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Twisting The Knife

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  • IlliusIllius Member UncommonPosts: 4,142

    Originally posted by heartless

     If you're going to attempt to play this game like WoW, like Keen and Graev did, you're in for an unpleasant surprise. BTW, their PvP weekend videos are a laughing stock of the whole AoC community.
    You just about hit the nail on the head right there.  They went into the pvp weekend with a preconceived notion and opinion of a game.  If you were really in it to try a game out I'd at least hope you'd go in with an open mind and play it as it was designed without looking for or comparing it's mechanics and game play to other standing titles out on the market.

    Until I try this game for myself and then make the call, I'm just gonna go by what claims FunCom makes and see if any of it is realized when the game launches.  After all what Keen and Graev are expressing are after all their personal opinions and more then likely won't match my own when I get around to play.

    No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-

  • phatpeteyphatpetey Member Posts: 323

    Hi,



    Didn't knew that about AoC, and I must say I don't like it at all. I really like Raiding but not if you have to do it to level your character up and playing offline till you're level 60? ? ? I didn't knew that at all and I guess if all people start realising that they will go and choose for WAR.

    image

  • heartlessheartless Member UncommonPosts: 4,993

    Originally posted by phatpetey


    Hi,



    Didn't knew that about AoC, and I must say I don't like it at all. I really like Raiding but not if you have to do it to level your character up and playing offline till you're level 60? ? ? I didn't knew that at all and I guess if all people start realising that they will go and choose for WAR.

    Read the repplies. The original poster is incorrect on many accounts.

    image

  • Jimmy_ScytheJimmy_Scythe Member CommonPosts: 3,586

     

    Originally posted by Briansho


     
    Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe


    So just found out the bad news about Age of Conan.
    For those of you that don't know, AoC is going to be all about the raiding and raid gear. To get the best gear in the game, you're going to have to raid. You can't start raiding until you hit level 80, but since you'll be playing offline till level 60 that may not seem so bad. To make it sting just a little bit less, the raids will only be 24 players max.
    PvP? Yeah, it's hardcore... If you call losing XP every time you get killed "hardcore." It's even possible for your progress to be lowered to zero for your level if you get killed too much. Did I mention that you only get between 1/2 to 1/3 of the XP for a killed in relation to how much you lost from death? And just to make sure that you're really hurting, the gear you get from PvP still won't be as good as what you get from raiding.
    Why do developers pull this shit? We all hate grind. We've all been very vocal about hating grind. We've voted with our dollars by buying WoW and Guild Wars by the truckload because they confined grinding to the end game. Is this really so hard to figure out?
    Vangaurd tried twisting the knife too and look what happened. A game that could have been a haven for old schoolers got sunk by bugs, which the olde skoolers wouldn't put up with, and apathy from casuals that wanted no part of the massive treadmill.
    I was kind of hoping that AoC would bring something interesting to the table in regards to combat and PvP. As it stands, AoC is a one trick pony that's relying entirely on the novelty of it's combat system and IP to attract gamer interest. It will, but titties and semi-real-time combat are probably not going to hold that interest.

     

    Thats a pretty carebear statement. Based on all this info if you go out and pay for this game and play it, then come back here and whine then I have no sympathy for you. Dude, WTF??

     

    HAHAHAHAHA!! He used the word "CAREBEAR!" HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! You are one clever guy! I've never heard that before! Did you make that up yourself? "Carebear" HA! priceless! Really, you should have your own radio show or something. Your wit is really incredible...

    Personally, I have no tolerance for raiding and adding another raiding treadmill to MMO mix is like making yet another freaking Halo clone in the FPS genre. Been there, done that, didn't even get a damn T-shirt. You're mileage may vary, of course.

    The concept for the PvP is straight up broken. The result of these moves is a bell curve where those at the top become invincible and those at the bottom can never catch up enough to even be moderately competent. Even if those that fall behind learn to play, their new found skill will be offset by the stat penalties that they've incurred. Those at the top will have not only have their natural understanding of the game, but also a nice fat gear advantage.

    AoC is still an RPG no matter what direction Funcom spins it. Build, stats and random rolls are still going to decide the outcome of most combat encounters. If you handicap in favor of the winning best team and against the worst team, guess who's always going to win and who's always going to finish last. This system shuts down the mobility that is crucial to actual competition. Use your brain and think about it rather than trying to wave your epeen.

    BTW, I'll admit that I'm way off on the offline component in this game, but no one else seems to have a concrete number either. On this thread we've heard that the offline part ends at level 5 or it end at level 20. Which is it? Does anyone actually know?

  • singsofdeathsingsofdeath Member UncommonPosts: 1,812

    Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe


     
    Originally posted by Briansho


     
    Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe


    So just found out the bad news about Age of Conan.
    For those of you that don't know, AoC is going to be all about the raiding and raid gear. To get the best gear in the game, you're going to have to raid. You can't start raiding until you hit level 80, but since you'll be playing offline till level 60 that may not seem so bad. To make it sting just a little bit less, the raids will only be 24 players max.
    PvP? Yeah, it's hardcore... If you call losing XP every time you get killed "hardcore." It's even possible for your progress to be lowered to zero for your level if you get killed too much. Did I mention that you only get between 1/2 to 1/3 of the XP for a killed in relation to how much you lost from death? And just to make sure that you're really hurting, the gear you get from PvP still won't be as good as what you get from raiding.
    Why do developers pull this shit? We all hate grind. We've all been very vocal about hating grind. We've voted with our dollars by buying WoW and Guild Wars by the truckload because they confined grinding to the end game. Is this really so hard to figure out?
    Vangaurd tried twisting the knife too and look what happened. A game that could have been a haven for old schoolers got sunk by bugs, which the olde skoolers wouldn't put up with, and apathy from casuals that wanted no part of the massive treadmill.
    I was kind of hoping that AoC would bring something interesting to the table in regards to combat and PvP. As it stands, AoC is a one trick pony that's relying entirely on the novelty of it's combat system and IP to attract gamer interest. It will, but titties and semi-real-time combat are probably not going to hold that interest.

     

    Thats a pretty carebear statement. Based on all this info if you go out and pay for this game and play it, then come back here and whine then I have no sympathy for you. Dude, WTF??

     

    HAHAHAHAHA!! He used the word "CAREBEAR!" HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! You are one clever guy! I've never heard that before! Did you make that up yourself? "Carebear" HA! priceless! Really, you should have your own radio show or something. Your wit is really incredible...

    Personally, I have no tolerance for raiding and adding another raiding treadmill to MMO mix is like making yet another freaking Halo clone in the FPS genre. Been there, done that, didn't even get a damn T-shirt. You're mileage may vary, of course.

    The concept for the PvP is straight up broken. The result of these moves is a bell curve where those at the top become invincible and those at the bottom can never catch up enough to even be moderately competent. Even if those that fall behind learn to play, their new found skill will be offset by the stat penalties that they've incurred. Those at the top will have not only have their natural understanding of the game, but also a nice fat gear advantage.

    AoC is still an RPG no matter what direction Funcom spins it. Build, stats and random rolls are still going to decide the outcome of most combat encounters. If you handicap in favor of the winning best team and against the worst team, guess who's always going to win and who's always going to finish last. This system shuts down the mobility that is crucial to actual competition. Use your brain and think about it rather than trying to wave your epeen.

    Now, I am not saying anything about the things you say about the way PvP should be a fair thing and whatnot.

     

    However, while you advise others to use their brains, you use false and/or unconfirmed information in your own post.

     

    The first paragraph is simply an outright false statement.

     

    The PvP Death/Kill ratio is not settled in stone and as FC have stated, they are listening to the feedback from the players about this issue.

     

    So, until something definate has been said on the matter, your points are rather weak, if not, as the first point, completely wrong.

  • NeanderthalNeanderthal Member RarePosts: 1,821

    Originally posted by gestalt11

    Originally posted by paulscott


    I knew AoC was a raiding game for quite some time(a little over a year, got flammed for mentioning and further flammed when I said the logic+video).  basically since one of those event thingies where we got all the fancy videos, the developers fricking bragged about how much time a raid was going to take and on camera.
    when you talk about it on camara for a short 8 minute interview to show off your game and get free hype you're going to show a very broad aspect of your game.

    Ditto.

    Yep, I remember you (gestalt11) talking about this.  Also a guy named Pantastic who I haven't seen on these boards for a while.  I know I've been warning people about this for something like two years.  I tried to space out my posts about it so I wouldn't come arcoss as a total ass but every once in a while I'd bring it up again.

    It's going to be so raid centric it isn't even funny. 

    And the way they've set up the PvP rewards is a joke for the average Joe gamer.  The only people who will have any shot at those items are the no-life 24/7 players.  And, as someone else pointed out, the way the system is set up the first guys who get those rewards will then have a built in advantage which will make it even less likely for any normal people to have a chance.  The only other people who will have a shot at the pvp rewards are no-life raiders with raid gear who have farmed out all the current raids and decide to spend their time pvping untill the expansion.

    And the idea that crafted gear will be  the alternative gear for people who don't want to farm raids is just a twisted practicle joke.  Because the devs have admitted that the best crafting materials will come from raids.  So if you want competative crafted gear you're still going to have to farm raids to make it.

    The AoC devs BELIEVE that PvE raiding is the end-all be-all of mmorpgs.  And that belief is deeply ingrained in their design philosophy.  They even have this idea that the reason people hate raiding is because they haven't been in guilds capable of doing it.  So, to that end, they have done everything they can to try to push people into big guilds with the idea that once players are in a big guild they will naturally gravitate towards raid farming, get sucked into that grind, and keep paying their subscriptions.

    I guess it won't be much longer and we'll see how that works out for them.

  • CleffyIICleffyII Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 3,440

    My prediction is coming true.  Requiem Sleeper Hit of May 2008.  All thanks to the AoC Hype Machine and subsequent disappointment.

    I think the developers of AoC should have looked at games like Rakion and NavyField when developing thier PVP content.  If they heard player responses on those games when they were in beta, they would have learned that gaining 1/3rd the exp of killing another player as opposed to the exp the other player loses is a bad scenario.

    image

  • paulscottpaulscott Member Posts: 5,613

    I thought PvE and PvP were seperate.  IE no bringing in raid gear, after all there's a huge differance between the max of 20 for PvP and the max of 80 for raiding.

    I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.

  • singsofdeathsingsofdeath Member UncommonPosts: 1,812

    I'll say this again. The OP has made some incredibly false statements in his post and the rest is assumptions based on incomplete statements.

     

    You do not play Solo to Level 60.

     

    Raid and PvP Gear are seperated, so that the gear you gain from PvP will always be better for PvP than the PvE gear and vice versa. Edit: And crafted gear can be customized to your desire.

     

    The Kill/Death Ratio and experience loss has not been decided. In fact FC has -ASKED- the community to give them feedback on the issue so that this will be implemented in a way that is fair.

     

    That's all.

  • safwdsafwd Member Posts: 879

    Well, raiding is one aspect of endgame because (wait for it)  THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO LIKE TO RAID!!!

    This seems like another post from someone who wants to get the same benefits as someone willing to put in the hours to raid but is unwilling to do it themselves.

    I played EQ for 4+ years and never went on one raid (actually i may have gone on one to the Plane of Nature, as a Druid, go figure). And i never missed out on gear. Did i get what the bigtime raids were getting, some of it i did because i bought it, the no drop stuff i could not get of course but i understood this because i was unwilling to raid.

    As long as there is something to do besides raid and PVP, like group content and even a little solo content, then who cares if there is raiding.

    Plus when it comes to facts, you kind of stink.

    PLUS, you said that no one wants a raiding grindfest (i take it we all voted and chose you to represent us) and then quoted WoW as a prime example of us not wanting it. All you do at max level in WoW is raid and grind so im not really sure what you are talking about. Perhaps you mean the 50 levels in 50 minutes that take place before you Raid and Grind. But then those 50 levels are a quest grind so what is the difference.

  • heartlessheartless Member UncommonPosts: 4,993

     

    Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe



    HAHAHAHAHA!! He used the word "CAREBEAR!" HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! You are one clever guy! I've never heard that before! Did you make that up yourself? "Carebear" HA! priceless! Really, you should have your own radio show or something. Your wit is really incredible...
    Personally, I have no tolerance for raiding and adding another raiding treadmill to MMO mix is like making yet another freaking Halo clone in the FPS genre. Been there, done that, didn't even get a damn T-shirt. You're mileage may vary, of course.
    The concept for the PvP is straight up broken. The result of these moves is a bell curve where those at the top become invincible and those at the bottom can never catch up enough to even be moderately competent. Even if those that fall behind learn to play, their new found skill will be offset by the stat penalties that they've incurred. Those at the top will have not only have their natural understanding of the game, but also a nice fat gear advantage.
    AoC is still an RPG no matter what direction Funcom spins it. Build, stats and random rolls are still going to decide the outcome of most combat encounters. If you handicap in favor of the winning best team and against the worst team, guess who's always going to win and who's always going to finish last. This system shuts down the mobility that is crucial to actual competition. Use your brain and think about it rather than trying to wave your epeen.
    BTW, I'll admit that I'm way off on the offline component in this game, but no one else seems to have a concrete number either. On this thread we've heard that the offline part ends at level 5 or it end at level 20. Which is it? Does anyone actually know?

     

    Raiding is optional in AoC. It's not be all, end all for getting top gear. Had you read my previous post, you would've understood that. As it is, I'm not going to repeat myself.

    As for solo "offline" content, it ends at level 20. Once you reach level 5-7ish. You go to Tortage where there is a mix of "offline" content (at night) and "online" content (during the day). Once you reach level 20, there is no more "offline" content for that particular character. Level 1-5 is the tutorial, leve 7-20 is the newbie zone.

    As for everything else, I and others have already answered your questions. It's not my job to talk you into playing the game. I'm just correcting the mistakes and misconceptions on your and Keen and Graev's part. By the way, you shouldn't take Keen and Graev's PvP experience at face value as those guys are pretty terrible at it. Yes you lose PvP experience for dying, yes it sucks but it's not hard to stay ahead--you just have to use your brain and learn your character's weaknesses and strengths.

    So all in all, yes AoC will have a grind but so does every other MMO out there. It's part of it means to be an RPG.

    image

  • GishgeronGishgeron Member Posts: 1,287

    Originally posted by safwd



    All you do at max level in WoW is raid and grind so im not really sure what you are talking about.
       A:  You're wrong.

      B:  You don't understand WHY

      C:  There is no difference, based on what we have been presented, between the options at endgame for WoW and those for AoC sans the sieges.  Assuming Blizzards adds what it promises to in WoTL (which, I've never seen Blizzard fail to add what they promise on a timeline) then there will be ZERO difference at all.

      So, really, AoC isn't anything based on the info presented thus far.  The few really dividing factors they had left (Bar Brawls and such) they have chosen to leave out.  I"m not naysaying man, but I'm also not so close minded or blind as to not see the CLEAR similarities.  The problem here ISN'T that there are similarities...its that current player expectation and hype are based around AoC being DIFFERENT.  It is clearly not, based on current dev direction and focus.  That little factoid alone is going to be deadly when reality strikes.

      Not saying its gonna be a bad game at all.  Could be the best game ever, for its direction.  The trouble is that all of the hype and interest that its been getting is based around the complete OPPOSITE of that direction.  There can be only one possible outcome from this.  Especially with the Blizzard war machine ready and willing to produce more options all the time.  These new games NEED some of those players, this market is probably peaked now.  Most MMO gamers don't like leaving a field they are comfortable with so long as it keeps providing them things.  If AoC does not begin to produce new things to offer up...well...its a double death blow.

      Particularly when WAR is playing a great card right now.  Their focus on the PvP aspect of their game and its RvR is at least offering the straggling WoW players something they can't get from Blizz.  They may have ripped everything else off from WoW, but by god they had the sense to take its game in a different direction.  No game has any hope anymore without making some changes to its direction...its just that simple.

      So, once again, the hype machine is likely to be the biggest failing this game could ever hope for.  I bet they do a really good job with their direction and content.  I think AoC will be awesome, but awesome really isn't enough.  I hope I'm wrong, because if they can't get a high player turnout...flat servers will mean dead sieging.  Thats bad....realllllly bad....because blizzard has 10 million players and they are about to launch a type of sieging themselves.

    image

  • CazNeergCazNeerg Member Posts: 2,198

    In a game that has 80 levels, it seems a little silly to say it is "all about" or centered around something that can't even be done until the 80th level.  What about levels 1-79?  Those aren't relevant at all?  They have a game for people with that philosophy; Guild Wars. 

    It seems really odd that so many people get angry about a game having options, and say they will refuse to play the game if it contains any options that they don't want to pursue. Huh?  This isn't rocket science, try out the game, keep playing as long as you keep having fun, then quit when you don't.   Arbitrarily dismissing a game you haven't even played because one minor aspect (that you can't even access until you've already invested many many hours) isn't to your liking is nothing but a way to screw yourself out of some potential enjoyment for no good reason.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • AlienovrlordAlienovrlord Member Posts: 1,525

    ANY form of XP loss would stop me from buying this game.

    Ever

    My game time is worth more than some gamers who don't care about wasting their time in pointless timesinks.    MMORPGs have enough grind in them already, XP debt is just another version of a grind disguised to be a 'challenge'. 

    The game is still in beta, they might drop this.  If they do then I'll look into the game once more.

  • singsofdeathsingsofdeath Member UncommonPosts: 1,812

    Originally posted by Alienovrlord


    ANY form of XP loss would stop me from buying this game.
    Ever
    My game time is worth more than some gamers who don't mindt re-treading their progress over and over.    MMORPGs have enough grind in them already, XP debt is just another version of grind disguised to be a 'challenge'. 
    The game is still in beta, they might drop this.  If they do then I'll look into the game once more.
    It's PvP XP loss. You do not lose normal XP, ever.

     

    Not saying that makes it better, just didn't know if you realized the difference.

     

    Cheers.

  • AlienovrlordAlienovrlord Member Posts: 1,525

     

    Originally posted by singsofdeath


     
    It's PvP XP loss. You do not lose normal XP, ever.
     
     Not saying that makes it better, just didn't know if you realized the difference.
    Cheers.



    Yes, I just realized the difference from the article and I was trying to edit my post but you were too quick.

     

    That is not as bad as losing normal XP but It doesn't sound like a system that's going to encourage PvP.     Only the most hardcore players will benefit so why would the other vast majority of players want to bother.    Esp. when the hardcore players will be getting the powerful gear that will make them even harder to kill.

    It reminds me of Funcom's other 'look-good-on-paper' ideas like sending mages to hell if they fail at spellcasting.  They realized the mistake of that game mechanic, we'll have to watch to see if they realize the mistake of this system. 

    I'm not at all surprised about the emphasis on raids.  AoC has always been a guild-centric game ever since they were talking about thier ideas of guild-based PvP and raids are a traditional mechanic for big, uber guilds.      Perhaps they've made some attempt to allow small guilds or casual players to participate but AoC has always been directing itself toward the big, hardcore guilds from the start.

  • GishgeronGishgeron Member Posts: 1,287

    Originally posted by Alienovrlord


     
    Originally posted by singsofdeath


     
    It's PvP XP loss. You do not lose normal XP, ever.
     
     Not saying that makes it better, just didn't know if you realized the difference.
    Cheers.
    Yes, I just realized the difference from the article and I was trying to edit my post but you were too quick.

     

    It doesn't sound like a system that's going to encourage PvP.     Only the most hardcore players will benefit so why would the other vast majority of players want to bother.    It reminds me of Funcom's other 'look-good-on-paper' ideas like sending mages to hell if they fail at spellcasting.  They realized the mistake of that game mechanic, we'll have to watch to see if they realize the mistake of this system. 

      While I realize that hell was a bad ideal...I can't imagine a more entertaining notion than that of seeing someone try to kill me in PvP and fail on a spell, after which he is sent to HELL.  Thats so much more rewarding than simply 'killing' the guy.  Much more indeed.  Its not FUN for him...but hey, it would be fun for me.

    image

  • safwdsafwd Member Posts: 879

    Originally posted by Gishgeron


     
    Originally posted by safwd



    All you do at max level in WoW is raid and grind so im not really sure what you are talking about.
       A:  You're wrong.

     

      B:  You don't understand WHY

      C:  There is no difference, based on what we have been presented, between the options at endgame for WoW and those for AoC sans the sieges.  Assuming Blizzards adds what it promises to in WoTL (which, I've never seen Blizzard fail to add what they promise on a timeline) then there will be ZERO difference at all.

      So, really, AoC isn't anything based on the info presented thus far.  The few really dividing factors they had left (Bar Brawls and such) they have chosen to leave out.  I"m not naysaying man, but I'm also not so close minded or blind as to not see the CLEAR similarities.  The problem here ISN'T that there are similarities...its that current player expectation and hype are based around AoC being DIFFERENT.  It is clearly not, based on current dev direction and focus.  That little factoid alone is going to be deadly when reality strikes.

      Not saying its gonna be a bad game at all.  Could be the best game ever, for its direction.  The trouble is that all of the hype and interest that its been getting is based around the complete OPPOSITE of that direction.  There can be only one possible outcome from this.  Especially with the Blizzard war machine ready and willing to produce more options all the time.  These new games NEED some of those players, this market is probably peaked now.  Most MMO gamers don't like leaving a field they are comfortable with so long as it keeps providing them things.  If AoC does not begin to produce new things to offer up...well...its a double death blow.

      Particularly when WAR is playing a great card right now.  Their focus on the PvP aspect of their game and its RvR is at least offering the straggling WoW players something they can't get from Blizz.  They may have ripped everything else off from WoW, but by god they had the sense to take its game in a different direction.  No game has any hope anymore without making some changes to its direction...its just that simple.

      So, once again, the hype machine is likely to be the biggest failing this game could ever hope for.  I bet they do a really good job with their direction and content.  I think AoC will be awesome, but awesome really isn't enough.  I hope I'm wrong, because if they can't get a high player turnout...flat servers will mean dead sieging.  Thats bad....realllllly bad....because blizzard has 10 million players and they are about to launch a type of sieging themselves.

    What i dont understand is What in the hedoublehockeysticks your talking about.

    I never said AOC was doing to be much different then WoW, sadly it will probably be pretty close to WoW.

    I was questioning why the OP said that the player base no longer wants raiding and grind then threw up WoW as the holy grail of the player base. Since endgame WoW is raiding and grind.

    So ya, your right.  I agree with everything you said, because i never said anything against it in the first place.

  • GishgeronGishgeron Member Posts: 1,287

    Originally posted by safwd


     
    What i dont understand is What in the hedoublehockeysticks your talking about.
     
    I never said AOC was doing to be much different then WoW, sadly it will probably be pretty close to WoW.
    I was questioning why the OP said that the player base no longer wants raiding and grind then threw up WoW as the holy grail of the player base. Since endgame WoW is raiding and grind.
    So ya, your right.  I agree with everything you said, because i never said anything against it in the first place.

      Well, I suppose my point (toward you) would be that the playerbase for this game probably doesn't (as a majority based on hype) want the same gameplay or direction as WoW.  I would add to this that WoW would BE the holy grail to them for such devices...if they do indeed prefer that direction.  Not because I like WoW, in particular, but because they have better resources and tend to deliver more of that content.  I guess the bottom line is, if AoC isn't gonna break the mold even a little...why in the hell choose it over a proven game which already is releasing the style of content you prefer?  For the Conan universe?  Honestly...how long does that really hold up?  Especially when Blizzard is churning out new raids every other month.

      I just don't really understand why you would take opposition to the post in question if you agree with what I said completely.  By the very standard we are measuring with, WoW would be the Holy Grail for this direction.  Which is the entire point of the thread...he's mad because they aren't even trying to push the envelope at all.  Not even a little.  The only thing they are "trying" is adding a couple of key presses to combat.  Most of the hype and fascination for this game has been centered around what they will do different.  If they aren't doing anything different...whats the point at all?  It doesn't even appear that they are paying attention to the lessons learned from the very games they are emulating. 

      I wasn't even watching this game...and I'M disappointed.  I was hoping that this game, and WAR, would push some new ideals into the genre to help it evolve.  They had the best position to do so with their strong teams and strong IP's.  Every time a company fails to do so...its that much longer we have to endure the 'same old same old' situation we've been choking on for 10 years now.  I may not have been interested in Conan...but I was certainly interested in how much they were going to help move us forward from this boring sink hole we've been stuck in.  To find that they will not...is so terribly saddening I may not even recover.

      Ok, so I'll be fine.  I digress.

    image

  • singsofdeathsingsofdeath Member UncommonPosts: 1,812

    Originally posted by Gishgeron


     
    Originally posted by safwd



    All you do at max level in WoW is raid and grind so im not really sure what you are talking about.
       A:  You're wrong.

     

      B:  You don't understand WHY

      C:  There is no difference, based on what we have been presented, between the options at endgame for WoW and those for AoC sans the sieges.  Assuming Blizzards adds what it promises to in WoTL (which, I've never seen Blizzard fail to add what they promise on a timeline) then there will be ZERO difference at all.

      So, really, AoC isn't anything based on the info presented thus far.  The few really dividing factors they had left (Bar Brawls and such) they have chosen to leave out.  I"m not naysaying man, but I'm also not so close minded or blind as to not see the CLEAR similarities.  The problem here ISN'T that there are similarities...its that current player expectation and hype are based around AoC being DIFFERENT.  It is clearly not, based on current dev direction and focus.  That little factoid alone is going to be deadly when reality strikes.

      Not saying its gonna be a bad game at all.  Could be the best game ever, for its direction.  The trouble is that all of the hype and interest that its been getting is based around the complete OPPOSITE of that direction.  There can be only one possible outcome from this.  Especially with the Blizzard war machine ready and willing to produce more options all the time.  These new games NEED some of those players, this market is probably peaked now.  Most MMO gamers don't like leaving a field they are comfortable with so long as it keeps providing them things.  If AoC does not begin to produce new things to offer up...well...its a double death blow.

      Particularly when WAR is playing a great card right now.  Their focus on the PvP aspect of their game and its RvR is at least offering the straggling WoW players something they can't get from Blizz.  They may have ripped everything else off from WoW, but by god they had the sense to take its game in a different direction.  No game has any hope anymore without making some changes to its direction...its just that simple.

      So, once again, the hype machine is likely to be the biggest failing this game could ever hope for.  I bet they do a really good job with their direction and content.  I think AoC will be awesome, but awesome really isn't enough.  I hope I'm wrong, because if they can't get a high player turnout...flat servers will mean dead sieging.  Thats bad....realllllly bad....because blizzard has 10 million players and they are about to launch a type of sieging themselves.

    I'd like to agree with you on several of your points. Most of them in fact. The hype being dangerous for the game etc. There are two things though I'd like to differ.

     

    1) WoW's Sieging. While it is true they apparently want to deliver that, I highly doubt (from what we know of it so far) that it will be anything like AoC's sieging. The main difference here is that WoW's sieging, whatever form it will take, will be Faction based, while AoC's sieging will always be Guild-Based. This is a personal preference choice. Some like it this way, some another. Also, I still can't bring myself to see WoW Sieges being massive. Having experienced Blizzard's Servers inability to cope with a big number of players in PvP and the subsequent introduction of the Battlegrounds, I think it is safe to assume that sieging in WoW will be instanced and limited in players like the other BG's (which is not to say that FC's Servers will be able to handle the stress. That remains to be seen).

     

    2) WAR playing the right card. From what I can see and from what I read, WAR is offering all the things AoC is offering, only packaged differently. You have your Battlegrounds there, too, only named differently. You have PvE content. And you have the big RvR fights (aka Sieges), only that in WAR it is again, faction based. So really, you don't have that much of a difference, only implemented differently. Now I am not saying I know how it will turn out, because I can't, but I think that both games, WAR and AoC will have their playerbase.

     

    Both won't touch WoW significantly.

     

    AoC and WAR -ARE- different from WoW, the problem is that most people seem to think that -BOTH- games will be so vastly different that there will be no similarities, which is silly. They both have different things to offer, but they both have their similarities as well. Saying it isn't so is just ignorant. Will the differences be enough to capture enough players?

     

    Well...that remains to be seen.

  • Punk999Punk999 Member UncommonPosts: 882
    Originally posted by Vendayn


    I think there will be PvP gear that is for PvP, the PvE gear is meant for PvE. Sort of like WoW where it has PvE and PvP gear.
     
    At least thats what I've heard on it.

    You heard right.

    "Negaholics are people who become addicted to negativity and self-doubt, they find fault in most things and never seem to be satisfied."
    ^MMORPG.com

  • komarrkomarr Member UncommonPosts: 214

    Pulling things back to the original topic.  While AoC has PvE, PvP and raiding, some people will never pvp or raid.  Some will only pvp.  People will play those parts of any game they like and leave the rest.   There is no rule that says people have to use every part of a game they buy.

    The Moving Finger writes, and, having writ,
    Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
    Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
    Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.

    ~Omar Khayyam

  • BigdavoBigdavo Member UncommonPosts: 1,863

    Ok OP while your whinging about games not meeting your unrealistic expectations I'll be enjoying the game for at least a few months, and hey I might even enjoy it for longer.

    OLD SKOOL IS DEAD.

    Stop your fruitless searching for the holy grail of mmo's because it is NEVER going to happen, this is a new rapidly rising market and devs are following a trend to make money. You will be forever bitching on these forums if you can't see this.

    I have played so many games from every single genre in my life that I am rarely amazed anymore, but I will give this game a crack because I know that just like WoW it's going to probably be fun till the lvl cap (at least). There is no game on the horizon, nothing on paper for the next 5 years at least that will ever meet your expectation.

    O_o o_O

  • GishgeronGishgeron Member Posts: 1,287

    Originally posted by Bigdavo


    Ok OP while your whinging about games not meeting your unrealistic expectations I'll be enjoying the game for at least a few months, and hey I might even enjoy it for longer.
    OLD SKOOL IS DEAD.
    Stop your fruitless searching for the holy grail of mmo's because it is NEVER going to happen, this is a new rapidly rising market and devs are following a trend to make money. You will be forever bitching on these forums if you can't see this.
    I have played so many games from every single genre in my life that I am rarely amazed anymore, but I will give this game a crack because I know that just like WoW it's going to probably be fun till the lvl cap (at least). There is no game on the horizon, nothing on paper for the next 5 years at least that will ever meet your expectation.

     ....

     

      Well there certainly never will be anything to meet his expectation if we all follow YOUR logic.  Yes, lets continue to buy everything these dev teams throw at us!  Let us not expect them to progress or move forward at all!

      What is so wrong about the expectation that the people making these games actively try and move the genre forward instead of sitting still or moving backwards altogether??

    image

  • NeanderthalNeanderthal Member RarePosts: 1,821

    Originally posted by komarr


    Pulling things back to the original topic.  While AoC has PvE, PvP and raiding, some people will never pvp or raid.  Some will only pvp.  People will play those parts of any game they like and leave the rest.   There is no rule that says people have to use every part of a game they buy.
    Wow!   That sounds great!

    Except...if you want to keep progressing your character (and you'll need to if you want to stay competative) you'll have to farm pve raids.

    "But..but..but, aren't pvp and pve gear seperate?" 

     NO, PVP AND PVE GEAR ARE NOT SEPARATE.  My God, that's the biggest load of BS hype there is about this game.  And I can't even blame the devs for this misconception because they NEVER said this.  This idea was invented by fans who WANTED it to be that way and then convinced each other that it would be.  The complicity of the devs in the misinformation is simply that they allowed the misconception to flourish and grow and didn't make any real attempt to set people straight.

    The way it works is that PvE stats on items and PvP stats on items will STACK with each other when the item is used in PvP.  When the item is used for PvE only the PvE stats count.  This means that an item with great big PvE numbers on it will have great big numbers in PvP as well.  But an item that only has great big PvP stats on it won't be worth jack sh-t in PvE.

    They did it this way to prevent people from using PvP items to bypass raid progression, NOT to prevent overpowered raid items from being used in PvP.

    But it's practically a moot point anyway since they decided to set up PvP rewards in such a way that only people who grind PvP like a full time job will ever get the PvP item rewards.

    "But..but..but, can't I make crafted items for PvP?"

    Sure you can.  But if you want to make anything worthwhile you'll have to farm raids for the materials. 

    In addition to that you are barred from making the best crafted stuff if you're not in a big guild.  See, you have to be in a guild with a instanced city of a certain tier or you can't even make the best of the crafted stuff.  And to have a city like that you'll need a fairly large guild.  That's part of their plan to push people into big guilds because they figure that once you're in the big guild you'll happily dedicate your life to raiding and all will be well.

    You don't believe what I'm saying?  Copy this post and save it.  Then if it's all proven wrong after release you come back to this board and repost it and throw it in my face and laugh and laugh and laugh at how you pwned me.

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