Originally posted by Honkie I couldn't agree with you more about Izzy, that guy is pure fail. Recently Smiters' Boon was changed to 25 energy (from what, 5 or 10) and 5 second duration with 90 second recharge in pvp, from being something you could have up all the time. I can understand such a drastic change for a couple of days, if there is an exploit involved. There wasn't, and it's been much longer. There is no excuse for being so incapable of finding a reasonable balance that doesn't require that extreme of a nerf for anything that has been deemed acceptable for live servers. Anyway, I guess this has been pretty well talked out.
A change to Smiter's Boon was definitely needed considering that GvG Petsmite - 4 smiters, 3 RaO Axes (Rampage as One+interrupt spamming with an axe) and 1 runner - would roll even better teams running balanced. Smiter's Boon made you able to spam skills that healed the target for ~90 health and deal damage; with Smite Hexes and Smite Condition doing ~70 AoE damage and being overpowered in general. The change to Smiter's Boon was what could be seen as a "Panic Change" so what he did was that after Petsmite having been meta for around two weeks he realize that it's too good and then panic when he can't come up with a good change, and thus overdoes it completely. He have however mentioned that the skill will be changed in some way to make it... at least decent.
Originally posted by RockKiller You can play the whole game solo now, and the AI at times is better than players. Template sharing and observer mode didn't help either. Now there is no excuse why players can't have a "meta-build". And then the ever so functional report feature. I went into RA recently with an old Divert Hexes monk, just to see if it still worked. I was reported before the match even started because I cast it on accident. Reported for a skill, and no way to appeal it. GuildWiki is still a great site for game info, and PvXWiki can be useful at times for build ideas. But I would place the blame with Anet for the downfall. Not Wiki.
Heroes are better than normal people at one, and one, thing only - interrupting. Their reactions are not just godly - they're perfect. However there are no builds used in PvP that require the person to mindlessly spam interruptions around, the most ones rely on skills that heroes don't got such as interrupting only vital skills and doing other stuff such as spreading poison, ganking etc. Observer mode is actually great if you ask me since it's a good idea to see what the really good players are running and get a basic grasp of what's actually good and what isn't. Template sharing is nothing else than a necessity for a game that revolves so much around builds.
I don't know if this thread has been made a million times over and i dont care to check, i'm voicing my opinion and here it is. GwWiki has destroyed this once great game, this rediculously easy pure pvp based game. This game used to bring me so much enjoyment when i wasnt playing a real mmo, i could hop on for 20 minutes and literally enjoy 20 minutes of gameplay in a quick alliance battle or in some random battles, i'd be whatever crazy build i wanted, try new spike builds and such. Now it's impossible to see a class/class that doesnt have the same build as everyother class/class, i'm sick of seeing me/mo WoH spammers and Ne/Me spike bombs, im sick of the same generic Rit/Me Spirit Spammer and im sick of the builds that used to be slightly unique to whoever created it, becoming so routine that the game isnt a challange, a group of warriors couldnt handle a random arena before, now with the right W/A build they cant be beat. The game is basically a raid in any newage game now, you see your build, you know the routine, 2 minutes later, match done - i hate you GwWiki
L2make games that do not have awfully unbalenced specs?
All they need to do is nerf that stuff and bingo fix.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
This is far from rare. It's a common thing in class/gearbased games.. As long a 'build' can be superior to another folks will choose it. Same with gear and classes.
______________________________ The Sceptics, yes they're special but we've need them to.. I guess. And if they're put more effort MMORPG.com can create a 'Team Sceptic' and send them to the Special Olympus.
The thing about GW is this, no class is 100% death to all others. Every class you play has a weakness and every other class does as well.
I could give you a million examples of builds that cannot stop other builds. Each build is designed for a specific purpose.
In random arena it's a 25% chance you will start with a monk or rit. If you do not odds are you wont last very long. You also have a 1 in 4 chance you'll meet up with players who actually know what the hell they are doing regardless of the build on their hotbar. RA was designed for fun, not to be taken serious, it is the luck of the draw, sometimes, 4 good players get teamed up with just the right amount of builds to hold out. Others you get paired with complete noobs who will have you losing within 10 seconds of match 1. It's a coin toss.
In team arena's yeah the 4 your going up against prolly do use cookie cutter builds. You have to keep in mind though that every cookie cutter 4 man has a bane, it's up to you to bring in the right classes and skills to stop them.
Meta builds have been out since the beginning of GW. Flavor of the Month builds pop up all the time.
Let's see we have seen, IWAY warrior, Smiteway Monk, Spike Ranger, Air Spike ele, Obsedian Flame Ele, Bunny Thumper rangers, the lost goes on for days.... The point is these builds were all good until someone found the breaking point.
All classes can be defeated if you bring what is needed to stop them.
GW still is one of those games where you can break a mold and introduce new meta game if your good enough to prove to the world it works.
Find 4-8 friends, start a guild up, sit down in from of Guildwarsguru or something read ALL skills of ALL classes. Find their connections, all skills connect to something else, ignore what the cookie factory says what you should be using, instead find yourself 8 skills that make that cookie cutter build obsolete.
It can be done, for those with the skill enough to put 8 skills together and make them work.
Anyway, GW isn't destroyed, it's still a mighty fine game, just needs more players to break the mold and branch out of the cookie factory thats all.
Forgive me for being one of "those" who dont read the whole topic. I simply wish to input that when a build becomes too powerful or overused, NCsoft is quick to nerf it to keep the players on their toes. In fact ive yet to see a "powerful" build that didnt get nerfed to some degree. Even 55 monks got a kick in the ass eventually.
Originally posted by the_nackster Forgive me for being one of "those" who dont read the whole topic. I simply wish to input that when a build becomes too powerful or overused, NCsoft is quick to nerf it to keep the players on their toes. In fact ive yet to see a "powerful" build that didnt get nerfed to some degree. Even 55 monks got a kick in the ass eventually.
It took Izzy over half a year to fix Ursanway, which was overpowered, overused and terribly easy in a combination that outdid pretty much all other builds. Eventually powerful builds are nerfed, yes, but it takes some time... Wounding Strike is yet to be nerfed and it has been overpowered for around half a year now.
i have good news , becose i am in midle of changing job , i have been playing guildwars a lot more , and what i have found out is that the comunity is much better now , the only reason i found to this is becose european , american , korean and chinese territory are now merged as one even more , everyone can jump to any of the territorys , what hapands most of the time is that everyone jumps to the most populated disctrict , no matter where.
i start doing the SV farming runs in umbral grotto , when i get there i see everyone is looking for cryers , i didnt even know what skills was that , then i see that i have it in my skills list , and then i start collecting builds , and then i made my own , and then i notice that when i join a group , i ping my cry build , all cryers have diferent builds , and no one is crying to change others builds , people accept others ideas !!! wow , this is new. so yeah , i think if you find where the mature experienced players are , you have a good skills esperience run.
Originally posted by the_nackster Wounding Strike is hardly overpowered when you consider how easily conditions can be removed.
lol. The thing is that it can be spread out amongst the whole team easily, and applies deep wound covered by bleeding makes it harder to remove. In smaller arenas most monks carry a single-condition removal which means that the most overpowered condition in the game - deep wound - will still stay on. In larger arenas it can be spread out to drain the monks of energy as they spam their spells trying to remove it. Even with Foul Feast and other such skills Diversion is an easy counter to that. Wounding Strike is an overpowered skill, period.
I find that conditions are of little worry to me at all. These days ever Tom, Dick and Harry is carrying a few of them so I just bring removals. Mending Touch ftw.
I heard someone complain about spaming, and how perhaps wiki is responsible for it... I really don't think so though. This game has been about spaming macros from day one (and I have played it off and on since then). In other words, the game was developed around the simple premise that less is more (meaning less grinding, travel, and gaming skill is more fun). I do think there are things which I have to praise NCSoft for ... those being the awe inspiring graphics engine for its time, while allowing a computer with a slower conection speed and lesser hardware to play it reliably; the intriguing lore and storyline they have created; the highly functional instancing methodology they use; the exceedingly cheap monthly online fee (zero); and the sheer ease of gameplay interaction. Unfortunately, for me, this does not make up for the superficiality of the whole experience... a game experience which it is imposible to set oneself appart in as an exeptional player of any job, as opposed to anyone else. This is my opinion of this game in a nutshell.
Originally posted by Lydon I find that conditions are of little worry to me at all. These days ever Tom, Dick and Harry is carrying a few of them so I just bring removals. Mending Touch ftw.
In TA Wounding Strike isn't as effective as the few amount of skills you can bring force a more focused team. But in bigger arenas such as HA and GvG Wounding Strike is really a godly skill, especially in GvG where it can quickly drain the monks of energy. But even so it's quite good in TA, but due to dervishes inferiority when it comes to being as annoying as possible against monks they're less common. Because in the end TA is all about one thing: shitting as much as possible on their monk until you score a kill (just look at the current hex meta).
This is what happens in any competitive environment. If contenders get word of a 'better' build, they are going to use it themselves too. It doesnt matter if they got it from pvx.
Only a few manage to make up new (team)builds after a rebalancing of skills/rules. The rest copies. You can apply this to any real life sports too (teamtactics).
It maybe kills diversity for you, but only if your own ego is in your way. Otherwise you would still use unusual builds.
The skill system in Guild Wars reflects on the player (if one doesn't use "copy-paste" skill bars posted everywhere). Basically you have all these possibilities (8 skills a bar, attributes, 2 professions, runes) that you can change at any time. Because of this, the skill system is highly developed.
Why? Imo, it's because the player browses through all the skills, tries to find unique synergy or combos, tests them thoroughly, and saves them in a template. Personally, I've saved over 70 for different situations/dungeons/missions after extensive testing and browsing through lists of skills. Again, imo, the build reflects the player on GW.
But eventuelly people crack the ultimate code and find the master template.
Comments
A change to Smiter's Boon was definitely needed considering that GvG Petsmite - 4 smiters, 3 RaO Axes (Rampage as One+interrupt spamming with an axe) and 1 runner - would roll even better teams running balanced. Smiter's Boon made you able to spam skills that healed the target for ~90 health and deal damage; with Smite Hexes and Smite Condition doing ~70 AoE damage and being overpowered in general. The change to Smiter's Boon was what could be seen as a "Panic Change" so what he did was that after Petsmite having been meta for around two weeks he realize that it's too good and then panic when he can't come up with a good change, and thus overdoes it completely. He have however mentioned that the skill will be changed in some way to make it... at least decent.
Heroes are better than normal people at one, and one, thing only - interrupting. Their reactions are not just godly - they're perfect. However there are no builds used in PvP that require the person to mindlessly spam interruptions around, the most ones rely on skills that heroes don't got such as interrupting only vital skills and doing other stuff such as spreading poison, ganking etc. Observer mode is actually great if you ask me since it's a good idea to see what the really good players are running and get a basic grasp of what's actually good and what isn't. Template sharing is nothing else than a necessity for a game that revolves so much around builds.
L2make games that do not have awfully unbalenced specs?
All they need to do is nerf that stuff and bingo fix.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
This is far from rare. It's a common thing in class/gearbased games.. As long a 'build' can be superior to another folks will choose it. Same with gear and classes.
______________________________
The Sceptics, yes they're special but we've need them to.. I guess.
And if they're put more effort MMORPG.com can create a 'Team Sceptic'
and send them to the Special Olympus.
The thing about GW is this, no class is 100% death to all others. Every class you play has a weakness and every other class does as well.
I could give you a million examples of builds that cannot stop other builds. Each build is designed for a specific purpose.
In random arena it's a 25% chance you will start with a monk or rit. If you do not odds are you wont last very long. You also have a 1 in 4 chance you'll meet up with players who actually know what the hell they are doing regardless of the build on their hotbar. RA was designed for fun, not to be taken serious, it is the luck of the draw, sometimes, 4 good players get teamed up with just the right amount of builds to hold out. Others you get paired with complete noobs who will have you losing within 10 seconds of match 1. It's a coin toss.
In team arena's yeah the 4 your going up against prolly do use cookie cutter builds. You have to keep in mind though that every cookie cutter 4 man has a bane, it's up to you to bring in the right classes and skills to stop them.
Meta builds have been out since the beginning of GW. Flavor of the Month builds pop up all the time.
Let's see we have seen, IWAY warrior, Smiteway Monk, Spike Ranger, Air Spike ele, Obsedian Flame Ele, Bunny Thumper rangers, the lost goes on for days.... The point is these builds were all good until someone found the breaking point.
All classes can be defeated if you bring what is needed to stop them.
GW still is one of those games where you can break a mold and introduce new meta game if your good enough to prove to the world it works.
Find 4-8 friends, start a guild up, sit down in from of Guildwarsguru or something read ALL skills of ALL classes. Find their connections, all skills connect to something else, ignore what the cookie factory says what you should be using, instead find yourself 8 skills that make that cookie cutter build obsolete.
It can be done, for those with the skill enough to put 8 skills together and make them work.
Anyway, GW isn't destroyed, it's still a mighty fine game, just needs more players to break the mold and branch out of the cookie factory thats all.
Forgive me for being one of "those" who dont read the whole topic. I simply wish to input that when a build becomes too powerful or overused, NCsoft is quick to nerf it to keep the players on their toes. In fact ive yet to see a "powerful" build that didnt get nerfed to some degree. Even 55 monks got a kick in the ass eventually.
It took Izzy over half a year to fix Ursanway, which was overpowered, overused and terribly easy in a combination that outdid pretty much all other builds. Eventually powerful builds are nerfed, yes, but it takes some time... Wounding Strike is yet to be nerfed and it has been overpowered for around half a year now.
Wounding Strike is hardly overpowered when you consider how easily conditions can be removed.
i have good news , becose i am in midle of changing job , i have been playing guildwars a lot more , and what i have found out is that the comunity is much better now , the only reason i found to this is becose european , american , korean and chinese territory are now merged as one even more , everyone can jump to any of the territorys , what hapands most of the time is that everyone jumps to the most populated disctrict , no matter where.
i start doing the SV farming runs in umbral grotto , when i get there i see everyone is looking for cryers , i didnt even know what skills was that , then i see that i have it in my skills list , and then i start collecting builds , and then i made my own , and then i notice that when i join a group , i ping my cry build , all cryers have diferent builds , and no one is crying to change others builds , people accept others ideas !!! wow , this is new. so yeah , i think if you find where the mature experienced players are , you have a good skills esperience run.
Guild - http://lightness.goodforum.net/
Blog - http://www.pierrecarlier.com/
lol. The thing is that it can be spread out amongst the whole team easily, and applies deep wound covered by bleeding makes it harder to remove. In smaller arenas most monks carry a single-condition removal which means that the most overpowered condition in the game - deep wound - will still stay on. In larger arenas it can be spread out to drain the monks of energy as they spam their spells trying to remove it. Even with Foul Feast and other such skills Diversion is an easy counter to that. Wounding Strike is an overpowered skill, period.
I find that conditions are of little worry to me at all. These days ever Tom, Dick and Harry is carrying a few of them so I just bring removals. Mending Touch ftw.
I heard someone complain about spaming, and how perhaps wiki is responsible for it... I really don't think so though. This game has been about spaming macros from day one (and I have played it off and on since then). In other words, the game was developed around the simple premise that less is more (meaning less grinding, travel, and gaming skill is more fun). I do think there are things which I have to praise NCSoft for ... those being the awe inspiring graphics engine for its time, while allowing a computer with a slower conection speed and lesser hardware to play it reliably; the intriguing lore and storyline they have created; the highly functional instancing methodology they use; the exceedingly cheap monthly online fee (zero); and the sheer ease of gameplay interaction. Unfortunately, for me, this does not make up for the superficiality of the whole experience... a game experience which it is imposible to set oneself appart in as an exeptional player of any job, as opposed to anyone else. This is my opinion of this game in a nutshell.
fraudemonax
In TA Wounding Strike isn't as effective as the few amount of skills you can bring force a more focused team. But in bigger arenas such as HA and GvG Wounding Strike is really a godly skill, especially in GvG where it can quickly drain the monks of energy. But even so it's quite good in TA, but due to dervishes inferiority when it comes to being as annoying as possible against monks they're less common. Because in the end TA is all about one thing: shitting as much as possible on their monk until you score a kill (just look at the current hex meta).
This is what happens in any competitive environment. If contenders get word of a 'better' build, they are going to use it themselves too. It doesnt matter if they got it from pvx.
Only a few manage to make up new (team)builds after a rebalancing of skills/rules. The rest copies. You can apply this to any real life sports too (teamtactics).
It maybe kills diversity for you, but only if your own ego is in your way. Otherwise you would still use unusual builds.
The skill system in Guild Wars reflects on the player (if one doesn't use "copy-paste" skill bars posted everywhere). Basically you have all these possibilities (8 skills a bar, attributes, 2 professions, runes) that you can change at any time. Because of this, the skill system is highly developed.
Why? Imo, it's because the player browses through all the skills, tries to find unique synergy or combos, tests them thoroughly, and saves them in a template. Personally, I've saved over 70 for different situations/dungeons/missions after extensive testing and browsing through lists of skills. Again, imo, the build reflects the player on GW.
But eventuelly people crack the ultimate code and find the master template.