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An Observation From the Past

Greetings to one and all,

Many of us are curious about this game.  There is a vast following from the RTS Warhammer games.  Now, for my observation.  Warhammer is created and run by EA Mythic.  This the same Mythic that angered so many of the DAOC RvRers back in the late fall of 2003 with a series of poorly designed patches, insn't it?

As I recall researching some old archival forum posts from serveral old forums, like Warcry, for one, I have read so many posts that were not very flattering about Mythic's attempt at "balancing" classes.  Hmmmm, I wonder after initial release if this once again will plague Warhammer?

 

Just a thought, folks...

All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon

Comments

  • vmopedvmoped Member Posts: 1,708

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/163424

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/163395

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/165718

    These are just a few, there have been countless posts in the past speculating on WAR's future based on DAoC's past.

    MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S

  • alyndalealyndale Member UncommonPosts: 936

     

    Originally posted by vmoped



    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/163424
    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/163395
    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/165718
    These are just a few, there have been countless posts in the past speculating on WAR's future based on DAoC's past.

    Thanks vmped for these handy cross references.  Yeah, I would say that I missed these earlier posts.

     

    I am still a bit concerned though about balancing issues.  It would seem prudent now that the game is till under development to get it right as it were.  In other words, make sure you have some type of balance created and or updated before final release.

    The boon of most MMO's is the failure here to gain this type of balancing, if indeed it is ever possible to be completely equal in skills.  During these early days of DAOC, Mythic apparently made some errors with regards to patching.  As best I can figure from old forum posts, class balancing was only one of the issues here.

    Let us hope that Mythic considers this before making final release.  Patches are a part of MMO upgrades, but to change the style or playabilty is another thing entirely.  This thread, by the way can be regarded in any of the upcoming game release forums, such as AoC or Aion to name two.

    In my opinon, developers should leave the classes alone once they have decided to release.  It just "pisses" off way too many when you "nerf" characters!

    All I want is the truth
    Just gimme some truth
    John Lennon

  • elvenangelelvenangel Member Posts: 2,205

    And yet unlike other *cough* Soe *cough* companies Mythic did their best to listen to the outrage and even offered up servers Sans the Expansion alot of people hated.   Every MMO I've played has had a patch that was highly hated or controversal among some or most players.  Mythic atleast shows the ability to listen to its customers on reasonable problems unlike alot of other companys that just say "working as intented".   I think its this ability & willingness that sets them apart from companies like Blizzard, SOE, Turbine, & many other offenders of evil patches & expansions.

     

    btw there's nothing wrong with nerfs / balancing if its Necessary.  Some balancing issues get left out over the need to fix actual bug before an MMO goes live and others just were never found or reported until people actually reach the areas where things became unbalanced.   Part of the MMO nature is the constant changes, just some companies are better than others at balancing.  Hopefully Mythics rock paper scissors model for classes will keep balancing patches to a minimum after launch.

    Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!

  • alyndalealyndale Member UncommonPosts: 936

    btw there's nothing wrong with nerfs / balancing if its Necessary.  Some balancing issues get left out over the need to fix actual bug before an MMO goes live and others just were never found or reported until people actually reach the areas where things became unbalanced.   Part of the MMO nature is the constant changes, just some companies are better than others at balancing.  Hopefully Mythics rock paper scissors model for classes will keep balancing patches to a minimum after launch.

    _________________________________________

    Yes, to some extent this may be true.  But, consider this.  Why would you need to nerf any class if the alpha and open betas are patched and upgraded before release.

    Classes should not have to be redesigned or tampered with after release.  maybe new skills added for upgrading of a game, but not nerfing.

    This is simply a problem encountered by every MMO this has ever been designed and it needs to be resolved with these new games coming out, Warhammer being one.

    Thank you for your timely post btw :)

    All I want is the truth
    Just gimme some truth
    John Lennon

  • kintrikkintrik Member Posts: 194

    also the dark days of DAOC was truely caused by one man. (and he no longer works there).  He was responsible for class balancing, well he sucked at it.  Many believe he was biased as he was a orignally just a player of the game that eventually got hired on and promoted. And thus beefed up his home realm (albion) and nerfed the ever living crap out of his most hated realm (midgard).

     

    If you look at the most recent patches to DAoC they are actually doing a fairly good job of bringing much more balance across the realms, and making ToA not so much a pain in the arse. Heck you can actually buy al lthe ToA goodies t hru RvR participation. (you get bounty points in RvR and you can use those ot by ML credit and artifacts).

    Mythic is very good about listening to their players, and fairly good about weeding out the bullcrap.  if ToA had not been a paid expansion, i bet they would have pulled it out. Instead they did the next best thing. created a server set that didn't have it.

  • elvenangelelvenangel Member Posts: 2,205

     

    Originally posted by alyndale


    btw there's nothing wrong with nerfs / balancing if its Necessary.  Some balancing issues get left out over the need to fix actual bug before an MMO goes live and others just were never found or reported until people actually reach the areas where things became unbalanced.   Part of the MMO nature is the constant changes, just some companies are better than others at balancing.  Hopefully Mythics rock paper scissors model for classes will keep balancing patches to a minimum after launch.
    _________________________________________
    Yes, to some extent this may be true.  But, consider this.  Why would you need to nerf any class if the alpha and open betas are patched and upgraded before release.
    Classes should not have to be redesigned or tampered with after release.  maybe new skills added for upgrading of a game, but not nerfing.
    This is simply a problem encountered by every MMO this has ever been designed and it needs to be resolved with these new games coming out, Warhammer being one.
    Thank you for your timely post btw :)

     

     

    You simply can't compare what a few thousand in a beta test might do or be able to do compared to several hundred thousand.  What might not of seemed that over powered when it was first created & tested because it seemed like it needed to be this strong or this weak in order to balance for a small fraction of players possibly testing it could be taken or used a whole nother way when released amongst the.   You can't treat MMO's like a regular game there just isn't enough time in the world to make a game perfect from launch.  

    The moment a game goes gold that means disks are being printed even though there's still bugging, patching, and issues to be addressed (it simply means the current version either has no choice but to come out or its reached a point where its safe to release).   Thats why you'll always see patches with balancing.  Some stuff just doesn't make the cut off date for release day much less cut off days for when disks start getting printed.  Everything you implement has to go through QA & regular testing before its ever patched or put on disk to make sure it atleast doesn't crash. 

    Most dev's already work 60 to 80 hours a week & its still not enough time its not like they just go "I think I'll code it this way" there's alot of thought & design to it even if some people are pure hacks *coughs vanguard*.    I'll admit some games just suck with balancing & that really comes down to their design team.  If you have a shit design team your going to be constantly balancing.  If you have a good design team your balancing will still exist but it won't be so prevailant it completely changes gameplay.

    I'm not saying Mythic has the perfect team but their team has changed & grown and evolved drastically since its hey days.  Considering how much they've evolved as developers over the years I think there's a good chance they've truely learned from their mistakes. 

    Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!

  • Honeymoon69Honeymoon69 Member Posts: 647

    Mythic balance based on realm vs realm so some classes will be alot stronger than the others.  Expect some op realm abilities and more op classes from expansion just to keep ppl playing.

  • GeeWhisGeeWhis Member Posts: 15

    I always smile when I read about balancing.

    I believe that the balancing issues come about due to the creativity of the players.  Players try all different kinds of combos based on a lot of thought and some probably from just trying out different things.

    This is what draws a lot of players into a game - to see what they can come up with. The problem is then you have the copycats and everyone trying out a made out template which ends up in a balance issue.

    It is the nature of the game that someone is always going to find a powerhouse since they worked so hard at it and others are going to copy what works.

  • SorninSornin Member Posts: 1,133

    I tend to give the developer the benefit of the doubt when it comes to balancing, as I understand how difficult it can be.

    Some people act as though there is some magical equation that can be used to instantly balance the game, but it is not that simple. And it is even harder for MMORPGs that try to have unique, varied classes. The more skills and roles, the harder balance is to achieve. Some Asian grinders seem well-balanced, but often it is because there are like, four classes: warrior, rogue, cleric, and wizard. With variety like that, things better be good!

    In a MMORPG like WAR, there are 24 careers and lots of varied play mechanics, and then tactics, morale abilities, and career masteries on top. This is all to make the game more fun, but it also makes it tougher to balance. With thousands of different combinations of things, and hundreds of thousands of players looking for an advantage, chances are that there will always be something unbalanced. WoW after all these years still has minor to major class changes every large patch because it is still not right there, and never will be (no game ever is).

    So, I live with a bit of unbalance. I always hope things will be as fair as possible, but it is never perfect. Besides, if things were perfectly balanced there would be nothing to moan about, and that is half the fun of forums.

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