I like the slight enhancements..better lighting effects and detail shadows add to overall immersion..imo. Now...I have only played WOW with BC...so without that before/after comparison...will the graphic enhancements apply to the whole game world..or just areas added in WOTLK?...perhaps a stupid question..but i ask none-the-less.
lol you guys seriously beleive wow has good pvp? its a good pve game..but as for pvp...it is horrendous. GEAR > anything you can do to counter it
you really should read the thread first. only 1 person here thinks WoW has good PvP, vick. EVERYONE ELSE is saying the PvP is nothing compared to other MMOs.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
All that video did was confirm why i won t be going back to WOW ever and how many better PVP games are coming out soon.
LOL come out with ONE just ONE other MMORPG with these kind of fighting speeds and frantic fighting.
Go out: the web is yours .
I guess lost too much in REAL pvp fights ))
*cough* Dark Age *cough*
And Guildwars... Hell, even old Linage had better sieges than wow have now. But the question is if Blizzard can fix this in the uppcoming expansion. I kinda doubt it, it is very hard to make a game with booth good PvE and good PvP but it isnt impossible. Only game I played with worse PvP than wow is Eq2. No, I dont hate wow but it is a PvE game first, the PvP so far seems more like extra bonus stuff. And yes the PvE stuff is good.
And it is not unfixable, Blizzard have lost many of their best folks but they still have a few good ones and a lot of money., they can still make wow PvP intresting.
Vic, no need to try and explain yourself. your right though, most are wow haters, and you cant reason with someone that has a narrow mind.. its not their fault.. really. I blame their parents.
the new enhancements look nice, I always thought they should give those that have "better" computers options to make the game look better. graphic scaling FTW!
I just like how some can hate the game so much they think blizzard is "desperate".. 10 million subs doesnt sound desperate to me. and the vast exaggerations really.. really make me giggle like a school girl. so thumbs up for making me laugh!
Vic, no need to try and explain yourself. your right though, most are wow haters, and you cant reason with someone that has a narrow mind.. its not their fault.. really. I blame their parents. the new enhancements look nice, I always thought they should give those that have "better" computers options to make the game look better. graphic scaling FTW!
I just like how some can hate the game so much they think blizzard is "desperate".. 10 million subs doesnt sound desperate to me. and the vast exaggerations really.. really make me giggle like a school girl. so thumbs up for making me laugh!
Blizzard has done a good job of monopolizing the MMO industry with a game than can be played on a computer bought for under $200, by a person with an attention span of a child, with an IQ of less than 3 digits.
Wow is flashy, does not tax any computer (or ISP, really) and is not a complete crap of a game. It is stable, entertaining, cheap, and easy to play.
**other companies should heed this approach**
That being said, with all the dumpsters of money and profit to come out of this game, they still cannot:
1- make graphics NEAR as sensual as *any* Korean game
(Lineage II, Granado Espernadawtfever--> Sword of the New World)
2- have a pvp system that is anything more than a full-on gearfest minigame-or-beatdown with little to no relevance
and, my favorite
after.. wtf.. HOW many years?
3- STILL. no form of housing (guild or individual) be it instanced or not.
Dont act like WoW is anything more than a lotto jackpot. because its not.
Blizzard did a smart (or lucky) thing and I am sure their paychecks have been kudos enough, but IMHO blizzard is kinda "desperate" at this stage because the gravy train will not last forever, and WoW is rapidly approaching the looks of ATARI or an APPLE 2.
So, what is "real" PVP? Is it 1 on 1 or zerg vs zerg?
I noticed one thing while reading this thread, it seems WoW is over the first threshold, noone is even questioning the PVE side of WoW, somehow the colective unconscious has decided to accept that WoW is good in that area.
I wonder how long it will take for PVP beeing accepted. If the seige and air PVP combat work good in WotLK, maybe sooner than I think.
OP, you may lack some skills when it comes to discussing, but I think I get what you're preaching and I can get behind it, I just don't like your choice of words.
1 on 1 combat in WoW is the be all end all combat compared to other MMO just by sheer fidelity and execution. The flow, the flow is great.
As for massive and organised PVP, well WoW is in the same boat with WAR for now, at least untill WotLK and WAR are out, then we'll realy see where the loyaltes lie.
WoW PVP isn't shit, but you sure make yourself sound like an ass by using generalisations like that.
I normally don't respond to threads, but I just cannot resist when it comes to this one. PvP in mmos in general seem to be difficult to balance and make entertaining. To me it has always seemed that skill in fighting in an mmo does not matter, it is all about if your class trumps another, or if your gear is better.
Wow has both issues, the classes lack any balance what-so-ever, and then the very gear centric nature of the game does even more to add to that problem. At least in a non mmo game such as a fps the players skill is the real determinant to who will win in a dual (not counting Call of Duty 4, where there are lvls reached with xp to the point where a shot to the knee from someone with a higher lvl will kill faster then a shot to the head from a lower lvl). When an mmo comes out where skill plays a major role I will be very happy wether it be sci-fi or fantaasy.
Eve-online that has the much praised pvp is also lacking. The pvp is fun and actually is quite amazing due to whole fleets going into battle, but these large "blobs" cause so much lag that the enjoyment of the fights gets removed. Once the lag issue gets soved then Eve will be 10 times better. Also Eve needs to learn to stop nerfing the game. With eve a nerf is 10 times worse then many other mmos due to the time invested to learn a skill being waisted.
Now that I covered my opinion on pvp, time to discuss those graphics. The video showed slight improvements, but not the next comming of god as the fanbois clearly are looking for. I can say though that I have never had an issue with wows graphics provided im playing on a good computer that can have everything maxed.
One last comment... I would think many people would argue against Blizard being the best developer for the past 10 years. Many great devs come to my mind... Bungie, Rockstar, Squar-enix, Bethsda, Epic, ect. Declaring Blizard as the best just shows how much of a fanboi a person can really be.
EQ2 or Vanguard crafting blow away that of WoW. EQ2's amount and depth of raid content blows away that of WoW. GW's arena PvP blows away that of WoW. DAoC or EVE's world PvP blows away that of WoW. DAoC or L2's siege PvP blows away that of WoW.
HAHAHAHA
And WOW BLOWS away ALL other MMORPG's in both
NUMBER of Players AND subscriptions
ALL these MMORPG"s COMBINED don't even come to the HEELS of Wow
And why ???
because YOU Sir are BLINDED by hate,
Vick - you are blinded by love. Love to WoW
Now - I am not convinced by one line in the summary above, that EQ2 raid content is better than WoWs. But that might have to do with the fact that I have not really updated myself with EQ2 lately.
However, you are mixing quality and quantity. My strong belief is that WoW is so successful because it does not fail with anything. It does not shine with anything beyond PvE raid content either - but the failures are simply not there.
I really like WoW (the game I have played the most hours in my life) but your High Priest chants about the weaker features of WoW's offering do make you look a bit foolish. It is the same as reading posts where a WAR beta player praises the PvE raid content of WAR. You scratch your head in disbelief and wonder if the guy forgot the pills this morning.
Here is what I call REAL PVP speed: tense - hard - frantic Watch the beautiful dynamic lightings and new shadow graphics. Makes the competition real pale in these kind of things doesn't it.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YE6Jga_8ho
))))) Wow
Did you just use the word beatiful for WoW graphics? Seriously I think Alone in the Dark 1 had better graphics not talking yet about Betrayal at Krondor. That was a real beauty in compare to WoW.
Here is what I call REAL PVP speed: tense - hard - frantic Watch the beautiful dynamic lightings and new shadow graphics. Makes the competition real pale in these kind of things doesn't it.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YE6Jga_8ho
))))) Wow
Did you just use the word beatiful for WoW graphics? Seriously I think Alone in the Dark 1 had better graphics not talking yet about Betrayal at Krondor. That was a real beauty in compare to WoW.
Every post of yours I read is you trolling. Its quite annoying.
Here is what I call REAL PVP speed: tense - hard - frantic Watch the beautiful dynamic lightings and new shadow graphics. Makes the competition real pale in these kind of things doesn't it.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YE6Jga_8ho
))))) Wow
Did you just use the word beatiful for WoW graphics? Seriously I think Alone in the Dark 1 had better graphics not talking yet about Betrayal at Krondor. That was a real beauty in compare to WoW.
Every post of yours I read is you trolling. Its quite annoying.
He has a point though.... The WoW graphics are far from beautiful. I'm not saying that matters, but if someone tries to compliment WoW's graphics then uh oh. They're not meant to be good / realistic, and people accept that, so why try hype of the graphics to be something theyre not? It would be like saying a cartoon has good graphics...
EQ2 or Vanguard crafting blow away that of WoW. EQ2's amount and depth of raid content blows away that of WoW. GW's arena PvP blows away that of WoW. DAoC or EVE's world PvP blows away that of WoW. DAoC or L2's siege PvP blows away that of WoW.
HAHAHAHA
And WOW BLOWS away ALL other MMORPG's in both
NUMBER of Players AND subscriptions
ALL these MMORPG"s COMBINED don't even come to the HEELS of Wow
And why ???
because YOU Sir are BLINDED by hate,
Actually L2 has had more players than WoW, it's something of an obsession in asia. If you just count North America and Europe's WoW Numbers, then they are actually behind L2. About 3/4 of WoW's subs are coming from asia, where the gold farmer market is the largest. So I have no doubt that a good chuck of their 10 million subs are actually gold farmer accounts.
No, I'm not an L2 fanboy either. Never played it just read about it and its subs in asia.
Just to clarify a few things, DrowNoble, about these sub numbers.
The reason people don't like to count Asian numbers is because they can be vastly misleading when you try to compare Asian MMORPG's vs Western MMORPG's for purposes of revenue generated. For any ORPG which involves a pay to play fee and has a wide base in Asia, the vast majority of the accounts _in_ Asia will be from people who pay hourly and play only in PC bangs (that's the Korean term, roughly translates to PC room, think internet cafe). You simply can't compete in Asia without offering that pricing model. PC bangs purchase very large numbers of keys, but they get a highly discounted rate. Players then come in and pay per hour to play the game, without having to buy a key. Some of that is given to Blizzard. The rest is pocketed by the bang.
How does Blizzard count asian subs? Anybody who has either payed their monthly fee or has bought hours within the last month is counted for those month's figures. So while raw user numbers are highly misleading for purposes of determining revenue generated in Asia, it's fairly accurate if you only want to see how many players have played in the last month.
As for gold farmers, you'd have to be insane or completely ignorant to think there are several million farming accounts. To begin with, the total number of gold farmers out there numbers in the thousands. Most of you just have no idea how much gold a single one generates because you think the retarded methods offered in Western golding guides mean something. Beyond that, gold farming outfits keep the fewest number of accounts possible. They simply play in shifts. That minimizes their detection profile and their costs. They can do this because, in Asia, the game doesn't flag keys or accounts for excessive usage, since that would flag every bang key and most Asian accounts (sharing is a lot more common). So the actual number of Asian gold farming accounts is actually less than the number of Asian farmers. It's only Western resellers and botters who maintain multiple accounts.
As for Lineage 2's success, it used to be the biggest MMO out there. It is no longer. It also has been blown away by World of Warcraft by now. I used to compare the two, but that was when WoW was still a lot smaller. Both Lineage and Lineage 2 peaked at around 2-3 million, and both are on the decline. Have been for some time.
While I can't prove you wrong with a press release from a company I can say that WoW is NOT the biggest/most popular MMO out there.
WoW is a biggest SUBSCRIPTION based mmo. I don't think anyone will doubt that at the moment. However China itself has an online gamer army of something like 150 million. WoW has what? 10 million? so even if every single subscriber is from china thats only what? 7% on a good day. WoW isn't even in the top 10 for China's online gaming. Thats not including Korean gamers either which is another big hub.
You have to be kidding yourself to think that WoW has the most players in the world. I think even Maple Story had something like 70 million accounts made. Even if 25% of those are real they beat WoW and have room to spare.
Go look up Zhu Xian or Perfect World II and there a few other big name games over in Asia.
You have to be kidding yourself to think that WoW has the most players in the world. I think even Maple Story had something like 70 million accounts made. Even if 25% of those are real they beat WoW and have room to spare.
while I agree with your point, your logic is flawed. you are comparing accounts made with active accounts, WoWs active accounts nearing 11million means it has WAAAAAAAY more accounts made than that. of course, unless they released the numbers we have no idea how many they've sold. its like when AoC said they had 700,000 accounts made, that number shouldn't be compared to active accounts in another MMO.
but yes, WoW is only the most played subscription model MMO around, because it targets a western market. Asia is a far larger market for video games now and for the near future, so games aimed that that group will be quite a bit more successful.
WoW has nearly 11 million people playing it, it must be good! just remember WoW has 6billion people not playing it, and thus is horrible crap. see the problem there? numbers don't mean much.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
Originally posted by Vicksburg Here is what I call REAL PVP speed: tense - hard - frantic Watch the beautiful dynamic lightings and new shadow graphics. Makes the competition real pale in these kind of things doesn't it.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YE6Jga_8ho
))))) Wow
Now I want you to watch that without the music playing and realize just how boring it is. I was almost getting antsy about WoW again until I watched this video and remembered that it was a lonely, repetitive game.
Seriously, play that video without the music and imagine the scenes that were cut out.
Yeah.
Thank you OP.
___________________ Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
While I can't prove you wrong with a press release from a company I can say that WoW is NOT the biggest/most popular MMO out there. WoW is a biggest SUBSCRIPTION based mmo. I don't think anyone will doubt that at the moment. However China itself has an online gamer army of something like 150 million. WoW has what? 10 million? so even if every single subscriber is from china thats only what? 7% on a good day. WoW isn't even in the top 10 for China's online gaming. Thats not including Korean gamers either which is another big hub. You have to be kidding yourself to think that WoW has the most players in the world. I think even Maple Story had something like 70 million accounts made. Even if 25% of those are real they beat WoW and have room to spare. Go look up Zhu Xian or Perfect World II and there a few other big name games over in Asia.
You are missing the point. WoW is the largest game when it comes to revenue generation since it subscription based. The Asian MMO market is huge - but it is almost always free to have an account (revenue is generated through other means).
I read through all this thread to find information about graphics (yes, I know, silly me), but I found none. Who derailed the whole thing to a discussion on the merits and flaws of PvP?
I read through all this thread to find information about graphics (yes, I know, silly me), but I found none. Who derailed the whole thing to a discussion on the merits and flaws of PvP?
This video was boring, and rogues are still overpowered.
WoW's success has nothing to do with its PvP, and everything to do with its accessability.
WoW's pvp is an unbalanced mess that favors non magic using melee classes.
Rogues are the most overpowered thing that I have ever seen in any MMO EVER, and they show no signs of letting up, as they have one of the best talent trees for WotLK (With mages and warlocks getting shafted harder than others, since they didn't even get one single thing that they really needed...OH SPIRIT!!)
Once again: This video was boring, Rogues are overpowered and function on broken mechanics centered around a 1v1 model, when it has been stated numerous times that the game isn't supposed to be balanced around 1v1...Yet rogues have no problem telling you that they are "the 1v1 masters"
Casters are paper, all others are scissors, rogues are chainsaws with diamond tipped blades.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Originally posted by Kurush EQ2 or Vanguard crafting blow away that of WoW. EQ2's amount and depth of raid content blows away that of WoW. GW's arena PvP blows away that of WoW. DAoC or EVE's world PvP blows away that of WoW. DAoC or L2's siege PvP blows away that of WoW.
Don't you find it strange that you have to reference 6 different games to make a comparion against 1 game?
For example many people hated eq2s grindfest of a timesink craft system of staring at four progress bars waiting to hit a counteraction. The quality of the crafting gear also scews up the PvE reward side of adventuring, because it is too good. Other aspects of the PvE side small grouping offer rewards that are better than the raiding. So you like a more interactive time consuming crafting and think all that quantity of content is supreme, but when combined overall it is a mess. EQ2 can't figure out if it is a raid game, small group game or solo game. It tries to do them all to appeal to many, but just keeps stepping on itself in the process.
Picking one aspect here and there from multiple games and trying to overshadow a game that does every part of the whole MMO formula with success is deceptive. The whole story isn't being told unless you can magically the same character only for the elements of each games aspect you prefer.
DAOC has cool world PvP, but what about the rest of the mess? What other game had to make servers that REMOVED expansions? How about the heavy handed nerf hammering and complete lack of balance for years? Buff bots? People actively trying to loss relics for the underdog buffs. The game has/had issues. Unless all you want to compare between games is world PvP then DAOC isn't even worth mentioning if that tells you anything.
WoW may not do the absolute best for every single aspect of an MMO, but it sure does almost every one of them exceptionally which sets it ahead of the pack. Even the PvP is better than the overwhelming majority of MMOs our right now.
This video was boring, and rogues are still overpowered.
WoW's success has nothing to do with its PvP, and everything to do with its accessability.
WoW's pvp is an unbalanced mess that favors non magic using melee classes.
Rogues are the most overpowered thing that I have ever seen in any MMO EVER, and they show no signs of letting up, as they have one of the best talent trees for WotLK (With mages and warlocks getting shafted harder than others, since they didn't even get one single thing that they really needed...OH SPIRIT!!)
Once again: This video was boring, Rogues are overpowered and function on broken mechanics centered around a 1v1 model, when it has been stated numerous times that the game isn't supposed to be balanced around 1v1...Yet rogues have no problem telling you that they are "the 1v1 masters"
Casters are paper, all others are scissors, rogues are chainsaws with diamond tipped blades.
EQ2 or Vanguard crafting blow away that of WoW. EQ2's amount and depth of raid content blows away that of WoW. GW's arena PvP blows away that of WoW. DAoC or EVE's world PvP blows away that of WoW. DAoC or L2's siege PvP blows away that of WoW.
HAHAHAHA
And WOW BLOWS away ALL other MMORPG's in both
NUMBER of Players AND subscriptions
ALL these MMORPG"s COMBINED don't even come to the HEELS of Wow
And why ???
because YOU Sir are BLINDED by hate,
Actually L2 has had more players than WoW, it's something of an obsession in asia. If you just count North America and Europe's WoW Numbers, then they are actually behind L2. About 3/4 of WoW's subs are coming from asia, where the gold farmer market is the largest. So I have no doubt that a good chuck of their 10 million subs are actually gold farmer accounts.
No, I'm not an L2 fanboy either. Never played it just read about it and its subs in asia.
Just to clarify a few things, DrowNoble, about these sub numbers.
The reason people don't like to count Asian numbers is because they can be vastly misleading when you try to compare Asian MMORPG's vs Western MMORPG's for purposes of revenue generated. For any ORPG which involves a pay to play fee and has a wide base in Asia, the vast majority of the accounts _in_ Asia will be from people who pay hourly and play only in PC bangs (that's the Korean term, roughly translates to PC room, think internet cafe). You simply can't compete in Asia without offering that pricing model. PC bangs purchase very large numbers of keys, but they get a highly discounted rate. Players then come in and pay per hour to play the game, without having to buy a key. Some of that is given to Blizzard. The rest is pocketed by the bang.
How does Blizzard count asian subs? Anybody who has either payed their monthly fee or has bought hours within the last month is counted for those month's figures. So while raw user numbers are highly misleading for purposes of determining revenue generated in Asia, it's fairly accurate if you only want to see how many players have played in the last month.
As for gold farmers, you'd have to be insane or completely ignorant to think there are several million farming accounts. To begin with, the total number of gold farmers out there numbers in the thousands. Most of you just have no idea how much gold a single one generates because you think the retarded methods offered in Western golding guides mean something. Beyond that, gold farming outfits keep the fewest number of accounts possible. They simply play in shifts. That minimizes their detection profile and their costs. They can do this because, in Asia, the game doesn't flag keys or accounts for excessive usage, since that would flag every bang key and most Asian accounts (sharing is a lot more common). So the actual number of Asian gold farming accounts is actually less than the number of Asian farmers. It's only Western resellers and botters who maintain multiple accounts.
As for Lineage 2's success, it used to be the biggest MMO out there. It is no longer. It also has been blown away by World of Warcraft by now. I used to compare the two, but that was when WoW was still a lot smaller. Both Lineage and Lineage 2 peaked at around 2-3 million, and both are on the decline. Have been for some time.
First off, sorry for the long quote everyone....
It is "not insane or completely ignorant" to think a good portion of asian accounts are gold farmers. I never said several million either. Since there is only approx 8 million asian subs, that would of left only 1 million asian players which is unrealistic. It is however, very realistic to assume more than a few thousand asian subs are farmers. Simple numbers if you think about it. There are many sites offering buy gold services, with stockpiles of said gold. Logically, they wouldn't have all the gold on one account for 2 obvious reasons (1) if banned they lose all their stock and (2) there is a cap to max gold. So if I buy 1000g, they probabaly have 10 different accounts sent 100g to a "delivery boy" who then delivers to me. They have to have farmers on mulitple servers, multiple accounts per server and round the clock farming. That is a lot of manpower that a few thousand subs across all asian subs couldn't manage.
L2 I used as an example because it had millions of players well before WoW did. Again numbers were had to get exactly due to the reason you mentioned, people going to an internet cafe and paying the business hourly fees to play. I used them as an example because their subs and players have been seven figures for quite some time. Oh and L2 peaked much higher than 2-3 million worldwide, was closer to 12 million players at one point. Now I didn't check to see how they define "sub" vs "player", that could of been 12 million total since launch I'll grant you that.
Curioius as to how Guild Wars would compare, no subs so hard to define how many playing.
Comments
I like the slight enhancements..better lighting effects and detail shadows add to overall immersion..imo. Now...I have only played WOW with BC...so without that before/after comparison...will the graphic enhancements apply to the whole game world..or just areas added in WOTLK?...perhaps a stupid question..but i ask none-the-less.
lol you guys seriously beleive wow has good pvp?
its a good pve game..but as for pvp...it is horrendous. GEAR > anything you can do to counter it
you really should read the thread first. only 1 person here thinks WoW has good PvP, vick. EVERYONE ELSE is saying the PvP is nothing compared to other MMOs.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
hrm...touche :P
LOL come out with ONE just ONE other MMORPG with these kind of fighting speeds and frantic fighting.
Go out: the web is yours .
I guess lost too much in REAL pvp fights
))
*cough* Dark Age *cough*
LOL come out with ONE just ONE other MMORPG with these kind of fighting speeds and frantic fighting.
Go out: the web is yours .
I guess lost too much in REAL pvp fights
))
*cough* Dark Age *cough*
And Guildwars... Hell, even old Linage had better sieges than wow have now. But the question is if Blizzard can fix this in the uppcoming expansion. I kinda doubt it, it is very hard to make a game with booth good PvE and good PvP but it isnt impossible. Only game I played with worse PvP than wow is Eq2. No, I dont hate wow but it is a PvE game first, the PvP so far seems more like extra bonus stuff. And yes the PvE stuff is good.
And it is not unfixable, Blizzard have lost many of their best folks but they still have a few good ones and a lot of money., they can still make wow PvP intresting.
Vic, no need to try and explain yourself. your right though, most are wow haters, and you cant reason with someone that has a narrow mind.. its not their fault.. really. I blame their parents.
the new enhancements look nice, I always thought they should give those that have "better" computers options to make the game look better. graphic scaling FTW!
I just like how some can hate the game so much they think blizzard is "desperate".. 10 million subs doesnt sound desperate to me. and the vast exaggerations really.. really make me giggle like a school girl. so thumbs up for making me laugh!
---
Xen of Onslaught
Blizzard has done a good job of monopolizing the MMO industry with a game than can be played on a computer bought for under $200, by a person with an attention span of a child, with an IQ of less than 3 digits.
Wow is flashy, does not tax any computer (or ISP, really) and is not a complete crap of a game. It is stable, entertaining, cheap, and easy to play.
**other companies should heed this approach**
That being said, with all the dumpsters of money and profit to come out of this game, they still cannot:
1- make graphics NEAR as sensual as *any* Korean game
(Lineage II, Granado Espernadawtfever--> Sword of the New World)
2- have a pvp system that is anything more than a full-on gearfest minigame-or-beatdown with little to no relevance
and, my favorite
after.. wtf.. HOW many years?
3- STILL. no form of housing (guild or individual) be it instanced or not.
Dont act like WoW is anything more than a lotto jackpot. because its not.
Blizzard did a smart (or lucky) thing and I am sure their paychecks have been kudos enough, but IMHO blizzard is kinda "desperate" at this stage because the gravy train will not last forever, and WoW is rapidly approaching the looks of ATARI or an APPLE 2.
So, what is "real" PVP? Is it 1 on 1 or zerg vs zerg?
I noticed one thing while reading this thread, it seems WoW is over the first threshold, noone is even questioning the PVE side of WoW, somehow the colective unconscious has decided to accept that WoW is good in that area.
I wonder how long it will take for PVP beeing accepted. If the seige and air PVP combat work good in WotLK, maybe sooner than I think.
OP, you may lack some skills when it comes to discussing, but I think I get what you're preaching and I can get behind it, I just don't like your choice of words.
1 on 1 combat in WoW is the be all end all combat compared to other MMO just by sheer fidelity and execution. The flow, the flow is great.
As for massive and organised PVP, well WoW is in the same boat with WAR for now, at least untill WotLK and WAR are out, then we'll realy see where the loyaltes lie.
WoW PVP isn't shit, but you sure make yourself sound like an ass by using generalisations like that.
I normally don't respond to threads, but I just cannot resist when it comes to this one. PvP in mmos in general seem to be difficult to balance and make entertaining. To me it has always seemed that skill in fighting in an mmo does not matter, it is all about if your class trumps another, or if your gear is better.
Wow has both issues, the classes lack any balance what-so-ever, and then the very gear centric nature of the game does even more to add to that problem. At least in a non mmo game such as a fps the players skill is the real determinant to who will win in a dual (not counting Call of Duty 4, where there are lvls reached with xp to the point where a shot to the knee from someone with a higher lvl will kill faster then a shot to the head from a lower lvl). When an mmo comes out where skill plays a major role I will be very happy wether it be sci-fi or fantaasy.
Eve-online that has the much praised pvp is also lacking. The pvp is fun and actually is quite amazing due to whole fleets going into battle, but these large "blobs" cause so much lag that the enjoyment of the fights gets removed. Once the lag issue gets soved then Eve will be 10 times better. Also Eve needs to learn to stop nerfing the game. With eve a nerf is 10 times worse then many other mmos due to the time invested to learn a skill being waisted.
Now that I covered my opinion on pvp, time to discuss those graphics. The video showed slight improvements, but not the next comming of god as the fanbois clearly are looking for. I can say though that I have never had an issue with wows graphics provided im playing on a good computer that can have everything maxed.
One last comment... I would think many people would argue against Blizard being the best developer for the past 10 years. Many great devs come to my mind... Bungie, Rockstar, Squar-enix, Bethsda, Epic, ect. Declaring Blizard as the best just shows how much of a fanboi a person can really be.
Sorry for the rant.
HAHAHAHA
And WOW BLOWS away ALL other MMORPG's in both
NUMBER of Players AND subscriptions
ALL these MMORPG"s COMBINED don't even come to the HEELS of Wow
And why ???
because YOU Sir are BLINDED by hate,
Vick - you are blinded by love. Love to WoW
Now - I am not convinced by one line in the summary above, that EQ2 raid content is better than WoWs. But that might have to do with the fact that I have not really updated myself with EQ2 lately.
However, you are mixing quality and quantity. My strong belief is that WoW is so successful because it does not fail with anything. It does not shine with anything beyond PvE raid content either - but the failures are simply not there.
I really like WoW (the game I have played the most hours in my life) but your High Priest chants about the weaker features of WoW's offering do make you look a bit foolish. It is the same as reading posts where a WAR beta player praises the PvE raid content of WAR. You scratch your head in disbelief and wonder if the guy forgot the pills this morning.
Did you just use the word beatiful for WoW graphics? Seriously I think Alone in the Dark 1 had better graphics not talking yet about Betrayal at Krondor. That was a real beauty in compare to WoW.
REALITY CHECK
Did you just use the word beatiful for WoW graphics? Seriously I think Alone in the Dark 1 had better graphics not talking yet about Betrayal at Krondor. That was a real beauty in compare to WoW.
Every post of yours I read is you trolling. Its quite annoying.
-------------------------
Did you just use the word beatiful for WoW graphics? Seriously I think Alone in the Dark 1 had better graphics not talking yet about Betrayal at Krondor. That was a real beauty in compare to WoW.
Every post of yours I read is you trolling. Its quite annoying.
He has a point though.... The WoW graphics are far from beautiful. I'm not saying that matters, but if someone tries to compliment WoW's graphics then uh oh. They're not meant to be good / realistic, and people accept that, so why try hype of the graphics to be something theyre not? It would be like saying a cartoon has good graphics...
----------------
Hello!
HAHAHAHA
And WOW BLOWS away ALL other MMORPG's in both
NUMBER of Players AND subscriptions
ALL these MMORPG"s COMBINED don't even come to the HEELS of Wow
And why ???
because YOU Sir are BLINDED by hate,
Actually L2 has had more players than WoW, it's something of an obsession in asia. If you just count North America and Europe's WoW Numbers, then they are actually behind L2. About 3/4 of WoW's subs are coming from asia, where the gold farmer market is the largest. So I have no doubt that a good chuck of their 10 million subs are actually gold farmer accounts.
No, I'm not an L2 fanboy either. Never played it just read about it and its subs in asia.
Just to clarify a few things, DrowNoble, about these sub numbers.
The reason people don't like to count Asian numbers is because they can be vastly misleading when you try to compare Asian MMORPG's vs Western MMORPG's for purposes of revenue generated. For any ORPG which involves a pay to play fee and has a wide base in Asia, the vast majority of the accounts _in_ Asia will be from people who pay hourly and play only in PC bangs (that's the Korean term, roughly translates to PC room, think internet cafe). You simply can't compete in Asia without offering that pricing model. PC bangs purchase very large numbers of keys, but they get a highly discounted rate. Players then come in and pay per hour to play the game, without having to buy a key. Some of that is given to Blizzard. The rest is pocketed by the bang.
How does Blizzard count asian subs? Anybody who has either payed their monthly fee or has bought hours within the last month is counted for those month's figures. So while raw user numbers are highly misleading for purposes of determining revenue generated in Asia, it's fairly accurate if you only want to see how many players have played in the last month.
As for gold farmers, you'd have to be insane or completely ignorant to think there are several million farming accounts. To begin with, the total number of gold farmers out there numbers in the thousands. Most of you just have no idea how much gold a single one generates because you think the retarded methods offered in Western golding guides mean something. Beyond that, gold farming outfits keep the fewest number of accounts possible. They simply play in shifts. That minimizes their detection profile and their costs. They can do this because, in Asia, the game doesn't flag keys or accounts for excessive usage, since that would flag every bang key and most Asian accounts (sharing is a lot more common). So the actual number of Asian gold farming accounts is actually less than the number of Asian farmers. It's only Western resellers and botters who maintain multiple accounts.
As for Lineage 2's success, it used to be the biggest MMO out there. It is no longer. It also has been blown away by World of Warcraft by now. I used to compare the two, but that was when WoW was still a lot smaller. Both Lineage and Lineage 2 peaked at around 2-3 million, and both are on the decline. Have been for some time.
While I can't prove you wrong with a press release from a company I can say that WoW is NOT the biggest/most popular MMO out there.
WoW is a biggest SUBSCRIPTION based mmo. I don't think anyone will doubt that at the moment. However China itself has an online gamer army of something like 150 million. WoW has what? 10 million? so even if every single subscriber is from china thats only what? 7% on a good day. WoW isn't even in the top 10 for China's online gaming. Thats not including Korean gamers either which is another big hub.
You have to be kidding yourself to think that WoW has the most players in the world. I think even Maple Story had something like 70 million accounts made. Even if 25% of those are real they beat WoW and have room to spare.
Go look up Zhu Xian or Perfect World II and there a few other big name games over in Asia.
while I agree with your point, your logic is flawed. you are comparing accounts made with active accounts, WoWs active accounts nearing 11million means it has WAAAAAAAY more accounts made than that. of course, unless they released the numbers we have no idea how many they've sold. its like when AoC said they had 700,000 accounts made, that number shouldn't be compared to active accounts in another MMO.
but yes, WoW is only the most played subscription model MMO around, because it targets a western market. Asia is a far larger market for video games now and for the near future, so games aimed that that group will be quite a bit more successful.
WoW has nearly 11 million people playing it, it must be good! just remember WoW has 6billion people not playing it, and thus is horrible crap. see the problem there? numbers don't mean much.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
Seriously, play that video without the music and imagine the scenes that were cut out.
Yeah.
Thank you OP.
___________________
Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/12/13/
You are missing the point. WoW is the largest game when it comes to revenue generation since it subscription based. The Asian MMO market is huge - but it is almost always free to have an account (revenue is generated through other means).
I read through all this thread to find information about graphics (yes, I know, silly me), but I found none. Who derailed the whole thing to a discussion on the merits and flaws of PvP?
Here's why posters wrote about PvP. It wasn't derailed.
Well, OP did by proxy, in the very first post.
I am not a WoW hater.
This video was boring, and rogues are still overpowered.
WoW's success has nothing to do with its PvP, and everything to do with its accessability.
WoW's pvp is an unbalanced mess that favors non magic using melee classes.
Rogues are the most overpowered thing that I have ever seen in any MMO EVER, and they show no signs of letting up, as they have one of the best talent trees for WotLK (With mages and warlocks getting shafted harder than others, since they didn't even get one single thing that they really needed...OH SPIRIT!!)
Once again: This video was boring, Rogues are overpowered and function on broken mechanics centered around a 1v1 model, when it has been stated numerous times that the game isn't supposed to be balanced around 1v1...Yet rogues have no problem telling you that they are "the 1v1 masters"
Casters are paper, all others are scissors, rogues are chainsaws with diamond tipped blades.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Don't you find it strange that you have to reference 6 different games to make a comparion against 1 game?
For example many people hated eq2s grindfest of a timesink craft system of staring at four progress bars waiting to hit a counteraction. The quality of the crafting gear also scews up the PvE reward side of adventuring, because it is too good. Other aspects of the PvE side small grouping offer rewards that are better than the raiding. So you like a more interactive time consuming crafting and think all that quantity of content is supreme, but when combined overall it is a mess. EQ2 can't figure out if it is a raid game, small group game or solo game. It tries to do them all to appeal to many, but just keeps stepping on itself in the process.
Picking one aspect here and there from multiple games and trying to overshadow a game that does every part of the whole MMO formula with success is deceptive. The whole story isn't being told unless you can magically the same character only for the elements of each games aspect you prefer.
DAOC has cool world PvP, but what about the rest of the mess? What other game had to make servers that REMOVED expansions? How about the heavy handed nerf hammering and complete lack of balance for years? Buff bots? People actively trying to loss relics for the underdog buffs. The game has/had issues. Unless all you want to compare between games is world PvP then DAOC isn't even worth mentioning if that tells you anything.
WoW may not do the absolute best for every single aspect of an MMO, but it sure does almost every one of them exceptionally which sets it ahead of the pack. Even the PvP is better than the overwhelming majority of MMOs our right now.
I take it you don't play rogue much.
HAHAHAHA
And WOW BLOWS away ALL other MMORPG's in both
NUMBER of Players AND subscriptions
ALL these MMORPG"s COMBINED don't even come to the HEELS of Wow
And why ???
because YOU Sir are BLINDED by hate,
Actually L2 has had more players than WoW, it's something of an obsession in asia. If you just count North America and Europe's WoW Numbers, then they are actually behind L2. About 3/4 of WoW's subs are coming from asia, where the gold farmer market is the largest. So I have no doubt that a good chuck of their 10 million subs are actually gold farmer accounts.
No, I'm not an L2 fanboy either. Never played it just read about it and its subs in asia.
Just to clarify a few things, DrowNoble, about these sub numbers.
The reason people don't like to count Asian numbers is because they can be vastly misleading when you try to compare Asian MMORPG's vs Western MMORPG's for purposes of revenue generated. For any ORPG which involves a pay to play fee and has a wide base in Asia, the vast majority of the accounts _in_ Asia will be from people who pay hourly and play only in PC bangs (that's the Korean term, roughly translates to PC room, think internet cafe). You simply can't compete in Asia without offering that pricing model. PC bangs purchase very large numbers of keys, but they get a highly discounted rate. Players then come in and pay per hour to play the game, without having to buy a key. Some of that is given to Blizzard. The rest is pocketed by the bang.
How does Blizzard count asian subs? Anybody who has either payed their monthly fee or has bought hours within the last month is counted for those month's figures. So while raw user numbers are highly misleading for purposes of determining revenue generated in Asia, it's fairly accurate if you only want to see how many players have played in the last month.
As for gold farmers, you'd have to be insane or completely ignorant to think there are several million farming accounts. To begin with, the total number of gold farmers out there numbers in the thousands. Most of you just have no idea how much gold a single one generates because you think the retarded methods offered in Western golding guides mean something. Beyond that, gold farming outfits keep the fewest number of accounts possible. They simply play in shifts. That minimizes their detection profile and their costs. They can do this because, in Asia, the game doesn't flag keys or accounts for excessive usage, since that would flag every bang key and most Asian accounts (sharing is a lot more common). So the actual number of Asian gold farming accounts is actually less than the number of Asian farmers. It's only Western resellers and botters who maintain multiple accounts.
As for Lineage 2's success, it used to be the biggest MMO out there. It is no longer. It also has been blown away by World of Warcraft by now. I used to compare the two, but that was when WoW was still a lot smaller. Both Lineage and Lineage 2 peaked at around 2-3 million, and both are on the decline. Have been for some time.
First off, sorry for the long quote everyone....
It is "not insane or completely ignorant" to think a good portion of asian accounts are gold farmers. I never said several million either. Since there is only approx 8 million asian subs, that would of left only 1 million asian players which is unrealistic. It is however, very realistic to assume more than a few thousand asian subs are farmers. Simple numbers if you think about it. There are many sites offering buy gold services, with stockpiles of said gold. Logically, they wouldn't have all the gold on one account for 2 obvious reasons (1) if banned they lose all their stock and (2) there is a cap to max gold. So if I buy 1000g, they probabaly have 10 different accounts sent 100g to a "delivery boy" who then delivers to me. They have to have farmers on mulitple servers, multiple accounts per server and round the clock farming. That is a lot of manpower that a few thousand subs across all asian subs couldn't manage.
L2 I used as an example because it had millions of players well before WoW did. Again numbers were had to get exactly due to the reason you mentioned, people going to an internet cafe and paying the business hourly fees to play. I used them as an example because their subs and players have been seven figures for quite some time. Oh and L2 peaked much higher than 2-3 million worldwide, was closer to 12 million players at one point. Now I didn't check to see how they define "sub" vs "player", that could of been 12 million total since launch I'll grant you that.
Curioius as to how Guild Wars would compare, no subs so hard to define how many playing.