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How to improve MMO's
Aetherial
Member Posts: 103
From trying a lot of MMO’s over the past 5 years, pretty much all of them actually, and reading a lot of people’s complaints, it seems that a lot of people feel the same way I do about the current level of suckage infecting the whole genre.
This is just problem number 1...
(1) Less is more.
In MMO’s, less can sometimes be WAY more. There is nothing that kills my fun faster than a game being designed so that I look at a mini-map showing me where all the “Quest NPC’s” are or, in some cases, even giving me a map showing me where to go to complete the quest. Don’t even get me started on glowing ! or ? or whatever above the NPC’s heads. Or the pre-set NPC dialogues that I don’t even have to read… I just click on something at the bottom to accept a quest.
Most of the time, I don’t even have to know what I accepted. A quest tracker shows me whether I can do the quest, by color-coding it and giving me the level. Then it even summarizes my objectives for me. At the end of it all, I honestly have no idea why I just killed X# of MOB Y. I just know that I ran to the red dot on my mini-map, stood in one place, blasted away until my quest tracker told me I was done, then ran back to the green dot on my mini-map to get my reward, the same reward every other member of my class and level got. Then I get the next quest in the sequence. Lather, rinse, repeat, just like EVERY OTHER person in my level range are doing… all of us solo. The last 4 MMO’s I have tried have all followed this exact formula.
When I run out of green dots, I can rest easily knowing that one of my outstanding quests takes me to the next zone… where I have a mini-map full of green quest-bearing dots again.
Suggestion:
Make me find the quest-giving NPC’s. Make me have to meet certain conditions before they will offer me the quest. Make me have to figure out those conditions(!), either by logic, or by trial and error. Make me have to say the right things to continue a dialogue with an NPC, so that I have to actually pay attention. Make my actions have consequences I don’t already know (like faction hits)… or hell, just make them have any consequences!
Don’t have the game all played out for me… while I just follow a script… like everyone else.
So problem number 1 with MMO's today... they are WAY WAY WAY WAY too dumbed down, so that they are easily solo'd to max level. There is not nearly enough difference between the MMO and the old single player RPG to make them compelling.
Comments
I can think of nothing more tedious than going to every NPC in the game looking for the right one. Why would I want to interact with computer dialog that much? I'd rather go to the Dentist.
If this were a real life game, it would be, I threw a dime on the street somewhere in the City. Go find it. Who wants to play that game?
What I am talking about is hardly the same scale as finding a dime on the street.
The rest of my suggestion also said that some logic or thought should be a part of this.
Really though, do you *want* to do everything exactly the same way every one else, in the same order, for the same rewards.
There is no challenge whatsoever. There is no immersion, and there is no sense of accomplishment when everyone can, and does do the same thing, solo, and easily.
I honestly think that is where MMO's are falling apart. They are so dumbed down now that it just feels like you are playing out someone else's script.
I don't need a completely wide open sandbox, but I would like some variety, some choices, and some feeling that I discovered or accomplished something once in a while.
Its time for you my friend to start playing a sandbox game you obvious are fed up with themepark hehe.
Darkfall not yet released or RYZOM thats already life or EVE also up and running.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
People should have to pass some sort of intelliegence test before they are allowed to post on the internet...
First of all I almost agree with you, just not the part where I see you say you read lots of complaints, I am guessing you are only reading what you want to read and ignoring the rest/masses. If you truly read many complaints you would have noticed that people don't want to figure out things, they don't want to explore for items, they need to be guided if they are not guided all hell breaks loss, again proof is all over forums like this and similar.
There also seems to be allot of people who use excuses like they can't play 24/7 to achieve something and they really don't need to play a game for 24/7 but then the fear kicks in with those type of people cause imagine some other friend having the time and he might out lvl you, oh noessss we can't have that now ( but for some reason they think they need to rush thru the game, all a person needs is to have a little patients and even thats far to much to ask these day's as again forums like this proof that, well I hardly have time to play games in this genre and if I do it tops at about if lucky 2 hours a week, but you will never hear me complain about my limited game time as I play these games for entertainment and not as if they are a job, unlike a job with a MMORPG there is no time limit, what can't be done today can be done tomorrow/ next week, next month, it's MMORPG not a single player game
MMORPG's should be about the community and not you wanting to be a hero, again tons of games that offer you to be that hero and MMORPG use to be so much more.
Afcourse I still have hope on THAT MMORPG I will truly enjoy again, but my bet is that it can't even be in development due to the many tech. limitations we are still facing, perhaps in 3/5 years when a MMORPG starts it's development there is a much better change that MMORPG might attract the niche players as well as those who are completely burned out by current games or simply have burned out them-selfs due their play-style, something I have noticed seems to happen also allot.
Overall lack of patients (both side, developer/community) and jealousy (both side, developer/community) is what turned this genre of gaming into what it is today in my opinion.
I don't want to hunt for quest NPCs. It is no fun and it is lots of work. The fun is to kill stuff, hack-n-slash & get loot. Running around town to talk to everyone is just boring. There is a REASON why MMOs have features like indication of question NPCs.
Secondly, it is compelling enough to grow the market from a niche (essentially 1/2M of EQ players) to now what 20M.
Plus, if i need a group of 5 to kill the boss in a dungeon, it does not smell like a SP game to me. Quest NPC or not.
I think it is because I read boards from old-school games... which is what got me to thinking about why all MMO's these days totally suck.
I am by no means a hardcore raider or PvP'er. In fact, the only two MMORPG's that held my attention for more than 6 months were EQ and WoW... I stopped when the game devolved into endless, reptetive raiding. The sole purpose of which was to gear up for the next boring repetitive raid instance.
I just find it stupid to be spoon fed an unbelievably easy progression to max level... along with thousands of other soloers... all with the same equipment as me.
I am sure the pea-brain who thinks I don't have the necessary intelligence to post would LOVE my other idea about making better MMO's...
Bring back a serious, painful death penalty.
It actually makes you think. It makes teaming the path of least resistance. It makes people who take chances, and have guts... get the rewards. It makes your reputation in a game important!
More than any other factor, a serious death penalty is what brings the "MMO" to "RPG".
Level 6 I ran from Qeynos to Freeport. I had no map, everything was DEEEP red to me through all the zones. I had to constantly look around to make sure I wasn't in aggro range. It took 2 hours. It was the most tense, exciting MMO experience I had. Nothing that came after EQ ever provided me with that feeling again.
When dieing means nothing... you simply don't care if you do and that really takes away from the fun.
I'm not hardcore. I just want challenge, and social aspect to the game.
I would argue that a LOT of the growth you saw in the market co-incided with the explosion of presence on the net in general. It also coincided with huge leaps in technology that allowed Graphic 1st person MMO's to be popular in the first place.
I will grant you that, for many people, the "easy" factor is a big deal.
I just don't believe you need to describe, direct and script every single step in a progression to max level. I am not so sure that a game that is 90% quests is good when 90% of people all end up with the same gear and have all done the same things.
I think that a game can be made, with some of the qualities that made EQ a real challenge, without some of its frustrations.
When I first went to Solusek's eye... my group was one of the first to on our server to ever try getting there. It was exciting to even get there... and terrifying to try to progress deeper in the dungeon.
With MMO's these days, I get told exactly where to go and what to do and I have no hesitation to walk right up and do it. Once in a blue moon, I might die, but even then who cares, there is virtually no penalty.
How does anyone feel a sense of accomplishment in that scenario?
Sounds like original Everquest to me. It would be nice to see a game come out that would go back to a quest system similar to this.
I also would like to see multiple endings for the same quest. If the NPC merchant gives me a fancy ring to deliver to another NPC, I want the option to either keep said ring or sell it to another bidder. Depending on which I choose, the NPC could react indifferent says as well. If you include faction, it would make it even more interesting. Maybe the otehr merchants won't deal with you anymore, or ask higher prices. Maybe that NPC merchant could be afront for the local thieves guild and order a hit or something on you for stealing his stuff. Perhaps even (and I can't believe I'm typing this) he gives out a quest to a PVP minded player to take you down for stealing the ring.
It would also be far more interesting if maybe you received a tell or whisper from NPC's that might offer you a quest as you walk past or something. Sort of a compromise between talking to every NPC around and phantom exclamation marks appearing.
Oh and when someone asks me to deliver an urgent package and I forget about it until a week or so later, it would be nice if the NPC I hand it to notices I'm late as well.
Then I'm afraid you couldn't share your profound thoughts with us anymore, my friend.
It is (of course) based on the original EQ
There was much about that game that made it superior to anything out there now.
How about if I found an item that had an engraving on it that gave me a clue where it came from... maybe finding that NPC and giving him the item led to another quest, IF my faction with some group was high enough?
Maybe all we need is some more though put into the games, instead of companies devoting their time and resources to making more realistic looking water.
The way to improve MMO's is to convince developers to properly segment the market. The size of the current MMO market is 1 to 2 orders of magnitude larger than it was a decade ago. It is time that studios stop trying to take the 'a little something for everybody' player base away from WoW. It is not going to happen.
I do agree that the games do hold your hand too much, but a ! or ? isn't bad. I think an even bigger problem is that the quests feel too grindy. Fedex and Kill Collectors get old quickly.
Played: Runescape, World of Warcraft, Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning
Walking up to every NPC in the game is not "challenging" it's just time consuming. Why would clicking on every NPC in the game to find the right one be "immersive"? What's immersive about reading NPC dialog over and over till you find the right NPC? Nothing IMO.
I think it is because I read boards from old-school games... which is what got me to thinking about why all MMO's these days totally suck.
I am by no means a hardcore raider or PvP'er. In fact, the only two MMORPG's that held my attention for more than 6 months were EQ and WoW... I stopped when the game devolved into endless, reptetive raiding. The sole purpose of which was to gear up for the next boring repetitive raid instance.
I just find it stupid to be spoon fed an unbelievably easy progression to max level... along with thousands of other soloers... all with the same equipment as me.
I am sure the pea-brain who thinks I don't have the necessary intelligence to post would LOVE my other idea about making better MMO's...
Bring back a serious, painful death penalty.
It actually makes you think. It makes teaming the path of least resistance. It makes people who take chances, and have guts... get the rewards. It makes your reputation in a game important!
More than any other factor, a serious death penalty is what brings the "MMO" to "RPG".
Level 6 I ran from Qeynos to Freeport. I had no map, everything was DEEEP red to me through all the zones. I had to constantly look around to make sure I wasn't in aggro range. It took 2 hours. It was the most tense, exciting MMO experience I had. Nothing that came after EQ ever provided me with that feeling again.
When dieing means nothing... you simply don't care if you do and that really takes away from the fun.
I'm not hardcore. I just want challenge, and social aspect to the game.
Quest objective and npcs directions/arrows just plain suck, it can't get more unrealistic than this stuff. I like the way in LOTRO how npcs describe you how to go where you need to, feels good.
I agree with easy mode killing a lot of fun factor, people sometimes will even voluntarily die to access another place quicker! If you don't care about death then there's something wrong with your game, and in the end you just play like a turd knowing that whatever you do you'll get to top level anytime. Seems like carrots pwned stick. Sure, you first feel like a kid locked in a candy shop, but then hell! you'll just crave a bloody steak and the right to hunt your cow for it
Trouble is some major popular MMORPGs are focusing on easy solo ego trips, giving you lots of XP for very easy quests without challenge, so that you can get immediate satisfaction, then try alts, so stay longer in the game and pay your rent. That's good enough for some people (young/casual/mmorpg newbies) but in the end gets quickly boring for others (older/demanding/mmorpg veterans). Second category is the minority
Walking up to every NPC in the game is not "challenging" it's just time consuming. Why would clicking on every NPC in the game to find the right one be "immersive"? What's immersive about reading NPC dialog over and over till you find the right NPC? Nothing IMO.
Oblivion and Fallout 3 aren't immersive then
Walking up to every NPC in the game is not "challenging" it's just time consuming. Why would clicking on every NPC in the game to find the right one be "immersive"? What's immersive about reading NPC dialog over and over till you find the right NPC? Nothing IMO.
Oblivion and Fallout 3 aren't immersive then
Hey, I need to give 10 wolf pelts to Blern. Are you Blern? No? Ok.
Hey, Ineed to give 10 wolf pelts to Blern. Are you Blern? No? Ok.
Hey, I need to give 10 wolf pelts to Blern. Are you Blern? No? Ok.
Hey, I need to give 10 wolf pelts to Blern. Are you Blen? No? Ok.
Hey, I need to give 10 wolf pelts to Blern. Are you Blern? Yes? Hurray!
What? After I give you the wolf pelts, I need to report to Sogar? Ok.
Hey, I need to report to Sogar. Are you Sogar? No? Ok.
Hey, I need to report to Sogar. Are you Sogar? No? Ok......
Yea, real immersive.
What would be immersive would be doing something that changes the game world for all players, not talking to every NPC in the game to get cumputer generated dialog.
You did not fully read what I was trying to say. Which NPC's had quests would be based on logic, and clues that you get in game.
Again... I just don't want the game 100% scripted for me and have everyone doing the exact same things to progress levels.
I think this is an excellent point. Games that try to be everything to all people fail miserably.
Maybe what I want is another developer to take the EQ model and create a new game that is more hardcore PvE based.
Walking up to every NPC in the game is not "challenging" it's just time consuming. Why would clicking on every NPC in the game to find the right one be "immersive"? What's immersive about reading NPC dialog over and over till you find the right NPC? Nothing IMO.
Oblivion and Fallout 3 aren't immersive then
Hey, I need to give 10 wolf pelts to Blern. Are you Blern? No? Ok.
Hey, Ineed to give 10 wolf pelts to Blern. Are you Blern? No? Ok.
Hey, I need to give 10 wolf pelts to Blern. Are you Blern? No? Ok.
Hey, I need to give 10 wolf pelts to Blern. Are you Blen? No? Ok.
Hey, I need to give 10 wolf pelts to Blern. Are you Blern? Yes? Hurray!
What? After I give you the wolf pelts, I need to report to Sogar? Ok.
Hey, I need to report to Sogar. Are you Sogar? No? Ok.
Hey, I need to report to Sogar. Are you Sogar? No? Ok......
Yea, real immersive.
What would be immersive would be doing something that changes the game world for all players, not talking to every NPC in the game to get cumputer generated dialog.
I don't mind the debate... but at least try to come up with a reasonable counter-arguement to support your position.
I never said that NPC's should not have names displayed... which is clearly the case in your scenario above. Unless the player in question can't read, in which case the problems run deeper than what is going on in-game.
Yes, we are in the minority I believe. I do think there is a market out there. Even a re-release of the classic EQ would probably have enough of a following to support it... and that game was far from perfect.
As the poster above suggested... maybe it is time for developers to start seriously segmenting the MMO's. The most recent releases I have tried (AoC, WAR) were a couple of the most boring games I have ever played.
I think what you're getting at here is the core of why there's a growing demand for a good sandbox game. I don't think a true sandbox game could ever be a mainstream success, but I think a good hybrid game - where people can follow the questlines and the story if they want, or find their own way if they want - could and will eventually be a big hit.
I think what you're getting at here is the core of why there's a growing demand for a good sandbox game. I don't think a true sandbox game could ever be a mainstream success, but I think a good hybrid game - where people can follow the questlines and the story if they want, or find their own way if they want - could and will eventually be a big hit.
I agree with you.
Start with a sandbox, and then build in some goals and progression of story. Just don't hammer it down our throats, and make it something that has to be discovered or figured out.
I like many of the various features you dislike. I get annoyed very quickly having to click on 30 npc's only to find out 28 of them have nothing useful to say.
I truly loathe when a quest tells me to go and find something or someone without giving me a friggin' clue where to look. What am I to do, search the planet? No, I'll ask someone who might have some information on where I should look. Hey! Why not just ask the guy who actually wants this done? Seriously, any quest I got that just said, "Please find so and so for me" without any more info, I wouldn't bother with.
But, to each his own. How would you feel about an option to turn that stuff off for those who don't want it, but leave it on for those that do?