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A mmorpg for roleplayers only?

24

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  • CharlizdCharlizd Member UncommonPosts: 923

    Originally posted by jaxterirl


    -This is going to be a long post-
     
     
    This idea plays in my mind everytime i think about games, an RP-only game. Basically the main thing you Have to take into matter for this is making it realistic. Having no gear that gives any form of stat for your character, Having your character have actual deaths like if you jumped off a cliff... you're dead and that character cant be shown again other than in a graveyard, food and drink that can make you get fatter, Marraige ceremonies and Children (NPC or player). But here are a few things ive come up with in the last 2 years of finding out about RP (Im only 16, but a hardcore mature RPer).
    Monsters and Monster Slaying:
    For this, you want realistic Aggroing and killing. In games like WoW, you could be killing an NPC humanoid, right in front of another one, but not aggroing the other one even though he's looking directly at you. This bugged me alot as it just yells 'Im a computer! you have to be a little closer to aggro me!'.  Basically, lets say you're fighting a sheep, When you hit a sheep whats the real way it would react? If you said fight back, get back into the real world, it would runaway. Also, realistic combat settings for monsters, for example, if you're fighting a Dragon, and it blows fire at you, if you dont step out of the way of it you're dead. Or if you are pitting against a bear, and its your first time fighting anything, you're gonna be brutally malled. Also Looting and some kind of honour or experience will be needed, as if you go through killing a monster there has to be some kind of reward, So lets say you kill that nasty dragon, you can loot Dragon Meat! or Dragon scales or a dragon tooth to wear as a trophy. Or, you kill the dragon and get a special title or something that lets both NPCs and Players know you've slayed a dragon, and therefore get some bonuses, such as Free-Ale because the Barmaid is impressed.
    Gear and Weapons:
    This is of course one of the most important things to take into RP, as it's a fantasy ( i assume this is all about fantasy RPing) and fantasy would be nothing without awesome armour and kick ass weapons. First off, No stats, a weapon is only as good as the bearer. Although, something like Sharpness/Bluntness as durability, age, weight etc. could act as stats. As for armour, all pieces of armour should have a weight, which can determine your mobility, but also your less likely to die. Also, armour will be something you cant easily obtain, Crafting (will explain in another paragraph), or thieving or any way you get money would of course be needed to pay for armour, and it isnt cheap, some person who just joined the game couldnt just get a plate mail set as a gift, unless from a friend. If, lets say, we put ages in this, you can choose to be: Child, Young adult, Adult, Elderly ; you cant wield heavy armour if you're a child or elderly. And lets say health has soemthing to do with this too, if you're some fat arse who sits in the pub the whole time drinking ale, you shouldnt be able to swing a sword rapidly or wield really heavy armour.  As for weapons, they should be kept simple, a blade attached to a hilt, an axe attached to a stick, none of this WoW crap with a mace that has a floating crystal on it.
    Containers and Item space:
    This isnt really essential, but it adds to the realistic feeling. Backpacks should be seen on the character, or pouches and sacks. Each Backpack or pouch should have a weight and size limit, weight can be sorted by giving every item a weight, and giving a backpack a max. weight, which also effects your speed and mobility. For size, i think i should refer to dungeoun siege, where they had a box slot system, where an item would take up a few boxes (depending on size) , and If you didnt have enough space for it, tough crap, dump something ot leave it. This, i think, gives alot of realism so people cant be going around with like a thousand weapons on them the whole time.As extra space, instead of using banks, player owned housing (Explain later!), could have storage boxed and chests, etc. Or in mounts (Also explain later) you could have saddle bags or even a Pack Mule in case of heavy items.
    Crafting:
    Crafting will be amazingly important for a fully RP game, as there will be little to no actual NPC vendors, and instead Players will have to do it themselves, open a shop and sell their wares. Simple. Well, kinda. You could buy a property from a carpenter who has made it, and set up a shop, thats gives storage and anything you need to craft what you want. A few examples for Professions ives come with are:
    Forestry (supplies for Carpentry)

    Carpentry (Housing, House accessories)

    Mining (supplies for Blacksmithing)

    Blacksmithing (Weapons and armour)

    Gardening (House Accessories and food)

    Farming (Supplies for gardening? Food and hops)

    Fishing (Food and suprises [Catch some oysters for pearls etc.])

    Trinketry (Jeweller)

    etc.
    The possiblities are endless! I think you would have to have a levelling system for crafting, so everyone just cant be creating the high-cost stuff all the time.
    Housing:
    Yes, Housing is a definate for an RP game. Im thinking, there should be a few towns around a major city, that have an inn, a townshall, and a few pre-made buildings, and enough space for a few crafted houses. The cities will then have all pre-made houses, a few inns, a City hall, a crafting hall, schools, etc. (Per-made houses because if people keep building houses the lag will be enormous). The houses will have a build-mode, where you'll place objects you have in your house inventory around the inside of the house, and there will be space around the outside for gardens.
    Mounts:
    Well, it would be hard to travel around a world without some help. Of course mounts wont be allowed into houses or any buildings, but they will be allowed everywhere else, no more WoW style, go into a cave and auto-dis-mount. Also, as i said before, saddle bags for extra storage, and yes, along with the actual cost of buying a mount you gotta feed it and wash it etc. Of course, the mount types will be determined by the world you're in e.g. Horse or Rhino or Tiger.
    Combat System:
    Basically, combat will be available to do at anytime, as that -is- real. No more challenging to a duel or putting PvP on or anything. Of course there are consequences, game wise and RP wise, You'll get a title like 'Murderer' or 'Mugger' that NPCs and Players will recognise, and they can cast you out until you are forgiven. As for the system itself, as disucssed rolling for hits and Dueling isnt the best way, so there should be an advanced comabt system, where you are given an interface, you choose how to attack, and due to circumstances, the player or NPC will either get to defend or react differently. E.g. a bar fight could go like this:
    Player 1: Insults Player 2

    Player 2: Swings a punch *selects right hook button*

    Player 1: Tries to defend *Goes for left defence button*

    Player 2: Punch successful

    Player 1: Is hurt.
    Something along those lines. Of course for serious things as lets say, someone trying to stab the other guy, the player who is about to be stabbed gets a total say in wether its the end, or if he's injured or whatever.
    This is highly possible to achieve with a good games company, as it wouldnt have to worry about skills, or storylines or balancing classes, just RP, and would have a massive turn out of RPers.
    Seeing as this is a long post, im gonna cut it there, but There's alot more in-depth ideas in my mind. ^^
    But, hope some Dev comes along and sees this, cause then id have my perfect game ^^
    But, www.theguild2.com Seems fairly good for RP, nice scenery awesome grpahics, but only 8 people can play in one server online.. so it sucks for that.. but if you have a small group its your best bet for total-RP ^^
    Thanks if you read this xD
     
    - Jax
    You know you have some good views and i would also like to see these implemented into a new mmo a world from which you grow and it grows with you but unfortunately there are not enough of us out there to give back to the company whom makes this enough to keep the project alive.

    Well here's to hoping it can be done a new total RP sandbox mmo with limitless boundaries.

    Andrew "Charlizd" Phippen | Lead World Builder | The Saga of Lucimia MMORPG
  • JK-KanosiJK-Kanosi Member Posts: 1,357

    Originally posted by Lilalu


     A role-playing game with many role-players in it would not be boring. You will be so busy role-playing, you will hardly have time to think about monsters.
    The players will invent different stories, whole plots and even epic adventures. It works believe me! And if the players get some help from volunteers and even the payed staff, this can be fun.
    But it should not be possible to just get into the game, slay several hundred monsters, ignore other people, get some gear and go on to the next game.
    No involvment in role-playing, no working with your fellow players, no own ideas and own activity - no fun!
    I don´t think it will work to just make the monster slaying less rewarding. Then people will come, who want to do pvp or pve without "Kiddies".
    And I also don´t think different servers for different kind of role-players would be a good idea. If people are willing to role-play and know it´s required in this game (all the time, not only when you are just bored from monster-slaying), they will do it. Who doesn´t can be banned.
    There has to be an all-over role-playing atmosphere created by the players. Then the newbies will just get into it automatically. There will be no other ways to play such a game than role-playing it.
    But it does not have to be the usual monster-slaying game, which is fun also when you don´t role-play. Because then there will always be people (and many of them), who WILL have fun without role-playing and the atmosphere will be destroyed.

    Most would call a RPG without any fighting in it a SIMS game and there are plenty of those out there. Just a question: Have you ever thought about that maybe there are a ton of RPers that actually like fighting and PvP? I mean, I don't like RPing as an average person or some farmer or business man. I can do all of that in real life. Hell, in real life I am an Infantry Marine doing high speed stuff and a martial artist. I've also explored the world and have done other neat things. Why does my MMORPG life have to be duller than my real life? No, in a game I want to RP as the Warrior Mage who slays dragons, fights off the Orcs, sees the world and is the town hero. Plenty of RPers like that or DnD pen and paper would have never been popular. As for PvP, isn't it anti-RP not to have PvP in the game? If you tell a person they cannot be at war with another willing player, because a "leet dewd" might play your game, don't you think that will drive away the hardcore RPers that don't want any rules at all? After all, the biggest RPing game in the world (real life) allows you to murder, get revenge, assassinate, or be at war with other people; so why can't a RPG?

    I'm just saying that you are cutting out probably the majority of RPers out there if you do not allow them to become hero's by becoming that Warrior Mage, Thief, Assassin, Barbarian or whatever. You can get away with no PvP if a player cannot provoke another person into a blood rage, like you can in real life. I think you would be happier in a SIMS game to be honest.

    MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW

    Currently Playing: WAR
    Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.

  • JK-KanosiJK-Kanosi Member Posts: 1,357

    Originally posted by Lilalu


     A role-playing game with many role-players in it would not be boring. You will be so busy role-playing, you will hardly have time to think about monsters.
    The players will invent different stories, whole plots and even epic adventures. It works believe me! And if the players get some help from volunteers and even the payed staff, this can be fun.
    But it should not be possible to just get into the game, slay several hundred monsters, ignore other people, get some gear and go on to the next game.
    No involvment in role-playing, no working with your fellow players, no own ideas and own activity - no fun!
    I don´t think it will work to just make the monster slaying less rewarding. Then people will come, who want to do pvp or pve without "Kiddies".
    And I also don´t think different servers for different kind of role-players would be a good idea. If people are willing to role-play and know it´s required in this game (all the time, not only when you are just bored from monster-slaying), they will do it. Who doesn´t can be banned.
    There has to be an all-over role-playing atmosphere created by the players. Then the newbies will just get into it automatically. There will be no other ways to play such a game than role-playing it.
    But it does not have to be the usual monster-slaying game, which is fun also when you don´t role-play. Because then there will always be people (and many of them), who WILL have fun without role-playing and the atmosphere will be destroyed.

    Again, you act like "monster slaying" and RPing cannot go together.

    My first community interaction in WoW was of a lvl 60 Paladin riding in on his mount into Goldshire asking for volunteers to destroy the undead at Raven Hill. I was lvl 5 and had no idea what Raven Hill was, but the Paladin was charismatic and persuasive, so I joined him and a bunch of other people around me as we marched off to Raven Hill to destroy the undead under the leadership of this Paladin. So many stories, movies, pen and paper games and so on are so entertaining because they give us conflict. Someone is causing somebody injustice and pain and the hero comes along to save the day. A lot of RPers want to be that somebody and your acting like it is two separate playstyles, when it isn't. In fact, monster slaying is a huge part of role playing for the majority of RPers out there. If you don't believe me, start up a poll. Ask people what they would rather do AS they RP: Go on an adventure that includes combat; Going on an exploration adventure that promises no combat; doing real life chores and work (ala farming, raising kids etc.); going to war with another nation; or drinking in a tavern. I bet most would say "Go on an adventure that includes combat" or "going to war with another nation."

    MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW

    Currently Playing: WAR
    Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.

  • LilaluLilalu Member Posts: 68

    Sorry, I think you misunderstood. I never said, fighting and RP does not go together. I just said, if the the game is fun also for non-Rpers, they will want to play it (and who is going to stop them?) and destroy the all over RP-atmosphere.

    I can´t see any other way than not to implement an interesting fighting and quest system, which keeps everyone busy even if he/she is not an Rper and just wants to slay a hundered monsters as quickly as possible. Maybe some PvP could be possible. But it should come because of an Rp-story plot and it does not necessarily have to be the technically most advanced fighting system. The more boring, the less non-Rpers.

    So if you want interesting fighting or a lot of fighting, you always will have to share the game with non-Rpers. It´s your business, if you don´t mind or fighting for you is more important than RP. But nowadays it´s not possible to have both RP and interesting fighting in one game at the same time. It´s a question of priorities.

    If we want both fighting and RP, we will have to play two games. I really don´t believe it´s possible to have both in one game. But if someone manages to make such a game and keep the RP-atmosphere I would be happy also. I just don´t believe it can be done.

  • JK-KanosiJK-Kanosi Member Posts: 1,357

     

    Originally posted by Lilalu


    Sorry, I think you misunderstood. I never said, fighting and RP does not go together. I just said, if the the game is fun also for non-Rpers, they will want to play it (and who is going to stop them?) and destroy the all over RP-atmosphere.
    I can´t see any other way than not to implement an interesting fighting and quest system, which keeps everyone busy even if he/she is not an Rper and just wants to slay a hundered monsters as quickly as possible. Maybe some PvP could be possible. But it should come because of an Rp-story plot and it does not necessarily have to be the technically most advanced fighting system. The more boring, the less non-Rpers.
    So if you want interesting fighting or a lot of fighting, you always will have to share the game with non-Rpers. It´s your business, if you don´t mind or fighting for you is more important than RP. But nowadays it´s not possible to have both RP and interesting fighting in one game at the same time. It´s a question of priorities.
    If we want both fighting and RP, we will have to play two games. I really don´t believe it´s possible to have both in one game. But if someone manages to make such a game and keep the RP-atmosphere I would be happy also. I just don´t believe it can be done.



    Nope, I completely understand what you are saying, but I don't feel you are grasping what I am saying. I am saying that without any fighting, there won't be much of a RPing community either, because most RPers find adventuring and slaying monsters synonomous with playing a role. What you do when you cut out combat is elliminate all of the people wanting to RP as Hunters, Warriors, Wizards, Pirates, Soldiers and Combative Sailors, and any other profession that would enable them to become a hero. All you have left are the RPers that only like to drink alcohol in the tavern, cyber on the internet, pick crops and craft furniture. There would be no  armorsmiths, weaponsmiths or any other profession that makes their living off of adventurers. I think that if a game is realistic enough, even when it comes to combat, it would drive off the crowd you don't want. Why don't the majority of people join the military, become mercenaries, assassins, or adventurers in real life? It's because those things are dangerous and could cost you your life. Well, if a person dies in a RPing game, they should die permanently. How many people do you think will really want to fight the Orcs after that or slay the Dragon? Combative professions become a challenge to play and their achievments will actually make them hero's in-game and they would become famous for it. The downside is that if they die, well they are dead. Could you imagine a city without police, a country without a military, or a fantasy setting without magic, knights, and guards? Why would you want to neuter the largest draw to these setting by making the game a game for pacifists who just want to relive their life in a game? Everything you propose can be lived out in real life, which is why they call it SIMS and not a RPG. When you start adding adventure into the game and a story, combative professions and etc, that is what makes the game a RPG. Show me one RPG that proves otherwise.

     

    I actually think the only solution to having a game you can RP in is to have RPing servers that are heavily moderated and whose rules are enforced. Something like that is a lot easier to implement than to keep non-Rpers out of your game. I know there are many games out there that have RPing or Unofficial RPing servers for their games. Those with official RPing servers have strict rules in order to keep people RPing, but not only does the moderators not enforce the rules outside of naming violations, the community doesn't take much effort in reporting them either due to the thought that it wouldn't make a difference. When a WoW CS representative was asked why they didn't heavily moderate the RPing servers, they said "why should we if the RPing community doesn't care?" They got this impression from the RPers never fighting for their server. When Moonguard was released, the RPers put their foot down and reported everyone who violated the RPing rules. I know before I left after 6 months, it was a server for RPers. I was in a 60+ member RPing guild and the guild I was in was just 1 of many. So you see, it isn't so much up to the moderators, yet up to the players. Before WoW came out, the MMORPG community wouldn't tolerate such immaturity and rudeness you see nowadays. They banded together and made anyone who fit the bill feel very unwelcome and those type of people pretty much left or kept quiet.

    It is up to the community of RPers to take control of their environment. If the RPers don't, the moderators who make money from every subscription sure as hell won't.

    MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW

    Currently Playing: WAR
    Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.

  • LilaluLilalu Member Posts: 68

    No the problem is, that nowadays the percentage of RPers is much smaller than those of non-Rpers. So if you try to regulate a server very strictly, but soon have about 80% Non-Rpers and only 20% Rpers (which would be much more than in an average MMO) on it, your system won´t work. Those 20% Rpers can report as much as possible, it won´t bother the 80% Non-Rpers.

    I know, because we tried once in an RP-project to have an RP only server. For about three days  the atmosphere was great. But then we simply were outnumbered by non-Rpers.

    The only way to have an RP-only game is to make the game unattractive for non-Rpers. As an Rper you still can have fun in such a game, because if there are no quests, Rpers invent their own stories. Non-Rpers won´t have fun that way.

    I am playing on an NWN2-RP-Server. We have a lot of fun there. There are some quests, but content is nothing at all in comparison to a big MMO. Nevertheless we have much more fun, than I ever had in any MMO - because of the people, the stories, the interactions. There is some fighting and PvP too. But it is a rare thing to happen. And we also have a jail, so it´s usually no fun to kill someone :D

     

  • jaxterirljaxterirl Member Posts: 17

    I want to try NWN 2 RP... but the laptop im on sucks sooo much xD

     

    I gotta wait till May to get my new computer.. and hopefully ill be able to join a good RP shard on it, Hopefully anyways...

     

    -jax

  • zhakyzhaky Member Posts: 8

    first of all people.. check out Adellion, it has what most RPers are looking for in a mmoRPg.

    Another thing I would like to say, is that you kill the RP by removing PvP, but in order to reduce the number of non-RPers or anti-RPers on the game, you make a system that doesn't show anything about ability.. no lvls, no names of armour or stats, just what is visual to the char, that way they won't like the PvP as much, as they have no clue wheter they can beat the other or not, + the perma death. I'm not saying that it will hold all of them away, but I do believe it will reduce the number of their kinds in the game.

    (I'm tired, so please excuse me if you find any wrong spellings.. oh and nYfe how do you join that WoW server?)

  • LilaluLilalu Member Posts: 68

    Yes, I had a look at the Adellion page. It´s a very very interesting game.

    I hope they will be able to finish the game. It´s always a problem for this small, independent game developers. But maybe they will make it.

    Maybe their concept also will work. It sounds good. But it could also be interesting for hardcore Pvp-players, who want a perma death feature. Then the more peaceful among the roleplayers will not have much fun in this game.

    But if Adellion gets finished I will definitly try it and hope for the best.

     

  • zhakyzhaky Member Posts: 8

    You really think they would like it, considering that they can't see their own strenght or other's strength? And that there's strict rules against such things? If it is discovered that they do not RP well, they will be banned from the game?

  • Master_RazorMaster_Razor Member Posts: 226

    Here's a solution to the problem that doesn't eliminate combat.

    Eliminate experience. I know, I just spoke blasphemy, but it would work.

    If all someone ever got out of going into a field and slaughtering one hundred monsters is a few shouts of praise from villagers, non-rpers are gonna leave pretty darn quick. Also if you eliminate experience, levels, and stats, then no one has any advantage over another just based on statistics they've gained by leveling or from gear. I'm sure at least 75% of all of the non-role players will lose interest in the game very quickly if they don't have stats to grind up.

    A game like this would have high visual standards, as looks would be one of the few reasons for preferring one piece of armor over another or one weapon over another. The biggest reason would be more of a sensible one. A breastplate of heavy plate-mail will protect you much better than leather, but will also weigh you down.

    I'll think more about this.


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  • Cephus404Cephus404 Member CommonPosts: 3,675

    You don't have to eliminate experience, you just have to eliminate it's relationship to violence.  Killing things via PVP or PVE might get you stuff, but it shouldn't have anything to do with you levelling up.  Leave it in the hands of the players who gets experience and who doesn't based on their RP performance.  If a player thinks another player does something particularly noteworthy, they can anonymously give a certain number of XP.

    It's not a perfect system but it would eliminate all the PVP kiddies who want to level up as fast as possible without having to do anything but swing a sword.

     

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • zhakyzhaky Member Posts: 8

    In a game like Adellion and something that would be ideal to a mmoRPg, is the fact that you train each skill when using it, so that you only get exp for that certain skill, and beside that you can't see any lvls or any info on how good you are at it. It's all about observing which you would do in real life as well.

  • Master_RazorMaster_Razor Member Posts: 226

    Originally posted by Cephus404


    You don't have to eliminate experience, you just have to eliminate it's relationship to violence.  Killing things via PVP or PVE might get you stuff, but it shouldn't have anything to do with you levelling up.  Leave it in the hands of the players who gets experience and who doesn't based on their RP performance.  If a player thinks another player does something particularly noteworthy, they can anonymously give a certain number of XP.
    It's not a perfect system but it would eliminate all the PVP kiddies who want to level up as fast as possible without having to do anything but swing a sword.
     
    Let me just say this.

    I love role playing, it's one of my favorite things to do whether it be in a game, a forum, or in a messenger. However, I would not like to play a game where the game mechanics effected role play. I wouldn't want a game where I was penalized for not role playing or given karma points (or exp) for role playing well. If you remove experience completely, you eliminate a major grind and therefore, you eliminate the majority of the non-role players. Also, without having an honor or pvp ranking system, the "pvp kiddies" are going to leave as well.

    Personally I think that experience is completely unnecessary in a game that focuses on role play. I also think having penalties or rewards for role playing will ruin the game. This is coming from the perspective of someone who loves to role play, but this is also only my opinion and I know not everyone wants this.


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  • EchelonsEchelons Member Posts: 80

    I think there are two major points that have to be addressed.  One, if a game isn't fun for every type of player, whether they be PVP, PVE or RP oriented, then it will go under and be non-existant within the first year.  That's the one major flaw of an MMORPG, to survive and be playable for however long you as a player want to play it, other players have to enjoy it as well.

    That of course leads to the next point, the fact that you can't sacrifice other parts of a game to make another part of it "ultra-viable".  Fact of the matter is a game like World of Warcraft is just too watered down and attractive to the 13 year old, or the old married couple, its way too family friendly and easy - to have an established role playing community. 

    So it's not necessarily the game play that has to be different, but the demographic that's attracted to said game.  For instance, EQ2 has a small but more serious role playing community than World of Warcraft.  Suppose you're role playing in a public place and a non role player rolls by in EQ2 9 times out of 10 they will ignore it or take part into it on the rare occasions they feel antsy.  In WoW if this happens we all know that 9 out of 10 players will make a ridiculous comment and troll you.

    I think a developer can however, choose to make tweaks to certain expendable parts of a game that will contour to the playstyle of a role player.  One way is to make the way a player can play their character customizable.  Factions for one is a popular way to embed conflict into the mechanics of the game, which most games do.  However what a lot of these same games don't do is allow you to change between them.  For instance a Tauren can't decide to go to Alliance, which takes a whole slew of RP opprotunities out of the game.  But a Ogre can sure as heck put his allegiance with the queen in EQ2 and there's an opening for all sorts of interactions, back story modifications, etc.  Fact of the matter is the more customizable the entire experience you have during the span of the game you're playing the heavier a role player can weave himself into that world, with the inhabitants around him.  For instance the two top role playing experiences I've ever had in a role playing game took place in two games.  Shadowbane (god rest its soul) and Star Wars Galaxies before SOE decided to burn it to the ground with inadequacies and matches.   The reason is because within those world there were so many different things (a majority of which were player controlled) going on, that I could find a reason to role play almost constantly.  Within SWG I could sit for hours in the cantina on Tattooine and role play, then head out to a player made city and start an argument.  Start war with a guild and have gang wars that didn't require combat but vicious rhetoric.  Within Shadowbane, the free reign PVP system, and the ability create and siege entire player cities made the conflicts unlimited.  Factions were created by the players, not the developers, and that in itself made the possiblities for role play nearly unlimited. Sure the RP'ers have all but disappeared in those two games, but for a time they were popular enough to the non-RP'ers as well, that they survived for a time.  Both still alive today, even if they are in a decrepit state, suffering from virtual Alzheimer's as it forgets about its old players, and eventually its players forget about it.

    I have always thought that a players ability to customize their looks to a major extent was an under-rated feature.  One of those issues that seems to be at the bottom of a developers list.  And admittedly it should be, but who says you can't show it the proper amount of time once you get to it on that list?

    The point I'm trying to make is sure, it's the developers job to make their game accessible to all types of players.  And yes, many of the games out now seem to have forgotten the role players out there, instead focusing their game play on the PVE with a side of PVP.  But it's up to you as a role player to find a way to role play in the world they create, the developers can only make that harder or easier, they can never make it impossible.  Unfortunately, the longevity of a role playing demographic within a game is usually much shorter lived than a PVP or PVE community within the same game. 

    But that said there are a few things I think should be required in MMORPG's for our (the rp'ers) sake...

    -Either very dynamic player visual customization(Elder Scrolls), or a large number of race and class options (EQ2)

    -Surnames, how hard is it to give me the option to have a last name? Yeesh.

    -Either give us factions, or the freedom to create our own, its hard to role play without enemies, and even harder to role play when you can't fight said enemies.  I was forced to yell at my enemies in EQ2, this problem could have been remedied by giving guilds the ability to declare war on each other.  Granted this problem only applied to the religious zealots setting out to cleanse the queens population of the mud blooded :) rawr

    -Don't get lazy on the visuals, and I dont mean on the graphic quallity of the game.  I mean why does 90 percent of my leather look the same with a slightly different shade of green or brown?  Give every armor a different look, ever sword a different bend in the blade or art on the hilt.

    -Add places in a game that are clearly there for the role player.  Taverns that aren't filled with quest givers but with usable tables and chairs, music and even musical events.

    -If you have a RP server, set asside a few GM's that are there souly to stop non-RP or at least RP trolls from participating in the servers ongoings.

    Note that I agree, that post is too long.

     

  • cmgangrelcmgangrel Member UncommonPosts: 152

    Originally posted by Echelons
    -If you have a RP server, set asside a few GM's that are there souly to stop non-RP or at least RP trolls from participating in the servers ongoings.
    Note that I agree, that post is too long.
     
    I will jump down to this point as the rest are pretty good. Depending on how large the game world is, you could end up with more GM's moderating purely for roleplaying "quality" than for helping resolve player issues/tickets.

    Even inside CoH (which is a pretty small game world to be honest), even with 1GM per zone, you are looking at 15 or so GM's just for roleplaying "quality"... even then they could still miss the local chat just due to being out of range for it. And if they could read all the chat in a zone, then they are superhuman (especially if a zone gets hugely busy very fast)... maybe even not human.

    Granted in a fantasy setting it is indeed a bit easier to work out when somebody is "out of character" but in a present day setting, it gets much much harder.

    Also roleplaying concepts which fit the game world perfectly (say being a con artist like "Cut Me Throat Dibbler" from Discworld) COULD be very hard to portray with GM's (and infact the GM might end up missing the point)....

     

    Of course a way around this is to get your character "sanctioned" by the GM team, so they know what you are playing. BUT that is extremely time consuming. Idealy you would need 1GM per player (and the Gm would need to know the background to the character etc) to make sure that they are staying "in character".

    For me, "Unofficial" RP servers is better than "Official" RP servers (at least for present day/sci fi settings).

    But having said all of that, a good roleplayer makes do with the tools that they have been presented with and runs with it, and who also helps out new people.

    *note* as soon as a MMORPG allows me to play an acrobat with all the nuances of being an acrobat (ie improved balance/ flips, twirls and cartwheels that you can think of) then i will be impressed with it. Unlikely though to happen...

    I think that part of the limitation with implementing most of the previous (ie lots of character "look" creations) is the amount of bandwidth that the game can take uploading and downloading data as you leave/enter new zones.

    *sigh* who even needs anything beyond words to roleplay anyway? Having done a couple of systems that relied on just 1d6 and a lot of talking skills its impressive that roleplayers are wanting to be "limited" by other systems to make it more real for them (granted it could also be highly UNreal for another die hard roleplayer)

    Above is all my own opinion YMMV

  • Master_RazorMaster_Razor Member Posts: 226

    Well, I had typed out a nice, long thought out post, but Internet Explorer sucks, so it's gone.

    So here's the condensed version:

    Anything you can come up with to give people opportunities to role play will make a game more appealing to role players.

    Making players' actions matter to the storyline is a great idea for making the game more role player friendly.

    The more role play matters, the more people will do it.


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  • JK-KanosiJK-Kanosi Member Posts: 1,357

    Originally posted by Lilalu


    No the problem is, that nowadays the percentage of RPers is much smaller than those of non-Rpers. So if you try to regulate a server very strictly, but soon have about 80% Non-Rpers and only 20% Rpers (which would be much more than in an average MMO) on it, your system won´t work. Those 20% Rpers can report as much as possible, it won´t bother the 80% Non-Rpers.
    I know, because we tried once in an RP-project to have an RP only server. For about three days  the atmosphere was great. But then we simply were outnumbered by non-Rpers.
    The only way to have an RP-only game is to make the game unattractive for non-Rpers. As an Rper you still can have fun in such a game, because if there are no quests, Rpers invent their own stories. Non-Rpers won´t have fun that way.
    I am playing on an NWN2-RP-Server. We have a lot of fun there. There are some quests, but content is nothing at all in comparison to a big MMO. Nevertheless we have much more fun, than I ever had in any MMO - because of the people, the stories, the interactions. There is some fighting and PvP too. But it is a rare thing to happen. And we also have a jail, so it´s usually no fun to kill someone :D
     

    Well, I'm a die hard RPing fan and I wouldn't come within 100 ft of a RPing game without adventuring. A lot of people like to think of RP as acting. Well, we have all different sorts of movies. I am the type that is drawn to movies with adventure, heroism, combat, and science fiction stuff. It's not that I don't watch the other movies, because I do, I just would never want to act in a movie that isn't revolving around a conflict or adventure.

    So yes, you make the game uninteresting to non-rpers, but you also make it uninteresting to a lot of RPers too. I am willing to bet that it would be uninteresting to the majority of RPers actually. Look at Second Life or the SIMS as your proof. Those are games where you can recreate your life and the games aren't based around combat. Those games didn't turn out to be anymore RPing friendly than the combat oriented games. In fact, the RPers chose to play WoW and other major MMORPGs.

    MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW

    Currently Playing: WAR
    Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.

  • LilaluLilalu Member Posts: 68

    No, I take Neverwinter Nights 2 RP-Servers as an example. Neither Second Life nor the Sims have anything only near a backround story and a game world, which makes sense.

    There are many adventures going on, on our NWN2 Server. It´s just that they are not implemented into the game by constantly repeating game mechanics and don´t involve slaying hundreds of monsters all the time. Adventures are invented by the players themselfs. They sometimes involve slaying a monster, but also many other activities, which can become very funny and exciting.  E.g. auctions (not like in the WoW-auction houses, but really role-played ones), a trial against a murderer, hunting a thief ...

    I also do want adventures. Even fighting is o.k. with me (as long as it makes sense in a role-played story). But I say, there should be no adventures, without the players own activities. Don´t just give them "quests", which are reapeted by tousands of players (and enjoyed much by the non-rpers), but give them the tools and freedom to change the world by their own imagination.

    No imagination, no partizipation, no fun.

    Most Rpers I have met, have a lot of imagination and love to work in a team with the community. I would´nt worry for the game to be boring.

     

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Member CommonPosts: 3,675
    Originally posted by Master_Razor 
     
    I love role playing, it's one of my favorite things to do whether it be in a game, a forum, or in a messenger. However, I would not like to play a game where the game mechanics effected role play. I wouldn't want a game where I was penalized for not role playing or given karma points (or exp) for role playing well. If you remove experience completely, you eliminate a major grind and therefore, you eliminate the majority of the non-role players. Also, without having an honor or pvp ranking system, the "pvp kiddies" are going to leave as well.

    Well, yes and no.  I sat down last night and played EVE-Online for a couple of hours and it breaks your mold right away.  There is no experience, there are no levels, yet the entire game is virtually all PvP.  I came to the conclusion within a couple of hours that it wasn't a game I was interested in playing, period.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • EchelonsEchelons Member Posts: 80

    Originally posted by cmgangrel


     
    Originally posted by Echelons
    -If you have a RP server, set asside a few GM's that are there souly to stop non-RP or at least RP trolls from participating in the servers ongoings.
    Note that I agree, that post is too long.
     
    I will jump down to this point as the rest are pretty good. Depending on how large the game world is, you could end up with more GM's moderating purely for roleplaying "quality" than for helping resolve player issues/tickets.

     

    Even inside CoH (which is a pretty small game world to be honest), even with 1GM per zone, you are looking at 15 or so GM's just for roleplaying "quality"... even then they could still miss the local chat just due to being out of range for it. And if they could read all the chat in a zone, then they are superhuman (especially if a zone gets hugely busy very fast)... maybe even not human.

    Granted in a fantasy setting it is indeed a bit easier to work out when somebody is "out of character" but in a present day setting, it gets much much harder.

    Also roleplaying concepts which fit the game world perfectly (say being a con artist like "Cut Me Throat Dibbler" from Discworld) COULD be very hard to portray with GM's (and infact the GM might end up missing the point)....

     


    Well what I was saying was based on a ticket system, submitted by RP'ers.  Like in any game, the GM's should be able to pull records of chat, to see if there is any real substance to a player's claim.  Even if you only have 2 GM's dedicated to this job, the job still gets done, even if it takes a little longer.  Odds are the amount of tickets put in for that reason would be substantially less than other problems players are having.  In fact I think a lot of the complaints would be the same things players complain about today, with verbal abuse and other forms of in game trolling.  I think the bigger issue solved was making the RP'ers feel more important in that game because of the RP GM's existence, and in turn it would attract other RP'ers to the game, as well as intrigue the non-RP'ers into perhaps turning into an RP'er.

     

    Most of the people I know come to RP servers not to RP, but because there is a more mature demographic playing there, so essentially they move there to get away from the proverbial noobs.  So if that's the general feeling behind RP servers my guess is that the problems a GM on such a server faces is a lot less intense than on a PVE or PVP server.

  • LilaluLilalu Member Posts: 68

    I know, there are many RPers, who want a lot of action-PvP and/ or masses of quests within an exciting linear story-line implemented into the game (like e.g. Lord of the Rings online) or experience points gained by fighting. I think, that´s o.k. I don´t like to discuss, which one is the better RP or such stupid things. In my opinion everything is o.k. as long as people have fun doing it. Playing games is our hobby and spare time. It should be fun!

    I just don´t believe it will ever be possible to install real RP-servers in an average MMO. Who wants PvP and/or quests, and/or experience points will have to share the servers with non-rpers.

    That´s because of democrafic reasons. Nowadays most people have a fast internet-access and millions want to play MMOs. It´s not just the "educational elite" (like e.g. students and IT-experts) any more, who has internet access. And most people in the world just are not interested in RP. The few RPers, who are playing are not of any interest to the big MMO-Companies. At least those companies won´t risk to annoy the big "normal" part of their players by banning them from an RP-Server, if they want to be there (for what reason ever). Rather they annoy the small part of RPers and hope they will stay anyway, because they also like the quests and the rest of the stuff.

    But I think there are RPers like me to. For me an overall RP-atmosphere is much more important then pre-installed linear quests. In fact I think those are not very good for RP, because every player kills the same monster several times. This doesn´t make any sense in my eyes.

    I would never play an average MMO. I miss all the things there, which are fun to me. Most of all I miss other people responding to RP (e.g. allow themselfs to be arrested) and the possibility to have real impact on the game world (e.g. become a city major and other players respect you for this. In a game with pre-installed quests, the world is static, no matter what the players do and how often the end boss has been killed before.

    Those small part of players could be interesting for a small MMO developed by a small company (maybe like Adellion). I guess 50 000 players from all over the world are possible to get. Just look at the many many text based games still out there. I am sure mostly because their players are not interested in an average MMO. And there are MMOs out there and running with 50 000 or even less players. So it must be possible to run the game with such a player base. It´s just not a number in which the big companies are interested.

    It would not be the grafically most advanced game with the most interesting fighting system. That´s financially not possible for a small MMO. But it would have an overall RP-atmosphere.

    At this point I think Rpers would have to make their own choice. Either stay in the average game, where you get all the technically most advanced features, exciting fighting and everything. But you will have to share this game (and also the Rp-server - I am sure of that) with a majority of non-rpers. Or go to the RP-game, get a nice atmosphere, but not the standards of one of the big MMOs.

    I am sure many Rpers will decide to stay with WOW or whatever game. But I also think, enough RPers would want to play the RP-game.

     

     

     

     

  • JK-KanosiJK-Kanosi Member Posts: 1,357

    Originally posted by Lilalu


    I know, there are many RPers, who want a lot of action-PvP and/ or masses of quests within an exciting linear story-line implemented into the game (like e.g. Lord of the Rings online) or experience points gained by fighting. I think, that´s o.k. I don´t like to discuss, which one is the better RP or such stupid things. In my opinion everything is o.k. as long as people have fun doing it. Playing games is our hobby and spare time. It should be fun!
    I just don´t believe it will ever be possible to install real RP-servers in an average MMO. Who wants PvP and/or quests, and/or experience points will have to share the servers with non-rpers.
    That´s because of democrafic reasons. Nowadays most people have a fast internet-access and millions want to play MMOs. It´s not just the "educational elite" (like e.g. students and IT-experts) any more, who has internet access. And most people in the world just are not interested in RP. The few RPers, who are playing are not of any interest to the big MMO-Companies. At least those companies won´t risk to annoy the big "normal" part of their players by banning them from an RP-Server, if they want to be there (for what reason ever). Rather they annoy the small part of RPers and hope they will stay anyway, because they also like the quests and the rest of the stuff.
    But I think there are RPers like me to. For me an overall RP-atmosphere is much more important then pre-installed linear quests. In fact I think those are not very good for RP, because every player kills the same monster several times. This doesn´t make any sense in my eyes.
    I would never play an average MMO. I miss all the things there, which are fun to me. Most of all I miss other people responding to RP (e.g. allow themselfs to be arrested) and the possibility to have real impact on the game world (e.g. become a city major and other players respect you for this. In a game with pre-installed quests, the world is static, no matter what the players do and how often the end boss has been killed before.
    Those small part of players could be interesting for a small MMO developed by a small company (maybe like Adellion). I guess 50 000 players from all over the world are possible to get. Just look at the many many text based games still out there. I am sure mostly because their players are not interested in an average MMO. And there are MMOs out there and running with 50 000 or even less players. So it must be possible to run the game with such a player base. It´s just not a number in which the big companies are interested.
    It would not be the grafically most advanced game with the most interesting fighting system. That´s financially not possible for a small MMO. But it would have an overall RP-atmosphere.
    At this point I think Rpers would have to make their own choice. Either stay in the average game, where you get all the technically most advanced features, exciting fighting and everything. But you will have to share this game (and also the Rp-server - I am sure of that) with a majority of non-rpers. Or go to the RP-game, get a nice atmosphere, but not the standards of one of the big MMOs.
    I am sure many Rpers will decide to stay with WOW or whatever game. But I also think, enough RPers would want to play the RP-game.
     
     
     
     

    I don't want a linear quest line or a static atmosphere either. I want a MMORPG that is condusive to RP. A MMORPG like that must have no artificial barriers or rules to "keep people inline." That is why I am attracted to Darkfall so much. That is why a lot of RPers are attracted to Darkfall, actually. We want an environment where we can be whatever we want, whether that is a farmer, merchant, crafter, soldier, mercenary, tyrant, King or entertainer.

    In a MMORPG with no boundaries, you are free to be whatever you want and can build a nation if you have the intelligence and leadership ability to do so. You could build a corporate empire or be a famous entertainer. However, with that ability also comes conflict, because one person may not want the same thing as another person. Resources are always limited, so you have nations fighting over those resources or making trade agreements. That's what happens in a MMORPG that caters to RPers. To me, that is real roleplaying. You have people playing roles in world where the sky is the limit. That's what Darkfall is to many of us Rpers. We cannot wait to build a government and society and keep it running through thick and thin. Through peace times and war times.

    Quests in a game like that are player created...as they should be in all MMORPGs. When I spoke of adventure, I didn't mean doing these prebuilt quests that anyone and everyone will do. I mean creating my own content. For example, if I choose to be a free lance warrior type, I might slay the local goblin population that is making it hard for the player crafters to get their resources. I could do this for a fee, making me a mercenary or I could do it for free and become a hero. Players will talk about me if I did something like that for free for the people. I would gain a reputation for doing heroic and honorable deeds for the service of the player community and that would be my adventure, because I would do it not only in that one city, but I would also do it in all cities as I travel the world.

    The point is that as a Rper, I want to do things I cannot do in real life. I do not want to live an alternate life that I can already live in real life now. In real life I have actually traveled the world, been in 1 war, experienced many cultures, sailed the high seas, and even became a martial artist. Why on Earth would I pay to play a game where I can only talk with other people in a graphical environment? No, I want to adventure in a game as well, just like I do in real life. I do not want to settle down in an in-game city and live a boring life. Oh, and I think perma-death is a necessity to maximize RP. Without perma-death, everyone would be an adventurer, because there will be no fear of dying. In a perma-death game, someone may never become good enough to slay the dragon that makes sense to be really hard to kill.

    MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW

    Currently Playing: WAR
    Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.

  • LilaluLilalu Member Posts: 68

    Sorry, but Darkfall will be a hardcore PvP game. I know some Rpers have hopes in this game. If you don´t mind sharing a server with a majority of people, who speak only in shooter-short talk and numbers, you will have fun there.

    I admit the features of this game sounded attractive to me also at first glace. But the features are only a very small part of the fun. The most important factor for my decision is the community. And this will not consist of roleplayers. The majority just wants PvP and nothing else.

    Have fun, if you like this. I will never play this game. I will stay with NWN2 until there is an MMO once, in which you don´t have to look for hours until you meet another roleplayer. If we never get this MMO, I will stay with NWN2. It´s the best alternative. And by far better than any MMO with roleplaying.

     

     

  • JK-KanosiJK-Kanosi Member Posts: 1,357

    Originally posted by Lilalu


    Sorry, but Darkfall will be a hardcore PvP game. I know some Rpers have hopes in this game. If you don´t mind sharing a server with a majority of people, who speak only in shooter-short talk and numbers, you will have fun there.
    I admit the features of this game sounded attractive to me also at first glace. But the features are only a very small part of the fun. The most important factor for my decision is the community. And this will not consist of roleplayers. The majority just wants PvP and nothing else.
    Have fun, if you like this. I will never play this game. I will stay with NWN2 until there is an MMO once, in which you don´t have to look for hours until you meet another roleplayer. If we never get this MMO, I will stay with NWN2. It´s the best alternative. And by far better than any MMO with roleplaying.
     
     
    If you use this website as a reference, I can see how you can think that Darkfal will mostly appeal to FFA PvPers, but there are large guilds that have formed with RPing in mind. Who cares what the rest of the server is doing when the people I interact with mostly RP.

    That is what I don't get with you. You are so concerned about what others are doing around you that it is affecting the enjoyment of your game. I agree that leet speak and short hand type is annoying and breaks RP. But most of that happens in General Chat, which can be turned off. Besides, someone in character will have General chat turned off anyways, since it is unrealistic to be able to hear conversations all over the world. You will only be able to hear conversations happening around you. If you concentrate on playing with like-minded people, the nonsense has a way of disappearing around you.

    I've played MMORPGs for over 6 years now and I've went through many stages, especially after WoW was released. Before WoW, people were generally mature and RPing was easy as everyone liked to be in-character...so to speak. After WoW introduced MMORPGs to mainstream society, RPers and the mature players were kind of forced to exit out the back door or adapt. I fought tooth and nail for 2 years to create a mature environment to play in. I argued with the immature and disrespectful on general chat and tried to reason with others to be mature and considerate of others. I obviously lost that battle. I realized after those 2 yrs that the genre changed and there was nothing I could do about it. I realized that instead of trying to change other people, I should direct my efforts to pulling the RPing community together in a game and playing with them, while ignoring everyone else. You see, it is an attitude and state of mind you have to evolve to in order to enjoy MMORPGs the same way you did when RPing was a huge thing in MMORPGs.

    I have evolved and watch people like you who are still going through that evolution process. Maybe you will never become tolerant and able to ignore, but if you do, you will see that there isn't much that a developer hasn't already done that can be done to increase others likely-hood to RP. All you can hope for is a game whose mechanics promote RP and that other RPers will hear your call to congregate with each other.

    There is one thing that is constant. A mature intelligent person can always make an immature inconsiderate person feel stupid to the point where they shut up. If you want a mature environment, you and others have to fight for it or ignore the immature community. In Darkfall, it will be up to the mature people to secure a foot hold in the game and shut down any immaturity, which is possible contrary to your opinion of what Darkfall will be like. However, it is probably that the immature will find their place in every game, including Darkfall, but the key is finding like-minded people to play with. It doesn't matter what others are doing anyways. I think concentrating on what others are doing is childish, sort of like "well he is doing it, why can't we?" or "You think I am bad, look at what they are doing."

    MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW

    Currently Playing: WAR
    Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.

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