Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Did Nancy Macintyre, Hive-Queen of the NGE, accidentally reveal the launch date of the Bioware MMO..

While doing a little research on Nancy Macintyre, the Lucas Arts director who had executive responsibility for the NGE in 2005, I found this interesting quiote

In a 2006 interview with Next Generation's Colin Campbell, LucasArts VP Nancy MacIntyre mapped out her company's plans to continue delivering Star Wars to the market.

"Our fans want a logical progression of the Star Wars story line, so we are committed to only two Star Wars experiences a year," says MacIntyre. We've also got Star Wars franchises like Knights of the Old Republic ... that we will not leave behind. It's very important to us that we grow those franchises."

"We typically work on these games about eighteen months out. We really treat these games like they are a theatrical release from the perspective of mapping everything out. We know that we need to be out there talking early and often and so you will see us handling the basic things like [fan] websites, but we'll also do web-docs and developer diaries and behind the scenes and all the kinds of information that these core fans really want to know."

We know that Bioware (the original poublished of KOTOR) and LA announced in late 2007 that they have been involved in a joint interactive online project for two years already.

Hmmm, eighteen months from November 2006 - the time of the interview - would take us to May 2008...?

Well, it's only speculation. And, thank god, because Ms. Macintyre has left LA and gone to Leapfrog, her fingerprints and their toxic epithelials won't be over the new LA/Bioware MMORPG.

«1

Comments

  • iwantmyswgiwantmyswg Member Posts: 301

    if that mmorpg isn't pre-cu then it will suffer just like swg is.

  • Moaky07Moaky07 Member Posts: 2,096

    Originally posted by iwantmyswg


    if that mmorpg isn't pre-cu then it will suffer just like swg is.

     

    I beg to differ.....If that game is Pre CU it will suffer.  EQ is the greatest MMO ever made IMO, and it was a shame SWG wasnt EQ in space. Would of been more successfull....they could of spent their time doing expansions vs trying to juggle 32 prof. Not to even mention making a game revolve around docs/dancers/trades.

    I understand it gave folks interaction...like boat rides used to do in EQ. But lets face it, when they gave instant travel folks didnt miss running thru karanas. Some will look back with rose glasses, but folks in this day and age wanna play...not pretend travel.

    EQ hit the nail just right IMO. Although nowadays it isnt very noob friendly, and definitely raid oriented. If a game was launched very similar to EQ, but toned down on the raid part I think it could be successfull. Lots of content is the key. In some ways I wish they would update everything in game....and go more with a EQ2ish engine so more folks could have the option to solo when needed.

    EQ has the grping part down right....bonus for grping. Encourage folks to grp. If the content was more 1 or 2 grp concentrated, I think it could be a huge hit.

    Folks want some challenge...but when you go too far you push em away. I know after a couple of days I couldnt stand CU. The having to pay huge money to train skills to advance, or trying to find someone to train ya turned me off to it. When a new player, I always am wary of "vets". SWG was no different...someone tried to scam me on my barc first day.  So as I tried to make money to lvl up, I got to listen to folks recursive macro their dancer in ME.  A game that allows botting, and not noob friendly...I quit right then.

    I know some folks think things were great, and wanna see em repeated. I am like a lot of others though. SWG didnt appeal to me the first time, and if they pull the same chit I wont play it this time either.

    Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.

  • hubertgrovehubertgrove Member Posts: 1,141
    Originally posted by Moaky07


     
    Originally posted by iwantmyswg


    if that mmorpg isn't pre-cu then it will suffer just like swg is.

     

     

    I beg to differ.....If that game is Pre CU it will suffer.  EQ is the greatest MMO ever made IMO, and it was a shame SWG wasnt EQ in space. Would of been more successfull....they could of spent their time doing expansions vs trying to juggle 32 prof. Not to even mention making a game revolve around docs/dancers/trades.

    I understand it gave folks interaction...like boat rides used to do in EQ. But lets face it, when they gave instant travel folks didnt miss running thru karanas. Some will look back with rose glasses, but folks in this day and age wanna play...not pretend travel.

    EQ hit the nail just right IMO. Although nowadays it isnt very noob friendly, and definitely raid oriented. If a game was launched very similar to EQ, but toned down on the raid part I think it could be successfull. Lots of content is the key. In some ways I wish they would update everything in game....and go more with a EQ2ish engine so more folks could have the option to solo when needed.

    EQ has the grping part down right....bonus for grping. Encourage folks to grp. If the content was more 1 or 2 grp concentrated, I think it could be a huge hit.

    Folks want some challenge...but when you go too far you push em away. I know after a couple of days I couldnt stand CU. The having to pay huge money to train skills to advance, or trying to find someone to train ya turned me off to it. When a new player, I always am wary of "vets". SWG was no different...someone tried to scam me on my barc first day.  So as I tried to make money to lvl up, I got to listen to folks recursive macro their dancer in ME.  A game that allows botting, and not noob friendly...I quit right then.

    I know some folks think things were great, and wanna see em repeated. I am like a lot of others though. SWG didnt appeal to me the first time, and if they pull the same chit I wont play it this time either.

     Considering that you want more groups, more instant travel and less professions then I guess Sandbox-type games may be a little too challenging for you. I think you would probably be happier in World of Warcraft,.

  • Moaky07Moaky07 Member Posts: 2,096

    Um Skippy

     

    Since when did EQ = WoW?

     

    I quit WoW 2 weeks after launch...long before it became a leet playground.

     

    Even with modifying EQ, that in no way translates to "I wanna play WoW der". In EQ your Rep meant everything, none of that a/s/l BS. You for some reason have maturity = SWG. Where as I equate SWG Pre whatever with being akin to watching grass grow.

    EQ in space would of broke 750k subs.

    Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.

  • VrazuleVrazule Member Posts: 1,095

    I want more WoW style games out on the market and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.  I'd be very excited to hear of a WoW space clone.  The original SWG was a flop because it was too hardcore and it's still too hardcore despite the major changes.  That is why it was never a big hit and why it remains a mediocre game.  So far, only casual games have been the big hits in the USA.

    With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal

  • BaselineBaseline Member Posts: 503

     

    Originally posted by Vrazule


    I want more WoW style games out on the market and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.  I'd be very excited to hear of a WoW space clone.  The original SWG was a flop because it was too hardcore and it's still too hardcore despite the major changes.  That is why it was never a big hit and why it remains a mediocre game.  So far, only casual games have been the big hits in the USA.

     

    Yeah? Well there's plenty of MMO's out there that will hold your hand nowadays, just like WoW. Infact most all of them do except EvE.

    Some people liked that sandbox, feeling of accomplishment because you did something instead of clicking next and killing 10 monsters rinse/repeat kind of game.

    Variety is good in life, no?

  • Moaky07Moaky07 Member Posts: 2,096

    Originally posted by Baseline


     
    Originally posted by Vrazule


    I want more WoW style games out on the market and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.  I'd be very excited to hear of a WoW space clone.  The original SWG was a flop because it was too hardcore and it's still too hardcore despite the major changes.  That is why it was never a big hit and why it remains a mediocre game.  So far, only casual games have been the big hits in the USA.

     

    Yeah? Well there's plenty of MMO's out there that will hold your hand nowadays, just like WoW. Infact most all of them do except EvE.

    Some people liked that sandbox, feeling of accomplishment because you did something instead of clicking next and killing 10 monsters rinse/repeat kind of game.

    Variety is good in life, no?

     

    I agree Baseline....cept when the IP is one of the most popular in the world.

     

    IMO WoW = Too easy/simplistic.....SWG = Sims online

    Like previously stated, EQ had it about right...just a bit of tuning needed.

    Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.

  • FikusOfAhaziFikusOfAhazi Member Posts: 1,835
    Originally posted by Moaky07


     
    Originally posted by Baseline


     
    Originally posted by Vrazule


    I want more WoW style games out on the market and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.  I'd be very excited to hear of a WoW space clone.  The original SWG was a flop because it was too hardcore and it's still too hardcore despite the major changes.  That is why it was never a big hit and why it remains a mediocre game.  So far, only casual games have been the big hits in the USA.

     

    Yeah? Well there's plenty of MMO's out there that will hold your hand nowadays, just like WoW. Infact most all of them do except EvE.

    Some people liked that sandbox, feeling of accomplishment because you did something instead of clicking next and killing 10 monsters rinse/repeat kind of game.

    Variety is good in life, no?

     

     

    I agree Baseline....cept when the IP is one of the most popular in the world.

     

    IMO WoW = Too easy/simplistic.....SWG = Sims online

    Like previously stated, EQ had it about right...just a bit of tuning needed.

    SWG was supposed to be UO mixed with eq. They ran out of time before they got the uo part finished and never got around to the eq part. People should judge swg on its original concept not what it was at launch or what it became before they say it should have never been allowed the use of the sw IP. They are 2 very differnert things. The concept originally is usually exactly what people are asking for.

    See you in the dream..
    The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.

  • War_DancerWar_Dancer Member Posts: 941

     

    Originally posted by Moaky07


     
    Originally posted by iwantmyswg


    if that mmorpg isn't pre-cu then it will suffer just like swg is.

     

     

    I beg to differ.....If that game is Pre CU it will suffer.  EQ is the greatest MMO ever made IMO, and it was a shame SWG wasnt EQ in space. Would of been more successfull....they could of spent their time doing expansions vs trying to juggle 32 prof. Not to even mention making a game revolve around docs/dancers/trades.

     

    I'll beg to differ with you as well

    I'll agree that a new SW MMO not being preCU doesn't mean it will automaticaly fail. I might not play it but as long as it's better quality then the NGE and sticks to it's guns about what style of game it is instead of constantly changing the core design then it could do well.

    One thing for certain though is I hated EQ1 and trying to copy how that worked would gurantee I wouldn't play. I found the gameplay boring and repatative siting in one place with a puller bringing stuff back to you for hours and I hated those expansions, they made old equipement and zones obsalete with the new zones that were better xp and the new equipment that was much better ... that's not adding to the game, it's replacing existing content. Even when I played zones like the low level dungeon north of the dark elf city nearly never had anyone go there, and the moon expansion just made that worse. Personaly I don't think EQ1 with it's long grinds and timesinks would do as well now in the bigger MMO world where players have more choice of games to play.

  • VrazuleVrazule Member Posts: 1,095

    In most cases, variety would be the spice of life, but where MMO's are concerned, they can and are the spice of death.  These monsters have become so expensive to make, most investors are not going to be content with original EQ level of success.  Anything short of 500,000 subs is not going to make enough money to justify the original investment.  Unless they make it low budget, you're not going to see many more if any hardcore MMO's in the near future.  The only exceptions would be hardcore games that hit it big in Asia, then they could probably care less how popular it is in the USA.

    With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal

  • teddy_bareteddy_bare Member UncommonPosts: 398

     

     

    Originally posted by Vrazule


    In most cases, variety would be the spice of life, but where MMO's are concerned, they can and are the spice of death.  These monsters have become so expensive to make, most investors are not going to be content with original EQ level of success.  Anything short of 500,000 subs is not going to make enough money to justify the original investment.  Unless they make it low budget, you're not going to see many more if any hardcore MMO's in the near future.  The only exceptions would be hardcore games that hit it big in Asia, then they could probably care less how popular it is in the USA.

    I have to, sadly, agree with this statement.

    In the months right before, and right after WoW and EQ2 were released the MMO-genre was in it's heyday. There were quite a few big-name, big-money backed MMOs in development , games like UXO, Mythica, Vanguard etc and many of them were cancelled after WoW was released b/c the market shifted, DRASTICALLY.

    Now, in the post-WoW MMO market, I don't think we're going to be seeing many more big-name, top-quality MMO's being made. Especially after what happened w/ Vanguard, and then the whole Perpetual debacle, I just don't think there are many investors out there that are going to be willing to financially back the kind of MMOs that MMO-veterans want to play. With WoW eating up such a huge market share, and the mismanagement and other problems we've seen, it just looks like too large of a risk to throw alot of money behind a top tier MMO.

    I truly think that the Western MMO market is in trouble. For example, what "AAA" MMO titles do we have in development right now? We have WAR, AoC, and the Bioware project, that's it. The nature of these games are such that a gamer usually plays one, and there is no room for anything else and the investors and publishers have seen this and will be loathe to put their money in anything they think "breaks the mold" or a dev house that is looking to "take a chance" on something new.

    I guess what I'm saying is, that fans of Western MMOs, our choices are limited and shrink even more as time goes on. All we can really hope for is that one of the games coming down the pipe will satiate our hunger and be what we are looking for. Games like pre-CU SWG just aren't going to be made anymore b/c of the state of the market.

    I mean, after all, there was a reason that they made such huge, sweeping changes to SWG...the game wasn't bringing in the kind of revenue that LA was looking for and so they made the call to make the changes and shot themselves in the foot. But they obviously thought that the game, as it was, wasn't successful or the changes wouldn't have been made.

    No.....I'm sorry all you pre-CU/NGE fans, if it wasn't successful enough then, do you really think they are going to make another game just like it to recapture the audience they lost that wasn't big enough in the first place?

  • FikusOfAhaziFikusOfAhazi Member Posts: 1,835
    Originally posted by Vrazule


    In most cases, variety would be the spice of life, but where MMO's are concerned, they can and are the spice of death.  These monsters have become so expensive to make, most investors are not going to be content with original EQ level of success.  Anything short of 500,000 subs is not going to make enough money to justify the original investment.  Unless they make it low budget, you're not going to see many more if any hardcore MMO's in the near future.  The only exceptions would be hardcore games that hit it big in Asia, then they could probably care less how popular it is in the USA.



    There is no linear eq wow clone that will hit 500k either. Not subscription based anyway. And theres no such thing as a hardcore game IMO. There is games with different rules. If they're fun people will play them reguardless of how complex or long it takes as long as thier pc will run it. Hardcore is a marketing gimmick.

    See you in the dream..
    The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.

  • musicmannmusicmann Member UncommonPosts: 1,095

    Honestly, do you really think Bioware/LA would create another SW MMO in the same vain as what SWG is right now. It's no secret that alot of SWG origional devs went to work for Bioware Austin. It's also not a big stretch that alot of folks love sandbox type games, like EVE and SWG. Yes, WOW has over 9 mill subs, but 3/4 of them are in china, making the sub count from the US and EU only around 2.5 mill.

    I can honestly see a new SW mmo that is using the same model that SWG had in it's beginning with profession based content  being a huge success. Let's all remember, that SWG started to go downhill when SOE changed the game with the CU. People got tired of the lack of maintence and bug issues that weren't getting fixed on a regular basis, especially when they could play a game that was polished as WOW is. SOE killed the game not the game itself. 

    The only thing i truly see that was a minor problem was the devs letting everyone know how to get jedi and the whole giving away of the holo's. If they would have left their own unlocking jedi mechanism alone and let it progress naturally, it would have worked.

    I just hope that if Bioware's MMO is a SW one, that they make it truly feel like you are in the SW universe. That was the only big problem that SWG had. Even though the majority who played pre-cu loved being the uncle owens of the galaxy, me included, the galaxy never really felt like it was in the SW world.

    Another big killer for the game was the time period they set SWG in. I found that  time period to be to constraining in an MMO. Jedi makes a big part of the SW lore, and people want to play them. Placing the time between ANH and ESB, was to confining and bringing in jedi made it even less canon.

    If they would have made the game be between EP3 and ANH, it would have solved alot of RP conflicts that we all know arose. The few things i laid out as problems had nothing to do with the core mechanics of the game just bad ideas from the devs. The gameplay was solid and you couldn't find a game with better animations, crafting or community.

  • DarthRaidenDarthRaiden Member UncommonPosts: 4,333

     

    Originally posted by teddyboy420



    No.....I'm sorry all you pre-CU/NGE fans, if it wasn't successful enough then, do you really think they are going to make another game just like it to recapture the audience they lost that wasn't big enough in the first place?

     

    Now that they changed to more WoW-ish playstyle

    classes-level-raid-loot crap since 2,5 years SWG has an hell of amazing success and dragged millions of people to subscribe.  Risking to  loose so many billions of  profit cash would be wrong of course.

    tho you right about the pre cu modell is a niche model for dedicated MMO gamer wouldn't also drag in millions of subscriber but for a single million could begood enough ;)

    -----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
    $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
    -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!

    "There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)

  • FikusOfAhaziFikusOfAhazi Member Posts: 1,835
    Originally posted by teddyboy420


     
     
    Originally posted by Vrazule


    In most cases, variety would be the spice of life, but where MMO's are concerned, they can and are the spice of death.  These monsters have become so expensive to make, most investors are not going to be content with original EQ level of success.  Anything short of 500,000 subs is not going to make enough money to justify the original investment.  Unless they make it low budget, you're not going to see many more if any hardcore MMO's in the near future.  The only exceptions would be hardcore games that hit it big in Asia, then they could probably care less how popular it is in the USA.

    I have to, sadly, agree with this statement.

    In the months right before, and right after WoW and EQ2 were released the MMO-genre was in it's heyday. There were quite a few big-name, big-money backed MMOs in development , games like UXO, Mythica, Vanguard etc and many of them were cancelled after WoW was released b/c the market shifted, DRASTICALLY.

    Now, in the post-WoW MMO market, I don't think we're going to be seeing many more big-name, top-quality MMO's being made. Especially after what happened w/ Vanguard, and then the whole Perpetual debacle, I just don't think there are many investors out there that are going to be willing to financially back the kind of MMOs that MMO-veterans want to play. With WoW eating up such a huge market share, and the mismanagement and other problems we've seen, it just looks like too large of a risk to throw alot of money behind a top tier MMO.

    I truly think that the Western MMO market is in trouble. For example, what "AAA" MMO titles do we have in development right now? We have WAR, AoC, and the Bioware project, that's it. The nature of these games are such that a gamer usually plays one, and there is no room for anything else and the investors and publishers have seen this and will be loathe to put their money in anything they think "breaks the mold" or a dev house that is looking to "take a chance" on something new.

    I guess what I'm saying is, that fans of Western MMOs, our choices are limited and shrink even more as time goes on. All we can really hope for is that one of the games coming down the pipe will satiate our hunger and be what we are looking for. Games like pre-CU SWG just aren't going to be made anymore b/c of the state of the market.

    I mean, after all, there was a reason that they made such huge, sweeping changes to SWG...the game wasn't bringing in the kind of revenue that LA was looking for and so they made the call to make the changes and shot themselves in the foot. But they obviously thought that the game, as it was, wasn't successful or the changes wouldn't have been made.

    No.....I'm sorry all you pre-CU/NGE fans, if it wasn't successful enough then, do you really think they are going to make another game just like it to recapture the audience they lost that wasn't big enough in the first place?

    Thats the only audience there is for a sw mmo. There arent billions of people wanting a mmo in the sw universe. Make a game for the sw fans youll get 300k subs. Make a sw mmo for the masses, youll get less. The nge has proven that. granted, bioware could make a KOTOR mmo and the fans of that and they could do a little better, but no SW mmo will have millions of subs.

    See you in the dream..
    The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.

  • AntariousAntarious Member UncommonPosts: 2,791

    Originally posted by DarthRaiden


     
    Originally posted by teddyboy420



    No.....I'm sorry all you pre-CU/NGE fans, if it wasn't successful enough then, do you really think they are going to make another game just like it to recapture the audience they lost that wasn't big enough in the first place?

     

    Now that they changed to more WoW-ish playstyle

    classes-level-raid-loot crap since 2,5 years SWG has an hell of amazing success and dragged millions of people to subscribe.  Risking to  loose so many billions of  profit cash would be wrong of course.

    tho you right about the pre cu modell is a niche model for dedicated MMO gamer wouldn't also drag in millions of subscriber but for a single million could begood enough ;)


    Yes and..

    Prior to the launch of WoW SWG was in the number 2 position (behind EQ) for highest subscriber total of a North American based MMO.

    Exactly how many North American based MMO's have beat the peak population of SWG... oh that's right.. EQ1 and WoW.

    So it was obviously a failure.  SWG was considered to be a failure once WoW became "epic".  If WoW had just had the standard MMO population.. then SWG would have been considered a success.

    You can't say that just because a Movie or a book series was a hit.. its going to draw a huge MMO crowd.

    Lucas Arts hasn't exactly had a totally steller record in translating Star Wars to video game.  Yes they have had some great success.  However, they have had many dismal failures (mostly the RTS based ones).

    I think after they saw the crowds that WoW had.. the assumption was made that an IP like Star Wars should have more.

    I'm not sure how when previous to WoW 450,000 subs was considered fantastic.

    SWG had 300,000'ish... I'm not sure how that's exactly a failure.

    Again.. How many US based MMO's have had more population?  compared to how many that had less..

    I don't mind if people didn't like the game (its their right).  I just think it would be nice to apply at least some logic in statements.

  • hubertgrovehubertgrove Member Posts: 1,141

     

    Originally posted by teddyboy420


     
     
    I have to, sadly, agree with this statement.
    In the months right before, and right after WoW and EQ2 were released the MMO-genre was in it's heyday. There were quite a few big-name, big-money backed MMOs in development , games like UXO, Mythica, Vanguard etc and many of them were cancelled after WoW was released b/c the market shifted, DRASTICALLY.
    Now, in the post-WoW MMO market, I don't think we're going to be seeing many more big-name, top-quality MMO's being made. Especially after what happened w/ Vanguard, and then the whole Perpetual debacle, I just don't think there are many investors out there that are going to be willing to financially back the kind of MMOs that MMO-veterans want to play. With WoW eating up such a huge market share, and the mismanagement and other problems we've seen, it just looks like too large of a risk to throw alot of money behind a top tier MMO.
    I truly think that the Western MMO market is in trouble. For example, what "AAA" MMO titles do we have in development right now? We have WAR, AoC, and the Bioware project, that's it. The nature of these games are such that a gamer usually plays one, and there is no room for anything else and the investors and publishers have seen this and will be loathe to put their money in anything they think "breaks the mold" or a dev house that is looking to "take a chance" on something new.
    I guess what I'm saying is, that fans of Western MMOs, our choices are limited and shrink even more as time goes on. All we can really hope for is that one of the games coming down the pipe will satiate our hunger and be what we are looking for. Games like pre-CU SWG just aren't going to be made anymore b/c of the state of the market.
    I mean, after all, there was a reason that they made such huge, sweeping changes to SWG...the game wasn't bringing in the kind of revenue that LA was looking for and so they made the call to make the changes and shot themselves in the foot. But they obviously thought that the game, as it was, wasn't successful or the changes wouldn't have been made.
    No.....I'm sorry all you pre-CU/NGE fans, if it wasn't successful enough then, do you really think they are going to make another game just like it to recapture the audience they lost that wasn't big enough in the first place?



    I have to say that while I agree with many of your premises, you arrive at a counter-intuitive conclusion.

     

    After the launch of WoW - a well-designed, well-executed and well-managed game - the majority of the large, established game companies immediately began work on creating what might for better or worsebe called 'WoW clones'. By this I mean, fantasy games with small landscapes, rigid game structures  and highly linear, level-based progression in a fantasy IP.

    We saw the emergence of a whole set of games like this - from EQ2 (which, though launched simultaneously, was commenced when SOE heard that WoW was on the cards) to the disastrous Dark & Light to the clumsily implemented Vaguard to the well-regarded but, to be frank, very limited Lord of the Rings Online. And, of course, in an attempt to 'be more like WoW', our own SWG was disasterously retro-engineered in November 2005 to mimic WoW's simpler, structured gameplay.

    Not one of these games has proved to be WoW's equal in terms of market share. WoW now has nine million subscribers - its next equivalent in the linear, quest-based fantasy market is probably EQ2 with around 200k+ subscribers; in other words, a million miles away.

    Now there are many individual reasons, some big, some small, why even the best of the games have failed to match WoW's success. I would say that these is one prime cause: that WoW is so good at what it does that if you want to play a linear, quest-based fantasy game, then WoW already has it all. There doesn't need to be another game like this. After all, if I want to kill Orcs with my hammer +3 or set a Mage on fire with a spell, I can already do that in the Burning Steppes - I don't have to go to Gannareth or Mirkwood or Hyperboria to do it. For this reason, I predict that the two widely anticipated games of 2008, AoC and Warhammer will also - in relative terms - fail.

    But just because WoW really is the master of linear/quest MMORPG games, many people seem to think that it is the master of all MMORG games, and that all other types of game, like the sandbox games you dismiss, are essentially non-starters. This is not so at all - especially in the sector of games that are distinctively different to WoW.

    For example, over the last couple of years we have seen the establishment of a number of games that were once niche and have now become mainstream. Like Eve, for example, started by an incredibly small Icelandic studio, which now has 250,000 paying subscribers - which, according to http://mmogdata.voig.com/ places it above EQ2, a far more more expensive game created by a much richer studio. Eve is a sandbox/space game totally different to the linear/quest model.

    Another game totally different to that model is CoX - now with 180k+ subscribers. Again, here is a game totally different to the linear/quest fantasies and, in many ways, incredibly limited and restrictive. Nonetheless, even though it has no IP to speak of, it has a subscriber base approximately double that of SWG.

    Meanwhile, there are new types of game emerging that some people, perhaps a little restricted in their own thinking, refuse even to accept are games at all - like Second Life, for example, which apparently now sucks up 18.86% of all 'virtual recreation'. These games are all about social networking and are attaining WoW-levels of popularity and commercial success - Habbo Hotel now has 7.5 million users, Club Penguin has 4 million paying customers and Gaia Online has 2.2 million.

    What I draw from this is the following:

    • That games that follow the WoW model will fail - specifically games with a fantasy setting, with linear quest-based progression and with limited options and choices outside basic combat - simply because WoW's quality means that it monopolises this sector of the MMO market;
    • That there are other game sectors, currently neglected by major games studios in their bid to create 'the next WoW', which offer vast potential and which are currently being exploited by niche games which one common factor - they are different to WoW;
    • That amongst the most popular and growing of these games are social networking games that are, I suggest, the closest thing to open-ended, sandbox games that the market now has.

    My conclusion:

    • A sandbox game that is different in IP and structure to WoW resourced, delivered and managed by a major games studio - like Bioware for example - rather than a small niche company, could not fail to thrive and prosper in the current MMORG market.
  • epf1epf1 Member Posts: 162

    Well said Hubertgrove!

    I also think that trying to copy the WoW concept is just path down to failure! Why would you want to play a buggy copy when you can play the original?

    The funny thing is that SOE used to have a number of unique MMO's that were all very different and they also attracted a large variety of player styles, especially in the original SWG. EQ2 was also a different game and I liked it becasue it was different from most other games. However, WoW came along and just like SWG, EQ2 also started to morph into a more simplistic linear WoW like game. It wasn't as bad as what happened to SWG, but never the less SOE dumped the original EQ2 design for a more WoW like one :(.

     

  • aristoculousaristoculous Member Posts: 159

    Originally posted by Antarious


     
    Originally posted by DarthRaiden


     
    Originally posted by teddyboy420



    No.....I'm sorry all you pre-CU/NGE fans, if it wasn't successful enough then, do you really think they are going to make another game just like it to recapture the audience they lost that wasn't big enough in the first place?

     

    Now that they changed to more WoW-ish playstyle

    classes-level-raid-loot crap since 2,5 years SWG has an hell of amazing success and dragged millions of people to subscribe.  Risking to  loose so many billions of  profit cash would be wrong of course.

    tho you right about the pre cu modell is a niche model for dedicated MMO gamer wouldn't also drag in millions of subscriber but for a single million could begood enough ;)


    Yes and..

     

    Prior to the launch of WoW SWG was in the number 2 position (behind EQ) for highest subscriber total of a North American based MMO.

    Exactly how many North American based MMO's have beat the peak population of SWG... oh that's right.. EQ1 and WoW.

    So it was obviously a failure.  SWG was considered to be a failure once WoW became "epic".  If WoW had just had the standard MMO population.. then SWG would have been considered a success.

    You can't say that just because a Movie or a book series was a hit.. its going to draw a huge MMO crowd.

    Lucas Arts hasn't exactly had a totally steller record in translating Star Wars to video game.  Yes they have had some great success.  However, they have had many dismal failures (mostly the RTS based ones).

    I think after they saw the crowds that WoW had.. the assumption was made that an IP like Star Wars should have more.

    I'm not sure how when previous to WoW 450,000 subs was considered fantastic.

    SWG had 300,000'ish... I'm not sure how that's exactly a failure.

    Again.. How many US based MMO's have had more population?  compared to how many that had less..

    I don't mind if people didn't like the game (its their right).  I just think it would be nice to apply at least some logic in statements.

    a game that was base on one of the most popular IP's in the world( if not the most popular, I've heard about it in Eastern Europe in days of communism) did not reach subs levels of even EQ1.

     

    Thats a failure, to Lucas Arts and SOE, the developer.

  • DarthRaidenDarthRaiden Member UncommonPosts: 4,333

     

    Originally posted by aristoculous

    Originally posted by Antarious


     
    Originally posted by DarthRaiden


     
    Originally posted by teddyboy420



    No.....I'm sorry all you pre-CU/NGE fans, if it wasn't successful enough then, do you really think they are going to make another game just like it to recapture the audience they lost that wasn't big enough in the first place?

     

    Now that they changed to more WoW-ish playstyle

    classes-level-raid-loot crap since 2,5 years SWG has an hell of amazing success and dragged millions of people to subscribe.  Risking to  loose so many billions of  profit cash would be wrong of course.

    tho you right about the pre cu modell is a niche model for dedicated MMO gamer wouldn't also drag in millions of subscriber but for a single million could begood enough ;)


    Yes and..

     

    Prior to the launch of WoW SWG was in the number 2 position (behind EQ) for highest subscriber total of a North American based MMO.

    Exactly how many North American based MMO's have beat the peak population of SWG... oh that's right.. EQ1 and WoW.

    So it was obviously a failure.  SWG was considered to be a failure once WoW became "epic".  If WoW had just had the standard MMO population.. then SWG would have been considered a success.

    You can't say that just because a Movie or a book series was a hit.. its going to draw a huge MMO crowd.

    Lucas Arts hasn't exactly had a totally steller record in translating Star Wars to video game.  Yes they have had some great success.  However, they have had many dismal failures (mostly the RTS based ones).

    I think after they saw the crowds that WoW had.. the assumption was made that an IP like Star Wars should have more.

    I'm not sure how when previous to WoW 450,000 subs was considered fantastic.

    SWG had 300,000'ish... I'm not sure how that's exactly a failure.

    Again.. How many US based MMO's have had more population?  compared to how many that had less..

    I don't mind if people didn't like the game (its their right).  I just think it would be nice to apply at least some logic in statements.

    a game that was base on one of the most popular IP's in the world( if not the most popular, I've heard about it in Eastern Europe in days of communism) did not reach subs levels of even EQ1.

     

    Thats a failure, to Lucas Arts and SOE, the developer.

     

    This thinking is sad but understandable what is beyond human logic is to let SWG undergo changes that a) your polls shows you you loose subscription and b)some of the developers believe that too, c) you forum is full of anti-changes and  cancel subscription posts, would you ? 

    What if you instead  tried to clean the bugs and LISTEN to what players suggest in your forums (like smugglers should smuggle)

    That would be honest , be  fair to your costumer helps in getting loyal customer and activates the best and very lasting  advertise system an company can have, mouth to mouth propaganda , something that drags me often into MMO, let me stay sometime more then i would  or in case of $OE, let me stay away.

     

     

    -----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
    $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
    -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!

    "There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)

  • FikusOfAhaziFikusOfAhazi Member Posts: 1,835
    Originally posted by aristoculous


     
    a game that was base on one of the most popular IP's in the world( if not the most popular, I've heard about it in Eastern Europe in days of communism) did not reach subs levels of even EQ1.
     
     
    Thats a failure, to Lucas Arts and SOE, the developer.

    And what in your opinion was the reason it didnt reach eq numbers?

    See you in the dream..
    The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.

  • hubertgrovehubertgrove Member Posts: 1,141

     

    Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

    Originally posted by aristoculous


     
    a game that was base on one of the most popular IP's in the world( if not the most popular, I've heard about it in Eastern Europe in days of communism) did not reach subs levels of even EQ1.
     
     
    Thats a failure, to Lucas Arts and SOE, the developer.

    And what in your opinion was the reason it didnt reach eq numbers?

     

    1/. Because they never marketed the product

    2/. Because they didn't fix the many bugs and imbalances..

    ...But god it was good one day, when I'd got my Fencer/Pistoleer template all set up, to beat the crap out of a snotty rebel TKM with my stun baton, one of the first on my server, even though it got a nightmarish damage slice from an idiotic French smuggler.

  • aristoculousaristoculous Member Posts: 159

     

    Originally posted by DarthRaiden


     
    Originally posted by aristoculous

    Originally posted by Antarious


     
    Originally posted by DarthRaiden


     
    Originally posted by teddyboy420



    No.....I'm sorry all you pre-CU/NGE fans, if it wasn't successful enough then, do you really think they are going to make another game just like it to recapture the audience they lost that wasn't big enough in the first place?

     

    Now that they changed to more WoW-ish playstyle

    classes-level-raid-loot crap since 2,5 years SWG has an hell of amazing success and dragged millions of people to subscribe.  Risking to  loose so many billions of  profit cash would be wrong of course.

    tho you right about the pre cu modell is a niche model for dedicated MMO gamer wouldn't also drag in millions of subscriber but for a single million could begood enough ;)


    Yes and..

     

    Prior to the launch of WoW SWG was in the number 2 position (behind EQ) for highest subscriber total of a North American based MMO.

    Exactly how many North American based MMO's have beat the peak population of SWG... oh that's right.. EQ1 and WoW.

    So it was obviously a failure.  SWG was considered to be a failure once WoW became "epic".  If WoW had just had the standard MMO population.. then SWG would have been considered a success.

    You can't say that just because a Movie or a book series was a hit.. its going to draw a huge MMO crowd.

    Lucas Arts hasn't exactly had a totally steller record in translating Star Wars to video game.  Yes they have had some great success.  However, they have had many dismal failures (mostly the RTS based ones).

    I think after they saw the crowds that WoW had.. the assumption was made that an IP like Star Wars should have more.

    I'm not sure how when previous to WoW 450,000 subs was considered fantastic.

    SWG had 300,000'ish... I'm not sure how that's exactly a failure.

    Again.. How many US based MMO's have had more population?  compared to how many that had less..

    I don't mind if people didn't like the game (its their right).  I just think it would be nice to apply at least some logic in statements.

    a game that was base on one of the most popular IP's in the world( if not the most popular, I've heard about it in Eastern Europe in days of communism) did not reach subs levels of even EQ1.

     

    Thats a failure, to Lucas Arts and SOE, the developer.

     

    This thinking is sad but understandable what is beyond human logic is to let SWG undergo changes that a) your polls shows you you loose subscription and b)some of the developers believe that too, c) you forum is full of anti-changes and  cancel subscription posts, would you ? 

    What if you instead  tried to clean the bugs and LISTEN to what players suggest in your forums (like smugglers should smuggle)

    That would be honest , be  fair to your costumer helps in getting loyal customer and activates the best and very lasting  advertise system an company can have, mouth to mouth propaganda , something that drags me often into MMO, let me stay sometime more then i would  or in case of $OE, let me stay away.

     

     

    I was merely stating why it was a failure when u brought up sub numbers for games.

     

     

    Starwars is far more popular on global scale then Warcraft is, and especially EQ1.

     

    Why it failed? It happened before NGE, the design for Jedi's was crappy, need to max out a dozen + profs(if you lucky some took up to 30 profs) to unlock the force sensitive slot, plzzz. I wont even bother with holo grind.

    Some1 did mention on this thread that the Lore in which SWG was set to was bad choice, I would definitely agree. Simple because anyone thinks of starwars, Jedi's come in mind first, not pikeman or swordsman(who's idea was that!?).

     

    I would love to see another MMO with non instanced cities like in SWG, as well as crafting.

     

    Here is to hoping Bioware delivers, I'm sure they will :D.

  • rikiliirikilii Member UncommonPosts: 1,084

    Originally posted by hubertgrove


     
    Originally posted by teddyboy420


     
     
    I have to, sadly, agree with this statement.
    In the months right before, and right after WoW and EQ2 were released the MMO-genre was in it's heyday. There were quite a few big-name, big-money backed MMOs in development , games like UXO, Mythica, Vanguard etc and many of them were cancelled after WoW was released b/c the market shifted, DRASTICALLY.
    Now, in the post-WoW MMO market, I don't think we're going to be seeing many more big-name, top-quality MMO's being made. Especially after what happened w/ Vanguard, and then the whole Perpetual debacle, I just don't think there are many investors out there that are going to be willing to financially back the kind of MMOs that MMO-veterans want to play. With WoW eating up such a huge market share, and the mismanagement and other problems we've seen, it just looks like too large of a risk to throw alot of money behind a top tier MMO.
    I truly think that the Western MMO market is in trouble. For example, what "AAA" MMO titles do we have in development right now? We have WAR, AoC, and the Bioware project, that's it. The nature of these games are such that a gamer usually plays one, and there is no room for anything else and the investors and publishers have seen this and will be loathe to put their money in anything they think "breaks the mold" or a dev house that is looking to "take a chance" on something new.
    I guess what I'm saying is, that fans of Western MMOs, our choices are limited and shrink even more as time goes on. All we can really hope for is that one of the games coming down the pipe will satiate our hunger and be what we are looking for. Games like pre-CU SWG just aren't going to be made anymore b/c of the state of the market.
    I mean, after all, there was a reason that they made such huge, sweeping changes to SWG...the game wasn't bringing in the kind of revenue that LA was looking for and so they made the call to make the changes and shot themselves in the foot. But they obviously thought that the game, as it was, wasn't successful or the changes wouldn't have been made.
    No.....I'm sorry all you pre-CU/NGE fans, if it wasn't successful enough then, do you really think they are going to make another game just like it to recapture the audience they lost that wasn't big enough in the first place?



    I have to say that while I agree with many of your premises, you arrive at a counter-intuitive conclusion.

     

    After the launch of WoW - a well-designed, well-executed and well-managed game - the majority of the large, established game companies immediately began work on creating what might for better or worsebe called 'WoW clones'. By this I mean, fantasy games with small landscapes, rigid game structures  and highly linear, level-based progression in a fantasy IP.

    We saw the emergence of a whole set of games like this - from EQ2 (which, though launched simultaneously, was commenced when SOE heard that WoW was on the cards) to the disastrous Dark & Light to the clumsily implemented Vaguard to the well-regarded but, to be frank, very limited Lord of the Rings Online. And, of course, in an attempt to 'be more like WoW', our own SWG was disasterously retro-engineered in November 2005 to mimic WoW's simpler, structured gameplay.

    Not one of these games has proved to be WoW's equal in terms of market share. WoW now has nine million subscribers - its next equivalent in the linear, quest-based fantasy market is probably EQ2 with around 200k+ subscribers; in other words, a million miles away.

    Now there are many individual reasons, some big, some small, why even the best of the games have failed to match WoW's success. I would say that these is one prime cause: that WoW is so good at what it does that if you want to play a linear, quest-based fantasy game, then WoW already has it all. There doesn't need to be another game like this. After all, if I want to kill Orcs with my hammer +3 or set a Mage on fire with a spell, I can already do that in the Burning Steppes - I don't have to go to Gannareth or Mirkwood or Hyperboria to do it. For this reason, I predict that the two widely anticipated games of 2008, AoC and Warhammer will also - in relative terms - fail.

    But just because WoW really is the master of linear/quest MMORPG games, many people seem to think that it is the master of all MMORG games, and that all other types of game, like the sandbox games you dismiss, are essentially non-starters. This is not so at all - especially in the sector of games that are distinctively different to WoW.

    For example, over the last couple of years we have seen the establishment of a number of games that were once niche and have now become mainstream. Like Eve, for example, started by an incredibly small Icelandic studio, which now has 250,000 paying subscribers - which, according to http://mmogdata.voig.com/ places it above EQ2, a far more more expensive game created by a much richer studio. Eve is a sandbox/space game totally different to the linear/quest model.

    Another game totally different to that model is CoX - now with 180k+ subscribers. Again, here is a game totally different to the linear/quest fantasies and, in many ways, incredibly limited and restrictive. Nonetheless, even though it has no IP to speak of, it has a subscriber base approximately double that of SWG.

    Meanwhile, there are new types of game emerging that some people, perhaps a little restricted in their own thinking, refuse even to accept are games at all - like Second Life, for example, which apparently now sucks up 18.86% of all 'virtual recreation'. These games are all about social networking and are attaining WoW-levels of popularity and commercial success - Habbo Hotel now has 7.5 million users, Club Penguin has 4 million paying customers and Gaia Online has 2.2 million.

    What I draw from this is the following:

    • That games that follow the WoW model will fail - specifically games with a fantasy setting, with linear quest-based progression and with limited options and choices outside basic combat - simply because WoW's quality means that it monopolises this sector of the MMO market;
    • That there are other game sectors, currently neglected by major games studios in their bid to create 'the next WoW', which offer vast potential and which are currently being exploited by niche games which one common factor - they are different to WoW;
    • That amongst the most popular and growing of these games are social networking games that are, I suggest, the closest thing to open-ended, sandbox games that the market now has.

    My conclusion:

    • A sandbox game that is different in IP and structure to WoW resourced, delivered and managed by a major games studio - like Bioware for example - rather than a small niche company, could not fail to thrive and prosper in the current MMORG market.

    If you add to that the fact that SWG was from day 1 a horribly broken and hollow game, and kept getting worse every time the devs tried to "fix" anything (I'm talking pre-CU here), yet still somehow managed to pull in and keep 300K subscribers for the better part of the year, this man is really on to something.

    Now imagine how well it would have done if it had actual content and wasn't so horribly bugged.

    ____________________________________________
    im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good

  • rubiconrubicon Member Posts: 14

    SWG pre-CU was a great game.  It just didn't pander to the masses.  There is no way you can have 32 professions and have a sense of 'balance'... some ended up being better than others, so what?  And as for the jedi grind... yeah it sucked but at least when you got jedi it was something special, not some FOTM event like all the wanna-be's that went Feral Druid when BC came out.

    Players may not get pre-CU back, but let's not second guess what once WAS a great game. What made it greatest of all, is that all the whiney little 12 year olds were unable intellectually to play it.  So you didn't have any of that immature B-S that pollutes every Blizzard game out there. And the non-linear style to it was amazing.  It was possible for every player to come up with a unique build based on their own interests.

    Just because a game doesn't have a tight raiding structure and offer the same predictible features that other MMORPG's have, doesn't mean it's not great, it is just different :)

     

     

     

Sign In or Register to comment.