They do not tell you in what way fatigue is deadly. I will - if a person suffering fatigue is in a position that endangers his/her life then it is possible that they may die. For example: Some one falls asleep while driving a car. Not someone sitting down at a keyboard.
Pardon me as I do not bow to your obviously vast wisdom, but I'd prefer to have a professional on the subject tell us seeing as you have yet to cite any sources to back up your expounding.
Stanley Coren, from his book Sleep Thieves, chapter 15, page 170:
"To see the link between the immune system and sleep a little better, let's go back to a mystery that we left unsolved earlier. You probably recall that I described a series of studies by Dr. Allan Rechtschaffen in which rats were prevented from sleeping and began to lose weight after a few weeks of this treatment. Next, they lost their ability to regulate their body temperature; they then simply died. When Rechtschaffen's research team looked for the reasons for these deaths, they could find nothing obviously wrong in the organs, blood, or urine of these rats. What had killed them?
A possible answer to this mystery was provided by Dr. Carol Everson, a senior staff fellow at the National Institute of Mental Health at Bethesda, Maryland. Everson had been a student of Rechtschaffen's and noticed that the rats that died of the sleep deprivation looked very much like cancer patients whose bodies had been weakened either by chemotherapy or some form of wasting away caused by the disease itself. When cancer patients enter the final stages of the disease, they are often hit with many secondary infections simply because their overtaxed immune system is now failing and they can no longer fight off the potential invaders. Thus, it is not unusual for the final cause of death in a cancer patient to be some infection rather than the cancer itself. This led Everson to the hypothesis that perhaps the sleep-deprived rats were actually infected with something. When Everson did a new series of tests, she found that the sleep-deprived rats had died from bacterial infections of the blood. Perhaps the most interesting part of these findings is that the fatal bacteria were strains that rats come into contact with every day. These common microbes usually do not cause disease because the immune systems usually is quite aggressive in cleaning up and eliminating them when they assault the body. What seems to have happened in the sleep-deprived rats is a complete crashing of their immune system. Because their resistance was down, their body became prey to infectious microorganisms that normally don't stand a chance of passing its defenses."
And so ironically, a person could die sitting there in their office chair. After all, if they aren't stopping to sleep, do you honestly think they're going to stop and shower to get rid of all those nasty bacteria? Or take the time to bleach their keyboard? I don't.
I'll approach the rest of your post later. At the moment I, ironically, need some sleep.
~ A Girl Disappearing
1) How were the rats prevented from sleeping?
2) did you skip the words "possible answer"?
3) Did you skip the words "seems to of happened"?
4) When I say "hypothisis" what comes to mind?
5) I would at this time point out that it took weeks for the rats to lose wieght. So, how long did it take for them to die?
6) You point to a book on sleeping disorders, where the author basically states, "buy my book because your very life may be in peril!" We can't blame him for trying. I am sure he only wants to help us at $19.95.
Here is what I am saying:
A person can't die from fatigue - they will get tired and fall asleep
A video game is not to blame for anything in a persons life.
This is getting further and further off topic, but well lets give it a go.
Yes people can die of fatigue, there are too many documented cases. From the Greek runner (who inspired marathon) who died after delivering a message, to the overexerted gamer who died during gaming. Yes there are many documented medical case throughout history and over many countries in the past years lately, that exhaustion can lead to instant death, from heart attack to failed internal organs.
A video game is to be blamed for a lot of medical problems, from eye, to hardened shoulders, to damaged tissues (notably fingles and ankles, and sometimes biceps) to body weight, disgestion disorders, sleep problems, you name it. Psychologically, there are even deeper impact than commonly documented, including total distortion in point of views. There are documented cases in which counter-strike guilds meet each other in RL to actually fight it out. The last one I read takes place in Russia.
Conclusion: Government doing something about it is better than doing nothing at all even if the solution is not the most optimal solution to the problem at hand. It's a good thing if governments care enough to find a solution before the problem reaches epidemic proportions.
I am slightly hesitant about relying too much on gov't. Generally gov't are run by people and people have their own private agenda. If all gov'ts are totally free from corruption, we have heaven on earth :-).
Yeah some initiatives from officials are sometimes nice, and I think the Chinese crackdown on illegal and potentially dangerous internet cafes and fully understandable. But pushing that crackdown too far might be counterproductive. Lets hope the line is drawn somewhere in the middle of the two extremems. We will have to wait and see.
No, apparently there are just some really stupid people who should have never been allowed to have children. That's not gamings' fault, it's stupidity. Actually those parents are irresponsible, not stupid.
If I had my way, everyone would need a friggen license to have children. The amount of morons, like the ones you cited in your post, kept from breeding would solve population and hunger problems the world over. It is your extremist attitude that makes it hard to maintain a line of discussion with you in peaceful terms. Another extremist can easily say that if he has his way, you will need a license to speak.
Those people being discussed are irresponsible, that does not necessarily mean they are morons, maybe they are very bright but selfish people. Stopping them from breeding would solve population and hunger problems all over the world? Really? Can you substantiate how that can happen?
No, apparently there are just some really stupid people who should have never been allowed to have children. That's not gamings' fault, it's stupidity. Actually those parents are irresponsible, not stupid.
If I had my way, everyone would need a friggen license to have children. The amount of morons, like the ones you cited in your post, kept from breeding would solve population and hunger problems the world over. It is your extremist attitude that makes it hard to maintain a line of discussion with you in peaceful terms. Another extremist can easily say that if he has his way, you will need a license to speak.
Those people being discussed are irresponsible, that does not necessarily mean they are morons, maybe they are very bright but selfish people. Stopping them from breeding would solve population and hunger problems all over the world? Really? Can you substantiate how that can happen?
Being late for work is irresponsible. Not taking care of your children so you can play a game, or any other non-essential activity for that matter, is stupidity.
This is no different then what is already done in US cities in regards to arcades. There are many US cities that prohibit and ban any place of business with arcade games from operating during school hours as well as prohibit minors from attending them.
So why you folks are having a knee jerk reaction attached with a false sense outrage over this news piece is beyond me. If a kid is at arcade or internet cafe and he/she playing a game then the cops should grab his/her butt and march him/her back to school ASAP and contact his/her parents. There is nothing wrong with this at all and in fact it has been done many a time with juvenile delinquents in the US.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
No, apparently there are just some really stupid people who should have never been allowed to have children. That's not gamings' fault, it's stupidity. Actually those parents are irresponsible, not stupid.
If I had my way, everyone would need a friggen license to have children. The amount of morons, like the ones you cited in your post, kept from breeding would solve population and hunger problems the world over. It is your extremist attitude that makes it hard to maintain a line of discussion with you in peaceful terms. Another extremist can easily say that if he has his way, you will need a license to speak.
Those people being discussed are irresponsible, that does not necessarily mean they are morons, maybe they are very bright but selfish people. Stopping them from breeding would solve population and hunger problems all over the world? Really? Can you substantiate how that can happen?
Being late for work is irresponsible. Not taking care of your children so you can play a game, or any other non-essential activity for that matter, is stupidity.
That is your definition, no one can argue with you. But as a reference, we can look into the sentence of a judge in a recent court case in HK about a couple who left their kids locked up at home, and go gambling for days. The judge did not call the couple stupid, he criticised them as totally irresponsible, and send them to jail.
At the end of the day, we are arguing what constitutes stupidity. There is no end to this argument. Oh well far fetched and totally irrelevant to the thread again. Poosh.
I guess we have some unfinished business on fatigue death now?
Honestly, I don't think we do. I never believed we did from the beginning.
Originally posted by Wickersham
Take a week off and stay awake for as long as you can. I bet you'll fall asleep. I bet you won't die. Is there even a chance that you will die? Nope, you will fall asleep - I am sure of it. Somewhere between 20ish hours and maybe 70ish you will pass out. You see you will become what we non-scientific laymen call "tired" this tireness will make you "drowsey" - your little head will nod up and down as you struggle to remain awake but in the end Mr. Sandman will take you away - not Mr. Death. You will be quite alive when you wake from your nap. Is there any doubt of this? Do you have ANY doubt that you like everyone else reading this will not die? Why are you having such a difficult time grasping this very simple concept? You will fall asleep. You are all the evidence I need. If those rats were doing something they really really really really enjoyed, even they, if given the chance, would of fallen asleep - it is natural. The bunnies too. Sleepy time for bunnies . .
It seems you entirely missed the point of my last post. It seems I'm going to be forced to abuse text formatting again.
"Numerous examples of how SLEEP DEBT weakens the body have now begun to emerge from research laboratories. One study showed that if you deprive rats of sleep FOR ONLY 8 HOURS and then challenge the body with a foreign substance, the antibody response is weak. Moreover, the defensive response is still below normal 3 days later. Mice deprived of sleep show decreased immunity to influenza virus infection of the lungs; they also show a reduced ability to reproduce interferon and other vital infection-fighting substances. Recent studies IN HUMANS have also shown that loss of JUST A FEW HOURS OF SLEEP can disrupt the normal pattern of the immune system response."
Does high blood pressure sound dangerous at all? Nah, that's so minor. How about heart attack? Heart failure? Stroke?
When you still have to go to work, go to school, get done what needs to be done to keep your job and home and life, you don't always get the chance to catch up on sleep. One marathon session is not going to kill a person. Most normal people will catch up on their debts and be just fine. The people whom have actually died are not normal. Do you honestly think that the kids that died during these hard core sessions have never done it before that time? The whole point that I have repeatedly made is that this whole situation really only applies to a small portion of the community with addictive personalities/impulse control disorders. Even if they eventually fall asleep, they also eventually wake up. And with caffeine, adrenaline, and endorphins bouncing like mad around your head it gets easier and easier to keep going longer and longer.
It's funny you say that I'm all the evidence you need, because I think the exact same thing of myself. My rhythms have been fracked up repeatedly by studying, project deadlines, and many many recreational activities. I have taken days to knock myself flat on my own ass for 20 hours straight due to feeling so sickly. I have sleep aids in the pill box.
You tell me why my sister and I simultaneously caught Norwalk and while she took naps and sipped soup I had to be driven to a hospital.
I also understand that the I have problems other's don't have. I understand that other's have problems I count myself lucky for not possessing. That's why I have constantly said that the only way this issue is going to be resolved is if it's done on an individualized basis.
I also note that you once more didn't cite any sources.
Originally posted by Orthedos
This is getting further and further off topic, but well lets give it a go. Yes people can die of fatigue, there are too many documented cases. From the Greek runner (who inspired marathon) who died after delivering a message, to the overexerted gamer who died during gaming. Yes there are many documented medical case throughout history and over many countries in the past years lately, that exhaustion can lead to instant death, from heart attack to failed internal organs. A video game is to be blamed for a lot of medical problems, from eye, to hardened shoulders, to damaged tissues (notably fingles and ankles, and sometimes biceps) to body weight, disgestion disorders, sleep problems, you name it. Psychologically, there are even deeper impact than commonly documented, including total distortion in point of views. There are documented cases in which counter-strike guilds meet each other in RL to actually fight it out. The last one I read takes place in Russia.
I only have a few minor tweaks. I don't see it as off topic because (and correct me if I'm wrong), from what I've gathered of the mood of a few people posting here, they see the new laws in China as un-justified because they are arguing that death by fatigue is impossible therefore there are no real deaths to spur the passing of the controversial laws. I have simply tried to state the facts that say otherwise.
I don't see video gaming itself is to be blamed for many of these medical issues. I'll concede that gaming is certainly a popular cause, but not the only one. My wrists have been more damaged by writing then gaming personally. This is not the case for everyone though.
I will say this though. Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Also, that Counter-strike incident has piqued the interest of my sadistic side. If you ever find those articles, I'd most appreciate a forward.
No, apparently there are just some really stupid people who should have never been allowed to have children. That's not gamings' fault, it's stupidity. Actually those parents are irresponsible, not stupid.
If I had my way, everyone would need a friggen license to have children. The amount of morons, like the ones you cited in your post, kept from breeding would solve population and hunger problems the world over. It is your extremist attitude that makes it hard to maintain a line of discussion with you in peaceful terms. Another extremist can easily say that if he has his way, you will need a license to speak.
Those people being discussed are irresponsible, that does not necessarily mean they are morons, maybe they are very bright but selfish people. Stopping them from breeding would solve population and hunger problems all over the world? Really? Can you substantiate how that can happen?
Being late for work is irresponsible. Not taking care of your children so you can play a game, or any other non-essential activity for that matter, is stupidity.
That is your definition, no one can argue with you. But as a reference, we can look into the sentence of a judge in a recent court case in HK about a couple who left their kids locked up at home, and go gambling for days. The judge did not call the couple stupid, he criticised them as totally irresponsible, and send them to jail.
At the end of the day, we are arguing what constitutes stupidity. There is no end to this argument. Oh well far fetched and totally irrelevant to the thread again. Poosh.
Never let it be said that I'm not willing to compromise. Therefore, these "parents" are irresponsibly stupid.
China lost the last Opium war, they will lose this one too. It seems like they hate everything Westerners do, even though our imperialism over them is long gone.
Comments
Pardon me as I do not bow to your obviously vast wisdom, but I'd prefer to have a professional on the subject tell us seeing as you have yet to cite any sources to back up your expounding.
Stanley Coren, from his book Sleep Thieves, chapter 15, page 170:
"To see the link between the immune system and sleep a little better, let's go back to a mystery that we left unsolved earlier. You probably recall that I described a series of studies by Dr. Allan Rechtschaffen in which rats were prevented from sleeping and began to lose weight after a few weeks of this treatment. Next, they lost their ability to regulate their body temperature; they then simply died. When Rechtschaffen's research team looked for the reasons for these deaths, they could find nothing obviously wrong in the organs, blood, or urine of these rats. What had killed them?
A possible answer to this mystery was provided by Dr. Carol Everson, a senior staff fellow at the National Institute of Mental Health at Bethesda, Maryland. Everson had been a student of Rechtschaffen's and noticed that the rats that died of the sleep deprivation looked very much like cancer patients whose bodies had been weakened either by chemotherapy or some form of wasting away caused by the disease itself. When cancer patients enter the final stages of the disease, they are often hit with many secondary infections simply because their overtaxed immune system is now failing and they can no longer fight off the potential invaders. Thus, it is not unusual for the final cause of death in a cancer patient to be some infection rather than the cancer itself. This led Everson to the hypothesis that perhaps the sleep-deprived rats were actually infected with something. When Everson did a new series of tests, she found that the sleep-deprived rats had died from bacterial infections of the blood. Perhaps the most interesting part of these findings is that the fatal bacteria were strains that rats come into contact with every day. These common microbes usually do not cause disease because the immune systems usually is quite aggressive in cleaning up and eliminating them when they assault the body. What seems to have happened in the sleep-deprived rats is a complete crashing of their immune system. Because their resistance was down, their body became prey to infectious microorganisms that normally don't stand a chance of passing its defenses."
And so ironically, a person could die sitting there in their office chair. After all, if they aren't stopping to sleep, do you honestly think they're going to stop and shower to get rid of all those nasty bacteria? Or take the time to bleach their keyboard? I don't.
I'll approach the rest of your post later. At the moment I, ironically, need some sleep.
~ A Girl Disappearing
1) How were the rats prevented from sleeping?
2) did you skip the words "possible answer"?
3) Did you skip the words "seems to of happened"?
4) When I say "hypothisis" what comes to mind?
5) I would at this time point out that it took weeks for the rats to lose wieght. So, how long did it take for them to die?
6) You point to a book on sleeping disorders, where the author basically states, "buy my book because your very life may be in peril!" We can't blame him for trying. I am sure he only wants to help us at $19.95.
Here is what I am saying:
A person can't die from fatigue - they will get tired and fall asleep
A video game is not to blame for anything in a persons life.
This is getting further and further off topic, but well lets give it a go.Yes people can die of fatigue, there are too many documented cases. From the Greek runner (who inspired marathon) who died after delivering a message, to the overexerted gamer who died during gaming. Yes there are many documented medical case throughout history and over many countries in the past years lately, that exhaustion can lead to instant death, from heart attack to failed internal organs.
A video game is to be blamed for a lot of medical problems, from eye, to hardened shoulders, to damaged tissues (notably fingles and ankles, and sometimes biceps) to body weight, disgestion disorders, sleep problems, you name it. Psychologically, there are even deeper impact than commonly documented, including total distortion in point of views. There are documented cases in which counter-strike guilds meet each other in RL to actually fight it out. The last one I read takes place in Russia.
Yeah some initiatives from officials are sometimes nice, and I think the Chinese crackdown on illegal and potentially dangerous internet cafes and fully understandable. But pushing that crackdown too far might be counterproductive. Lets hope the line is drawn somewhere in the middle of the two extremems. We will have to wait and see.
No, apparently there are just some really stupid people who should have never been allowed to have children. That's not gamings' fault, it's stupidity. Actually those parents are irresponsible, not stupid.
If I had my way, everyone would need a friggen license to have children. The amount of morons, like the ones you cited in your post, kept from breeding would solve population and hunger problems the world over. It is your extremist attitude that makes it hard to maintain a line of discussion with you in peaceful terms. Another extremist can easily say that if he has his way, you will need a license to speak.
Those people being discussed are irresponsible, that does not necessarily mean they are morons, maybe they are very bright but selfish people. Stopping them from breeding would solve population and hunger problems all over the world? Really? Can you substantiate how that can happen?
SUPPORT TAIWANESE INDEPENDENCE
No, apparently there are just some really stupid people who should have never been allowed to have children. That's not gamings' fault, it's stupidity. Actually those parents are irresponsible, not stupid.
If I had my way, everyone would need a friggen license to have children. The amount of morons, like the ones you cited in your post, kept from breeding would solve population and hunger problems the world over. It is your extremist attitude that makes it hard to maintain a line of discussion with you in peaceful terms. Another extremist can easily say that if he has his way, you will need a license to speak.
Those people being discussed are irresponsible, that does not necessarily mean they are morons, maybe they are very bright but selfish people. Stopping them from breeding would solve population and hunger problems all over the world? Really? Can you substantiate how that can happen?
Being late for work is irresponsible. Not taking care of your children so you can play a game, or any other non-essential activity for that matter, is stupidity.
This is no different then what is already done in US cities in regards to arcades. There are many US cities that prohibit and ban any place of business with arcade games from operating during school hours as well as prohibit minors from attending them.
So why you folks are having a knee jerk reaction attached with a false sense outrage over this news piece is beyond me. If a kid is at arcade or internet cafe and he/she playing a game then the cops should grab his/her butt and march him/her back to school ASAP and contact his/her parents. There is nothing wrong with this at all and in fact it has been done many a time with juvenile delinquents in the US.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
Or another attack on Pearl Harbor
So the Sleeping Giant could decimate Japan. Rinse, repeat.
No, apparently there are just some really stupid people who should have never been allowed to have children. That's not gamings' fault, it's stupidity. Actually those parents are irresponsible, not stupid.
If I had my way, everyone would need a friggen license to have children. The amount of morons, like the ones you cited in your post, kept from breeding would solve population and hunger problems the world over. It is your extremist attitude that makes it hard to maintain a line of discussion with you in peaceful terms. Another extremist can easily say that if he has his way, you will need a license to speak.
Those people being discussed are irresponsible, that does not necessarily mean they are morons, maybe they are very bright but selfish people. Stopping them from breeding would solve population and hunger problems all over the world? Really? Can you substantiate how that can happen?
Being late for work is irresponsible. Not taking care of your children so you can play a game, or any other non-essential activity for that matter, is stupidity.
That is your definition, no one can argue with you. But as a reference, we can look into the sentence of a judge in a recent court case in HK about a couple who left their kids locked up at home, and go gambling for days. The judge did not call the couple stupid, he criticised them as totally irresponsible, and send them to jail.At the end of the day, we are arguing what constitutes stupidity. There is no end to this argument. Oh well far fetched and totally irrelevant to the thread again. Poosh.
Oh, FFS.
Honestly, I don't think we do. I never believed we did from the beginning.
It seems you entirely missed the point of my last post. It seems I'm going to be forced to abuse text formatting again.
"Numerous examples of how SLEEP DEBT weakens the body have now begun to emerge from research laboratories. One study showed that if you deprive rats of sleep FOR ONLY 8 HOURS and then challenge the body with a foreign substance, the antibody response is weak. Moreover, the defensive response is still below normal 3 days later. Mice deprived of sleep show decreased immunity to influenza virus infection of the lungs; they also show a reduced ability to reproduce interferon and other vital infection-fighting substances. Recent studies IN HUMANS have also shown that loss of JUST A FEW HOURS OF SLEEP can disrupt the normal pattern of the immune system response."
I am not the one having issues what so ever with simple concepts that more sources then you can shake your fist at will support.
Does high blood pressure sound dangerous at all? Nah, that's so minor. How about heart attack? Heart failure? Stroke?
When you still have to go to work, go to school, get done what needs to be done to keep your job and home and life, you don't always get the chance to catch up on sleep. One marathon session is not going to kill a person. Most normal people will catch up on their debts and be just fine. The people whom have actually died are not normal. Do you honestly think that the kids that died during these hard core sessions have never done it before that time? The whole point that I have repeatedly made is that this whole situation really only applies to a small portion of the community with addictive personalities/impulse control disorders. Even if they eventually fall asleep, they also eventually wake up. And with caffeine, adrenaline, and endorphins bouncing like mad around your head it gets easier and easier to keep going longer and longer.
It's funny you say that I'm all the evidence you need, because I think the exact same thing of myself. My rhythms have been fracked up repeatedly by studying, project deadlines, and many many recreational activities. I have taken days to knock myself flat on my own ass for 20 hours straight due to feeling so sickly. I have sleep aids in the pill box.
You tell me why my sister and I simultaneously caught Norwalk and while she took naps and sipped soup I had to be driven to a hospital.
I also understand that the I have problems other's don't have. I understand that other's have problems I count myself lucky for not possessing. That's why I have constantly said that the only way this issue is going to be resolved is if it's done on an individualized basis.
I also note that you once more didn't cite any sources.
I only have a few minor tweaks. I don't see it as off topic because (and correct me if I'm wrong), from what I've gathered of the mood of a few people posting here, they see the new laws in China as un-justified because they are arguing that death by fatigue is impossible therefore there are no real deaths to spur the passing of the controversial laws. I have simply tried to state the facts that say otherwise.
I don't see video gaming itself is to be blamed for many of these medical issues. I'll concede that gaming is certainly a popular cause, but not the only one. My wrists have been more damaged by writing then gaming personally. This is not the case for everyone though.
I will say this though. Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Also, that Counter-strike incident has piqued the interest of my sadistic side. If you ever find those articles, I'd most appreciate a forward.
~ A Girl Disappearing
PS: Mr. Sandman's elder sibling Death is actually a Ms. and not a Mr.
~~~~~
"Big surprise... there was no protection by this urban light..."
No, apparently there are just some really stupid people who should have never been allowed to have children. That's not gamings' fault, it's stupidity. Actually those parents are irresponsible, not stupid.
If I had my way, everyone would need a friggen license to have children. The amount of morons, like the ones you cited in your post, kept from breeding would solve population and hunger problems the world over. It is your extremist attitude that makes it hard to maintain a line of discussion with you in peaceful terms. Another extremist can easily say that if he has his way, you will need a license to speak.
Those people being discussed are irresponsible, that does not necessarily mean they are morons, maybe they are very bright but selfish people. Stopping them from breeding would solve population and hunger problems all over the world? Really? Can you substantiate how that can happen?
Being late for work is irresponsible. Not taking care of your children so you can play a game, or any other non-essential activity for that matter, is stupidity.
That is your definition, no one can argue with you. But as a reference, we can look into the sentence of a judge in a recent court case in HK about a couple who left their kids locked up at home, and go gambling for days. The judge did not call the couple stupid, he criticised them as totally irresponsible, and send them to jail.At the end of the day, we are arguing what constitutes stupidity. There is no end to this argument. Oh well far fetched and totally irrelevant to the thread again. Poosh.
Never let it be said that I'm not willing to compromise. Therefore, these "parents" are irresponsibly stupid.
taiwanese dare not to say that...they need their uncle Sam to speak for them
Never let it be said that I'm not willing to compromise. Therefore, these "parents" are irresponsibly stupid.
Hahahah, Well said.
LMAO!! The whole lot of ya don't get it!
China is placing these restrictions so North Korea can raid. Kim needs to do Gruul.
China lost the last Opium war, they will lose this one too. It seems like they hate everything Westerners do, even though our imperialism over them is long gone.