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I'd like for mmo makers to stop the leveling
Lordmonkus
Member Posts: 808
Anyways as the title says I hate the leveling process of mmos so much but I do love playing persistant online world games. I recently picked up Age of Conan and I have been trying to play it since it is a pretty good game but I really just hate the running around doing stupid quests that mean absolutely nothing in the end. I played WoW and leveled 4 70s which is probably what finally did me in on the whole leveling idea.
Since I have been feeling so bad about leveling in AoC I have been wish there was a game out there where I can start off with a fully leveled character with some basic gear to get started with. Spend my customization points or talent points whatever you wanna call them to make my character the way I want to and then get into the meat of the game. It just feels now like all mmo makers out there have so much focus on designing the early content to hook players that end game content lacks severely for a year or two until that end content can be designed and tested.
Some people might say the leveling process is learning to play your character and how that character works. To a certain extent I would agree but at the same time from my experience previous mmos that leveling is nothing like end game and what you learned leveling needs to be unlearned to be successful later on.
I would rather see a game that offers me a character leveled and modestly geared to start with. I can read ability information and figure out how it works unless the info is so poorly written. I would rather see the game designed around end game rather than years spent tweaking low level content that only see once while passing through it on your way to end game.
Any comments on what I have said whether positive or flames would be great.
Comments
Maybe give Eve a shot? It's pretty much the only non-level-based game out there right now that's any good.
It's a little rough the first week or so though. Leave everything you think you know about MMOs behind ('cause the odds are much better than not that it won't apply), and join up with Eve University as soon as you can and they'll help you learn the game.
Is EVE Online the only non-leveling MMO out there?
I would also need to find a nice good MMO to play.
Ive played Eve on and off since beta, been on a break as of late due to no internet where I have been living. Eve is a great game and I love it alot but there is something to be said for WoW and all the other fantasy based dungeon types of gameplay which I do enjoy as well. Eve is just an entirely different breed of game.
I would just like to be able to jump into a WoW / AoC type of game and not have to level. Using WoW as an example here, I would love to able to log in, make a level 70 warrior for instance with a full set of level 70 greens and spec him for what I wanted whether it is pve pr pvp and be ready to start working on the level 70 dungeons for blue gear then move on to the larger raids instead of killing off 2 to 3 weeks of time leveling. Or go pvp for my pvp set of gear.
Do tanks really learn how to tank while leveling ? No, they spec for solo damage and get to 70 and then they start to learn how to properly tank. Do priests learn to heal raids or instances on the way to 70 ? I certainly didn't when I played. I leveled to 60 first and fast, then I learned how to raid heal. The leveling process did nothing to teach me how to play end game. Sure I may have learned the mechanics of certain spells but definately not all of them or even the important ones for raiding.
You do realise that's just another form of leveling? Only in this case you're grinding to level up item stats rather than grinding to level up character stats...
You do realise that's just another form of leveling? Only in this case you're grinding to level up item stats rather than grinding to level up character stats...
We need a game where we are all GMs!I agree with the OP to an extent, but the only system I can think of that's more fun than pick a class, start at level 1 and head for 80 is to have only skill levels with no character level. I'd like to see an Oblivion-ish MMO.
Levels are stupid as hell. They are a mechanism that was introduced in pen & paper RPGs to ease character progression. There is no reason at all they should exist in video games where every attribute and skill level increase can be computed on the spot.
Smarter devs make sandbox games, smarter devs understand levels are shit. It's as simple as that. I won't give links to sandbox games in development here, because I don't want to make it easy for the brainwashed people here to go on those games forums and ruin them, but yes there are games made by less stupid game designers out there.
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Waiting for: GW2
*thumbs up*: GW, Eve(, WoW)
*thumbs down*: MO, GA, FE
However, levelling does give a good stop off point or aim for the player, one more skill point in 2hand spec doesnt really do it for me...
leveling as a mechanism makes it easier for people to quickly relate to, to navigate the game world even and provide a solid 'i'm getting somewhere' feel.
---
Waiting for: GW2
*thumbs up*: GW, Eve(, WoW)
*thumbs down*: MO, GA, FE
A lot of people including myself like the leveling process more so than the end game. I have to admit though i do hate the time sink and would like the leveling process to not be so darn repetitious but unfortunately most MMOs whether leveling or endgame are just that repetitious.
I totally agree. Leveling as it is right now seems to not really prepare anyone for the final state of the game. It seems that's where Eve, imo, succeeds. Every skill in Eve matters whether it's a support skill or a direct use skill for a given ship component/weapon/etc. By comparison, I don't know how many times in AoC I've had to remove 'old' skills that were replaced with equivalent n+1 versions or simply had no more use after a certain level range (like sweep and slam are after six are useless in AoC). This sort of 'power' or 'skill' curve seems to be what is a distraction for single-player-level games in that they don't really give a player a clue as to when their class comes into its own and what exactly it will shape up to be. I think if single-player-level games are to exist as the mainstay of MMOs or RPGs even I think making all skills available at the start that level with the character would be more useful than not. And then offer specialization that adds bonuses (and trade-offs) to what sorts of abilities the players want to emphasize in their class (even at the cost of some primary abilities maybe...*shrugs*). This, I believe would reduce the confusion that people get when they make a character for a particular class and reduce the struggle to get on the path of learning it (having a clear path of what your class can do isn't handing it to players, rather it's clarifying the point of classes: to make a certain combat role obvious).
-- Brede
I can't read half of what was said because everything is shifted to the right.
I like leveling. I can't see myself playing Second life or Tales in the Desert.
If you like non leveling MMOGs pick one of those.
If you're not one for graphics you could give Ultima Online a try.... Though ever since "Origin: We Create Worlds" sold it to EA it was destroyed due to releasing too many land-based expansions that split the community up; you're lucky to even find one person in the old world nowadays even if you play an entire month.
That game had no levels but a "skill" system where, for example, you may have started with 40% swordsmanship and each time you used it it went up by "0.1" or more until it reached Grandmaster Status at 100% (basically effecting hit rate).
Besides that just about everyone in the game had a flat 100 HP and there was a four way faction war in a FFA world with full lootable bodies.... something that people are scared of nowadays with good reason as companies aren't able to create a system that will support it like UO eventually did.
Had to have street smarts and know how in that game and use tactics... Not wear your most expensive armor in public with all your gold, bandages, potions, etc. in your pocket at the same time. At flat 5 healing potions, 100 bandages if all you're doing is traveling, plain platemail if you were a warrior, a shield and two weapons. Maybe about 200-500 gold just for emergencies.
Then again crafted armor in the game was the best back then and was easy to get; you could mine EVERY mountain and EVERY tree for supplies and those were the only things you needed to craft. No rare materials or nuisances like that; just mined ore, a smelt, an anvil, and blacksmith skill to make anything you wanted. You also repaired your own gear with your blacksmith or had a friend repair it for you by just using the hammer next to an anvil on the damaged plate.
Crafting was basically the center of the universe as it was part of the economy and society like it was back in the old day; artisans sold stuff to adventurers and were the ones who made stuff. No NPCs made anything that you could buy except house plots.
Tables for houses, cups, beds, anvils, ovens, plates, armor, cloth, bandages, repairing, etc.... Everything was done by the community with little to no NPC vendors besides taverns which sold cheap food and fruit to new players and animal pets; though, they could basically be picked off the ground or cooked by the players who had such skill.
Even such skills as cooking has an entire tree of stuff such as cakes, ribs, etc. etc. that people made restaurants with within their homes. Frivolous but fun; people were role playing without even role playing by attending player run restaurants, museums, etc. and spending money on food which had no benefit other than just hanging with friends and filling their bellies so their characters weren't hungry.
The game wasn't plagued with the "dumbing down" as was mentioned above with leveling replacing what really made a MMORPG a MMO"RPG" (That is not to say that a game having leveling wouldn't have meaningful game play as well - it's just that most of the games today just USE leveling to hide the fact that the game has no true substance other than the grind to max level and the time consumption in getting "leet" gear; they also use the community to as a "trap" as people still play games they no longer like just to play with the friends they made or keep in touch).
I like both if done correctly, I like leveling if it is quest based and you are delved into a nice story arc and level along with quests of the pertaining story, I also like thye idea of games like eve, but that empty gap in the waiting time period for yer skills to auto train bug me a bit, if there were thinfgs to do to fill that gap that were not so repetative i would definatly like it more, I also like the idea of guildwars where the top lvl is only 20 and there are literally 100"s of skills to choose from for each charecter and depending how you build and use your charecter for a given situation in both the questing part and the pvp part is what determines your sucess and your base of knowledge of yer toon. But so far leveling with a nice story arc is what i like atm the most as i play mmo's for escapism and roleplay mostly these days, but ill log into any of the guildwars and start a toon at max lvl for some good ol pvp once in awhile, maybe thats a game for you in guildwars pvp you can just create a max toon and head straight into the pvp, no lvling involved.
playing eq2 and two worlds
You do realise that's just another form of leveling? Only in this case you're grinding to level up item stats rather than grinding to level up character stats...
Thanks for the responses so far everyone.
I do realize it is just another form of leveling which is what burned me out on WoW pretty badly but it wouldnt be nearly as bad if say I could just make a new level capped toon with a base set of gear and spend my points on him and start in gathering gear. It's just such a pain in the ass to have to go back through the barrens quests and all the other ones first just to get to the level cap gear grind.
I can understand the enjoyment of progressing through a good story but to be honest if I want to play a game for story then a single player rpg will do that job way better any day imo.
Something I thought about Eve last night after posting and going to bed was that you still had to train your skills which isn't as bad as leveling characters in other mmos but you still have that time to wait. Eve's system is better than any other mmo I have player (I never played the old UO). Just imagine for a second though in Eve if you could make your character and you had say 40 million skillpoints to put into the skills anyway you chose to. Do you focus on a single races ships or do you go for diversity ? Do you go for combat oriented skills or tradeskills ? Do you focus on gunnery, missile or drone skills or spread across them all ?Do you get certain skills to 5 or just leave them at 4 ? These things to me would be extremely interesting and would eliminate the feeling new players seem to have when they say they can never catch up.
Keep in mind of course that not of what I am saying could actually ever be retrofitted into a game already made but it is something I would like to see happen in games coming out. I am keeping an eye on Darkfall for if and when it ever does come out.
Well, you can stop leveling in Vanguard, with the use of a spell. I am stopping at level 30..I'm close.
Beau
Listen to the Spouse Aggro podcast at spouseaggro.com. Twitter: spouseaggro
Check out Earthrise. It's not being release until next year but it's a skill based not level based.
I don't agree with teh OP at all. Leveling is character development. You can call it grinding, farming, faction rep, skillups, or leveling. They are all character development. So what if you have 50 levels, and it takes an esitmated 6 months to get to. Is that any different than if you needed to gain skills like in Oblivion, or farm for plat for 6 months?
MMOs aren't single player games. They should not take 2-4 weeks to reach the end. They are ever evolving worlds where people come to face challenges that can't be found in single player games.
The OP is asking for a game that he can enter, and be on top within days. How is that challenging?
You do realise that's just another form of leveling? Only in this case you're grinding to level up item stats rather than grinding to level up character stats...
Thanks for the responses so far everyone.
I do realize it is just another form of leveling which is what burned me out on WoW pretty badly but it wouldnt be nearly as bad if say I could just make a new level capped toon with a base set of gear and spend my points on him and start in gathering gear. It's just such a pain in the ass to have to go back through the barrens quests and all the other ones first just to get to the level cap gear grind.
I can understand the enjoyment of progressing through a good story but to be honest if I want to play a game for story then a single player rpg will do that job way better any day imo.
Something I thought about Eve last night after posting and going to bed was that you still had to train your skills which isn't as bad as leveling characters in other mmos but you still have that time to wait. Eve's system is better than any other mmo I have player (I never played the old UO). Just imagine for a second though in Eve if you could make your character and you had say 40 million skillpoints to put into the skills anyway you chose to. Do you focus on a single races ships or do you go for diversity ? Do you go for combat oriented skills or tradeskills ? Do you focus on gunnery, missile or drone skills or spread across them all ?Do you get certain skills to 5 or just leave them at 4 ? These things to me would be extremely interesting and would eliminate the feeling new players seem to have when they say they can never catch up.
Keep in mind of course that not of what I am saying could actually ever be retrofitted into a game already made but it is something I would like to see happen in games coming out. I am keeping an eye on Darkfall for if and when it ever does come out.
ROFL i see this guy hasnt played Eve much. You hate leveling but its ok to wait 8 monthd to be able to handle the 3rd best mining ship or any of the decent combat ships. Anything over the Basic skills require about 4-5 months o max then the second tier skills can take almost a year to max
"MMOs aren't single player games. They should not take 2-4 weeks to reach the end. They are ever evolving worlds where people come to face challenges that can't be found in single player games.
The world can evolve without leveling. Leveling doesn't change anything in the world.
"The OP is asking for a game that he can enter, and be on top within days. How is that challenging?"
How am I asking to be on top ? I would just rather do away with the time sink that leveling is and get straight to the meat of the game play.
"ROFL i see this guy hasnt played Eve much. You hate leveling but its ok to wait 8 monthd to be able to handle the 3rd best mining ship or any of the decent combat ships. Anything over the Basic skills require about 4-5 months o max then the second tier skills can take almost a year to max"
I said i'm tired of leveling. Ive done it more than enough times in previous games. Eves skill level system is automatic and you do not need to run around on tedious quests to get xp to level. Just because I am tied of it does not mean I hate the game.
Besides this is about leveling, not overall game quality, there are plenty of great games out there but in near all of them you need to waste time leveling before you get to the good stuff. It isn't like once you hit level cap and kill a boss the game ends you replay from start again like console rpgs.
Then don't try to stop developers from making games that focus on us either. It's a free market.
-- Brede
I agree with the OP. The whole game should be the End Game. Cut out the middle fluff and let's get to what it's really all about.
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
I think I understand what you are saying. I believe you're saying get rid of leveling in games that put 99% of their resources on "end-game" content. I couldn't agree more, because I feel deceived by a game that refuses to update the "beginning game" and "middle game" at the cost of "end game".
You're basically asking for the RPG to be offcially taken out. Not that there is many MMOs with any sort of role to play other than a raider.
Jokes fly about.
The new Everquest is coming to town via Spaceship in two weeks at the price of 99.99 Newfie three dollar bills.
You will get all the UBER equipment just to get you to the front door of your final battle which should last a GRAND total of 3 minutes.
Enjoy.
I agree with the first part of your post, but not the second. IMO, levels and gear are not requirements for a RPG. How about, you create a character, allocate stat points, pick your skills, then play the game. Your stats and skills will never advance from that point on, but you're still playing as a unique character. The only difference is that you're not climbing a repetitive ladder of "progression".
"You're basically asking for the RPG to be offcially taken out. Not that there is many MMOs with any sort of role to play other than a raider."
How am I asking for the RPG to be taken out ? The games would still have roleplay and obviously still have gameplay. Everyone has their own opinion of what roleplay means to them. To me its not standing around talking all old engligh like, to me its just playing that character in the persistent world of an MMO. My personality is that characters personality, the world I am in is the role play, leveling for 3 weeks doesn't make roleplay
"You will get all the UBER equipment just to get you to the front door of your final battle which should last a GRAND total of 3 minutes."
Where did I ask for all the gear and loot ? As an example I used WoW and even then it would only be level 70 with basic level 70 greens, hardly something I would call uber. You would still have to farm the level 70 instances to get your blues to move onto raids and get your epics. The same with BG PvP gear, you would have to earn it all like anyone else. You would still have to farm your gold to pay for repairs or buy BoE blues and purples. I guess you just forgot to read anything I said.
Also as an example take the next WoW expansion Lich King. All it is is going to be more leveling with a few new instances and the new pvp zone and that is about it really for the major parts of the game (oh yeah almost forgot about the Death Night class). How about instead to putting time into the leveling and just focusing on making the pvp zone extremely robust and rewarding instead of some watered down pvp zone with bad design like the pvp objectives in BC ?