Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Coming clean
Torak
Member Posts: 4,905
Ok guys,
I know I tease some of you a bit to much and I apologize for that.
Sometimes I lock on and don't let go of something.
Just so you know I had my losses with the NGE as well, let me explain. Yes, I played SWG in all of its forms. I was an Imp back in the day. No, I was a bad arse Imp (within the context of the game
not like in a megalomanic out of touch with reality sort of way). I had all the toys, the stromtroopers, the scout walkers, the uniforms, the armor the bases with troops. The guild I was in was full of people who were hard core Imps. We liked to go PvP and pick fights, we attacked bases and all that crap. We waged war on anyone rebel who was in our way. We had a bunch that took to space every night...But thats what the game was like back then. I understand where you guys are coming from.
Now where I am coming from today is this. I was just as disappointed as everyone else when they did the NGE trust me. It was no fun. What disappointed me just as much was how the community reacted. I feel that they are just as much to blame as SOE for stripping away what SWG was. We still had the basic game, we still could have salvaged it BUT to many gave up hoping that SOE would change it back....and it never happened and never will. They became the bitter vets of today waging an endless war against nothing.
I still like to log on. I like my YT1300 and many of my other toys but the game will never be the same, not because of the ruleset change but because of the community. There are some really cool, nice, great players in the current game but its structured a bit different and the PvP rebel vs Imp thing isn't the same anymore but it could be.
I never got to achieve my goal which was to build a huge successful Rebel PA just like the Imp one and maybe a neutral one.
Its not the graphics or the rules sometimes that makes MMO games, it's the people. As long as this endless bickering continues about pre and post NGE only the players suffer for it. No one in SOE cares about these boards or what we say. If they did they never would have gone there in the first place. But communities could have been build and order could have been restored to the galaxy (join me my sons, together we can rule the galaxy.....yikes, sorry got carried away)
I feel that SWG still offers a lot that most MMO's don't. In fact if you stand most MMOs up to SWG most can not compete on a feature by feature basis to this day. LotR can't, WoW can't, GW can't, name a game. I try to approach with "my logic" I try not to insult but I am very sarcastic.
Sometimes it comes out wrong. I also tend to provoke sometimes but understand its generally good natured.
I really don't play it to much anymore, its wore out and tired and that has nothing to do with the NGE, I was pretty burned before that. Since then I have encountered some people from this board ingame. All excellent players and nice people. Obraik is one of them. He is a great guy and I enjoyed my time in NGE with his help.
Would SWG have had a strong bright future if they never changed it? Honestly, probably not. The pops were shrinking before the NGE, Its old, MMOs die off, the shiny new games release (most of which fall flat on their faces) Lately everyone things AoC is going to save the world...well...its probably not but we will see.
Anyway, pick games you like, contribute to the communities, build, create, have fun thats what people are going to remember you for in gaming not how much you moaned and argued about it.
The battle for SWG pre -NGE is over. Yes, we lost, I lost, you lost but one battle doesn't win or lose the war. Something better will come one day, the genre is young, mistakes have to be made.
Comments
It's a scorched-earth war-to-the-knife now, but let's be very clear about something: the SWG player community didn't start this war, SOE/LA did. And they are the only ones with the power to end it.
After being stabbed in the back with the CU, I left the game in June; it took that long because I wasn't prepared for a clean shutdown and I wanted to give it a real chance. When I left, I seriously doubted that I would be back. But by September, I came to realize that, degraded as SWG was by the CU, I could learn to tolerate it. Come November, and SOE/LA did it to us again, ten times worse; they had not learned one flaming thing from what happened the first time. The only reason I didn't cancel as soon as I heard the announcement is because of the timing: my renewal date fell between the announcement and the weekend when NGE went on the Test Center. I like to think that I'm a fair-minded person who acts on facts, not fears.
No, the basic game was not still there, just its shell. The only way to salvage it is the reversal of just about every aspect of the NGE, and that isn't about to happen. Aside from 'the bird' (now in an advanced state of development, thank God), our fine game is gone and we are unlikely to see its like again. All that is really left is the pursuit of justice (and vengence, yes) against the perpetrators. I may be an exception but even now, I would be willing to end the fight for the poor sop of a classic server. But peace is not mine to give.
PRE CU is still by far the most successfull version of SWG why i should suddenly believe tales that some crapware will do any better if in 3 years they can't match up PRE CU numbers .
PRE CU is the core you can base upon a great Star Wars game anything else proofed wrong and as big bubble, a wrong promise and lie.
Take PRE CU, fix the bugs add to that...a great recipe.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
It doesn't matter which one was best. There is no war to fight.
No one here on this board had anything to do with changing it or can do anything about it.
You want to fight a war come join us in Iraq. This is a generic video game forum board. It is about as distant from making a difference in anything as you can get.
I dunno, ,maybe it was SOE telling everyone that they didn't care about how we felt, or if anyone left because we would be replaced.
Maybe its THAT kind of attitude that ran everyone off. Maybe it WASN'T the fact they made the game suck. Perhaps it was that they openly and blatantly shoved every last old player to the side and said "We don't care about you anymore...we have a new player that we want".
I suppose actions like that WOULD cause a community to flee overnight. I also suppose you can't fault them for it even a tiny bit. I may not agree with everything that goes on around here, on either side, but I do agree with the notion that SOE takes full blame for ruining this game. You just don't outright rob players and THEN tell them to shove it. Maybe you missed that part of the whole thing, but I didn't. If it had been as simple as "they changed the game and I didn't like it", I'd still at least try other SOE games. No, no...I don't even so much as look at SOE games generally. I pretty much boycott the entire Sony company as a whole. Making changes to game isn't enough to cause that kind of reaction...you HAVE to understand that.
Go into any mmorpg and mention SWG in general chat. The response you get is proof that we won.
Go look at the market share of all existing mmorpgs. See the decline in SOE games? It's proof that we won.
Go to the official SWG forums and look at all the posts from players begging us vets to come back and repopulate their empty servers. Yep, that's us winning again.
What I am saying this vet vs player thing is silly. Nothing anyone does, writes here will have an impact on anything. The "battle" is with SOE, take it to them. Let us know how it goes. Who knows, maybe if there was some sort of organized effort, it might make a difference. Lashing out in a thousand ways at people who can't do anything about it isn't going to change anything. SOE is a corporation full of corp tools like any other corporation. I'm here to tell none of them give a rats arse about anyone. All they care about is the bottom line.
I am an MMO advocate. I love MMO's.
All that energy wasted on this subject. I advocate joining an MMO community. I advocate making guilds, helping other players, making positive contributions to communities and having fun with it. Write guides, map areas, write walkthroughs, make a noobs day in the game you are playing. Thats what MMO gaming is really about. There isn't a single game out there you can't do that sort of thing in.
I guess if this makes people "feel good" about how they contribute to the MMO community, so be it.
Anyway, good gaming.
What I am saying this vet vs player thing is silly. Nothing anyone does, writes here will have an impact on anything. The "battle" is with SOE, take it to them. Let us know how it goes. Who knows, maybe if there was some sort of organized effort, it might make a difference. Lashing out in a thousand ways at people who can't do anything about it isn't going to change anything. SOE is a corporation full of corp tools like any other corporation. I'm here to tell none of them give a rats arse about anyone. All they care about is the bottom line. I think thats all that vets have ever said to the people that play...why are you telling them that?
I am an MMO advocate. I love MMO's.
All that energy wasted on this subject. I advocate joining an MMO community. I advocate making guilds, helping other players, making positive contributions to communities and having fun with it. Write guides, map areas, write walkthroughs, make a noobs day in the game you are playing. Thats what MMO gaming is really about. There isn't a single game out there you can't do that sort of thing in. Ya we know we've been doing it too since we left swg. Glad to hear you like doing the same things we do. Also, It doesnt take energy to make a forum post, it takes a minute maybe.
I guess if this makes people "feel good" about how they contribute to the MMO community, so be it. Did this post make you "feel good"? There is no vet vs. player thing from the vet side. Only a vet vs. "what soe did was OK side".
Anyway, good gaming.
You too.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Most of us don't waste more than a few seconds here. I mostly come here when I don't have time to play a game...or don't have a game to play at the moment. Some of the others DO waste more time on it...one guy has a website he built around SOE being made of suck and fail. Maybe he is wrong, I dunno. Its not my place to judge what is or is not the best use of someones time. I feel that whatever gives a person back what he puts into it is a good use of time. If Sav enjoys making his SOE hate site...thats good enough for me. Its also handy that someone is keeping up with all this for me, because I'm far too spread out to have time for it.
In the end, right or wrong, I agree with what even the most hateful vets are doing. They are keeping an ideal alive, and its one that needs to stay alive. Don't crap all over your fans and tell them to shove it. I think that as long as this kind of hate stays alive...that the response from the industry will mimic it. I think that the backlash over these events has caused many major MMO companies to really be careful about how they address their players. I also think its prevented more instances of "NGE-ing" to occur...because there is now a statistic and a chart to show the results of such a choice. That chart shows that, besides losing a ton of subs upfront, you suffer a long corporate life of having those players NEVER let you live it down.
Deterrences are always good. I say we keep them. Should SOE finally be allowed to move past this? Probably...but hey, they just have to bite the bullet on this one for being the first to make such a horrible, and horribly large, bad choice. No offense to the guys...but its good for the industry that consumers take these stances. Its a form of self-defense that we desperately need...because the OTHER option is government interference to protect us, and thats gonna do some pretty bad stuff to the market as a whole. For starters...its gonna shut out some of the smaller teams because they can't afford a legal team to work with. Indie teams as responsible for many of the things we love about these games, so I don't want them to be shut out.
Sure I agree to a certain extent. I have no issue with the fans of the older version.I hate to say this but SOE has moved on. They "bit the bullet" three years ago, dusted off and moved to the next project. SOE does not revolve around SWG. Its a perifery game. This whole episode is a footnote in MMO history. There is no need for a deterent, everyone in the MMO industry knows what this fiasco was about. No one is going to repeat it, its the joke of the developement world. You can read references in just about any interview.
If you really want to make a difference (not you specifically) you guys need to come up with some sort of PR friendly approach to gain OUR support. (the general MMO players) I don't think there is a gamer in the world who wouldn't support a movement.
No I don't believe "this isn't all we do". Any organized movement of any signifact impact clearly hasn't made it known and asked for general support.
IMHO, there could be enough people to support some sort of request to do something to change things. I don't doubt that. What I doubt is that enough people have actually done anything but complain on assorted forums and letters. Again, clearly the impact of the change hasn't convinced SOE where it counts (money) to do anything about it. Badgering players isn't going to effect anything. In fact, its eventually going to backlash as people tire of the subject. Gaining support for ageing games isn't exactly easy to do to begin with. Support needs to be cultivated and using the hammer to the head technique isn't going to work.
This needs to be approached from the angle that SOE could stand to make more money if they accomidated the older version. Thats all these Corporate guys understand. Show them bottom line. They have no responsibilty to anything else.
Government intervention? Sorry mate, our government has much bigger fish to fry then bringing back a patched video game. Now I'm not going to insult you by listing the issues our country is currently facing but this has no place at all in the governments interest. Legal action if that is what you mean, sure..but...who's going to pay for that? Don't you honestly think that some vulture lawyer who thought he score with this, wouldn't have done it by now?
SOE and MMOs is like a bull in a china shop. They have wrecked more games then any company in the industry. I don't think they do it on purpose, that would be insane, but they clearly are not very good at it...and its no secret. I mean come on, Pirates of the Burning Seas...WTF was that??? Happy server consolidation guys....pick up any useful leasons like how not to make an MMO?
Someday a Warhammer 40,000 MMO will release then we shall purge the market of all mutant, alien and heretic games.
I am sure all the realists were once haters, much like myself.
Account has been stolen, why would someone want to steal my account?
Let us know whenever you guys get some sort of organized plan, I will sign whatever to help you people out.
If you went to SOE with something that you could demonstrate that you had 50k or 100k supporters, that would be powerful. F*ck if they knew they could milk another 100k plus subs off this game they would build you your own server structure. If not, well then...oh well. smg77 claims to have 250k friends who support this, well get half of them to sign something already or 20% of them to show up at one of their conventions...if this is true, make it happen.
/shrug, I have my own theory about it, nothing has happened in the last three years because....not enough people really care. Its easy to post on a forum, like you guys have said, it takes but a minute. Its another matter entirely to actually do something about it. Could this even muster 10k supporters? Its a scarey thing to face isn't it? The truth is out there but as of right now, this moment, no one knows.
Is it to late? IMHO yes, by years BUT I have been known to be wrong on occassion. If I am, show me where I can support you in a meaningful way. You vets are all bark and no bite. For years we have endured the tiresome rhetoric (barking) about pre-NGE but none of you have actually done anything about it (bite) except for maybe a small handful. People on forums can not turn the old SWG back on but they can support you.
Only SOE has the power to do anything for you, there is where your battle is.
Until then, good gaming.
I respect your opinions Torak but I think that the "bark" is our "bite".
It's called word of mouth, and I think it has been successful. I've notcied in many discussions that questionable ethics has become synonomous with SoE, and that is a huge hurdle for them to overcome. And that is a really good thing IMO because SoE/SCE will have to work extremely diligently to correct that image.
We, as both consumers and gamers, will benefit in the long run if we continue to demand accountability.
Honestly, would anyone want to ever play an MMO again if they knew that at a moments notice the entire game/community/time was treated as disposable trash? I know I wouldn't put the same amount of effort into building a virtual society/community again under those conditions.
I think the questions of ethical treatment, bad management, etc comes from SOE own actins, not from a bunch of anonymous posters on a website. I mean, lets be real here, EVERY MMO out there has their loyal hater base that finds fault with something/everything in the game. I think the industry has watched SOE's actions and have made decisions of what to do or not to do based on the games developers actions. If the industry was to ever try and listen to the posters on various websites they would get no where and be indundated with lies, half truths and blatant misinformation on both pro and against the game in question.
I agree with Torak, I think the time has long since passed for any remenants of preCU players to take any decisive action against SOE. They ranted and raved but eventually the majority of lost players moved on and are for the most part imbedded in their new game(s) and quite honestly would not supprot the return of a now 5 year old game. Thats elderly for MMO's. Plus, whats to say they wouldn't change it yet again.
Then again, I may be wrong. There may be some hidden community that can rally the troops to get SOE to notice. I think if that group was really out there though, we would have seen it by now.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
Let us know whenever you guys get some sort of organized plan, I will sign whatever to help you people out.
If you went to SOE with something that you could demonstrate that you had 50k or 100k supporters, that would be powerful. F*ck if they knew they could milk another 100k plus subs off this game they would build you your own server structure. If not, well then...oh well. smg77 claims to have 250k friends who support this, well get half of them to sign something already or 20% of them to show up at one of their conventions...if this is true, make it happen.
/shrug, I have my own theory about it, nothing has happened in the last three years because....not enough people really care. Its easy to post on a forum, like you guys have said, it takes but a minute. Its another matter entirely to actually do something about it. Could this even muster 10k supporters? Its a scarey thing to face isn't it? The truth is out there but as of right now, this moment, no one knows.
Is it to late? IMHO yes, by years BUT I have been known to be wrong on occassion. If I am, show me where I can support you in a meaningful way. You vets are all bark and no bite. For years we have endured the tiresome rhetoric (barking) about pre-NGE but none of you have actually done anything about it (bite) except for maybe a small handful. People on forums can not turn the old SWG back on but they can support you.
Only SOE has the power to do anything for you, there is where your battle is.
Until then, good gaming.
That part of where you can support the coming back of Pre-CU is forbidden talk on these forums. But I did PM you of a few places where you can see where you can pledge your support, and easily see how large the community that is waiting for the return of Pre-CU SWG.
Eh no, you can cry out for preCU day in and day out on the vet forum. The ones that are blocked on this site, per the ROC, are the talks and advertising of emulation servers/games.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
I think the questions of ethical treatment, bad management, etc comes from SOE own actins, not from a bunch of anonymous posters on a website. I mean, lets be real here, EVERY MMO out there has their loyal hater base that finds fault with something/everything in the game. I think the industry has watched SOE's actions and have made decisions of what to do or not to do based on the games developers actions. If the industry was to ever try and listen to the posters on various websites they would get no where and be indundated with lies, half truths and blatant misinformation on both pro and against the game in question.
I agree with Torak, I think the time has long since passed for any remenants of preCU players to take any decisive action against SOE. They ranted and raved but eventually the majority of lost players moved on and are for the most part imbedded in their new game(s) and quite honestly would not supprot the return of a now 5 year old game. Thats elderly for MMO's. Plus, whats to say they wouldn't change it yet again.
Then again, I may be wrong. There may be some hidden community that can rally the troops to get SOE to notice. I think if that group was really out there though, we would have seen it by now.
err ...no.. a big potion of members of my guild still wait for PRE CU or a PRE CU similar sandbox.
May some being temporally spread out in various games yet but we re united in a sec in a PRE CU Star Wars to rebuild our city. We still in contact through boards and such andfrom that i knowthat only 4 peeps remained in the NGE and that cause they liked space game. Most in WoW ..bored... some in LOTRO.. and some no MMO atm (for them it is PRE CU or nothing anyway). ..
--oh well it may not cover the big community numbers but who says there are not a number of guilds like us ----
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Would it have done better without nge?Yes
Would it have continued to shrink and die even without nge but at a slower pace?Yes
It was slowly dying due to age,lack of direction where to go and a poor launch.
The boost it had later had actually little to do with the game and more to do with the fact the star wars movies were showing in cinemas and drew a bit of a crowd.
SoE went crazy and desperate to cash in further with this crowd before the lore of the movie died and messed up.
Most players didn't leave SWG because of the NGE.
Most players found a funner game, for them.
Players get bored, and go with the next big thing. It happens. SWG is still a great game, I played it like 15 hours this week.
And yes, I played in some form or another since the beginning.
Listen to the Spouse Aggro podcast at spouseaggro.com. Twitter: spouseaggro
If they had just fixed the bugs in the old game the NGE wouldn't have been necessary. SWG used to be the second biggest mmorpg in North America and SOE blew it.
Lets be clear about one thing. SOE made the NGE without the players knowledge and did everything in their power to make sure the players did not learn about it until it was to late to do anything about it. SOE made it crystal clear that there was no more "we" when it came to how this games direction was going. There was no consideration for you, me or any of the other vets. On several occasions they even made snide comments about those they upset. There was no "we" that could salvage anything.
To imply even the slightest that vets are the problem is insulting. SOE made their own bed and the reactions they received are justifiable. You claims that people who didn't just suck it up and take it for the team are somehow just as much to blame is crazy and that is being nice.
Its irrelevent what I have to say, its what the vet community has done about it over the last THREE years, the action, that counts.
What have they done? A big fat ZERO beside sit on their duffs waiting for someone else to fix the problem for them and badger people on forum boards.
Where is the organized movement? Where are the professional websites? Where are the logos for support we can put in our sigs or avatars? Where are the interviews with professional websites and publications to drum up support? Where are the attempts to negotiate something with SOE with substance and backing? Where are organizations representing the pre-NGE view at the SOE fan faires? I'll tell you, its does not exist. For three darn years this mythical 250,000 vet community has been unable to organize or even muster up a single shred of support or legitimate pre-NGE movement.
What have any of you on this board who claim to be vets done to support a pre-NGE movement aside from troll a generic forum board and wait for someone else to fix the problem for you?
Like I said, I would support you and I think many gamers would BUT there is nothing to support at this moment.
Be insulted if you like and thats all you can see or read but what have you done? Only SOE can fix this not me. And putting all your hopes in an emulator project, well like I said, vets are just waiting for someone else to come along and fix the problem for them. How many years has the emulator project been around? How many more years will it take? How much longer is it going to survive? What happens when whoever is working on it gets bored with it / has new life situations come up / moves on / SOE takes legal action (which they are prone to do) or countless other things that could end something like that in a day.
What have you vets done? Show us how to support you in your fight for your pre-NGE servers or ....stfu already. Stop being so darn sensitive and insulted at everything and grab your set and do something about it. Only SOE can help you. It doesn't matter one bit what is written here. SOE moved on, they could give a rats rear about this. You guys need to make this happen.
But all I'm going to get is nit-pick replies isolating certain comments or phrases I wrote about how wrong I am and how bad I am, how insulting it is, how no one ask for it or whatever rather then anyone doing anything. The end result will be ZERO as usual.
Without a plan there is no attack and without an attack there can be no victory. Badgering people on generic forum boards equates to doing nothing.
Anyway, I wish you guys luck with that whatever path you choose. Continue to annoy other forum posters with the illusion that its is somehow making a difference or building a movement of tens of thousands (like the vets claim to exist) and flexing some consumer muscle. It should be easy for people with a real passion.
Torak "Its irrelevent what I have to say"
You should have stopped there , I agreed with you up untill that point .
Amen!
Your assumption is that the only possible outcome is for a classic server, when in fact another possible outcome is to educate and warn fellow gamers of the percieved issues regarding SoE/SWG - and of the potentially dangerous precedent of what the NGE represents.
I personally believe dialogue and good converstation is doing something about it, as it encourages SoE to work better at fixing their image - and hopefully ensures that others do not attempt to discard their customers so casually.
After all knowledge is power , so the more informed the consumer is the better off the industry becomes IMO.
Do you really think that someone at SOE/Lucas would have changed anything if only the poor poor players had set up a website or something else? Try imperialcrackdown.com or the petition that went 12k signatures before SOE killed it or the fact that people were organizing cancelations. I saw a few efforts made early on though, but I am sure no expert on many things that where done. However I am 100% sure it would not make a difference. Just because you didn't see or like what was being done doesn't mean nothing was happening. Tell me what you think could get SOE to change SWG back, lets hear your ideas instead of you complaining about those complaining? Hows that for an idea?
Your insistance to continue blaming vets for somehow sharing in the responsibility of this is downright crazy. The vets, including me and you, are almost powerless in this situation with 2 exceptions.
I did the two things that as a consumer I have complete power over and the one and only thing SOE will ever listen to. I stopped giving SOE any money that day and I also speak my mind whenever applicable. Let me ask you a question, what have you done besides continue to give SOE money and argue with those who don't? When you have a decent answer to that then you are welcome to come back here and question those who took the much harder road of voting with their wallet. Until then please do not ever question the actions of those who did what you are not willing to do.
Also please stop doing Sonys dirty work by trying to misdirect blame for their mistakes onto someone else. I don't know what it is with SOE subscribers, but there always seems to be someone or something else to blame. It is uncanny really.
To answer your original question even though it doesn't deserve an answer. Most vets have accepted that there will never be change in SWG again. Most do not trust nor want to try to convince SOE to change their ways as we know this leopard will never change its spots. SOE was openly dismissive of their customers, because they thought we would be easily replaced and has never tried to make amens with us. We are the constant and painful reminder of their actions. We have hit them where it counts [in the wallet] and that is a victory.
Maybe someday SOE will get off their duff and try to fix the problems they have created instead of having their fans expect everyone who was wronged by the company join hands in an effort to save a group of idiots.
Any RATIONAL company would have already changed in response to player outrage and negative media of this proportion. Do you really think some signatures on a webpage would change anything?
Well if SWG become unfunny and boring cause of the NGE then most people left cause of the NGE.
What was the big thing that was published Nov/Dec 2005 and people left for that like you claim ?
It is clear that SWG become boring and crap with NGE and that made other MMO's more attractive to SWG players, they wouldn't consider to play those else, that way i am agreeing.
It is still that way many prefer to play boring WoW than to play crap NGE.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)