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A mmorpg for roleplayers only?

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  • EchelonsEchelons Member Posts: 80

    Originally posted by Lilalu



    Unfortunatly it´s not a matter of game design, if people get along with each other or not. It´s the people themselfs, who are the problem in online games. The bigger the game, the more people there are, the bigger the problem. Publishers of online games will have to face this in the future and they actually have to deal with this already. It´s a not at all cheap problem, because every customer may drive away another potential costumer.

    You must be confusing an industry as large for some non-profit organization.  World of Warcraft has what? 10 Million subscribers and plenty of them are total nuisances to everyone around them.  Fact is they won't address the problem because gamers (not just Role Players) aren't putting their foot down enough to hurt their income.  You or I might leave because of it, but for every 1-2 people putting their foot down there are 1-2,000 more who will put up with it and keep playing.

  • JK-KanosiJK-Kanosi Member Posts: 1,357

    Originally posted by Lilalu


    Yes, your right. Most games are nothing but crap.
    But I don´t think, there ever will be a "general" game. There is not one general game and never will be. Games (especially MMOs) in my eyes are nothing but another media.
    Like the more traditional media (e.g. movies, books), they can have many purposes. They can be used for entertainment, but also e.g. for education. Nowadays almost every houshold in my country has internet access. MMOs in a few years can become what TV is now. And almost everyone could play them.
    As it is now, only a small percentage of the people is interested in MMOs. But MMOs really could become a mass medium.
    The children might play for their school lessons (why not teach history in an e.g. medieval MMO - not a fighting RPG of course) , the older brother might have fun playing a fighting game like Master_Razor wants it, the younger sister "My Pony Farm Online" , the parents a hardcore roleplaying game and grandma might grow her plants in "My Fantasy Garden Online", if she can´t afford to have a real garden. She could also compete with her garden neighbor, who has the most beautiful roses :D.
    Sounds crazy, hm? But why not? Do you really think, grandma will want to fight Master_Razor in a hardcore PvP fight? O.k. just joking about the roses :D and some grandmas maybe like to fight :D.
    Because of technical advancements, it also will become cheaper to develop games in the future.
    Of course there always will be "mainstream" games to.  But as it is with movies, why shouldn´t there be also non-mainstream productions or different games for different people and purposes?
     
     
     
     
    I don't see this happening, because the goal of business is to offer something that isn't already being offered or offered enough of. Who in the hell really wants to play a MMORPG where all you do is wake up, eat breakfast, send the kids to school, go to work, actually do the work online, come home, make sure the kids do their homework, and then go to bed to wake up and do it all over again? No one, because why would anyone ever pay to do something online, which yeilds no physical benefits or rewards, when they can do it in real life. To reinforce my point, how many T.V. shows, movies, or books are out right now that entertain you with everyday type of things? How many shows are about what a person does from sun up to sun down. How many books lead you step by step on how to grow up and go to school, go to college, go to work, raise a family, and then die? None, because no one wants to read in detail about someone doing those things when they do that in real life.

    The fact is that most people's lives are fairly boring the majority of the time and a person wants to watch a T.V. show, movie, read a book or play a game that doesn't capatalize on what is boring. We want to read something that entertains us. Not to mention that the longer we spend in front of a computer the less productive we are in society and (no offense) the fatter people get. I really don't want to get into what people should do with their lives, but I know everyone can agree that spending most of our time in front of a computer isn't ideal or healthy. Learning in front of a computer in a MMO, then coming home to plant a garden or whatever on an MMO, and then going to bed in our MMO right before we go to bed in real life is a bit much and is at best a stretch to believe our world will turn to such means of entertainment.

    There will always be a lot of people who would rather be on their feet doing something than sitting in front of a computer for several hours every day.

    MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW

    Currently Playing: WAR
    Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.

  • LilaluLilalu Member Posts: 68

    I really, don´t think we should sit in front of the computer screen all day long. But this isn´t a reason, not to use the computer in education. Who says, you have to do this all day long? Everyone has to decide for him/herself how many time he wants to spend playing a computer game.

    Actually I am using the computer for education, work and entertainment. But I still read books (many of them, because I like to read a lot) and I am active in alpine sports (hiking and some free climbing) also. We can use modern media with the necessary responsibility - but nevertheless, we can (and should) use them.

    Here in my country there are many TV shows, which focus on everyday life and don´t show much violence. They are called "soap opera". We have one, that has been running for almost 20 years now and people still are crazy about it :D. Can´t see why such stuff (when millions of peope just in my country love to watch it, should not work in an MMO).

    In fact I would never play a game, which offers nothing but constantly repeated monster slaying for nothing more real but a new pixel sword. I´d much prefer a roleplayed (sometimes tragic, sometimes funny) "Soap opera".

  • JK-KanosiJK-Kanosi Member Posts: 1,357

    Originally posted by Lilalu


    I really, don´t think we should sit in front of the computer screen all day long. But this isn´t a reason, not to use the computer in education. Who says, you have to do this all day long? Everyone has to decide for him/herself how many time he wants to spend playing a computer game.
    Actually I am using the computer for education, work and entertainment. But I still read books (many of them, because I like to read a lot) and I am active in alpine sports (hiking and some free climbing) also. We can use modern media with the necessary responsibility - but nevertheless, we can (and should) use them.
    Here in my country there are many TV shows, which focus on everyday life and don´t show much violence. They are called "soap opera". We have one, that has been running for almost 20 years now and people still are crazy about it :D. Can´t see why such stuff (when millions of peope just in my country love to watch it, should not work in an MMO).
    In fact I would never play a game, which offers nothing but constantly repeated monster slaying for nothing more real but a new pixel sword. I´d much prefer a roleplayed (sometimes tragic, sometimes funny) "Soap opera".
    I go to school online myself, so I see the value in having a computer play a role in our education. I just don't think playing a game is great for education. There are good games, such as those found on V-Smile (my son plays) that are outstanding for teaching young kids. I don't know, I ever say something is impossible, so I guess you could learn through playing educational oriented games, but I'd rather spend our tax dollars on books and software programs whose sole design is for education.

    I spend a lot of time on my computer too. I use it for education and entertainment. In fact, I spend the majority of my time online. I think it is very unhealthy (my back and neck hurts after a while), but thankfully I am a Martial Artist, so I spend about 2 hours at my martial arts school 4 days a week. Once I start my career (doing a career change at 29 yrs old), I will hopefully only spend at most 2 hours a day online. Anyhow, that really doesn't matter and it isn't my place to tell someone how they should live and how much time they should spend online.

    Now that you mention it, I do remember Soap Opera's. We have several that have been around for 30 or so years. What makes them interesting is the drama involved, with backstabbing, rivalries and so on. However, they really don't get into work and family raising. So basically, you know this guy is a doctor and that girl a nurse and they are having an affair while the doctors wife is on business elsewhere, but you never really see the every day tedium of being a doctor or nurse on T.V.  So people watch these shows for the drama, which is entertaining. There really isn't much drama involved in running a shop or business or planting a garden in MMORPGs.

    I agree that repetitive monster killing games get old and are boring. I would love to play a Knight in a MMORPG. Not only would I have the responsibility of leading soldiers in combat and keeping them trained (when wars occur), but I would also be responsible for maintaining the land I own and taking care of its inhabitants. So as you can see, not only can I participate in combat, but also in politics, city building, social work and so on. I would be roleplaying as a Knight as I do all of those things. MMORPGs are missing that aspect. Take Paladins for example. We know they are servants of the church, yet you never see them do anything really religious. Instead, you see them using holy magic, wielding a large sword, completing these delivery missions and commiting acts of immorality when they commit genocide on the inhabitants of the game world.

    Wouldn't you find it interesting to live in the midevil time period where Knights, Kings, Lords, and etc. existed. Sure, you could play the Innkeeper or whoever you want and never fight, but wouldn't it be nice to know that you were in a believable world? A world where anything could happen and at least you have people willing to fight when those things do happen? What if what you were doing impacted the world. A soldier cannot participate in politics, but you being a bright young scholar could participate in politics, making decisions of where troops will go, where boundaries are laid for kingdoms, treaties and trade agreements between nations, building a nation from scratch and maintaining it and so on.

    MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW

    Currently Playing: WAR
    Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.

  • LilaluLilalu Member Posts: 68

    Yes sure, this believable roleplaying world is what I am looking for. But a world is not believable, if there is only one single aspect and that´s fighting. That´s how MMORPGs work at the moment. There aren´t innkeepers (or they are just NPC). There also are no players visiting inns. They are much to busy, running through the games, killing monsters.

    I´d love to play an innkeeper in such a MMO :D. Would be very interesting to have all the people come to your playce and cossip. A lot of drama would go on in such an inn, too.

    This kind of drama is, what makes roleplaying so interesting. It´s stories developed by the players themselfs. Not just predesigned quests to consume.

    But there also have to be ways, to get somewhere in the game, to earn money, to make a "living" for those players, who are not interested in fighting. In an MMO like e.g. Lord of the Rings Online I am able to roleplay only a beggar. Because if I want to earn money and buy a house, I have to fight monsters. In fact I did for about a week. After this I was so bored, I just cancled my account and I really don´t want to do any monster (or player) slaying anymore.

    For simple game play aspects I like building and economical games much much more, than fighting games (never played single player finghting games).

    And by the way, who says learning and education can´t be fun too? In fact, when learning is fun, it´s easier, faster and more effective. Why not use some MMO for teaching e.g. medieval history? Students really could walk their characters in such a world (would have nothing in common with WoW, of course) and get a feeling, how society worked. Of course teachers also would have to play with them for instructional reasons.

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Member CommonPosts: 3,675

    Absolutely true.  When you look at the only gauges of success these games have, it's either material wealth (what you've been able to scavenge off the bodies you've killed) or "levels" (what you've been able to earn in experience by killing things).  I don't really see either of those as success, just accomplishment.  In fact, I don't need any form of external validation to tell me I'm having a good time or getting somewhere, I just need to enjoy my time and find my activities worthwhile, even if they don't get me a bigger sword or another level.

    In the end, mindless competition for the purpose of showing off to others is shallow and stupid.  What do you care what others think of you?  What idiot actually cares if people in a game are afraid of him?  That's the sign of an unhealthy mind.  All that should matter is whether you, by your own standards, are enjoying yourself.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • Master_RazorMaster_Razor Member Posts: 226

    I'm currently in school to learn how to design video games because, more than anything else, that is what I want to do.

    I've been getting tons of ideas since joining this site. Hopefully someday I'll come up with an MMO that even Lilalu could play.

    I've said before that an RPG does not need experience to be good. It doesn't need leveling up. Also, having permadeath in a game is something I'd like (and woudn't keep me from fighting either :D). I'd love to be in a world just like the real world was in the middle ages (besides all the disease and lack of hygiene...).

    While magic doesn't have to exist in the game, people like it and it's a big part of the fantasy genre. There would simply have to be limits on what people were capable of doing with it, like destroying entire cities.

    I'm gonna think about this more, maybe I'll come up with something good.


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  • Storm_seerStorm_seer Member UncommonPosts: 12

    You guys need to try a Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World, or a Neverwinter Nights Persistent World. These are RP based, living breathing worlds, and on a good one your characters actions matter to the social, economical, and general world around you.

    If you love RP, it is an experience not to be missed.

     

  • Prince0CharmPrince0Charm Member Posts: 2

    The game should have lore, and should also have some sort of story, but this should be more like a guideline than the major meaning with the game

  • DDelliriumDDellirium Member Posts: 2

    I'm with the idea of letting each player purchase houses, which can be done with the system in GW, where each player gets a private copy of the explorable areas.

  • mlambert890mlambert890 Member UncommonPosts: 136

    I like the spirit of the OP, but unfortunately, none of this is commercially viable.  Even for a boutique house.  Only with player managed worlds might the niche be addressed (ie - NWN)

    The reason is readily apparent right here on this thread.  The niche of people who truly want RP is small, but more importantly, it is very fragmented.  There are already several camps of folks just on this thread.  I know for a fact I would *not* play the game that some of the most vocal here want to design (essentially a true to life representation of life in the middle ages).  That doesnt sound remotely fun to me.  I dont want to start a character, have no way to differentiate myself beyond colorful dialogue (since some are advocating no experience) and then catch smallpox and permanently die at worse or last a few months before dying of old age at best.

    I would like to play a game *similar* to the MMOs of today, that still offer  tiered progression, a chance to be weaker than some, and stronger than others, based on time and effort put into the game, FFA PVP and some kind of game mechanic that strongly encouraged and semi-enforced true RP.  This game would very much appeal to me and some of the others on this thread, but would not at all appeal to the folks that want the first game described.

    So a commercial effort, no matter how small, needs to measure its potential market.  The potential market of RPers is some fractional percentage of all gamers.  Then within that you have ADDITIONAL fractional percentages who want very incompatible things.  It isnt going to happen.  The best bet is to wait for toolboxes to get more powerful, and hosting to get easier, and search out player created content - perhaps a NWN3 or 4 or beyond and HOPEFULLY something similar that ISNT fantasy.  I love fantasy, but there are other fun genres also that I would like to explore.

  • CoveofruthCoveofruth Member Posts: 2

    I also have more far-off ideas like having children, but no real solutions on how it should be done. I believe it would be boring eventually if we had a "Neopets" system for children.

    Additionally, a marriage system makes sense, as well

  • CaellachCaellach Member Posts: 25

     

    Originally posted by mlambert890


    I like the spirit of the OP, but unfortunately, none of this is commercially viable.  Even for a boutique house.  Only with player managed worlds might the niche be addressed (ie - NWN)
    The reason is readily apparent right here on this thread.  The niche of people who truly want RP is small, but more importantly, it is very fragmented.  There are already several camps of folks just on this thread.  I know for a fact I would *not* play the game that some of the most vocal here want to design (essentially a true to life representation of life in the middle ages).  That doesnt sound remotely fun to me.  I dont want to start a character, have no way to differentiate myself beyond colorful dialogue (since some are advocating no experience) and then catch smallpox and permanently die at worse or last a few months before dying of old age at best.
    I would like to play a game *similar* to the MMOs of today, that still offer  tiered progression, a chance to be weaker than some, and stronger than others, based on time and effort put into the game, FFA PVP and some kind of game mechanic that strongly encouraged and semi-enforced true RP.  This game would very much appeal to me and some of the others on this thread, but would not at all appeal to the folks that want the first game described.
    So a commercial effort, no matter how small, needs to measure its potential market.  The potential market of RPers is some fractional percentage of all gamers.  Then within that you have ADDITIONAL fractional percentages who want very incompatible things.  It isnt going to happen.  The best bet is to wait for toolboxes to get more powerful, and hosting to get easier, and search out player created content - perhaps a NWN3 or 4 or beyond and HOPEFULLY something similar that ISNT fantasy.  I love fantasy, but there are other fun genres also that I would like to explore.



    You are completey right about the RP market. Something I've noticed is that people have a lot of prejudice about roleplaying. They're either deadly afraid of trying it, thinking they will make fools of themselves, or display the "RP is for geeks" attitude. I once persuaded a friend, a rather outgoing fella who is always in the sentrum of attention in crows, to try RP on WoW. She completely panicked, thinking everyone would laugh of the newbie. With that kind of reactions to RP, it's no wonder the niche is fragmented and small. RP is all "unknown and scary".

     

    Anyway, most of the ideas presented here are indeed not going to be seen in a MMO. It's all wistful talk, but I still think it is very interesting to hear what the RPers have to say. I started this thread to see what a "dream game" for RPers would be like, though now it seems like people would rather argue about what is best between hack&slash and dialogue based games.

    Personally, I'm like you; a progress-game is indeed what appeals to me most. This is why, the best solution, (ambitionous far-off-in-time ideas set aside) would be to create a game similar to World of Warcraft, but with a lot more details that would make it attractive for people who aren't interested in waving with a sword all the time.

    While I'm all for the non-mainstream Lilalu mentioned, I'm afraid there won't be any "big" pacifistic or overly "realistic" game. The majority of the buyers just don't want that.

     

     

     

  • JK-KanosiJK-Kanosi Member Posts: 1,357

    Originally posted by Caellach


     


    You are completey right about the RP market. Something I've noticed is that people have a lot of prejudice about roleplaying. They're either deadly afraid of trying it, thinking they will make fools of themselves, or display the "RP is for geeks" attitude. I once persuaded a friend, a rather outgoing fella who is always in the sentrum of attention in crows, to try RP on WoW. She completely panicked, thinking everyone would laugh of the newbie. With that kind of reactions to RP, it's no wonder the niche is fragmented and small. RP is all "unknown and scary".
     
    Anyway, most of the ideas presented here are indeed not going to be seen in a MMO. It's all wistful talk, but I still think it is very interesting to hear what the RPers have to say. I started this thread to see what a "dream game" for RPers would be like, though now it seems like people would rather argue about what is best between hack&slash and dialogue based games.
    Personally, I'm like you; a progress-game is indeed what appeals to me most. This is why, the best solution, (ambitionous far-off-in-time ideas set aside) would be to create a game similar to World of Warcraft, but with a lot more details that would make it attractive for people who aren't interested in waving with a sword all the time.
    While I'm all for the non-mainstream Lilalu mentioned, I'm afraid there won't be any "big" pacifistic or overly "realistic" game. The majority of the buyers just don't want that.
     
     
     

    I agree, which is why we learn to make do with what we have. All we can hope for is for developers to give us more options in game. Everyone has their own tastes, but I think Darkfall is right up my alley. While I am not a big PvP buff, I like the complete freedom I will have in game. Yes, I might have to suffer through a few greefers, but what is stopping me from fighting back? There are bullies and murderers in real life, so it is more realistic to have them in game and a way to handle them, which there is. Anyhow, I just wanted to point out that you are right, we cannot expect a developer to cater to the RPers. The best they can do is to cater to all player types and add many features that will also give the RPers an easier time when they try to RP. It really isn't that hard to ignore the chat box, /add ignore, or turn the general channels off.

    MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW

    Currently Playing: WAR
    Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.

  • ggsdduggsddu Member Posts: 5

    i only lit mmorg

  • hebe010hebe010 Member Posts: 2

    Character age, choice of bodies (slender/bulky/tall/short) beautiful/less attractive faces, ect are a must. There should also be a wide choice of haircuts and haircolors, option for facial hair, ect. Rather than adding accessories like hairbands and earrings on the chars initally, those should be possible to aquire in the game. Also, all character options should be available to all classes! (GW had a decent character creation sheet, but here was its flaw

  • hybethushybethus Member Posts: 2

    The character creation sheet shout be put a lot of weight on. While the system in Oblivion may be overdoing it, I might bash WoW a little and say that the character creation options there are below a game with so much potential. I could barely play any male character at all there, they simply looked too horrible for my picky tastes

  • HilnesilacHilnesilac Member Posts: 1

    Well, all images in the game should be more real, not virtual,  then how will the game to be? Graphics are essential to make such a game attractive though, cool, clear and well made or draw maps are important for all of us, which makes people pleasant.  Also PVP system is important, developers should think of how to make it more attractive, and how to make it as fair as possible.

  • mmorpg55mmorpg55 Member Posts: 4

    it should meet all players demands indeed

  • GlamisGlamis Member Posts: 84

    It might not help you, but if you really want some awesome role playing you should check out some muds.

     

    Two great sites for information about muds:

     

    http://www.mudconnector.com

    http://www.topmudsites.com

     

  • CataclysmSoTCataclysmSoT Member Posts: 8

    Another good game is Shades of Truth. The engine is a bit dated, but the game is 100% Role-play enforced and rewards XP for excellent roleplay.

    http://underlight.ixios.net

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