single player game? Must be psychic powers as the game hasn't even entered the alpha stage yet. Speculate all you want, but don't present it as fact, and certainly don't get your panties in a bunch when no one else seems to agree with you.
Honestly, they have been clamoring on about a wonderful single-player story. What more proof do you need? Should I suddenly expect the game to be completely different than what they said it was going to be?
The ONLY mention of actual MMO content is the discussion on end game, which is frankly delusional. WoW made this work because WoW is more like Diablo 2 than an MMO. All games that have come out so far that have used ideas from WoW haven't seen big success.
Am I wrong to want a real Star Wars MMO to succeed? I think this makes me more on your side than you know..
I am kinda getting that guild wars type feeling from them, but we really don't know what the game will be like. We just have to wait and see what they come up with. They may come up with something great! Or they may come up with something that sucks. Either way we just have to have patience because in the end the market will decide what people are willing to pay for.
A good single player story line is what a lot of MMO's are missing in my opinion. Especially since Bioware has said that they are going to give you choices that you will have to make that will effect the direction of your character's story. This adds a replayability element that I realy haven't felt in an MMO. It also adds an element of individuality to your character that won't make you feel like 'just one of the herd'. I hope they do a good job with it. I liked KOTOR and I think a longer version with a persistant world, crafting, guilds and the like will be fun. And on those days where I don't feel like talking to anyone, I can do my own thing. Doesn't sound too bad to me.
It think a Star Wars MMO is the perfect way to create a universe in chaos. Lots of beings with conflicting goals attempting to carve out their niche and influence the surrounding planets and galaxies in the manner they deem desirable.
And, in the Star Wars movie, there was quite a bit of single player stuff, but often two, three or more people would get together to accomplish a goal. (Having said that I was a little disheartened to learn that players could have pet(s?) to accompany them.)
I think it is perfect MMO material.
Yes, you might possibly write some of that code that in a single player game, but I don't think you could recreate the randomness of actual player decisions within the game.
Also, the possibility of massive battles (somewhat similar to Planetside) in space and on the ground make me smile! (I hope Bioware goes in that direction.)
I couldn't agree more. All I am saying is that they keep saying this is an MMO but it has no MMO elements. I posed the question to have this discussion be more interactive than to come right out and say, "This isn't an MMO." Discussion, that's what this forum is all about, no?
Anyways, I kept telling many of you that your answers don't answer the quesiton.
Example:
Me: Starcraft 2 is an MMORPG.
You: How is it an MMORPG and not an RTS?
Me: Because Blizzard wanted to make an MMO.
That doesn't really answer the question. I'm hoping to show some of you (who are somehow diehard fans of this game when it isn't even in alpha yet) that they are going down a road of making a single player game (which won't be cureable if they go too far into development). I eagerly look forward to this game, but I don't want to sit there a month in when we have all finished the story (and maybe multiple ones) and go, "Damn, what is there to do but quit for now
"
How many MMOs must come out that fail? Shouldn't we be giving them some positive feedback to let them know that they need to actually make an MMO? Or are too many of you just wanting this to be a single player game and don't really care whether or not this is actually an MMO (which is fine, but let's not use false terms)?
______________________
Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
Well, to end this I'll say--- it's a persistent world, MUDs are not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMORPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUD
Maybe you could explain to me how SWTOR isn't an fps, or an rts?
The ONLY answer, because it's pretty much the ONLY info we have is that both LA and BioWare have themselves called it an MMO. BioWare spent fuck knows how much money setting up a new MMO studio, filled it with MMO developers to work on this game, if you still think that points at anything other than an MMO, quite frankly you need your head read.
...The spread of secondary and latterly of tertiary education has created a large population of people, often with well developed literary and scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to undertake analytical thought.
Thanks for starting to have a reasonable discussion xaldraxius
I've always felt the opposite. Do you think that if they make everyone "heroic" that it will cheapen the experience? What is heroism without non-heroism? I always felt that WoW, which has an awesome story, told it poorly. Everyone becoming the champion that killed all the evil bosses makes it so that no one really did anything in my opinion. I always envisioned the first MMO to have a good story to be more of a "Quest for everyone" kind of deal. Suppose there was some hard-to-solve mystery that everyone could help solve. The collective wisdom might prevail, or some single person might save the day with the answer. Sure this system has a lot of problems, but it seems as though it brings the community together under the umbrella of the story. I agree with having an individual story for everyone's own character, but this game seems as though everyone will play there own story (which is extremely similar for similarly-classed players) and there will never be any actual content or activities for people to do together (besides chatting).
The thing that was so magical about early MMOs was the community. MMOs are nothing without community. I am concerned that this game won't promote community (ex: SWG, UO, Everquest, DAoC, etc.). It seems that WoW turned the genre into Diablo where players don't really depend upon each other. For example, if you started up a private server and were the only one playing, you could successfully play most of WoW. You couldn't do that with many of the pre-WoW games.
______________________
Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
Maybe you could explain to me how SWTOR isn't an fps, or an rts?
The ONLY answer, because it's pretty much the ONLY info we have is that both LA and BioWare have themselves called it an MMO. BioWare spent fuck knows how much money setting up a new MMO studio, filled it with MMO developers to work on this game, if you still think that points at anything other than an MMO, quite frankly you need your head read.
Stop taking this so personally, lol. You probably really only like this game because of former associations (it's Star Wars and it's made by BioWare). Do you think that a requirement to have an MMO is to call it an "MMO" and to have a bunch of money?
Also, do you really think I'm suggesting that this is going to be an actual single player game sold as an MMO? It will obviously have servers and whatnot, but in theory it won't QUALIFY as an MMO because it will be lacking MMO content. Imagine if you logged into WoW but could only run around and that was it. No UI, no chat, no fighting, no menus...nothing but movement. Would that be an MMORPG?
You seem to think on an extremely literall level...
______________________
Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
I have a whole theory on persistance, but I'll give you the short version. What does persistance really mean? Does it just mean that the servers are online when you aren't, or is it something more? Let's examine WoW for example (since most people have played it). What is persistant about its world? Is Diablo 2 not just as persistant? The world always stays the same, but the WoW servers are online for a greater portion of the day.
What about the second part of the phrase - persistant world. Is a world just a map, or is it something more? I ask you these questions because it is my belief that the world portion of MMOs is being stripped away. We are playing Diablo 2 over and over instead of playing the role of a character in a living breathing world (which is what the early MMOs essentially were).
______________________
Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
Not taking it personal at all, just find it funny that when I see an MMO announcement, I take it to mean that it's an MMO being announced, not exactly rocket science is it.
Actually I thought kotor was a piece of shit, Mass Effect was average at best, so no, I'm not a huge BioWare fan, I pretty much hate LucasFarts and so far SWTOR looks pretty uninspiring to me, so you couldn't be more wrong. Here's what I do know though, when they jointly announce an MMO, produced by the same people that worked on UO and SWG, I'm pretty sure they're going to deliver an MMO.
Come back to me when Ferrari announce their new supercar, and release a moped.
...The spread of secondary and latterly of tertiary education has created a large population of people, often with well developed literary and scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to undertake analytical thought.
The question you asked isn't for every MMO development team, but specifically targets Bioware.
Either way, the question has already been answered. They wanted to continue the KOTOR story, by making an MMORPG they can make KOTOR 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and beyond. One of the developers stated this in the video that has been floating around gaming sites. The only video that I know of regarding The Old Republic.
Here it is: www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/starwarstheoldrepublic/video/6199708
No, it is very important. WoW and every MMO since WoW hasn't really been an MMO. The question they need to ask is, "What can we do with a massive amount of people? How can we make the players play with each other and have a good time?"
They should NOT be trying to figure out what kind of loot there will be or what single player story they will be adding. An MMO is about playing WITH a MASSIVE amount of other people. A MASSIVE amount of single player content does not constitute something players can play WITH each other.
I've seen the video and read all the interviews. They only talk about how much story content there is and occasionally meeting with other people.
Efefia, yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. They aren't making a real MMO but are marketing it as such (and wrapping it up as such). It would be like Linux releasing a new distro with the title "Windows". I'm saying there is a huge problem with this genre, because it is being changed into something that it wasn't meant to be.
______________________
Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
If, and this is a big if, they can keep the content fresh, and the storyline evolving, with no true 'good has won the day' kind of ending, then I can see the game going beyond the linear 'themepark' kind of game that WoW has corrupted the world of MMO's into. What I liked best about Asheron's Call, which was my favorite MMO of all, was that every month the story evolved. New things were added, and the story, which did it's best to involve everyone of every level, continued to grow. The devs have to understand that to be a good MMO the game will never be 'finished'. If one story ends, a new one will have to begin. Like looking at the Star Wars novels and graphic novels, the story doesn't end where the movies do, it continues on. New heroes are introduced, new villains, new intrigues, and even though it still maintains the same general theme, it evolves. That's what I want, and I think Bioware can do it. That's why I am glad this is an MMO and not a single player game.
I know my opinion of a good MMO and other peoples may be radically different, so I am not really arguing for anything here, just saying how I would like the game to be.
So are you saying that MMOs suck now because they aren't sandbox RPG like SWG and UO once was? Shit we all know that, developers found a bigger market, so they will never go the route of 'create your own content thru roplay" like the old days. They are in a way, massively single player games online, but they are still much bigger than any single player game will ever be. The definition of MMO has been defined by Wow.
Not taking it personal at all, just find it funny that when I see an MMO announcement, I take it to mean that it's an MMO being announced, not exactly rocket science is it.
Actually I thought kotor was a piece of shit, Mass Effect was average at best, so no, I'm not a huge BioWare fan, I pretty much hate LucasFarts and so far SWTOR looks pretty uninspiring to me, so you couldn't be more wrong. Here's what I do know though, when they jointly announce an MMO, produced by the same people that worked on UO and SWG, I'm pretty sure they're going to deliver an MMO.
Come back to me when Ferrari announce their new supercar, and release a moped.
Why do you even post if you have nothing constructive to say? You probably never even played KOTOR or Mass Effect, you're just one of those people that sees a game by a company they don't like and completely hates it, without even playing it. Both of those games were HUGE breakthroughs for the RPG genre, HUGE. They took precedence over franchises like Final Fantasy, because they were so innovative and pulled the player into the story as if they were living out their favorite character in their favorite film. The awards don't lie, Bioware has time and again won awards for breakthrough RPG, RPG of the year, etc. They have proven themselves worthy (over probably every other game company that has or is making an MMORPG), to make an MMORPG. And with that they bring the Bioware touch, compelling stories, a game that truly puts you right in the middle of the action. Innovation, it's just what the MMORPG genre needs right now, and there's no other company better than Bioware to bring it to the table.
I find it very hard to believe you even played those games, you're just a hater, a troll, with nothing better to do than try to be a 'badass' on the internet. Spare us dude, no one wants to hear it.
If, and this is a big if, they can keep the content fresh, and the storyline evolving, with no true 'good has won the day' kind of ending, then I can see the game going beyond the linear 'themepark' kind of game that WoW has corrupted the world of MMO's into. What I liked best about Asheron's Call, which was my favorite MMO of all, was that every month the story evolved. New things were added, and the story, which did it's best to involve everyone of every level, continued to grow. The devs have to understand that to be a good MMO the game will never be 'finished'. If one story ends, a new one will have to begin. Like looking at the Star Wars novels and graphic, the story doesn't end where the movies do, it continues on. New heroes are introduced, new villains, new intrigues, and even though it still maintains the same general theme, it evolves. That's what I want, and I think Bioware can do it. That's why I am glad this is an MMO and not a single player game.
I know my opinion of a good MMO and other peoples may be radically different, so I am not really arguing for anything here, just saying how I would like the game to be.
You see, I agree completely with that. The problem is this though: What is this game about? Is it about playing with other players, or is it about playing your story? I'm a BioWare fan, a Star Wars fan, and an MMO fan...but I just don't think they understand what an MMO really means. It isn't just allowing a bunch of players to play the same game at the same time. It is all about playing WITH all of these people. The players should really be the heart of the game. I don't think story is a bad thing, but it seems like that is all that there is going to be, which wouldn't be bad if it were really a single player game. Like I've said, I don't want to play through the story in a month and watch everyone become disappointed that there isn't anything else to do. An MMO should be continuous, there should be no such thing as an "endgame". That is a perversion upon this genre.
______________________
Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
Not taking it personal at all, just find it funny that when I see an MMO announcement, I take it to mean that it's an MMO being announced, not exactly rocket science is it.
Actually I thought kotor was a piece of shit, Mass Effect was average at best, so no, I'm not a huge BioWare fan, I pretty much hate LucasFarts and so far SWTOR looks pretty uninspiring to me, so you couldn't be more wrong. Here's what I do know though, when they jointly announce an MMO, produced by the same people that worked on UO and SWG, I'm pretty sure they're going to deliver an MMO.
Come back to me when Ferrari announce their new supercar, and release a moped.
Why do you even post if you have nothing constructive to say? You probably never even played KOTOR or Mass Effect, you're just one of those people that sees a game by a company they don't like and completely hates it, without even playing it. Both of those games were HUGE breakthroughs for the RPG genre, HUGE. They took precedence over franchises like Final Fantasy, because they were so innovative and pulled the player into the story as if they were living out their favorite character in their favorite film. The awards don't lie, Bioware has time and again won awards for breakthrough RPG, RPG of the year, etc. They have proven themselves worthy (over probably every other game company that has or is making an MMORPG), to make an MMORPG. And with that they bring the Bioware touch, compelling stories, a game that truly puts you right in the middle of the action. Innovation, it's just what the MMORPG genre needs right now, and there's no other company better than Bioware to bring it to the table.
I find it very hard to believe you even played those games, you're just a hater, a troll, with nothing better to do than try to be a 'badass' on the internet. Spare us dude, no one wants to hear it.
You haven't read what I have said. For the record, Kotor is my favorite game
I love the story. I don't play single player games except ones with really great stories. I like multiplayer games and MMOs. This is not going to be a real MMO though, and I think it is a shame given such an awesome franchise.
Edit: Haha, I'm dumb. Thought you meant me! I love KOTOR though
______________________
Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
No no no! Not true!
How many post-WoW games have seen WoW's success? You can't judge MMOs by WoW. Here is the problem: most MMOs have bad quality (but good philosophy). Then WoW came along and stuck Diablo 2 in with an EXTREMELY polished and high-quality version of older MMOs and people liked it because they liked Diablo 2 (it's more like Diablo 2 than an MMO). You see, MMOs are about the PLAYERS, the COMMUNITY. The early MMOs wouldn't have been successful had there not been 200k players on average.
I'm not saying this game should be SWG or even a sandbox. I'm saying it should focus on players, community and cool things players can do together. That is why MMOs are a success. Most people only play WoW because there are no better alternatives and that is where their friends are (most people that I know - I know it is subjective, but I think many of you have had the same experience).
______________________
Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
plain and simple, 4 reasons
a) because many people wanted a KOTOR MMO (it's been talked about since 2004)
b) because BioWare wanted to do an MMO
c) because SWG failed to draw in as many people as Lucas Arts thinks Star Wars is capable of drawing in, and they wanted another shot.
4) MMOs have a bigger draw over a longer period of time than single player games.
you sir just won this thread!
No no no! Not true!
How many post-WoW games have seen WoW's success? You can't judge MMOs by WoW. Here is the problem: most MMOs have bad quality (but good philosophy). Then WoW came along and stuck Diablo 2 in with an EXTREMELY polished and high-quality version of older MMOs and people liked it because they liked Diablo 2 (it's more like Diablo 2 than an MMO). You see, MMOs are about the PLAYERS, the COMMUNITY. The early MMOs wouldn't have been successful had there not been 200k players on average.
I'm not saying this game should be SWG or even a sandbox. I'm saying it should focus on players, community and cool things players can do together. That is why MMOs are a success. Most people only play WoW because there are no better alternatives and that is where their friends are (most people that I know - I know it is subjective, but I think many of you have had the same experience).
then why did wow become successful? the only thing it does is force raid content down peoples throats. The community? hah! wow's community is easily one of the worst.
I said why WoW was so successful just a few posts ago.
How many games like WoW have been successful I ask you? WoW is more like Diablo 2 than it is an MMO.
______________________
Give a man some fun and you entertain him for a day. Teach a man to make fun and you entertain him for a lifetime.
I don't need to be a "badass" on the internet, I'm a badass in real life.
Seriously bad badass actually, I can put a bathroom out of commission for 24 hours after I've taken a shit
Come on now, honestly.... look up the word "opinion" you'll be amazed to see that the world is full of people with opinions that differ, it's a fantastic thing. Yes I thought Kotor was terrible, hated the combat, didn't think much of the graphics (although I played it about a year after it was released) but the story was very good. Mass Effect, too much twitch combat for me to even remotely enjoy it, again story and setting were great though. But honestly, if you don't want to see or hear such opinions, and you want to live in a pink, fluffy world where everyone thinks BioWare shit doesn't stink, go here: www.bioware.com I can recommend the off topic forum, all the cool BioWare kiss arses live in there.
...The spread of secondary and latterly of tertiary education has created a large population of people, often with well developed literary and scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to undertake analytical thought.
Maybe you could explain to me how SWTOR isn't an fps, or an rts?
The ONLY answer, because it's pretty much the ONLY info we have is that both LA and BioWare have themselves called it an MMO. BioWare spent fuck knows how much money setting up a new MMO studio, filled it with MMO developers to work on this game, if you still think that points at anything other than an MMO, quite frankly you need your head read.
Stop taking this so personally, lol. You probably really only like this game because of former associations (it's Star Wars and it's made by BioWare). Do you think that a requirement to have an MMO is to call it an "MMO" and to have a bunch of money?
Also, do you really think I'm suggesting that this is going to be an actual single player game sold as an MMO? It will obviously have servers and whatnot, but in theory it won't QUALIFY as an MMO because it will be lacking MMO content. Imagine if you logged into WoW but could only run around and that was it. No UI, no chat, no fighting, no menus...nothing but movement. Would that be an MMORPG?
You seem to think on an extremely literall level...
For someone who has been insulting and borderline trolling for this whole discussion you sure are quick to point out someone else taking it "too seriously". I seriously hope you get suspended for your repeated attempts at trolling, which was horribly done.
I really hope you grow up, the world doesn't revolve around you, no matter how much you want it to. Almost everyone is excited over it being an MMO, which is one of the best things that could of happend for the SW universe. If you can't handle that, then I suggest going back to your xbox live where you belong.
~ ~
Had I the heavens' embroidered cloths, Enwrought with golden and silver light, The blue and the dim and the dark cloths Of night and light and the half light, I would spread the cloths under your feet: But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under your feet; Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
Probably because LEC wants a SW MMO. If LEC wanted a single player RPG, they'd make that instead.
Karahandras also has a very good point - MMOs yield monthly subs, single player RPGs usually don't. Ka-ching!!
Who the hell is LEC?
Some Lex Luthor wannabe?