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Turbine going in the right way for PVMP
Gamer_17
Member Posts: 202
they have recently announced that there is going to be a new dungeon The Delves of For in the ettenmoors in which you can only enter if your side controls 3 out of 5 locations in the ettenmoores. In this dungeon both player monsters and players can get new items and skills.
I really think turbine is going in the right direction with PVMP where making it you must control at least 3 locations since this is one of my annoyances with PVMP feeling like there is no use in doing it. Another thing is that MP are aloud to get items and skills now does any one think this could lead to them eventually making players aloud to create MP avatars level 1 through 50? wondering if people think this will ever happen?
Comments
I think it might happen. At first, I was strictly against PvP in LotrO. With PVMP, I was skeptical but in the end it won me over. I agree with you about the whole point of it, though. Now, with the new dungeon, it does add incentive.
I found myself missing PvP, even though I am not really a PvPer when playing LotRo, and even felt an urge to play WoW again for that thrill of instanced and open world PvP. I think Turbine is doing a good job with LotRo overall. I am looking forward to this addition as well as more improvement in the future.
Like most PVP, PVMP is a mindless clickfest most of the time, and usually won by superior numbers. Its fun for a few days, but after then I get SO tired of "RUN-DIE-RUN-DIE" rince repeat with almost zero strategy. Its just tossing bodies against the enemy trying to overwhelm the other side by numbers - as is alas most PVP. I still have to see ANY PVP thats really strategic in MMOs. (Ok, Pirates of the Burning Sea has it, but I dont like to spent all time as ship on an ocean...)
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I think they are leaning more and more towards making MP a viable alternative in the game. Now that they are finally realizing that PvP is cheap and easy end game content. If you noticed they have been very slowly and gradually making it that way. Not to mention, the players have been begging for real evil character development since before Turbine even had rights to the game. Why they ever got it in their head not to have a fully playable evil faction in one of the greatest good vs evil fantasies of all time is beyond me. (and yes I heard all the excuses from Turbine already but none ever made sense to me)
I agree. It would be a cool addition, maybe the seperate servers with only Freeps and Freeps and Creeps on extra servers, to let the loremongers have their way too.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
because open world pvp would be lore breaking. If they allowed evil raaces this game will lose a lot of people.
What is inherently lore breaking about world pvp?
____________________________________________
im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
What is inherently lore breaking about world pvp?
World PvP is possible, with some severe limits (e. g. no Orcs plundering the Shire or the Breeland).I do not really enjoy PvP and play PvE almost exclusively, but I would also like to see (and play) evil races right away from level 1 in an PvE context (maybe with PvP allowed in certain zones). Maybe this will come in a future expansion.
Sounds like a decent idea. My only concern with dungeons being part of this mechanic would be if it had items that are especially desired for PvE.
This is trickier than it sounds because no Dev is smart enough to cover all itemization bases.
What is inherently lore breaking about world pvp?
World PvP is possible, with some severe limits (e. g. no Orcs plundering the Shire or the Breeland).I do not really enjoy PvP and play PvE almost exclusively, but I would also like to see (and play) evil races right away from level 1 in an PvE context (maybe with PvP allowed in certain zones). Maybe this will come in a future expansion.
Part of the reason they didn't put in an evil side is the same reason SWG didn't allow players to be stormtroopers. They were mindless drones.The evil side in LoTRo (Mordor) is completely controlled by the will of Sauron. A player of the evil side would get no decision on what they want to do. They would always be a mindless minion in the war-machine of Sauron, just like a stormtrooper in SWG.
Remember, LoTRo is licensed and modeled after the books not the movies.
I predict a playable evil faction by the time they launch in Asia.
The best thing they can do is to make the penalty for PVMP severe.I agree a playable pve moster side would be against lore.
I wish though that the monsters would have somewhere else to go to get their own equipment and actually places for them to get money. So that they can lose it when the run into a freep.
But what i mean is i think the pvp penalty should be increased.
For the reason that they can't have world PVP, There were no orcs running around eriador willy nilly killing everything in sight. The free races weren't at war with each other and didn't kill each other to feel uber and self important.
The lore doesn't support a evil race like it supports the free races. Reason is that it is written from the free people side of the story. We get small glimpses of the evil side but no great detail. We dont know how the evil race lived other than in slavery to sauron. Or what their daily lives were like. During all of the time sauron was in hiding recuoping from his loss at the end of the second age. Guess what the orcs were doing? Hiding in holes in the mountains like rats. They never mounted a large scale war against the free people.
Yes i know about the battle of the five armies. It took the death of the great goblin to get them worked up in such a frenzy to go forth to avenge him. A very rare thing in the lore.
Ad to the fact that in order to play an orc you would have to live with a debuff in the day time or only play at night. So with the way the game is now every other hour an a half you will get to play for an hour an a half. something like that.
Yes i know this makes no sense to you who want evil playable characters but you know what these are the facts of playing an orc in LOTRO. As far as easterlings go as playable evil races. Just recently the devs said they have no plans to add easterlings to the game at this time.
I am glad they are expanding on MP for those who enjoy it. I believe though that the only way you will be able to lvl up your MP is when the lvl cap is raised. I don't see them auto lvling every creep to 60 when this happens.
The dungeon-in-the-zone sounds like a good idea. But it's the kind of thing that would require other things to exist to make it work. Particularly, playable evil-races. Without real playable evil characters, why wouldn't a server just be everyone playing the good side, looting this pvmp zone dungeon to death, essentially removing all the cross-faction fighting? So if they do this, without playable evil-races, then it will turn into being just another pve-type dungeon.
If they are going to do some pvp, they need to just go all the way and let there be two different factions that fight for stuff, both sides having the same motivation and abilities... but that's MEO isn't it? What they chose against a long time ago? And adding playable evil-race would be like doubling the entire content of the game wouldn't it? And they are lore-bound of course, and have to back off from the hard-line conformance to the story... for why would anyone play an evil character if their hard-coded destiny is to loose?
So I can't imagine how they can add playable evil-races at this point in time, which makes this sound like some more poorly thought-out design by Turbine.
So in a round about way they already have a evil faction in the game. It just is not the tradtional incarnation of what we have come to expect evil factions to be. The dungeon in the moors will never be a PVE style dungeon. Cause when one side looses control of the moors they can't enter the dungeon. and if their are freeps in the dungeon at the tome the creeps take over the moors and the dungeon access. Creeps can then go in and kill the freeps in the dungeon.
Only way the freeps will get back into the dungeon is to take the moors control back. and you have to fight the creeps for control and vice versa for the creeps. So it is an incentive to control the moors. and there are alot of people who play nothing but one side or the other.
Actually there is two factions in MP. The monster side (creeps) and the free people side (freeps). No the monster side isn't playable like the free people side is only in that you don't lvl a monster up from 1-50. You start out at lvl 50 with lvl 1 skills and traits. You have to then lvl up said skills and traits. It is like how darkfall will be if it ever makes it to launch. well not exactly like it but kind of.So in a round about way they already have a evil faction in the game. It just is not the tradtional incarnation of what we have come to expect evil factions to be. The dungeon in the moors will never be a PVE style dungeon. Cause when one side looses control of the moors they can't enter the dungeon. and if their are freeps in the dungeon at the tome the creeps take over the moors and the dungeon access. Creeps can then go in and kill the freeps in the dungeon.
Only way the freeps will get back into the dungeon is to take the moors control back. and you have to fight the creeps for control and vice versa for the creeps. So it is an incentive to control the moors. and there are alot of people who play nothing but one side or the other.
hehe... thanks for the gameplay lesson (I played since CB). And you stated how the new pvmp dungeons will work very clearly, (everyone should read carefully).
SO using your terminology, I am saying that to have a meaningful pvmp dungeon, accessible only by the controlling faction, REQUIRES that there ALSO be playable evil races, in the sense that they play an evil toon and level them from 1-50, have orc housing, troll weapons, the 'sounds of mordor' bands, etc. AND that is just what Turbine will never do. (Actually, they can't, because of the other reasons I've already given).
What are the motives now?
- the good side: "control the pvmp areas, so we can enter that dungeon and get good stuff, which we can use throughout the game world, helping us kill nazgul, dragons, etc."
- the bad side: "control the pvmp areas to keep the good side out?"
All the while, every server is made of people playing both side toons (good and evil) on the same server?
So in a round about way they already have a evil faction in the game. It just is not the tradtional incarnation of what we have come to expect evil factions to be. The dungeon in the moors will never be a PVE style dungeon. Cause when one side looses control of the moors they can't enter the dungeon. and if their are freeps in the dungeon at the tome the creeps take over the moors and the dungeon access. Creeps can then go in and kill the freeps in the dungeon.
Only way the freeps will get back into the dungeon is to take the moors control back. and you have to fight the creeps for control and vice versa for the creeps. So it is an incentive to control the moors. and there are alot of people who play nothing but one side or the other.
hehe... thanks for the gameplay lesson (I played since CB). And you stated how the new pvmp dungeons will work very clearly, (everyone should read carefully).
SO using your terminology, I am saying that to have a meaningful pvmp dungeon, accessible only by the controlling faction, REQUIRES that there ALSO be playable evil races, in the sense that they play an evil toon and level them from 1-50, have orc housing, troll weapons, the 'sounds of mordor' bands, etc. AND that is just what Turbine will never do. (Actually, they can't, because of the other reasons I've already given).
What are the motives now?
- the good side: "control the pvmp areas, so we can enter that dungeon and get good stuff, which we can use throughout the game world, helping us kill nazgul, dragons, etc."
- the bad side: "control the pvmp areas to keep the good side out?"
All the while, every server is made of people playing both side toons (good and evil) on the same server?
I disagree that the evil side needs to be playable like the good side. Why does it have to be that they have to be lvld up like the good side? if you ask me the evil side has it easy in that they don't have to lvl up from 1 to 50. Just do quests and rank up to get higher skills and traits. No grinding mobs to finish traits. If they gave me a choice i would rather see the game be the same way for the free side. Were we lvl up our skills and traits and didn't do the lvl grind thing.Also the evil side will want to control the PvMP dungeon to have access to the traits and equipment that they can only access thru controlling the dungeon. So they have more reason to control it than keeping the good side out.
MP is still in it's infancy, it has alot of growing to do. I see alot more MP areas added to the game and i also see were they will have to let the monsters lvl from 50 to 60 like the good side. Cause i do not see them auto lvling every freep to 60 when the lvl cap is increased. They gave the creeps tribes, the same as kinships for freeps. They will expand on it and develope it.
This game does not need a traditional playable evil faction. They have a evil faction that is playable in a differant way. Not what we are used too but still playable.There was a time when monster play was to be a non persistent for of play. Were each time you partook in MP you would have to make a new monster. That has changed. It only lacks the lvl grind. And having PvE content. But why should it have PvE content when it is the game for no other reason than PvP.
Also not everyone plays both sides. Grant it there are alot of people who do but there are alot who don't. Some don't even play MP. While others play nothing but MP.
Actually the evil side gains access to new abilities and trait slots by holding the dungeon. The only way they can get that stuff is by taking down raid bosses inside the dungeon. Sounds pretty fun to me.
Monster Play isn't for everyone, but I personally think that filling out a monster's traits is at least as fun as grinding out your last few traits on a 50 freep. Hell, it's a crapload more fun that some of those virtue grinds (only 400 more snowbeasts and I can get another 3 agility from determination....**shudder**).
I actually like it that there is a faction where I can roll a completely new toon, with a new set of abilities that I've never gotton to play around with, and jump straight into the end game. I really don't think adding a 1-50 grind for creeps would add that much to it.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Our job is to tell Turbine what we want as subscribers or potential subscribers.Turbines job is to decide if they want to do it or not and how.....then live with the consequences of their action or non actions.
It seems clear to me that Turbine saw that housing was desired and added it. They recognize pvp was a weak at best element in their game.They are moving to enhance this aspect to atract/retain subscribers.
My POV....more faction pvp will help Turbine attract players who insist on pvp of one for or another.I applaud Turbines direction...and say to them MORE PVP sooner rather than later(nothing is more fun than to play a game against another thinking person and their unpredictability).Turbines job is to figure out how to do it ..or not do it. If they want to push on that direction then their creativity and management leadership should be able to find a way.
Turbine doesn't need to change the basics of PVP (i.e. pvmp). They just need to continue to work on balance and expand the pvmp experience. The Delving of Fror is a step in the right direction, and I'm certain that there will be more good stuff coming (*cough* moria *cough*).
To the guy that said creeps need to be able to level in order for them to have motivation for taking keeps and going to Fror... you don't know what you are talking about. First off, creeps don't need any motivation to kill the freeps. We (since I play a reaver) will do it for free
And infamy is an extra incentive. Beyond that there are rewards for creeps if they defeat bosses in Fror. You get tokens you can turn in for insanely good consumables. Creeps won't have the same type of motivation to go to fror as the freeps. I'm not going to log onto my creep because I want to go to fror. But during the down times when the pvp is slow, creeps will have something better to do than farm destiny points. And then when the freeps come out to play, the creeps will be playing the spoiler role in the delving. So it's win/win for everyone.
~~~ Currently Playing ~~~
LOTRO- Guardian Wrymstrum & Lore-master Stabler on Nimrodel.
Conan- Zoltar <Angels of Death> Guardian on Stormrage.
What is inherently lore breaking about world pvp?
World PvP is possible, with some severe limits (e. g. no Orcs plundering the Shire or the Breeland).I do not really enjoy PvP and play PvE almost exclusively, but I would also like to see (and play) evil races right away from level 1 in an PvE context (maybe with PvP allowed in certain zones). Maybe this will come in a future expansion.
Part of the reason they didn't put in an evil side is the same reason SWG didn't allow players to be stormtroopers. They were mindless drones.The evil side in LoTRo (Mordor) is completely controlled by the will of Sauron. A player of the evil side would get no decision on what they want to do. They would always be a mindless minion in the war-machine of Sauron, just like a stormtrooper in SWG.
Remember, LoTRo is licensed and modeled after the books not the movies.
That's not really an accurate portrayal of Orcs in the Lore. Every bit of dialog between Orcs in the books contradicts this. They were controlled by FEAR, but they were not portrayed as mindless. If they were mindless servants, why would Grishnak disobey orders and try to kill the captive hobbits? Why would the Orcs at the tower in Cirith Ungol fight over a shiny shirt? Who told the orcs what to do when Sauron was gone?
And Orcs weren't the only bad guys in the books: There were evil men, Hillmen, etc., and even LoTRO has tons of brigands etc. Is there any reason why players can't be one of them?
The reason is simple: Turbine didn't want to go to the effort of figuring out a good way of integrating PVP into the world. They use a misinterpretation of the lore as an excuse.
____________________________________________
im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
I don't think they said that they didn't put in world pvp because orcs' existence out there doing whatever they wanted would break the lore. I think it was more an issue of player's behaviour possibly breaking the lore. For example say a bunch of players made an orc conga line through the shire. That's they type of thing they wanted to avoid.
Frankly I think their approach has been smart. Why copy what more pvp focused games are doing? Then all you have is a crappy version of WOW pvp. They are doing something different, and I think that's good.
~~~ Currently Playing ~~~
LOTRO- Guardian Wrymstrum & Lore-master Stabler on Nimrodel.
Conan- Zoltar <Angels of Death> Guardian on Stormrage.
What is inherently lore breaking about world pvp?
World PvP is possible, with some severe limits (e. g. no Orcs plundering the Shire or the Breeland).I do not really enjoy PvP and play PvE almost exclusively, but I would also like to see (and play) evil races right away from level 1 in an PvE context (maybe with PvP allowed in certain zones). Maybe this will come in a future expansion.
Part of the reason they didn't put in an evil side is the same reason SWG didn't allow players to be stormtroopers. They were mindless drones.The evil side in LoTRo (Mordor) is completely controlled by the will of Sauron. A player of the evil side would get no decision on what they want to do. They would always be a mindless minion in the war-machine of Sauron, just like a stormtrooper in SWG.
Remember, LoTRo is licensed and modeled after the books not the movies.
That's not really an accurate portrayal of Orcs in the Lore. Every bit of dialog between Orcs in the books contradicts this. They were controlled by FEAR, but they were not portrayed as mindless. If they were mindless servants, why would Grishnak disobey orders and try to kill the captive hobbits? Why would the Orcs at the tower in Cirith Ungol fight over a shiny shirt? Who told the orcs what to do when Sauron was gone?
And Orcs weren't the only bad guys in the books: There were evil men, Hillmen, etc., and even LoTRO has tons of brigands etc. Is there any reason why players can't be one of them?
The reason is simple: Turbine didn't want to go to the effort of figuring out a good way of integrating PVP into the world. They use a misinterpretation of the lore as an excuse.
What you say is partially true. It says in the books that saurons control over his minions was so complete that they had basically no will of their owne. Now in order for his orders to be carried out he would have to allow some free will to those he put in charge to command the mindless mob he called an army. So in a way yes orcs were mindless, those who were in charge of them to a lesser degree were mindless. in that they followed out his orders and made sure thru fear that they were carried out.Having some form of will they were able to make decisions outside of his plans. Now his will couldn't be bent upon his minions always, that is were the nazgul came into play. They would walk amongst the army, command it, deal out death to those who disobeyed, wich were usually those given some free will.
In your example above those are two who were given some free will so they can command. And they were talking about after the war was over. Presuming they would win. They are rare and very few. So the vast majority of orcs were mindless under saurons control.
Now the evil men you speak of. They willingly went into saurons service. They gave up their free will to him to serve him. Do you honestly think sauron would have a army of evil men that he didn't control. In the battle at the black gate the evil men attacked cause they were ordered to. When sauron was defeated many of them threw down their weapons and sued for mercy. Cause their free will was restored and they saw they had lost. Now there were those who fought on anyway. Those to me were the ones who would of fought no matter what.
It is not that turbine is incapable of makeing a tradtional PvP system. Look at asheron's call. It is that tradtional PvP doesn't fit this IP. In order for there to be evil men or orcs rampaging around in eridor or any part of middle earth not following orders sauron would have to win the war first. He was calling all evil to himself. Even gollum couldn't resist his call. He was building up his forces to strike minas tirith. You don't let your army run around willy nilly when your building up.
What is inherently lore breaking about world pvp?
World PvP is possible, with some severe limits (e. g. no Orcs plundering the Shire or the Breeland).I do not really enjoy PvP and play PvE almost exclusively, but I would also like to see (and play) evil races right away from level 1 in an PvE context (maybe with PvP allowed in certain zones). Maybe this will come in a future expansion.
Part of the reason they didn't put in an evil side is the same reason SWG didn't allow players to be stormtroopers. They were mindless drones.The evil side in LoTRo (Mordor) is completely controlled by the will of Sauron. A player of the evil side would get no decision on what they want to do. They would always be a mindless minion in the war-machine of Sauron, just like a stormtrooper in SWG.
Remember, LoTRo is licensed and modeled after the books not the movies.
That's not really an accurate portrayal of Orcs in the Lore. Every bit of dialog between Orcs in the books contradicts this. They were controlled by FEAR, but they were not portrayed as mindless. If they were mindless servants, why would Grishnak disobey orders and try to kill the captive hobbits? Why would the Orcs at the tower in Cirith Ungol fight over a shiny shirt? Who told the orcs what to do when Sauron was gone?
And Orcs weren't the only bad guys in the books: There were evil men, Hillmen, etc., and even LoTRO has tons of brigands etc. Is there any reason why players can't be one of them?
The reason is simple: Turbine didn't want to go to the effort of figuring out a good way of integrating PVP into the world. They use a misinterpretation of the lore as an excuse.
What you say is partially true. It says in the books that saurons control over his minions was so complete that they had basically no will of their owne. Now in order for his orders to be carried out he would have to allow some free will to those he put in charge to command the mindless mob he called an army. So in a way yes orcs were mindless, those who were in charge of them to a lesser degree were mindless. in that they followed out his orders and made sure thru fear that they were carried out.Having some form of will they were able to make decisions outside of his plans. Now his will couldn't be bent upon his minions always, that is were the nazgul came into play. They would walk amongst the army, command it, deal out death to those who disobeyed, wich were usually those given some free will.
In your example above those are two who were given some free will so they can command. And they were talking about after the war was over. Presuming they would win. They are rare and very few. So the vast majority of orcs were mindless under saurons control.
Now the evil men you speak of. They willingly went into saurons service. They gave up their free will to him to serve him. Do you honestly think sauron would have a army of evil men that he didn't control. In the battle at the black gate the evil men attacked cause they were ordered to. When sauron was defeated many of them threw down their weapons and sued for mercy. Cause their free will was restored and they saw they had lost. Now there were those who fought on anyway. Those to me were the ones who would of fought no matter what.
It is not that turbine is incapable of makeing a tradtional PvP system. Look at asheron's call. It is that tradtional PvP doesn't fit this IP. In order for there to be evil men or orcs rampaging around in eridor or any part of middle earth not following orders sauron would have to win the war first. He was calling all evil to himself. Even gollum couldn't resist his call. He was building up his forces to strike minas tirith. You don't let your army run around willy nilly when your building up.
Not fair. I quoted the books to prove my point. Where's your quote that says that the Orcs had "no will of their own?" Perhaps the characters I quoted were exceptional, but then again, so are the characters we act out as players -- most free peoples are just farmers, merchants and peasants. They have little more free will than that dictated to them by their Lord.
As for the evil men, where does it say that all evil men were directly in the service of Sauron? Perhaps many were, but there could have been plenty of others that were just plain evil. The fact that they serve Sauron out of what they view as their own self interest doesn't mean they lack free will.
There are plenty of evil men, Dourhand dwarves, and Orcs wandering around in Eriador, even in Breeland. It's just that right now, they are all NPCs. No reason, lore-wise, that they could not be player characters.
____________________________________________
im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
What is inherently lore breaking about world pvp?
World PvP is possible, with some severe limits (e. g. no Orcs plundering the Shire or the Breeland).I do not really enjoy PvP and play PvE almost exclusively, but I would also like to see (and play) evil races right away from level 1 in an PvE context (maybe with PvP allowed in certain zones). Maybe this will come in a future expansion.
Part of the reason they didn't put in an evil side is the same reason SWG didn't allow players to be stormtroopers. They were mindless drones.The evil side in LoTRo (Mordor) is completely controlled by the will of Sauron. A player of the evil side would get no decision on what they want to do. They would always be a mindless minion in the war-machine of Sauron, just like a stormtrooper in SWG.
Remember, LoTRo is licensed and modeled after the books not the movies.
That's not really an accurate portrayal of Orcs in the Lore. Every bit of dialog between Orcs in the books contradicts this. They were controlled by FEAR, but they were not portrayed as mindless. If they were mindless servants, why would Grishnak disobey orders and try to kill the captive hobbits? Why would the Orcs at the tower in Cirith Ungol fight over a shiny shirt? Who told the orcs what to do when Sauron was gone?
And Orcs weren't the only bad guys in the books: There were evil men, Hillmen, etc., and even LoTRO has tons of brigands etc. Is there any reason why players can't be one of them?
The reason is simple: Turbine didn't want to go to the effort of figuring out a good way of integrating PVP into the world. They use a misinterpretation of the lore as an excuse.
What you say is partially true. It says in the books that saurons control over his minions was so complete that they had basically no will of their owne. Now in order for his orders to be carried out he would have to allow some free will to those he put in charge to command the mindless mob he called an army. So in a way yes orcs were mindless, those who were in charge of them to a lesser degree were mindless. in that they followed out his orders and made sure thru fear that they were carried out.Having some form of will they were able to make decisions outside of his plans. Now his will couldn't be bent upon his minions always, that is were the nazgul came into play. They would walk amongst the army, command it, deal out death to those who disobeyed, wich were usually those given some free will.
In your example above those are two who were given some free will so they can command. And they were talking about after the war was over. Presuming they would win. They are rare and very few. So the vast majority of orcs were mindless under saurons control.
Now the evil men you speak of. They willingly went into saurons service. They gave up their free will to him to serve him. Do you honestly think sauron would have a army of evil men that he didn't control. In the battle at the black gate the evil men attacked cause they were ordered to. When sauron was defeated many of them threw down their weapons and sued for mercy. Cause their free will was restored and they saw they had lost. Now there were those who fought on anyway. Those to me were the ones who would of fought no matter what.
It is not that turbine is incapable of makeing a tradtional PvP system. Look at asheron's call. It is that tradtional PvP doesn't fit this IP. In order for there to be evil men or orcs rampaging around in eridor or any part of middle earth not following orders sauron would have to win the war first. He was calling all evil to himself. Even gollum couldn't resist his call. He was building up his forces to strike minas tirith. You don't let your army run around willy nilly when your building up.
Not fair. I quoted the books to prove my point. Where's your quote that says that the Orcs had "no will of their own?" Perhaps the characters I quoted were exceptional, but then again, so are the characters we act out as players -- most free peoples are just farmers, merchants and peasants. They have little more free will than that dictated to them by their Lord.
As for the evil men, where does it say that all evil men were directly in the service of Sauron? Perhaps many were, but there could have been plenty of others that were just plain evil. The fact that they serve Sauron out of what they view as their own self interest doesn't mean they lack free will.
There are plenty of evil men, Dourhand dwarves, and Orcs wandering around in Eriador, even in Breeland. It's just that right now, they are all NPCs. No reason, lore-wise, that they could not be player characters.
We could go back on forth with this for many pages. In the end, we will be back where we started. What have the devs said about playable evil races? What have the devs said about the future of playable evil races?Here are some Dev chat quotes:
lotro.warcry.com/news/view/67476-Unofficial-Official-Dev-Chat-Log
*carl* Any chance we could see playable evil races after the game goes live?
DangerDan: Carl, that's what Monster Play's all about... having a chance to be the bad guy. We've got players in our Beta right now who are roaming the Ettenmoors region as Orcs, Uruk, Wargs... even Spiders.
Orion: If you were asking whether these savage beast will find their way into the more highly populated areas of Eriador, the answer is no at this time. For the moment, you have the Ettenmoors as your stomping ground and it's a fearsome area.
LOTRO_Patience: From what I'm seeing on the forums, Wargs are a favorite choice for monster play
forums.lotro.com/showthread.php
There were a lot of other topics touched on during this discussion and the future possibility of players participating in PvP conflict as part of the War of the Ring was one of them. Allan "Orion" Maki mentioned that this is part of a long term plan and will have the players participating in the war as both Free-peoples and Monsters. This could be some new form of play or perhaps an evolution of the Ettens. It was mentioned during the discussion by Allan "Orion" Maki that in the future we may be able to choose the dark forces as playable characters, so this could go anywhere.
There may be a time and place for playable races in the future of LoTRo... but we are not there yet.