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Core Problem With Current MMORPGs
JoeyNipps
Member Posts: 186
While I agree with the many topics concerning the many and varied problems of current MMORPGs, I have never seen what I consider to be the core problem discussed - so let's have at it. Remember, I agree that there are problems such as buggy code, poor graphics/animations, poor story line, etc., etc.
Core problem as I see it: In the very best of the MMORPGs to date, simply put there are NOT enough different things to do. In virtually every MMORPG to date all one really does is kill things - specifically kill things for the sole goal of leveling. Now, do not misunderstand and think I am some sort of tree hugging care bear - I LOVE killing things (no offense to tree loving care bears as they have their place in life too 
). But face it folks, killing thousands upon thousands of things just to make the next level gets - - - well, tedious and boring to the max! Now, it is true that if you group with friends the time goes more pleasantly - but that is NOT due to any wonderful game design, it is simply because you have friends who are fun to play with - you COULD be doing anything at all with them and having as much fun.
By the very basic design intent of an MMORPG we are expected to play the game for hours on end, day after day, week after week (yes some will play more than others due to other interests) - and with only one (or two if the game has decent trade skills implemented) things to do -- well, of course almost everybody will get bored and find the game tedious (yes, some will come to that point sooner than others, but again this is not the point). Therefore, a good MMORPG (jeez, we ARE into third generation MMORPGs - more if you count MUDS) MUST provide the paying customer more than one or two things to do in the game. This is particularly true of any game that pretends to be a role play game (as opposed to a simpler MMOG shooter or such).
I have deliberately not provided any thoughts in this first post about what COULD be added to an MMORPG to give players interesting things to spend time - to allow you all to comment on the core issue here - NOT ENOUGH DIFFERENT THINGS TO DO IN MMORPGS BESIDE KILLING.
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
Comments
You should play City of Heroes. It will make you appreciate the amount of things to do in most other MMO's
---------------------------------
Long Term MMO's Played:
Ultima Online - 3 Years
Dark Age of Camelot - 3 Years
Less Than 1 Month:
Shadowbane, Planetside
Everquest, Ragnarok Online
City of Heroes, Star Wars Galaxies
Horizons, Fung Wan Online
The Sims Online
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| Final Fantasy | Free iPod |
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I have. It indeed is a shame - the game does many things very well, but after only a few weeks, it became SOOOO tedious and boring!
However, I have not played any game to date that provided much to do other than kill things. You IMPLY that other games have more to do - please expand. UO (forgetting ALL of it's problems) provided about the most of any game - and then truly it only had more to do if you count the trade skills (I tend to lump them together, so UO provided two things to do - kill or do trade skills).
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
I've found myself talking a lot about EVE lately, but if you don't mind my enthusiasm:
I consider killing different monster or enemies in a game completely worthless. It's not content, and killing monsters to get to the next level offers little in the way of gratification. I don't understand the lack of ambition and how the game companies look down on us players by trying to sell us games which are basically nothing but combat mechanics and monster meshes.
I've used the comparison before: it's like a Final Fantasy game with just the scenery, level mechanics and combat mechanics to fight random encounters. Drop the plot and drama from a Final Fantasy game - would you pay for it? Even so, this is what most MMO"RPG"s are all about.
EVE is to my knowledge the only game that offers at least a bit more than that. While it has no plot that'd be based on an individual character, it does offer a very consistently functioning economics in my opinion. Simple example: players mine ores, players refine ores into minerals, players research for technology, players use the results for manufacturing products from the minerals and players sell the end products, like turrets, mods and ships to other players to use.
To my experience, EVE is also an excellent example of world design that inherently supports actual roleplaying in MMORPG environment. I have a friend who has a character that has specialised for transportation and I'm constantly amused by how she has great time playing her "truck driver" character with a bad attitude, and just doing business transporting ores and minerals for profit.
I also have a few friends who have started doing business by going rogue, and pirating other players in low sec areas. The amount of logistics they've had to solve in order to make it as profitable as possible was pretty impressive, but so was their gratification when they had the ball rolling.
I also know a lot of people who play the game around the ship manufacturing business, buying ore and subcontracting ore mining, refining the ore they buy and get and then manufacture cruisers and battleships and select mods like large turrets and then ships those goods to areas in the EVE galaxy where the demand is highest at that moment. They make nice profit, and are running an extremely fun corporation that's functioning very much like a real life company which pays the characters salary for the work they do for the company.
In any other game I've tried, such infrastructure may be built but they're always extremely artificial and built just to construct some content of that fashion into the game. In EVE, the effort the players put into such structure pays back, which is pretty impressive.
And most importantly, there is content for those too who don't want to do in EVE what they do in real life - waging corporate wars over resources and areas rich in ores with both guns and alliance politics or just flying around in the highly unsecure space hunting player and npc pirates.
EVE already is a fabous game construct, and while I enjoy playing it very much I'm just as eager to see the next generation of the same design.
EVE-online was my first MMORPG and I must say that it spoiled me.
In EVE I , like most people at the time started out mining. Once I got a decent industrial ship and some skills for it I began to produce small items and sell them in various stations. Once the agents got fully implemented I started running missions for a while. Having prepared thoroughly I jumped at the oppertunity when the research agents came and started to run missions for mine to get a blueprint pronto. When it finally came I aquired the neccesary skills and produced a few items before auctioning the blueprint and making a pretty decent profit of selling it. By that time I had nice refining skills so I ran the ore market for a while. This enabled me to raise the capital to corner the trit market in a specific region. Now Im playing around with PvP and intend on joining some deep space alliance ops to prepare for the huge content update thats on its way.
In SWG I bashed monsters until I had the skills to get better weapons to bash monsters. I crafted some items to bash monsters with and I grouped with a few people to bash monsters. I travelled around, bashing different types of monsters on different planets and joined a guild to assist it in bashing monsters. I also went to special caves where you could bash a large number of monsters in a small area. In my guild I got some items and buffs that really helped me bash monsters and a house to keep the stuff from all the monsters I had bashed. I tried out PvP but it was lame and boring and not properly implemented so I went back to bashing monsters. Then I cancelled my account.
Of all MMORPGS I have tried outside of EVE SWG is the least focused on bashing monsters.
The problem is that when people think about MMORPGS they think about bashing monsters. Not many producers are willing to fund a truly original MMORPG because so many people are paying nice fees for bashing monsters. Why change a winning formula?
___________________
Killer 73%
Explorer 60%
Achiever 46%
Socializer 20%
___________________
Killer 73%
Explorer 60%
Achiever 46%
Socializer 20%
I have to agree with the original poster. Everyone always talks about how much 'content' there is in X mmog. I just don't see it. Hopefully things will change in the upcoming games but I'm not holding my breath.
Personally, i liked Earth and Beyond alot. In that game, your characters maxed out at level 150, but you could only get to level 50 by directing killing things. In Earth in Beyond, you had Combat experience, Exploer Experience, and trade experience. Killing stuff got you combat, and the loot they dropped could get you trade. Doing missions and exploring got you explore experience and doing trade runs or manufacturing things got you trade experience.
All in all, i found it to be a fun, well rounded game. The only downside is i guess not enough people did, cause the game is sunsetting. Thus, i am going to check out EVE again, i beta tested EVE and couldn't believe the amount of bugs it still seemed to have the week prior to shipping, but hopefully they got all that worked out by now ^_^
Firstly the original poster must never have read any of my posts
Secondly EQ2 is most definately just gonna be another grindfest, there will never be enough quests that can get you to a high level without them getting very repetative, and thats providing they think of some quests other than talk to a, go to b, kill c etc etc.
Quests will never make a game if the rest of the game is still the same. Levelling needs to be changed so that ROLEPLAYING your character correctly actually gets you levels rather than the amount you do. There must also be dynamic quest style adventures, which are random encounters, yet all link together into a quest, which if failed or completed will have consequences for everyone involved.
The characters themselves also need to be less 1 dimensional, insofar as they need to be something other than killers, or crafters. They need to be people, with real lives, possibly NPC families and the like. And you need to live your characters life in order to gain experience. If you chose a stealth based thief style then you will stick to dark alleys, meet dodgy contacts and find information which most people will never know. You can then use this information however you want. Are you going to inform the guard captain of the smuggling that is taking place? or not? if so how? every task needs different ways of completing it, and you dont necessarily have to kill anything. However if you are a fighter then your decision may well be to attack a group you see, but what then? after killing that group of orcs do you leave or check for other groups? if you find several groups do you warn the city that the orcs are getting more active? or do you ignore it? if you ignore it then the orcs could raid the city, if you alert the city they would have defenses ready. Or what if you alert the city without knowing the facts, you could be made a laughing stock scared of a few orcs in the woods etc etc.
Each thing in the game needs to be there for a reason other than something else to kill or build something with.
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
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MMORPG genre=trend=lots of subscriptions/bad games
I think the problem with most MMORPG's at the moment is that people arent hunting and questing for fun, they are doing it to stay competatitive, I personally enjoy PvP a lot because of the intellegence factor my current game is Asherons call 2, the problem is i cant do what i enjoy full time because i dont get xp for killing people so i have t go and kill some mobs endlessly inbetween. In my opinion all mmorpg's have to take either the Eve system so that we can all do what we want to do while training skills, not have to hunt endless monsters or create some kind of amazing twitch based system (which i cant even think about how it would work) for medieval combat.
Obviously the reasnoble option is the Eve skill system which is why im awaiting middle earth online with intrigue because they are supposedly going to use it. Once we dont have to worry about leveling to stay competative and at the top of the ladder we can do what we want for fun at the same time as making our characters stronger
P.S after typing this post of realised it has nothing to do with the first post, this is mp opinion on whats wrong with mmorpg's but in theory itl probably solve your issues aswell because you wont have to hunt endless monsters, just do things that interest you.
I sincerely agree, rentantilus. A game can never be entertaining for long by focusing solely on battling monsters with an IQ of 3. Controlling everything about yourself, as a character and not just someone with a gun or a sword, would keep things more interesting and hopefully filter the mobs of players that are as 'intelligent' as the monsters.
I remember playing RP (role playing) in WC3. I loved it because you could do whatever you wanted, and the way the plot turned out depended almost completely on the interaction of the players. Every game could be different and it took very little imagination at the beginning, but grew into something more involving. If this aspect of RP being supported by MM was included in the MMORPG games out now, gamers everywhere would be cheering. However, if games keep trying to add more monsters to fight, that are interesting for about two minutes, the MMORPG will be
dead in its box.
The tides of war are changing Tarius. Surrender now or be washed out with the dead.
The tides of war are changing Tarius. Surrender now or be washed out with the dead.
I have played every game mentioned in this thread.
Almost every one of us has...and hoped it would be the "one". Several of them were fantastic but after a while...the grind just gets to you.
It never really dawned on me that while I was buying and playing all these other games I was still going back to same game after each and every let down. The only one that does not have NPCs or Quests and absolutley the only one where I could truly have an outcome on the "world" as it were.
WWIIOL.
Not really the genre mentioned but the only MM out there that is full PvP and the only game where you can make a difference in how the war turns out.
Good luck finding your lucky charm. Once again...hoping for "Darkfall Online" or "Dark and Light" to spark my return to fantasy based MMORPG. They'll be a while though.
If you are looking for a game where you dont kill stuff you should try A tale in the Desert, it wasnt to my liking but if thats all you want it may be the game for you.
I agree with rentantilus. just about everything should be player controlled. perhaps with a broad story arc and/or events created by the developers.
Having everything player controlled can be a receipe for disaster. With a small economy like in most mmorpgs (Even the one in EVE is small on economical standards) it is very sensitive to fluctuations and the devs need to have some tools to intervene if it starts to fluctuate too much in one direction or the other.
I do agree though that devs should focus less on forced linear gameplay and more on emergent gameplay. Of course, monster bashing and emergent gameplay are not mutually exclusive, like EQ proves, but they do not require each other either.
Ever tried out DarkSpace? It's another game which doesn't have the treadmill of doing quests etc. to gain the next level although Sci-fi based. Sure you have some badges and ranks to gain to get access to various different ships but they aren't really that important to you being able to make your mark on the Universe. You have to fight other people not some dumb AI monsters. And fighting isn't the only option. You can build the planetary systems up as well. It's a shame it's not fantasy based with Dragons and Wyverns trying to capture mountain fortresses instead of Spaceships attempting to capture Planets else it would probably have a ton more players. Although I guess it would be possible to create a graphics skin to much the same affect... hmmm.... shame I'm not a 3d designer :-/
Too many games do have the treadmill of going out an killing AI creatures all the time. It gets boring very quickly and although they do try to introduce economies and lots of other options you still have to keep to the core of what the game is about. Anything you introduce as added player interest shouldn't be essential for them to attain thier goals. One option would be to add in lots of little minigames that can be used as alternatives to some of the more simple game processes and give people a small bonus to their action if they use the minigame instead of the quicker option. The trick is in making such things not essential to playing the game. But it does add a level of depth.
http://www.darkspace.net
http://www.shatteredstar.com
DarkSpace Developer - Play DarkSpace - Play For Free!
Medusa Engine SDK - Free MMO Game Engine
Hampton Roads/East Coast Video Gamers Association
The reason why no MMORPGs have enough content to keep you interested for years is because of the time you spend playing them. Most single player games I buy I play for 2-3 days depending on how long they are and then I don't touch it again for months if ever again. I log on to my MMORPGs every single day and usually stay online for a few hours. It would be impossible to create a game that would keep giving me new things to try for long. Even in EVE, which is by far the most diverse game I have tested, after 18 months I can say that I've tested about everything although I still learn new ways to do things and I am still having fun.
What I mean is that of course all games will eventually get repetitive if you play them for long enough. I'd love to have a game where I could try something new every single day for a full year but that game would have to have 365 different features and most games today only have 1-4 things to do when you log on.
If you are looking for something that will not require you to do the same thing every time you log on then EVE is the only answer IMHO. In most games you have either monster bashing or quests or maybe even manufacturing. In EVE you have mining (grinding for money), NPC hunting (grinding for cash and loot), pirating (killing every player you see), bounty hunting (killing every pirate you see), trading with the NPC, trading with other players (the market is huge and many players do nothing but trade all day), corporation or alliance wars, territorial dispute, exploring, spying, manufacturing, researching, agent missions (quests). I'm sure I'm forgetting something. Sure if you do this for a few hours a day for a year I'm sure it will be repetitive but it will take a lot longer then in other games.
Signature? I don't need no steeeenking signature!1!1!1
Signature? I don't need no steeeenking signature!1!1!1
Solution 2: The developers do NOTHING. The super ammo gets so expensive that, in the end, only one super faction can afford it in great quantities. They become the most powerful faction and proceed to conquer most of the world, setting up a strict regime. The smaller factions and newer players are forced to use substandard equipment (whatever's left) and eventually get tired of scraping by.
What is wrong? Simple. Many (if not most) people will simply quit. I know that I would not continue to play - being forced as a newbie (or simply not one of the "in crowd" gang) to play with inferior ammo. I do NOT want a game to present the very same psychological and practical problems I face in real life. I hate assholes that control me in real life and I DAMN well don't like them in a game and I will NOT support a game that forces that on me. I quit UO (as did many other people) back in the beginning with the officially supported UO style of PK. It was NO fun to give UO their money and then be PKed at every turn by "uber" gangs while I was just trying to have fun in a game. Sorry, if I want that sort of psychological trauma I will just play real life.
BTW, I DO agree that having the variety (and option) of some player controlled activities is a good thing - just NOT as the primary focus because then the dev would be making the same mistake as current ones - that is, putting all his eggs (so to speak) in one basket.
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
Personally, I think MMORPGs should implement a fame experience type of system. Imagine...killing lots of little baddies, or killing one BIG raid target? Which would be a bigger accomplishment? Working with the "new" concept of instancing, it wouldn't allow lesser leveled fame targets to be trivialized by higher level players. There could even be a balance between the two...say, a skill and level based system where you have to toggle between the two...where fame experience could give more towards a level, but grinding mobs would go more towards skill...or where you'd HAVE to kill a few lesser mobs to keep your skills up, but the rest of the time could be spent killing big targets.
Even crafting is just an experience grind at this point in many games...it's not killing, but it IS tedious. Implementing shops, where crafters could run in-game advertisements and such, with name-tagged crafted items...almost liem a "name brand", but having so would yield more experience, so on and so forth...
Just some concepts, but they could be REALLY nice.
Also, I really like EQ's alternate advancement system because it can really add depth to a character...implementing it earlier could REALLY open up for some real character development and roleplay oportunities.
Dungeon crawls are also really fun, and very few games have done them right (EQ's LDoNs being close on the fun factor and concept, but actual implementation is flawed). Having them worked in with quests could add a lot of depth, especially a retrieve item type quest...A warrior could gather a healing friend or lackey and barge through and kill everything, while a rogue could use stealth to sneak through and grab the item. Upon turn in, bonus experience could be given to the rogue to make up for not killing the creatures, depending on just how stealthy he/she was.
We have to keep in mind that coding becomes a big problem with some wanted features, and exploits can abound if something isn't coded right. But if a game really developed a great set of concepts, took the time to code and implement them correctly, and used an upgradable graphics engine, that game could last literally forever. High end content will always be a problem...but the developer that figures out how to keep the high end game fresh while not letting older content trivialize is the developer that will, in the end, own the MMOPRG market.
AHH! Run away from the monster! He's going to eat us!
Socializer 80% Explorer 73% Achiever 33% Killer 13%
Killer 100% Socializer 40% Explorer 33% Achiever 27%
So yeah, if you were to take any existing MMORPG and remove all of the developer-enforced rules, it would all go to shit. But, if you were to take a truly revolutionary game that abandoned the level grind, the insurmountable rift in power between newbies and veterans, and encouraged group play over solo play, you could let the community develop free of any out-of-character rules. I'm baffled at how many nay-sayers contest this idea when it's never, EVER been done or even attempted. Sorry, but now matter how many people love UO, it's still nowhere near what the game I'm imagining would be capable of.
Well, ok - the basic problem here is that I have really NO clue what your overall concept is and without some details, it is difficult to imagine how it might work. But in concept, I am all for it. Much of what I see you say is consistant with what I think is necessary (no levels, far less discrepancy between players, etc.).
However, at a root, I see two problems (please show me your wisdom
).
1. I do not understand why you (echoed by many others I have read on other forums and in games) seem to be set on deleting solo play and pushing group play. That IS what you said. Why? What is the concept here? For many, many reasons (we can go into those if you wish) solo play IS the norm and is very likely to be the desired norm for many if not most players. Understand that in NO way do I mean there should NOT be group play - but NOT to the detriment of solo play.
2. If you take away getting "anything" from killing creatures and other players (as you said) AND take away levels (getting significantly better as a character), then where are the motivations to play at all? Understand that motivation(s) is what drives everything we do in life - including game play. And before you say what most others say (the motivation is fun) - please don't - "fun" is not defined nor is it definable. So I ask again - what are the motivations for the character and/or the player? Traditionally, gaining levels (and/or skills depending on the mechanics of the game) for the express purpose of getting "better" is a prime motivation for playing. Gaining "stuff" is likely another. That is about where most MMORPGs stop.
At the very core of what I am getting at (see original post) is that MMORPGs MUST present the player and his character with MANY things to do in the game. These activities then in and of themselves present the character/player (note that these are and should be two different things) with multiple possible motivations to play the game. Killing things is certainly one motivation, becoming more powerful is another possible one, but there MUST be others. Without motivation (and variety), people become bored and the game becomes a worthless, tedious treadmill.
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
Firstly the original poster must never have read any of my posts
Secondly EQ2 is most definately just gonna be another grindfest, there will never be enough quests that can get you to a high level without them getting very repetative, and thats providing they think of some quests other than talk to a, go to b, kill c etc etc.
Quests will never make a game if the rest of the game is still the same. Levelling needs to be changed so that ROLEPLAYING your character correctly actually gets you levels rather than the amount you do. There must also be dynamic quest style adventures, which are random encounters, yet all link together into a quest, which if failed or completed will have consequences for everyone involved.
The characters themselves also need to be less 1 dimensional, insofar as they need to be something other than killers, or crafters. They need to be people, with real lives, possibly NPC families and the like. And you need to live your characters life in order to gain experience. If you chose a stealth based thief style then you will stick to dark alleys, meet dodgy contacts and find information which most people will never know. You can then use this information however you want. Are you going to inform the guard captain of the smuggling that is taking place? or not? if so how? every task needs different ways of completing it, and you dont necessarily have to kill anything. However if you are a fighter then your decision may well be to attack a group you see, but what then? after killing that group of orcs do you leave or check for other groups? if you find several groups do you warn the city that the orcs are getting more active? or do you ignore it? if you ignore it then the orcs could raid the city, if you alert the city they would have defenses ready. Or what if you alert the city without knowing the facts, you could be made a laughing stock scared of a few orcs in the woods etc etc.
Each thing in the game needs to be there for a reason other than something else to kill or build something with.
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
NPC families???
You get a message when you log in that your Wife has spent 1000gold pieces on jewelry, and now you owe the bank 800 and you need to pay before the weeks out or they would take your house.
How about Wife faction. Play with the kids gain 100 wife faction. Go hunting with your guild lose 20000 wife faction.
Your wife faction gets to high you get divorced and half of everything you earn goes to the wife.
I think people just want a cool escape for the ordinary grind of real life. You just have to have a complete and balanced game when launched, and then add content once a month.
I am all for getting rid of the level system. Perhaps implementing an entirely skill based system. The more a character does something in game the better he/she is at it. Maybe with prerequisite or specific trainers for certain skills. if you wanted to solo there would be nothing stopping you from doing that. In rentantilus's example there are any number of ways a solo character could exploit the situation.
I like this idea... a free-form RPG, that focuses on Roleplay by making things a bit more 'realistic,' people who get hit with swords Die... it doesn't even have to be a great sword... archers can still hit you in the neck so your armor isn't guaranteed safety unless you're fighting a kid with an old sword...
The more you use your skills, the better you get at them (skill tree style), if you use any specialty within it, you'll get better at that...
Modular crafting... something that makes crafting at least seem creative... I mean, as is, the click-click-click style is abhorently retarted, get in deep into crafting at capture that pride of 'I've made something special' there... crafting should rival the character creation system in versatility... of course, many options would not be accessible until you have developed a certain level of skill in your chosen craft...
RP tools need to be implimented for families, rivalries, passions, a host of player interactions that don't involve damage, government that involves nobility to *some* degree rather than just running the biggest guild... and let governments make laws, not just collect taxes and stuff...
If they can make it fun to be a farmer (like, crops and stuff) then they'll have an RPers paradise...
For those who live for advancement, they still have it, they can still have the best armor and weapons and combat skills, but it makes you twices as good as the next guy as opposed to 100 times as good... I like it... I like it a lot...
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City of Heroes Fanboy
Future Game Designer
All-around bad mutha-shutchomouf
The Illusion of Choice