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Warning: the following is my opinion and it is not to be taken as canon truth and/or an attempt to attack you personally or those you may know (and like). Any attempt to take this opinion serious will result in needless rage. Thank you.
I'm writing this in light of the current reaction(s) of some players at an MMORPG known as Pirates of the Burning Sea and FLS decision to make insurance pay back on ships significantly larger than currently. What I think is funny about the situation is that another MMO, EVE online, has a similar insurance system and yet the players for that game hardly ever complain about it: why? Perhaps it's because the reality of EVE and the reality of PotBS are distinct some how in regards to insurance policies, but I think generally speaking both function similar enough to make an analysis of the situation in regards to PotBS. In this case the most two common reactions to the insurance policy pay back increase are the following.
First, there are those that think it's a bad idea and will make PVP trivial. Basically, that PVP in PotBS is suppose to be 'hardcore.' But how do these folks define hardcore? I suspect in their definition the consequences of losing are harsh. I believe this is not necessarily true for each and every case of PVP. Simply losing your ship and having to get all the fittings again are consequence enough, and possibly being on another mission like that of trading would impede progress more so because I wouldn't believe their insurance policy system would cover contents or fittings. So, the cost of running into a zone that has open PVP in PotBS should be significantly risky regardless. The difference with the increased insurance pay back is that the time to reenter the fray is reduced, nothing more.
Second, the other reaction is one about the economic impact of such an increased insurance pay back in that it would unbalance the economy. This assertion I believe has more fact to it than not, and it would make it problematic in regards to a form of mudflation to occur. It's been tossed about that certain items, fittings, and ships should increase in cost at their base level (+/- what players may charge for their construction). This reaction may be one that is in itself backward way of looking at the 'hardcore' definition because the consequences of still losing a ship would be that you couldn't get back 100% of the total value of that given ship. That if other economic pressures such as the current population of crafters able to produce ships of the same quality, the same sort of fittings, and so on, it doesn't seem to follow that increase the insurance pay back makes the game less hardcore.
What is the logical consequence of the analysis so far? Well, I think it comes down to how people define hardcore more so than others. In both common reactions to the insurance pay back increase, one is more from the assumption that one *must* take out insurance to play PVP. Granted it's still silly not to cover your bases and be as economical as possible in all engagements, but there's no system that forces any player to insure their ships at all from what I've seen. As for the other reaction, I believe it's more well reasoned out and that it's from a larger perspective than the individual instances of PVP. It's the sort of reaction that should be taken by all players in that more in-game money from any in-game source means a devaluation of existing in-game items, thus sets up a situation of mudflation, which still defeats the initial purpose of the insurance pay back increase which is to reduce the time to recover from failure in PVP.
Ultimately, the definition of hardcore is two fold: it depends on what players generally think of as hardcore and it's the real consequences of the given game (either how much is lost or how long it takes to regain footing in game). By comparison other games that others would consider hardcore such as EVE online have insurance policies that do pay back most of the initial cost of the vessel, minus fittings and contents, for which I believe is more fair than not. The cost to cover more of the value of the vessel in EVE increases the insurance fee, plus the insurance policy is not indefinite, so it must be renewed within a certain time frame. So, I believe hardcore is as hardcore does to write up a pun.
-- Brede
Comments
Hardcore is:
1) You have to work for your nice gear
2) You have to grind and work for your levels
3) Penalty for dying has some sting to it
4) Penalty for failed crafting could mean loss of materials
Basically, "hardcore" is gameplay that makes you stop for a moment and calculate your risks and rewards before you hit the action bar.
Why?
EVE has 3, as for 4. I'm not sure, but I know you waste much of your resources in EVE so I would say it's built in...
Every game does this, so RTS games are hardcore?
-- Brede
A hardcore game is like any other game, but with added tedium.
Like pencilrick's examples - more levelling grind, significant death penalty (which creates more grind), loss of crafts (creates more grind), "work" hard for gear (since people in mmos who say "work" generally mean "time spent", this is basically more grind).
Which is where his "risk" factor comes in - in order to avoid excessive grind, you have to perform well (or be lucky). I actually like this version of "risk" as an incentive, where it falls apart is it only works if you have a somewhat limited time to play (these timesinks are no deterrent for those who can spend 12 hours a day in game).
Basically, a hardcore game is (IMO) one in which everything happens very slowly. The challenge is to not get bored to tears in the process.
ahhh yes... in other words BOOOOOOOOOORING! For those that don't like my opinion, you can just shove it! I don't pay $15.00 a month to be BORED! I have an 8 hour real life JOB for that!
Maybe we should do that to a lot of these so called "hardcore players"... give them a real 8 hour tedious job, make them face real life away from the safety of their parents homes and see if they start feeling the same way about their games, especially once they realize they no longer have as much time as they used to, to make those 12 hour dungeon raids or whatever.
NOTE: This isn't a bash on you Azurus, I'm just using your quote as an example to support my opinion. I just get ticked off sometimes by the so called hardcore players that, in reality end up being nothing more than ganking elitist pricks (well, the ones that continue to shout for ridiculous PvP penalties anyway so that they can stroke their e-peens from ganking low level players for being "teh ub3r!")
Hardcore is a term used by people who play shit mmorpgs and they're hardcore because they put up with crap.
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Talking about SWG much?
Hardcore to me is any game you can lose. (you cant really win, unless you can lose)
Now with that being said....It does not mean that you have to spend 6 hours grinding to recoup that loss.
The most hardcore mmo ever was 10six. You could lose almost everything you own while you were offline. It was really brutal, specially to new players. It was also the most fun, it was fun waking up in the morning and checking your bases to make sure you were not attacked. In wars there was a clear winner. Even if you got anihilated you could always rebuild. You never lost your cash so you could get back on your feet in a day or two. There wasnt really any epic items either,everyone had tons of everything. Your first day you could kill anyone, if you were good. When you win you get to keep what you kill also.
Now in potbs, I think the real problem is not enough gain for the risk? Or unfair losses(ganking)?
I always thought that potbs should allow guild owned cities for a cash gain(taxes)without grinding.
Own, Mine, Defend, Attack, 24/7
Maybe I can better summarize my earlier post. "Hardcore" means having earned rewards (instead of everyone having a "gimme" flaming uber sword at level 70), and having consequences for failure (instead of everyone just popping back a minute or two after dying with no real loss.)
Basically, "hardcore" gameplay gives you pride in your accomplishments and a healthy respect for what might happen if you make careless mistakes. This also makes the game world feel a bit more alive and relevant.
Sure, penalties or objectives can be set too hard, but they can also be set to be too easy. An example of the latter is WOW with lots of folks' level 70 characters all dolled up with uber gear and no where to go.
Generalizing a game as "hardcore" really has no standing. A "hardcore player" is someone that has a substantial amount of time on their hands to blow through to the endgame content of any game. This then usually results in menial crying and bitching that the game is not "hardcore" enough for them.
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You wouldn't understand
The assumption here is that hardcore requires a negative penalty. And while many MMORPG players are masochists and believe such things it is not the only way.
For example lets take an American Collegiate Wrestler. He has a "fight", a match, agaisnt a single opponent. If he loses nothing "bad" happens except a loss or pride etc. He doesn't get his arm chopped off or his clothes ripped off or magically teleported to Indiana. He just loses. Period.
Yet for many of these guys that loss is the worst thing that could happen to them. They hate losing. They HATE it.
Now let's take a look at Collegiate Wrestlers. Can anyone seriously believe they are not hardcore? Whatever that term means. Everyone who is not a complete dummy will admit that. They work as hard or harder than any athelete. They go through pain and hardship. They have to have the courage to go mano a mano against another well trained and fit opponenet and try to triumph. And all this for absolutely no chance at a professional career even if they were the best that ever was.
Why? Because they want to WIN. And they hate to lose. Not because they will get whipped with a horse whip by Dan Gable.
In the end its about a goal that is not easy to attain. In the MMORPG world that has usually been done by inflicting large amounts of something unpleasant, usually boredom.
Sadly this has resulted in many people believing that masochism = hardcore. But in reality the above mechanic has been done because the developers could not or would not think of some other way to make some thing challenging.
To make it even more confusing many people differ on what is challenging. For example I do not and never have considered anything based upon testing my boredom level to be challenging. I do not think EQ1 is challenging and never will. In fact i played MUDs with Death penalties that were literally 10 times as harsh.
These death penalties did NOT give me an adrenaline rush or make me feel like the world was more meaningful. They just sucked and had no value added. However for other people they did get the intended result of the implementation.
The thing is people are different and will respond to some of these stimulus in different ways. Many people want to think there is one answer to rule them all there isn't.
To be hardcore you simply need something that is challenging to obtain and takes a lot of work to get. In the case of my Wrestler example this is accomplished by:
1) The sport takes a ton of skill. Wrestlers tend not to peak until well after their physical peak due to the amount of skill.
2) the amount of conditioning needed.
3) the skill and condiditioning require both ability and many years of repetition to accomplish.
4) you are going against a single person, alone, who is doing all this stuff as well
As we can see this is challenging, ie. you must be at the top of your game because your opponenet will be as well and will beat you if you are not. It is also hard and takes a long time. They are commited and willing to endure. That makes them hardcore.
Being commited to being a wuss does not make you hardcore. I think this is not really arguable, yes?
Being awesomely skilled but never putting in any work or actually using that skill does not make you hardcore. I think this would be widely accepted, yes?
Yet nowhere here have I mentioned INFLICTED punishment as a consequence. It can be that way, but it is not necessary. Many oldschool MMORPG types and especially old MUDers claim it is necessary. But they are clearly wrong. It can work as an implementation, but it is not necessary.
So you have two major problems.
1) The belief in the necessity of masochism cuts out half of the conversation.
2) widely differing ideas on what is challenging. For example I do not think raiding is challenging but some people claim its the a priori obviously hardest ideal of an MMORPG.
I came to the same conclusion that it's all in the mind's eye and what you want to do. You can make even EQ2 a hardcore game by not repairing your stuff or using food and drink. Granted, it's silly, but it can raise the bar of challenge by a factor more so than not.
-- Brede
Right.
Nowdays if you can spend alot of time into a MMO you are a hardcore player. And since todays MMOs only need you to spend time on them (no brain, wits or social skill needed) to be successful......the modern gameplay really favors one kind of players.
Exactly! There are no hardcore games, only as "hardcore" as YOU make them.
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You wouldn't understand
I think the developers accepted that if you can lose all your things then it should not take you longer than half an hour on average to replace it. Anything else would only cripple gameplay and make it impossible for most to enjoy.
Seems FLS just adjusted the time it takes to get back on your feet after a death.
-- Brede
except for WoW PVP. the only thing i calculate is how far the GY is in case i die.
Hardcore e-peen:
If a game that is not sacrificing content and multi-ingame calculations for faster gameplay (fps) while sitting there commando style jarhead haircut /ooc-ing for a group/pleading for a guild because in truth they cannot handle being a true commando. But on the forums they bluster about harsh envirenments with pvp everywhere.
Agree.
So since substantial penalties seem to constitute hardcore in most peoples eyes then that would make prema-death pretty damn hardcore right? Yet everytime someone brings it up it get's shot down immediatly, so I guess not TOO hardcore huh?
Hardcore is a term people throw around to feel special.
People seam to confuse tedium with difficultly. Difficulty is working hard towards a goal; tedium is meaningless mind numbing crap shoved down peoples throat masked at difficulty.
My no 1 critic against the hardcore ideology is, that it is based on the idea to evaluate you status compared to another. I deeply defy this ideology and do define yourself based on "better as someone else" means to invite the devil. Its the beginning of an endless haunt, a treadmill and essentially a sick way of creating self-esteem. In fact a person who depends of being superior to others sets himself into a trap, forcing himself to fight for the sake of fighting, and while I can imagine to fight for goals worthy to fight for - I am no carebear - fighting to "prove" yourself as better as some other is the ideal of people who really dont believe in themselves.
There are two ways in this ideal, either you make sure you have better gear than the other - thats the WOW-PVP trap, or you make sure you keep your enemies down, by harsh penalities enforced upon your victims. For THAT is the sick line of thinking, that they hope to bring even greater suffering on their victims than the kill itself in PVP. It is not sufficient for them to kill their opponent, they want a system where he suffers a lengthy time from it.
I am virulenty against such ways of dealing with another human, game or not. Every healthy self-esteem is based on STOPPING comparing yourself with another, by enjoying what you have and do, the stories, the world, the fight itself. The actual gain is then the byproduct, so to a degree I guess some people need positive gain to measure their value, as alien as such is to me. But the need to degrade others in PVP by harsh penalities... that just a mentally sick line of thoughts and I dont want to be surrounded by people of such trains of thoughts at all.
Aside from PVP in 90% of all cases in actual MMOs hardcore only is time-sinks. Usually It has zero to do with skill or challange. Take VG. It used to have long time travel, and that was said be to hardcore. Bullshit! Long travel isnt difficult, and it wasnt in VG, it was just boring time consuming, end of the story! And so with all, if I lose a ship in PotBS, I loose time I have to re-grind the stuff. Boring. Who wants to re-do the same over and over? We really must stop to crave to win and start to experience the presence, to enjoy what is there, a good quest story, a wonderful world, the company of people and an adventure concluded. Maybe some people should go to play pen and paper RPGs like D&D to understand what MMORPGs should be about: having a good time TOGETHER with other humans.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert