Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

You guys are to blame (and only you), not SOE.

Pjay2kPjay2k Member CommonPosts: 260

I read a lot complaints of players about Vanguard and how Sony Online Entertainement ruined Vanguard - Saga of Heros.

For at least 4 years, we Star Wars Galaxies Veterans told you guys about SOE's "talent" for continiously pissing off their paying customers by "improving" their games with major next generation improvements or game updates.

We told you guys how SOE made their customers search for non existent areas in everquest only to keep them paying and we also told you guys how they completely turned Star Wars Galaxies into the opposite of what the community asked SOE for.

We told you guys how SOE refuses to listen to their paying customers and how they simply copy game concepts and elements of successful titles such as world of warcraft to add them into their games with the desperate hope of beeing as successful as those titles...

I think you guys get my point. Read and think about it and then tell me again why you keep paying 15 bucks each month or arround 20 bucks for a SOE station pass access?

Just tell me why? do you think we SWG vets just post on mmorpg.com for fun, simply because we dont got a life and just want to ruin gaming companies reputation?

We got a good reason to share our experiences with Sony Online Entertainement and nothing will ever change if you guys keep paying them each month only to be dissapointed in the end.

 This is no flame-thread. I just try to clear things up.

SOE and NGE-Star Wars Galalaxies:
Raph Koster: "It's like dumping the girlfriend who has always been patient and loving to chase after the supermodel who probably won't love you back."

«134

Comments

  • ThillianThillian Member UncommonPosts: 3,156

    Aye SoE is trying to ruin every game they can hold on, and prolong its existence at the same time. Actually they make bets with each other how long they can keep a game, while ruining its gameplay.

    It is a negative that SoE does not listen to all the forum moans? Company should NOT listen to their so called community (which is consisted of forum whiners). The reactions and ideas are in 99% cases false and stupid. The company should have a vision and go for it all the time.

    REALITY CHECK

  • DarwaDarwa Member UncommonPosts: 2,178

    Hehe

     

    You're funny

  • chryseschryses Member UncommonPosts: 1,453

    I don't disagree with your statements but I do fear for game companies that may select SOE as a pure publisher with no development responsibilities.  I am gutted I didn't play SWG before it was hung, drawn and quartered.  Vanguard gave me some good moments but ultimately it did my head in.  However should we avoid companies that simply use SOE as a publisher also?  I will always look at who is developing the product and if it is SOE then 'yes' I may have an issue with it.   E.g. The Agency.  I doubt it will be anything more than the same old button smashing gameplay in a different genre.

     

     

  • funnylumpyfunnylumpy Member Posts: 212

    I pay because I like to play EQ2 and SWG and think it's great games, that you have your complaints and try to make people stop playing shows that you're just a bitter person that didn't get things your way.

    As for SOE ruining the games I don't think it's their intention but then again it depends on the person that plays and what he/she thinks if 1.000 people complains and 100.000 is satisfied I doubt you will get anywhere.

    I think SOE has done their market research and knows that the path chosen for their games is what they have found out to be the best one.

    If your posting wasn't intended to flame about something then stop complaining. I'm pretty satisfied with the games however as for paying for the games I think the future will be free gaming for all mmo.

    I play many good mmo's that is already free to install and play and I think this is the future for all pay mmo's as well.

    side note for those who don't like specific games please stop whining about it.. you can simply stop playing and start playing another one there is plenty to choose from.

  • Dwarfman420Dwarfman420 Member Posts: 207

    Jaded SWG vet comes to VG boards.

    Jaded SWG vet tells customers both fan & critic it's their fault for VG goin south.

    Jaded SWG vet says "It's not a flame".

    Jaded SWG vet fails.

    The end.

     

     

     

  • kakasiraykakasiray Member Posts: 23

    not the end of the world mate.just exchange a game to play.lol

  • funnylumpyfunnylumpy Member Posts: 212

    { Mod Edit }

    I simply said I like their games and if you have a problem with it I guess you should stop posting silly comments but then again I didn't expect something with more substance from those that don't like SOE's games or SOE in general.

    People are different and have different taste when it comes to games some like the changes and some don't.

    It will always be like that. Impossible to please everyone there is bound to be people that is unhappy about something.

     

     

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,350

    Originally posted by Pjay2k

    I read a lot complaints of players about Vanguard and how Sony Online Entertainement ruined Vanguard - Saga of Heros.  Every game has players who whine like children, VG is no different.

    I think you guys get my point. Read and think about it and then tell me again why you keep paying 15 bucks each month or arround 20 bucks for a SOE station pass access? One assumes they pay because they enjoy playing and think a station pass is a good deal.

    Just tell me why? do you think we SWG vets just post on mmorpg.com for fun, simply because we dont got a life and just want to ruin gaming companies reputation? Yes, actually I do think you guys post just for the fun of it.  I'm not sure what it was about SWG, but it has left some of the most bitter, angry gamers the world has ever seen who just cannot let it go. 

    We got a good reason to share our experiences with Sony Online Entertainement and nothing will ever change if you guys keep paying them each month only to be dissapointed in the end. Yes, you have your reasons, however you fail to realize, not everyone is disillusioned like you.  There are still people playing SWG and VG and enjoying themselves, which for some reason just frustrates you guys to no end.  Let them enjoy themselves and move on to something you like, please.

     This is no flame-thread. I just try to clear things up.  No need to really, just let it go and find your happy place. It should not be your mission in life to exact vengence on SOE, there's much better things to do with your time.

    Obviously no player is to blame for the debacle that is SWG, VG and SOE.  They are merely victims of a company that has shown over the years to have a poor feel for what their players really want, and have made numerous mistakes again and again.

    But we certainly don't need any more threads to point this fact out, most gamers are pretty much aware of it by this point.

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • TealaTeala Member RarePosts: 7,627

    Originally posted by Pjay2k


    I read a lot complaints of players about Vanguard and how Sony Online Entertainement ruined Vanguard - Saga of Heros.
    For at least 4 years, we Star Wars Galaxies Veterans told you guys about SOE's "talent" for continiously pissing off their paying customers by "improving" their games with major next generation improvements or game updates.
    We told you guys how SOE made their customers search for non existent areas in everquest only to keep them paying and we also told you guys how they completely turned Star Wars Galaxies into the opposite of what the community asked SOE for.
    We told you guys how SOE refuses to listen to their paying customers and how they simply copy game concepts and elements of successful titles such as world of warcraft to add them into their games with the desperate hope of beeing as successful as those titles...
    I think you guys get my point. Read and think about it and then tell me again why you keep paying 15 bucks each month or arround 20 bucks for a SOE station pass access?
    Just tell me why? do you think we SWG vets just post on mmorpg.com for fun, simply because we dont got a life and just want to ruin gaming companies reputation?
    We got a good reason to share our experiences with Sony Online Entertainement and nothing will ever change if you guys keep paying them each month only to be dissapointed in the end.
     This is no flame-thread. I just try to clear things up.
    Believe it or not SOE was only the publisher when VG launched.   My intuition told me not to start playing because there was a chance SOE would end up being in control.   Well I did not listen and they ended up in control.  The only reason I played the game originally was because SOE wasn't in control.   Then when they did take control Smedley said that the game would keep to the original plan.  He lied.  Lied like he always does.

    You may wonder why I am staying with the game.   Right now I dunno.

  • charlizdcharlizd Member UncommonPosts: 923

    I love the game easiest way is to ignore all the polotics and just move on.

    Oh by the Way can any 1 else log on for some reason i cannot even connect to the server?

    image

  • SeggallionSeggallion Member UncommonPosts: 684

    Or... Maybe they listen to the community, majority seems to like easy games. They don't give a damn about us, the minority who acctually likes a challenge.

    ______________________________
    The Sceptics, yes they're special but we've need them to.. I guess.
    And if they're put more effort MMORPG.com can create a 'Team Sceptic'
    and send them to the Special Olympus.

  • VultureSkullVultureSkull Member UncommonPosts: 1,774

    Originally posted by chryses


    I don't disagree with your statements but I do fear for game companies that may select SOE as a pure publisher with no development responsibilities.  I am gutted I didn't play SWG before it was hung, drawn and quartered.  Vanguard gave me some good moments but ultimately it did my head in.  However should we avoid companies that simply use SOE as a publisher also?  I will always look at who is developing the product and if it is SOE then 'yes' I may have an issue with it.   E.g. The Agency.  I doubt it will be anything more than the same old button smashing gameplay in a different genre.
     
     
    Any game company that willingly chooses SOE as a publisher deserves for their game to fail as if they don't know the reputution that SOE has in the MMO world then they should not be developing games in this genre in the first place.

    Even though SOE has nothing to do with the developement of the game, there are hordes and hordes of players that won't touch anything SOE has an input in.

    As for SOE themselves i recommend that they rebrand their company and look careful at how they do business in the future, it can't be that hard to get it right!

  • krenalorkrenalor Member Posts: 214
    Originally posted by funnylumpy


    I pay because I like to play EQ2 and SWG and think it's great games, that you have your complaints and try to make people stop playing shows that you're just a bitter person that didn't get things your way.
    As for SOE ruining the games I don't think it's their intention but then again it depends on the person that plays and what he/she thinks if 1.000 people complains and 100.000 is satisfied I doubt you will get anywhere.
    I think SOE has done their market research and knows that the path chosen for their games is what they have found out to be the best one.
    If your posting wasn't intended to flame about something then stop complaining. I'm pretty satisfied with the games however as for paying for the games I think the future will be free gaming for all mmo.
    I play many good mmo's that is already free to install and play and I think this is the future for all pay mmo's as well.
    side note for those who don't like specific games please stop whining about it.. you can simply stop playing and start playing another one there is plenty to choose from.



    SOE is the company that has 100,000 complain and 1000 satisfied and ignors the shout. Perhaps you don't remember the great "Warrior Stand-down" in EQ1, these were players that were so fed up they threatened to virtually shut down PoK. Then they quit for WoW, which in the opinion of WARRIOR players is a far, far, far superior game.

     

    "Far-fetched? Well, it seems that quality of life and fairness issues involving EverQuest's Warrior profession have driven the Warriors to the brink of mass protest. Players with warrior characters will log in at fixed times, in large numbers, and spam all major chat channels in the world with canned statements of grievances. It would be, to say the least, incredibly annoying and disruptive to other users."

  • DradiinDradiin Member Posts: 259
    Originally posted by Pjay2k


    I read a lot complaints of players about Vanguard and how Sony Online Entertainement ruined Vanguard - Saga of Heros.
    For at least 4 years, we Star Wars Galaxies Veterans told you guys about SOE's "talent" for continiously pissing off their paying customers by "improving" their games with major next generation improvements or game updates.
    We told you guys how SOE made their customers search for non existent areas in everquest only to keep them paying and we also told you guys how they completely turned Star Wars Galaxies into the opposite of what the community asked SOE for.
    We told you guys how SOE refuses to listen to their paying customers and how they simply copy game concepts and elements of successful titles such as world of warcraft to add them into their games with the desperate hope of beeing as successful as those titles...
    I think you guys get my point. Read and think about it and then tell me again why you keep paying 15 bucks each month or arround 20 bucks for a SOE station pass access?
    Just tell me why? do you think we SWG vets just post on mmorpg.com for fun, simply because we dont got a life and just want to ruin gaming companies reputation?
    We got a good reason to share our experiences with Sony Online Entertainement and nothing will ever change if you guys keep paying them each month only to be dissapointed in the end.
     This is no flame-thread. I just try to clear things up.

    This is so dumb on so many levels...  i had this huge reply i wrote but honestly.... troll on sir troll on.

  • GoldknyghtGoldknyght Member UncommonPosts: 1,516
    Originally posted by Pjay2k


    I read a lot complaints of players about Vanguard and how Sony Online Entertainement ruined Vanguard - Saga of Heros.
    For at least 4 years, we Star Wars Galaxies Veterans told you guys about SOE's "talent" for continiously pissing off their paying customers by "improving" their games with major next generation improvements or game updates.
    We told you guys how SOE made their customers search for non existent areas in everquest only to keep them paying and we also told you guys how they completely turned Star Wars Galaxies into the opposite of what the community asked SOE for.
    We told you guys how SOE refuses to listen to their paying customers and how they simply copy game concepts and elements of successful titles such as world of warcraft to add them into their games with the desperate hope of beeing as successful as those titles...
    I think you guys get my point. Read and think about it and then tell me again why you keep paying 15 bucks each month or arround 20 bucks for a SOE station pass access?
    Just tell me why? do you think we SWG vets just post on mmorpg.com for fun, simply because we dont got a life and just want to ruin gaming companies reputation?
    We got a good reason to share our experiences with Sony Online Entertainement and nothing will ever change if you guys keep paying them each month only to be dissapointed in the end.
     This is no flame-thread. I just try to clear things up.

    SOE didnt ruin vanguard. Sigil did! As for SWG that game was a pile when it launched and still is a pile today. They used the wrong timeline for the game for the UMPTEENTH time. And we keep paying SOE because we know we are just bitchin cuz its not our way but in the end we still love the game. So dont blame me because they cant produce grade A stuff because one that is not my job i pay them so they WILL fix the game. I pay them so that they will improve the game. If they happen to F it up i quit and move on. Quit holding on that is your problem not mine.

  • VultureSkullVultureSkull Member UncommonPosts: 1,774

    For your information:

    Sigil didn't ruin VG they didnt finish it

    SOE are in the process of ruining it.

  • boojiboyboojiboy Member UncommonPosts: 1,549
    Originally posted by Pjay2k


    I read a lot complaints of players about Vanguard and how Sony Online Entertainement ruined Vanguard - Saga of Heros.
    For at least 4 years, we Star Wars Galaxies Veterans told you guys about SOE's "talent" for continiously pissing off their paying customers by "improving" their games with major next generation improvements or game updates.
    We told you guys how SOE made their customers search for non existent areas in everquest only to keep them paying and we also told you guys how they completely turned Star Wars Galaxies into the opposite of what the community asked SOE for.
    We told you guys how SOE refuses to listen to their paying customers and how they simply copy game concepts and elements of successful titles such as world of warcraft to add them into their games with the desperate hope of beeing as successful as those titles...
    I think you guys get my point. Read and think about it and then tell me again why you keep paying 15 bucks each month or arround 20 bucks for a SOE station pass access?
    Just tell me why? do you think we SWG vets just post on mmorpg.com for fun, simply because we dont got a life and just want to ruin gaming companies reputation?
    We got a good reason to share our experiences with Sony Online Entertainement and nothing will ever change if you guys keep paying them each month only to be dissapointed in the end.
     This is no flame-thread. I just try to clear things up.



    Oh my, that was pathetic.

  • ThillianThillian Member UncommonPosts: 3,156

    Originally posted by VultureSkull


    For your information:
    Sigil didn't ruin VG they didnt finish it
    SOE are in the process of ruining it.

    Let's be honest. It is true and even I agree.

    But, we can only blame the average gamer. This is what market wants.. then we will get it. Why should one risk developing something for so much money and appeal only on small portion of the market.

    Majority of the gamers really do want simplicity and easiness. That's where VG is unfortunately heading.

    REALITY CHECK

  • boognish75boognish75 Member UncommonPosts: 1,540

    I am astonished at the progress of this game, it has done a 360 turnaround comparativley since launch, the state of the game at launch was an utter mess, bad coding, broken this unfinished that, i think that whatever dev team they have on this game atm should be shared to other games.

    pS on my edit, OP why are you not pointing the finger at lucas arts as well, im fairly adiment that LA enforced the swg changes on SOE to try to get a broader crowd, SOE isnt totally at fault with the swg fiasco, and if ya really want to see what an evil mmo company does take a look at Electronic arts, they buy out smaller mmo's and canel them and move the devs to ultima and sims online LOL

    playing eq2 and two worlds

  • GoldknyghtGoldknyght Member UncommonPosts: 1,516

    Originally posted by VultureSkull


    For your information:
    Sigil didn't ruin VG they didnt finish it
    SOE are in the process of ruining it.
    For Your Information

    SOE didnt ruin VG its was never Not ruined. SOE just wanted to make there money so they released it becuase you are the best BETA testers ever and are willing to pay to be one.

  • RekindleRekindle Member UncommonPosts: 1,206

    hardcore fanbois, a "rushed" beta (I use this term loosely because the game was in dev forever) and utterly incompotent Sigil management assed this one up.

     

    This is one that SOE doesn't get the credit for messing up.  Too many people are too quick to point the figure at the SOE logo on anything. 

    btw Vanguard is not Star wars galaxies.

    Also, Vanguard must be in the black or they would have pulled the plug by now so no matter what "experts" say the game must have enough subs to keep it running which means they're doing something right for someone.

  • ThillianThillian Member UncommonPosts: 3,156

     

    Originally posted by boognish75


    I am astonished at the progress of this game, it has done a 360 turnaround comparativley since launch, the state of the game at launch was an utter mess, bad coding, broken this unfinished that, i think that whatever dev team they have on this game atm should be shared to other games.



    I can't agree with it. Yes at release the game was horrible mess. Not because of bad coding as you say, but because it had to be released 4-5 months before finish, because the studio was cut off from money. Who wants to work for free?

     

    Sigil first 2 months after release made far more fixes than SoE did after 8 months. Obviously, when the studio has now only 20% of people it had before.

    Vanguard is playable now and it's fixed. Bugs are almost nonexistent and performance is great. People that whine about their crashes and bad performance currently either have very old system (ex-wow players) or they have a messy computer. You may disagree, but just imagine how many people are computer literate and are able to find out what's problem with their computer when something goes wrong. I believe it's very small percentage of people. Yes LOTRO might be more stable, but you can't compare Unreal 2.0 engine with Asheron's Call 2 engine used in lotro in terms of demand.

    The problem in VG is getting simplier and simplier every update. The combat is a great fun, but it's also quite easy. You must be killing 3-4 dotters to artifically increase the challenge. It doesn't make it bad game, it's just losing the challenging content it had before. But anyway, I'm still having a lot of fun playing VG and will do for very long time.

    REALITY CHECK

  • sephersepher Member Posts: 3,561

    The only relevant point about SOE is that the company does have a lot of negative connotations associated with it that do warrant MMO players being skeptical about the games they develop and publish. 



    Whether one believes Vanguard is the greatest or worst game ever, it doesn't matter so much as SOE has proven they'll definitely sell you crappiest game in existence if there's a chance there's at least a dollar of profitability in keeping the servers plugged in. 



    So its kind of silly to believe SOE won't make the kind of decisions for Vanguard that they've made for other games in their roster. 



    It's possible to nitpick and say that SOE has done great things for say EQII, but let games like The Matrix wane off. Well in such cases it's wise to be objective in thinking which games in SOE's catalog Vanguard is most comparable to financially. 



    EQII was expected and planned for, meant to be a flagship title and received such support thusly. As far as I understand it, EQII has a few hundred thousand subscribers currently and never ran a risk of flatlining beneath 50k subscribers. I could be wrong.



    Vanguard on the other hand was a financial disaster out the gate, proven by sinking its initial developer; proven again even post-SOE acquisition by continued staff lay offs and server mergers.



    Of course the optimistic keep saying "the populations are growing!". At the same time not ONE new server has opened, and new players are continuously told to hoard together on one server in order to see some semblance of a populated world. 



    Common sense dictates Vanguard is much more comparable to Planetside and Matrix when it comes to how financially benefitial Vanguard is in the SOE fold; and as such Vanguard might receive similar treatment to those unsuccessful games. That would explain the lack of any expansion announcements, the lack of any content additions other than what was worked on since Beta times and the fact that Vanguard's team is sharing Planetside's director anyway rather than an exclusive boss of their own.



    So basically, while I didn't experience all of that NGE stuff with SWG and I don't really feel scorned by SOE by any one item in particular, I believe its perfectly appropriate to accuse SOE of treating Vanguard with the same negligence and decision-making process they use on other games in their catalog that're similar in subscriber counts. 



    It doesn't take a genius to find a reason or two to speculate Vanguard will be treated more like Planetside than Everquest II; there's plenty of evidence that this is already the case with the aforementioned lack of any expansion announcements and staff cuts.



    It takes an extreme optimist however to believe that for some reason, some how Vanguard will receive a level of support above and beyond what EQII even received; EQII being a years planned for and depended upon flagship product built on an IP that'd sell bubble gum if the name was branded on it.



    It's really not about hating or loving SOE moreso than it is being realistic. I know some people LOVE Vanguard, but the zealous will not grasp the idea that maybe Vanguard is a financial disaster; that despite having so much potential, despite being spared from death, it's possible that SOE will do absolutely jack with Vanguard just as SOE has with titles of comparable financial success or lackthereof. 

  • funnylumpyfunnylumpy Member Posts: 212



    "SOE is the company that has 100,000 complain and 1000 satisfied and ignors the shout. Perhaps you don't remember the great "Warrior Stand-down" in EQ1, these were players that were so fed up they threatened to virtually shut down PoK. Then they quit for WoW, which in the opinion of WARRIOR players is a far, far, far superior game."

     

    Funny remark really... I mean since EQ2 at least have 500k players and the numbers for other SOE game I have no idea... so let's say the total of all SOE's games is 500k which is the 1% satisfied that means about 50mill player deserted or is unhappy about SOE... makes your posting just look silly. :)

    As for EQ1 stand-down I never read or heard anything about it since I never played or had any interest in EQ1.

    I tried WoW for a while but it wasn't to my likening so I tried EQ2 instead which is much better imo.

    As far for superior games it all lies in the eye of the beholder.

    I'm really tired seeing all this complaining about SOE's games I mean if you don't like it play something else instead of crying to everyone how bad the game is.

    All mmo's has it flaws and people just have to pick the one they like the best.

    I could go on about how bad I think WoW and other games is but I don't.. no interest in doing so. :)

     

     

     

     

  • GoldknyghtGoldknyght Member UncommonPosts: 1,516
    Originally posted by sepher


    The only relevant point about SOE is that the company does have a lot of negative connotations associated with it that do warrant MMO players being skeptical about the games they develop and publish. 



    Whether one believes Vanguard is the greatest or worst game ever, it doesn't matter so much as SOE has proven they'll definitely sell you crappiest game in existence if there's a chance there's at least a dollar of profitability in keeping the servers plugged in. 



    So its kind of silly to believe SOE won't make the kind of decisions for Vanguard that they've made for other games in their roster. 



    It's possible to nitpick and say that SOE has done great things for say EQII, but let games like The Matrix wane off. Well in such cases it's wise to be objective in thinking which games in SOE's catalog Vanguard is most comparable to financially. 



    EQII was expected and planned for, meant to be a flagship title and received such supportly thusly. As far as I understand it, EQII has a few hundred thousand subscribers currently and never ran a risk of flatlining beneath 50k subscribers. I could be wrong.



    Vanguard on the other hand was a financial disaster out the gate, proven by sinking its initial developer; proven again even post-SOE acquisition by continued staff lay offs and server mergers.



    Of course the optimistic keep saying "the populations are growing!". At the same time not ONE new server has opened, and new players are continuously told to hoard together on one server in order to see some semblance of a populated world. 



    Common sense dictates Vanguard is much more comparable to Planetside and Matrix when it comes to how financially benefitial Vanguard is in the SOE fold; and as such Vanguard might receive similar treatment to those unsuccessful games. That would explain the lack of any expansion announcements, the lack of any content additions other than what was worked on since Beta times and the fact that Vanguard's team is sharing Planetside's director anyway rather than an exclusive boss of their own.



    So basically, while I didn't experience all of that NGE stuff with SWG and I don't really feel scorned by SOE by any one item in particular, I believe its perfectly appropriately to accuse SOE of treating Vanguard with the same negligence and decision-making process they use on other games in their catalog that're similar in subscriber counts. 



    It doesn't take a genius to find a reason or two to speculate Vanguard will be treated more like Planetside than Everquest II; there's plenty of evidence that this is already case with the aforementioned lack of any expansion announcements and staff cuts.



    It takes an extreme optimist however to believe that for some reason, some how Vanguard will receive a level of support above and beyond what EQII even received; EQII being a years planned for and depended upon flagship product built on an IP that'd sell bubble gum if the name was branded on it.



    It's really not about hating or loving SOE moreso than it is being realistic. I know some people LOVE Vanguard, but the zealous will not grasp the idea that maybe Vanguard is a financial disaster; that despite having so much potential, despite being spared from death, it's possible that SOE will do absolutely jack with Vanguard just as SOE has with titles of comparable financial success or lackthereof. 



    Spot on

Sign In or Register to comment.