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Rolling a Magus? Allow me to share my opinion.
DoktorTeufel
Member UncommonPosts: 413
We Magi sure look awesome. We glide around on our discs, wearing gilded robes and Gothic plate mail, summoning daemons, and casting vivid, purple-colored spells that swirl about menacingly and generally look pretty freakin' sweet. On top of that (and in spite of what I'm about to tell you), they're challenging and fun to play.
But how does the Magus really measure up as a damage dealer? I'm going to make this as succinct as possible, so you don't have to read through a novel to get the gist of what I'm trying to say.
The short answer is: We don't measure up. We need help. We deal far less damage than a Sorcerer or Bright Wizard, have absolutely no superior utility abilities to compensate, and our survivability is barely higher than the squishiest squishy (and then only versus melee). Many WAR players hold many different opinions about the Magus, and I'm not going to address all the other opinions here, but I'll cover a few.
Oftentimes, people claim that Magus is "defensive DPS"; a "support class"; an "area denial class"; or some such. These are simply justifications for the fact that, even before you take Dark Magic or Combustion into consideration (those are Sorcerers' and Bright Wizards' backlash traits), their base spell damage is, on average, 50% higher than the Magus' regardless of spec or gear setup. That can be seen plainly on WARDB or Allakhazam ability tooltips.
This includes single-target, instant casts, DoTs, AoEs, everything. Every basic technique the Magus has for dealing damage is also possessed by BWs and Sorcs, except theirs are far more powerful.
WITH high Combustion or Dark Magic, Bright Wizards and Sorcerers do at least 100% more damage than the Magus. Because friendly healers know this, Sorcerers and Bright Wizards will receive far more healing than a Magus, essentially negating the backlash disadvantage in team play (which is what WAR is all about), and turning those superior classes into incredible damage dealing machines.
On top of all that, BWs and Sorcs can cast their spells from 100 feet, while many of Magus' best spells must be cast from 65 feet or even closer. This greatly decreases our survivability in comparison, since we must approach closer to the front line in battle, or even go beyond it.
This would all be well and good, but Magi receive no extra benefits to compensate for the low DPS (despite Magus being a RDPS class). Roots? Sorcs and BWs have them. Knockdowns? They have those too. Knockback? Yep. Disrupts? Check. Group buffs? Sorcs and BWs have more than Magi. Self-buffs? They actually have more than Magi. Snares? You betcha, and better ones.
The only things we have that Sorcs and BWs don't have is a daemonic turret pet. And that pet does completely unnoticeable damage, no matter your spec, gear, or which one you're using. The best debuff Magus pets can do is... -5% crit chance to the affected target. A joke, basically.
We do get to choose between two powerful abilities at ~Rank 30: Chaotic Rift (65ft AoE snare/draw-in) and Perils of the Warp (deals light damage to the affected target when they cast a healing or DD spell). But that's it.
People often tell me (and others who share my opinion) that if I think Magus is underpowered or broken, I don't know how to play Magus properly. I say that's bollocks, an attempt to discredit someone's opinion out of hand for an arbitrary reason. The sad fact is, the more skilled you become at playing Magus and RvR in general, the more clearly you can see its obvious shortcomings. Countless Order and Destruction players (not just me or other Magus players) believe the same thing.
My advice is: Roll something else first. Wait until Mythic tweaks and buffs Magus to roll one, if they ever do so (they might nerf Sorcs and BWs, or do nothing at all).
That's my opinion, take it or leave it. I banged this out in hopes of steering people away from my own current frustrating situation: Continue tolerating a badly pre-nerfed class, or roll an alt and put it on ice (see sig).
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
Comments
The fact that the exact same complaints exist about Engineer which is Order's mirror class of Magus should tell most sane, unbiased and unimpressionable players that where there is smoke there is fire, and something is wrong with these two classes. They aren't beyond repair and under certain circumstances they can perform pretty well. But they really don't stack up to some other classes.
Quite right. Nearly all of the complaints about Magus apply equally to Engineer, though they're not perfect mirrors of each other, so you're going to get slightly different comparisons for some ability categories.
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
I consistantly see the Engineers outdamaging everyone, even the Wizards. I can't say the same for the Magus though.
I also think in RvR situations the Magus gets targeted right away by the opposing team, who sees the robes and thinks "kill the squishy caster". Where as the Engineers on first glance could be mistaken for an Ironbreaker, and left alone to wreak their AoE havoc.
There are a few classes that seem underpowered at different tiers. Early on the squig herder and shadow warrior. They get much better come T3, maybe the same is true for the Magus.
If you see anyone out dps'ing a wizard or sorcerer you know that wizard or sorcerer wasn't trying.
i can rack up anywhere between 40-100k dmg in one scenario as a sorcerer.. when i'm trying :P
Temple of Isha is great.. just rain down ae spells from up on the cliffs.. ooo watch them die and my dmg roll up
Make a difference!
Have originally rolled an Engineer at launch I can vouch that they are in the same sinking boat as the Magus. To make matters worse Mythic has said nothing about fixing them. Sad too as both classes have alot of style and potential.
Easiest way to lodge a protest is to play another class. When Mythic notices nobody playing a class they will re-think it and come up with a working model.
Personally.. i hate arrows :P I say remove arrows from the game! Oh and witch hunters too.. useless class.. :P
Make a difference!
I don't understand why your comparing your class to a BW or Sorc?
You should not do as much dmg as a BW or Sorc ,
Okay, while I agree with your statement about Magi and engineers requiring some work, I completely disagree with your assessment based on damage. BW and Sorc are supposed to be the damage casters. (period) Magi and engineer are not meant to compare in dps. Where they need work is in their ability to support the group, which the definately lack. My personal opinion is that currently the game has too many abilities built into every single class. For example, and only example, take knockback: as far as I can tell, every class has some form of knockback available to them either as a core or mastery ability. That is just rediculous. You could go on to talk about the ability point saps, snares, etc in the same manner because everyone seems to have the ability to spec to achieve these skills to some degree.
So, why do I say this? Well, I think they need to thin the skills out. You don't need to give classes 1-2 skills or tactics every damned level. Then they could redistribute some skills into the utility classes like the engineers and magi to make them have a role (which they currently lack IMO). Sadly I think Mythic is going to nerf and buff skills rather than create a more meaningful core and mastery system. Also, I don't think that players would want to completely lose skills either, even if it were better for the game. People like having a class that can do "everything." Which nearly every class can do now to some degree.
Magi and engineer do not do what they are supposed to do currently. They should be able to literally deny an enemy territory IMO. In other words, if they have time to set up a defense, the opposition should have a very hard time bypassing the defense short of avoiding it all together. That defense should not take 3 seconds to set up either. They should have to rely on their group to give them time to setup defense and and allow the group to fall back to it, or whatever strategy they choose.
Lastly, your point brings up another problem with the current scenario and PQ system. The current system essentially rewards damage over team play. I suspect this is more of the reason you perceive a lack of healing. As my main is a zealot, if I don't do a decent amount of damage during a scenario, I get almost nothing for renown. Its actually a flawed system. Sure, if my group is the only one around, they stick together and kill the same targets (guild groups), I get good renown if I only heal. However, most PUGs don't do that and healers are forced to do damage. Nay sayers, say what you want, but the reason you do scenarios in PUGs is not necessarily to win as a team, it is for individual renown and xp. I learned around level 20 that if I just healed, and we won, I got good xp and crappy renown. If I did both, and we won, I got good xp and renown. Same thing happens with contribution in PQ's. If I am the only healer and only heal the entire PQ, I will rank last in contribution every single time. Of course, if I didn't heal, the PQ would not get past the second or third stage and nobody would get any loot. Point is: PC's are not stupid...
Easiest way to lodge a protest is to play another class. When Mythic notices nobody playing a class they will re-think it and come up with a working model.
Personally.. i hate arrows :P I say remove arrows from the game! Oh and witch hunters too.. useless class.. :P
Yeah thats the easiest way. Its also the least effective way to make Mythic aware of the problem.
You are aware of the help function within the game right? Have you ever clicked that button called FEEDBACK and typed something into it? Of course by all means take the long winded approach and just hope that thousands of other players do the same thing as you and also hope that over the coming months Mythic might possibly notice something.
I would personally click the Feedback button and tell them
I dont play the classes but i will say when played rite in sceanrios they do very good damage.I have a few magus' in my guild that are always on top of the damage charts.Theres a few engineers in my tier thati hate seeing in scenarios becasue they dish out crazy damage as well.But most of the time your rite they are just OK.But when played correectly they do allot of damage.
Darkfall - Sick
Earthrise - Sick
I don't think he's arguing about dmg overall having to equal an actual focused ranged DPS, but for the support DPS characters to at least have some sort of function compared to them. Right now, from my own experiences, they have nothing that really benefits playing one of the support classes over the raw ranged DPS. You could argue that they get a pet, some more utility spells, etc., but, like what the OP mentioned, what good are they when they barely have any impact?
That last paragraph reminded me of something that keeps happening with my Gobbo Shaman when I am in PQ's. They generally reward you for the contribution you make towards the quest which is usually the number of things you killed while you participated in it......healing team mates doesnt seem to apply much as far as I can tell.
The ability "Bunch o Waagh" seems to play a heavy roll in almost guaranteeing that I come first in these quests. Because it deals a constant stream of damage every second, if I cast it when a creatures health is low I can ensure that I will virtually always deal the killing blow. It basicly means that I can claim the credit for the kill even when its the fighters and heavy damage dealers that should be getting it. Its very sneaky and I really shouldnt do it.......but its the gobbo way I guess (shrugs).
In fact I must admit that I do rather like playing the shaman as he seems a bit over-powered to me. Despite my low armour I seem to be able to outlast many opponents with my heals and yet I can dish out some pretty decent damage too. The only class who ever gives me any hassle seems to be the Ironbreaker......damn stunties!
I think the Engs and Mags need to realize that if they spec into single target damage trees its a little pointless and you should reroll BW/sorc if you want to pew pew one target. On my Mag i have my healer friend and we rape groups of people with my massise AoE attacks and i can top dps charts. Its all about play style and some luck like if they are all on a tank i can sneek up and just unleash a lot of DoTs and stuff. i might not instant kill someone but i can put tons of pressure on healers with the massive pain i can bring! just my 2 cents and im having fun!
I rolled as a magus only because they are a very underplayed class on my server. Its fun being the only magus in a scenario.
But that being said i can generally place in top 4 for damage on destruction side. But that really depends on how long i can live. If a healer can keep me up i can spam AoE's and DoT's. But most of the time a single witch hunter will just chase me down.
I think a nice benefit to a magus would be a moveing pet, with a shorter duration. In most PQ's and scenarios i tend to not even cast my pet because ill either die to fast for it to be any benefit, or have the battle get out of range for him to fight.
By "massive pain" you mean you're awesome glean magic, which does 240 over 20 seconds combined with your pandemonium which does about 350 over 15 and your PBAOE that does around 300 over 9 and not to mention your annoying pet which takes 110 action points.
I'm sorry, but the dots just don't scale properly and the AP point costs associated with the Magus. ALL THE DOT DAMAGE COMBINED MIGHT take off 15% of an enemies life. The "only" good legitimate AOE spec is Daemon spec, and you quite literally need a personal healer, and even then what's the point?. It's insanely easy to top DPS charts with a magus, it doesn't mean you did jack. Anybody can run around tossing single target and AOE dots ( warlock in wow anyone) and think they are awesome.
We STILL LACK a massive amount of utility and survivability ( engineers, sorry... you have more survivability than a magus).
A quick fix for the magus, would be to lower AP point cost across the board, have all turrets/pets INSTANT cast regardless of spec AND cost atleast half the action points. 110 action points for a near worthless turret is just stupid as hell. Increase damage and dots in general and actually have your INTELLECT work. Engineers damage is increased by ballistics, Magus is supposed to increase by intellect, it is proven that it ONLY does on one spell.
Instant pet summon doesn't work half the time, and if it does it is usually late coming.
The spec trees are horrible and just don't seem to compliment each other.
ONE bright wizard dot does MORE THAN ALL magus dot's combined INCLUDING pet damage. HOW THE HELL is this balanced?. I am not asking to do as much damage as bright wizard, but damnit, if you say that a class is UTILITY... give us some god damn UTILITY that is worth having. As it stands, we are just lumps of crap floating around on a target. We get one ability that sucks in people. Wow, yeah... great... we suck in people to our location, so that our team mates can wreck face while the witch hunter you sucked in destroys you in their usual 4-5 hits.
Right now, the class, in general is 90% worthless.
The only people who seem to be blind to how broke the class is are those who run around like tards going "LAWL DURRR, LOOK AT ME I GOT TOP DAMAGE DURRR".
No kidding. I've seen screenshots of 50k, 80k, 100k damage done in a scenario with like only 2-3 kills. That's absurdly useless, when you consider how much of that damage was either healed or just automatically recovered in a matter of seconds when someone drops out of combat.
I also play a zealot, and let me tell you engies/magus-- your DOTs don't pressure me at all. It's so easy to negate or flat out ignore your DOTs I just laugh whenever people go "oh but our DOT puts pressure on the healers, hurrrrrr"
No, it doesn't. Your DOTs can't even kill the carrier in Mourkain without help from someone else.
Really? What do we receive in compensation for our significant lack of DPS in comparison? An unnoticeable, laughable daemon turret and Chaotic Rift or (you can only choose one) Perils of the Warp?
So we simply "should not do as much damage"?
How about this: Sorcerers "should not have 95% as much utility as Magus or Engineer"... yet they do! That's the problem.
We trade a huge chunk of DPS for almost nothing. There's no balancing factor.
Hence the problem.
*******************************
Something else people have mentioned is total damage done in scenarios. Magi can get pretty high sometimes, though I assure you they can't get nearly as high as a Sorcerer.
Thing is, doing small amounts of sustained DPS to lots of people over long periods of time is far, far less useful than doing burst damage to one target or a small group of targets.
Any Magus can score high damage numbers by spamming his or her AoE DoTs at every given opportunity, which is in fact a horrible way to play the class (we should be using our CC as often as possible) since our damage is highly ineffective.
Oftentimes, Black Orcs do the same or higher damage in scenarios as Witch Elves, because BOs die less, and their DPS is sustained. They do the same damage, but it's not bursted in BO's case.
Yet people haven't quit playing Witch Elves. I wonder why that is?
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
I have to agree. Ive played a Magus off and on. Ive parked him 2 times now and probably wont go back to playing him as much as I like the idea behind them.
Its a class you can say without a doubt will never ..ever be needed in any seige or group situation. Nearly every class has a distinguishable purpose in the game with the exception of the Magus and the Engineer. You could easily substitute them for either a ranged dps class or a melee dps class. As they are now, theyre more of a liability.
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a robot foot stomping on a human face -- forever."
Easiest way to lodge a protest is to play another class. When Mythic notices nobody playing a class they will re-think it and come up with a working model.
Personally.. i hate arrows :P I say remove arrows from the game! Oh and witch hunters too.. useless class.. :P
Yeah thats the easiest way. Its also the least effective way to make Mythic aware of the problem.
You are aware of the help function within the game right? Have you ever clicked that button called FEEDBACK and typed something into it? Of course by all means take the long winded approach and just hope that thousands of other players do the same thing as you and also hope that over the coming months Mythic might possibly notice something.
I would personally click the Feedback button and tell them
Yes i'm aware of it. I clicked it and told them that they need to do away with arrows and witch hunters. I hope they listen.
Make a difference!
i agree the class really needs some work. i find every class on destruction side to be tons of fun and also useful in pve/pvp with the exception of the magus. it would be interesting if they changed the pet mechanics to a more traditional pet style...make the pets mobile and of different varities ie tank, dps, etc
I have never played either class personally. However, I play an Archmage and I agree with the zealot who said your dots don't scare me at all. And not to add insult to injury but I'll tell you right now if one of those annoying pets of yours is constant attacking me I just drop a HoT on myself and keep on healing, they seem to do little to no damage at all.
"God, please help us sinful children of Ivalice.."
AMs are easy to kill with the magus. Didnt play the engie very long but Magus do a good job of guarding Sorcs. We could use a buff in our armor but our dps isnt as bad as alot of people portray it (could use a few tweaks). MMORPGs are just full of whiners and drama queens. And egomaniacs that want there class to be uber. Every magus who says we suck always compares us to BW/Sorcs.
When I play my magus I can kill any dps and healers easily. Except wp. Can even get a IB to 1/4 health before he kills me. BW are pretty easy to kill but since they hit hard its a mad race of spaming.
But most magus suck, I cant tell you how many times I see a magus trying to nuke a BW. Then complain about how gimped we are.
A quick tip for those looking at Magus. Magus is a close range class, Engies are long range.
If your a magus stop trying to Nuke everyone, and dont dot everything, it breaks your fellow magus roots.
Pick your targets. And if you want a easy sniper class, someone who sits back and nukes everything. This class isnt it.
Easiest way to lodge a protest is to play another class. When Mythic notices nobody playing a class they will re-think it and come up with a working model.
Personally.. i hate arrows :P I say remove arrows from the game! Oh and witch hunters too.. useless class.. :P
WH are by far useless. If you have a good healer and play the character right you can destroy.
It was known since the open beta that Engineer and Magus are broken classes
I seemed to generally be on top of the damage done charts when playing my Magus, and often see other Magi at the top as well. Of course it could have been a case of everyone but the Magus players in those scenarios being crap. I do think BWs and Sorcs should do more damage, but Magus IMO shouldn't be too far behind.