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General: Raph Koster Asks "What is Cheating"

SzarkSzark News ManagerMember Posts: 4,420

Raph Koster has made a post on his website that poses an interesting question for MMO gamers.  What is cheating?  He looks at what it meant to cheat in the earliest forms of MMOs and muds, and compares that to what we think of as cheating in the context of today's games and "strategy guides".

The thing that’s funny is that yes, of course players regard RMT as cheating. But make no mistake, looking up the steps to a quest was once upon a time a bannable offense on many muds, and widely considered cheating. (Calling the sites out there today “strategy guides” is a bit of stretch — they’re more like complete walkthroughs). Powerlevelling someone was once upon a time a bannable offense on some muds. Going through a quest with someone and telling them the steps. Chatting the location of an item on a public channel. You get the idea. Yes, all of Allakhazam is the equivalent of something that would have gotten scorn and anger from among both the playerbase and the admins.

Frankly, the definition of cheating has grown a lot more lax over the years. The early mud culture was very big on avoiding spoilers, at least in the quest-oriented muds. (Many of the quests were, of course, much more complex and more like adventure game puzzles). People were granted the powers of game admins based on levelling to the top of the game — and it was presumed to be important that they had intimate knowledge of the game, so powerlevelling someone was looked down upon.

Over time, we got game design solutions to stuff like powerlevelling. To a point anyway — the practice continues, but it’s nowhere near as egregious as it was in the days before stuff like XP scaled by level. On some muds, you could group a newbie and a level 100, have the newbie stand out of the way, and level the newbie a pile of levels at once by having the level 100 kill a few high level mobs.

Read more here.

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Comments

  • boommer99boommer99 Member UncommonPosts: 309

    I have seen dead pandas that know more about game design than Raph Coster.  I'll read anything he has to say as soon as he admits he is NOT always right and doesn't really know what gamers want... because he doesn't.

    ---
    Bartle Test Breakdown: Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 26.67%, Socializer 66.67%

  • SigneSigne Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 2,524

    His name is -K-oster, by the way. 

    Just sayin'... for the sake of news managing credibility.... 

  • slannmageslannmage Member Posts: 540

    Yeh was gonna say isn't it spelt with a K

  • eric_w66eric_w66 Member UncommonPosts: 1,006

    I think Raph is missing the major point of why cheating was a much more serious crime in MUD's:

    The game was the community. There were two goals for MUD's: Fun and community (for the most part anyways, Genocide and all pvp MUD's weren't anything but text based gank fests, something that continues on today as graphical based gank fests, some things never change).

    The MUD's community was small, maybe 30-150 people online at any one time, based on the size of the MUD, and maybe a thousand or two total players. You tended to get to know everyone. Since the game couldn't be a graphical masterpiece, they relied on the storytelling ability of the wiz's who created the areas and classes, and the community itself to keep things interesting. Now we all live in graphical wonderlands where all of our imagination has been stuffed away into a locked box never to be used in-game again.

    For example, LOTRO, a decent game, I got tired of the grind in the 30's, think I maxed out at 35, and quit. Most of my quests at that point were group only, and since I played at odd times, I couldn't ever meet people enough to form groups with them at the drop of a hat. In a MUD, chances were that I knew everyone, at least of a certain level, online. And if I needed help with something (rarely, as most content was soloable), I could ask and find some help.

    I remember releasing one of my areas with brand new quests in a MUD called Nightmare. It wasn't a huge area, but it was chock full of things, and a quest or two (back when the number of quests on the entire mud numbered in the 10-20 range usually, some MUD's like 3K had more). I waited to see who would be the first to solve my quest, since I gave no spoilers out, it had to be ALL player work. It took two weeks, but finally a group of relative lowbies found the answer and completed it (since no one had completed it, working together wasn't forbidden :)). It was a special moment for me as a developer to see people *enjoy* the content I had made. Now, its all mass produced, cookie cutter crap. Sure the graphics are pretty, but I don't play games based on how pretty they are. I can still have fun playing PONG.

    Most game developers have been suckered into believing "Graphics = fun". Good gameplay is fun. Not shiny armor or pixelated bazongas.

  • AntariousAntarious Member UncommonPosts: 2,809

    Yes its definitely Raph Koster... tho I knew him longest as "Designer Dragon".

    I found some of his definition of "cheating" a tad off personally.  Don't get me wrong I loved UO/SWG and wish he'd make another skill based MMO...

    But "hint books" or "strat guides" existed before MUDs...  Well perhaps that depends.  Back when most of the US was on GTE Telnet... There were most likely some people doing multi user projects. 

    But Wizardry... Zork etc had "hint books".

    I don't believe anyone ever called it "cheating".

    When I played Wizardry 6... it took me 1.5 years to get through the game.  I most definitely felt like I had achieved something.  I'd play get stuck.. stop playing... dream about it (yes that seems sad).  Try what I dreamed about and repreat the process.

    If you defined a "hint book" as cheating.. it would only be cheating yourself out of something.

    Go play Dark Age of Camelot... and then try to define cheating for me as a strategy guide..

    People use speed hacks, radar and exploit any game mechanic they can.  (yes speed hacks and radar still exist in daoc... play the battle grounds and you can see for yourself).  Most of it you don't see so much at 50 in the frontiers atm.

    So I guess *I* would have a very different view on what cheating is...

    I actually miss UO because as bad as it seemed.. the "community" there was gold compared to todays mmo's.

     

    Anyway short version...  I don't see a hint as a cheat.

    When I'm dealing with non speed classes running by me at warp factor 10.. that never stop (leaving vapor trails and all) and they can see 2x past clip range with their mysteriously enhanced eyesight... 

     

  • ElikalElikal Member UncommonPosts: 7,912

    Raph Koster, whose blog I follow regularly, is one of the wisest people in matters of gaming I know of. I dont give such praise easy, trust me.

    He is able to think ahead and think out of the box, which elevates him above those many, who only understand what is fashion NOW.

    Rules always change, what is socially accepted also changes. I recall vividly who much looking for strategy guides was condemned as cheating and now many ppl never go to a quest without an entire strategy guide. As such, habits change, and we cant stop such changed, but adapt to it or go.

    There is however one thing to be said about both Gold buying and looking into strategy guides. I know it is a usual reaction that people blame the PEOPLE for it. If such things are considered not ok, it is not the PEOPLE playing, its the GAMES who are to be blamed! All so often an EQ2 quest was just so vague, its steps so complicated, I just didnt have the massive amounts spare time to try all things out, I just HAD to look for a strategy guide, because I just could not spent days and days looking for the next step.

    Same with RMT. Many things are just so DAMN expensive, I just can not with any normal time schedule of a 8+ hour job and family make enough money for, say a mount. It is just out of any "legal" reach for me.

    So the comparision of looking for strategy guides and RMT trade fits EAXACTLY! Both are ways of players who lack the endless time of students and pupils and still want to achieve some things. MMO mechanics are still tailored for students with endless time and insane levels of dedication as if we had 1990. But we havent. Gaming has for good come out of this niche where it was played by 15 year old male, pimpled nerds. Today MMOs are for everyone, and working adults with families just have other priorities than making a game their 2nd life. Alas its the games who havent adapted, so players start to circumvent rules.

    And as Captain Barbossa said "They are not actually rules... more a set of guidelines..."

    Gaming is a personal hobby. And in what way I play my hobby is my choice not anyone else's. Its those conservative old school self proclaimed "elite" who always abhorrs any change in gaming. It was always the same. When RPGs suddenly had ingame maps and we no longer had to draw them on chequered paper, the elitists yelled it was too easy now. When RPGs were no longer textbased and got 3d they yelled it was a betrayal of the story-focus. I guess they still run DOS 6.1 because WIndows 3.11 was too easy to handle. I was there in all these debates. The self-proclaimed elite ALWAYS cries when things become more user-friendly. I have long stopped caring. Progress happens and dinosaurs vanish. There is just no stem agains the tides of change, you can go with it or perish. Such is the case with evolution.

    I always admired Kirk for the way he solved the Kobajashi Maru test. If the rules dont fit a win, change the rules. They ain't sacred. ;)

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • 0over00over0 Member UncommonPosts: 488

    There's nothing like fuzzy logic and moral relativism to wriggle one's way out of anything.

    I suppose if I said my hobby were painting, but, damn, I just don't have the hours of time required to paint so instead I bought a paint-by-numbers kit, I could still say my hobby is painting, right? How about if I pay my next-door-neighbor's daughter to paint it for me? I'd still sign it at the end to make it my work. That's okay, right?

    You're too busy with RL to spend time "achieving" everything in a game? Then don't. EIther change the way you play and what you think you have to accomplish in the game, or find something else to do. That's the nature of life. Trade-offs, balances, change.

    Too many people want it both ways. You wanna cheat? Then cheat--just don't expect everyone else to praise you for it or accept it. And sure as hell don't expect everyone to agree that it's okay because you don't have the time they do. They don't have the time you do for other things--does that make it okay if they get promoted over you in a job? How about they get your house and you live in a dive apartment? It's okay, right? After all, they just don't have the time to devote to those RL pursuits.

    Apply lemon juice and candle flame here to reveal secret message.

  • ElikalElikal Member UncommonPosts: 7,912

     

    Originally posted by 0over0


    There's nothing like fuzzy logic and moral relativism to wriggle one's way out of anything.
    I suppose if I said my hobby were painting, but, damn, I just don't have the hours of time required to paint so instead I bought a paint-by-numbers kit, I could still say my hobby is painting, right? How about if I pay my next-door-neighbor's daughter to paint it for me? I'd still sign it at the end to make it my work. That's okay, right?
    You're too busy with RL to spend time "achieving" everything in a game? Then don't. EIther change the way you play and what you think you have to accomplish in the game, or find something else to do. That's the nature of life. Trade-offs, balances, change.
    Too many people want it both ways. You wanna cheat? Then cheat--just don't expect everyone else to praise you for it or accept it. And sure as hell don't expect everyone to agree that it's okay because you don't have the time they do. They don't have the time you do for other things--does that make it okay if they get promoted over you in a job? How about they get your house and you live in a dive apartment? It's okay, right? After all, they just don't have the time to devote to those RL pursuits.

     

    *shrug* I dont care if anyone accepts. I do what I want, and so should everyone else. Life is too brief for so called "morality". Its a friggin game, its for fun, not some religion. If you pay someone to write you a novel and he sells it to you so you can pblish it under your name, thats entirely your thing. Entire LEGIONS of people work like this. Do you want to make them unemployed to satisfy YOUR personal moral??

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • AntariousAntarious Member UncommonPosts: 2,809

     

    Originally posted by 0over0


    There's nothing like fuzzy logic and moral relativism to wriggle one's way out of anything.
    I suppose if I said my hobby were painting, but, damn, I just don't have the hours of time required to paint so instead I bought a paint-by-numbers kit, I could still say my hobby is painting, right? How about if I pay my next-door-neighbor's daughter to paint it for me? I'd still sign it at the end to make it my work. That's okay, right?
    You're too busy with RL to spend time "achieving" everything in a game? Then don't. EIther change the way you play and what you think you have to accomplish in the game, or find something else to do. That's the nature of life. Trade-offs, balances, change.
    Too many people want it both ways. You wanna cheat? Then cheat--just don't expect everyone else to praise you for it or accept it. And sure as hell don't expect everyone to agree that it's okay because you don't have the time they do. They don't have the time you do for other things--does that make it okay if they get promoted over you in a job? How about they get your house and you live in a dive apartment? It's okay, right? After all, they just don't have the time to devote to those RL pursuits.

     

    That is a rather odd application of logic there.

    The paint by numbers thing alone.

    If you want to make a logcial comparison at least do it on an equal playing field.

    MMO:  You are dropped into a world you know nothing about.  You have to figure it out entirely on your own (which I like to do) or you buy a book/go to a web site.  Altho it seems to me the most common thing now is to spam a regional chat asking where every single thing is.  (yes it bothers me which is why I turn all of those types of chat.. off).

    Now you chose to bring up painting.

    The relevant example would be... You pick up a brush and try to figure out how to paint on your own.

    To actually take art classes... would be cheating as you are being "guided" through the process.

    **

    There are self taught people in many fields in the real world.  Just as in MMO's there  are people that figure out everything on their own.

    If you want to apply the logic that a hint is a cheat.. Then actually going to school to learn how to do somethign would be a cheat, because you didn't figure it out on your own.

    *I* wouldn't bring the real world into this equation.. as its just not something that really works.

    It also doesn't affect my ability to play a game because someone else is using a "hint" guide/site.

    While using 3rd party programs, exploiting mechanics to make mass amounts of money (duping etc) do actually affect the game world.. that's why those are cheats to me.

    and to close this ramble..

    When I play a game it is to escape the real world and its drama and to explore/figure out things.

    I've never thought of someone who buys a hint book to figure it out as a cheat.  I really can't even begin to comprehend how anyone would think that or try to apply it in any logical sense.. to be honest.

    Especially with the types of things that go on in games today.

  • SamuraiswordSamuraisword Member Posts: 2,111

    I agree with the basic premise that cheating is anything that violates the spirit of the game. It doesn't have to be defined in a EULA for it to be considered cheating. Spoiler sites are of course, cheating. Being told something, by another player in game however, could be the bartering of information, and therefore not cheating. It depends on the context of the sharing of information. Spamming "How do I get XXX item?" ,on an unrealistic world wide chat channel, is of course, cheating.

    image

  • Death1942Death1942 Member UncommonPosts: 2,587

    cheating:  taking part in an action that is outside of a set of rules or laws.  usually for the sole benefit of yourself.

    MMO wish list:

    -Changeable worlds
    -Solid non level based game
    -Sharks with lasers attached to their heads

  • ElikalElikal Member UncommonPosts: 7,912

    Good is a matter of perspective. Rules are not good per se. And they dont devoid you of thinking for yourself. Like if you stand at a red sign at a street waiting to cross the street. Its 3 AM, there is none there and you can see the road as far as you can. Do you stick to the rules for the rules sake? Well of course NOT. The sabbath is made for men, not men are made for the sabbath.

     

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • SamuraiswordSamuraisword Member Posts: 2,111
    Originally posted by Elikal


    Good is a matter of perspective. Rules are not good per se. And they dont devoid you of thinking for yourself. Like if you stand at a red sign at a street waiting to cross the street. Its 3 AM, there is none there and you can see the road as far as you can. Do you stick to the rules for the rules sake? Well of course NOT. The sabbath is made for men, not men are made for the sabbath.
     

    Most of us would cross the road, but that doesn't change the fact that we are breaking the rule. If you ask me I will still admit, yes I violated the rule. What bothers me is when someone denies it.

    image

  • DrowNobleDrowNoble Member Posts: 1,296

    Well first off certain things are cheating no matter how people try to rationalize or justify it.  Probably most (if not all)  EULA or TOS forbid selling their code for your profit.  Doesn't matter if you did the quest for the Greatsword of Uberness, it's not a sword it's code ... and that code is owned by the company NOT you.  Period, no if's and's or but's about it.  If a game has a system that allows this that is different as the devs would of made the game with that in mind.  Exchange servers in EQ2 come to mind as an example.

    Looking up a walkthrough isn't cheating.  Why?  You still have to actually *do* the quest yourself.  I may know where the clicky is, what abilities the mob(s) have and how to get there... BUT... I actually have to do click the clicky, kill the mobs and get myself there.

    Powerleveling is only cheating if it is done by a 3rd Party you're paying for.  This goes back to my 1st statement, you don't own the code and you are buying code from someone else that they didn't have the right to sell to you in the first place. 

    Now, having your friend take you along and powerlevel you is ok.  You're both operating in the framework of the game and this encourages grouping and other social skills.  Your character is still being run by you and not being "turned over to you" by a 3rd party.

  • ElikalElikal Member UncommonPosts: 7,912

     

    Originally posted by DrowNoble


    Well first off certain things are cheating no matter how people try to rationalize or justify it.  Probably most (if not all)  EULA or TOS forbid selling their code for your profit.  Doesn't matter if you did the quest for the Greatsword of Uberness, it's not a sword it's code ... and that code is owned by the company NOT you.  Period, no if's and's or but's about it.  If a game has a system that allows this that is different as the devs would of made the game with that in mind.  Exchange servers in EQ2 come to mind as an example.
    Looking up a walkthrough isn't cheating.  Why?  You still have to actually *do* the quest yourself.  I may know where the clicky is, what abilities the mob(s) have and how to get there... BUT... I actually have to do click the clicky, kill the mobs and get myself there.
    Powerleveling is only cheating if it is done by a 3rd Party you're paying for.  This goes back to my 1st statement, you don't own the code and you are buying code from someone else that they didn't have the right to sell to you in the first place. 
    Now, having your friend take you along and powerlevel you is ok.  You're both operating in the framework of the game and this encourages grouping and other social skills.  Your character is still being run by you and not being "turned over to you" by a 3rd party.

     

    Its an exchange. My money I worked for for their work.

    Cheating is such a hard word. Lets call it "making innovative rulesets."

    LOL, actually I dont care. hrhr.

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • someforumguysomeforumguy Member RarePosts: 4,066

    I dont so much have a problem with a player that buys gold to get his mount in certain games. If a mount cant be purchased from ingame money that you earned during your 'adventures' and you have to go out of your way and 'work' for the ingame money, I understand the wish to buy ingame money. Because the only other alternative for that player to get that mount, is to cross the boundary from playing a game to playing a chore.

    Raph Koster's view is also understandable if you look at the current popular MMO titles and their gamedesigns, but also quite ignorant I think from a player's perspective.

    If you design a game with controlled RMT in mind, you can expect that you will have more intended designed 'chores' in a game. Chores that wont tell you a story, and wont challenge you or puzzle you. Chores that you then can buy of with the RMT service. A gaming company is still a commercial business, so their RMT service will be made very attractive to use.

     - Make 100 incredibly boring lvls with juicy endgame play and buy xp bonus buffs at your ingame shops.

     - Let a player end up with 10silver at lvl20 from normal gameplay and offer a horse for that level for 100silver. Or let them buy it in the ingameshop.

    Is this how we want MMO's to develop?

    Instead of an alternative world with a great background story where you can have challenging and immersive adventures in, just a shell of a game where you can buy an 'easy' button and all immersion is lost, because there are no longer quests or adventures, but only chores?

  • BodysnatcherBodysnatcher Member Posts: 141

    Buying Gold is cheating. Having some one tell you where to go to finish a quest for free is not.

    It is simple. If you PAY money to some one besides the actual game you are cheating.

    Speed hax and exploits are cheating.  You are taking advantage of a fault in the game, there is no honor in that.

    As one who has a family and more than full time job I have never paid for gold. Would feel a little bit like a jack ass if I did.  Though it means I will level slower than some people I play with. 

    Its not a race. Its a journey.

    Kings and Sons of God
    Travel on their way from here
    Calming restless mobs
    Easing all of their, all of their fear
    Strange times are here.

  • 0over00over0 Member UncommonPosts: 488

    Originally posted by Antarious


     
    Originally posted by 0over0


    There's nothing like fuzzy logic and moral relativism to wriggle one's way out of anything.
    I suppose if I said my hobby were painting, but, damn, I just don't have the hours of time required to paint so instead I bought a paint-by-numbers kit, I could still say my hobby is painting, right? How about if I pay my next-door-neighbor's daughter to paint it for me? I'd still sign it at the end to make it my work. That's okay, right?
    You're too busy with RL to spend time "achieving" everything in a game? Then don't. EIther change the way you play and what you think you have to accomplish in the game, or find something else to do. That's the nature of life. Trade-offs, balances, change.
    Too many people want it both ways. You wanna cheat? Then cheat--just don't expect everyone else to praise you for it or accept it. And sure as hell don't expect everyone to agree that it's okay because you don't have the time they do. They don't have the time you do for other things--does that make it okay if they get promoted over you in a job? How about they get your house and you live in a dive apartment? It's okay, right? After all, they just don't have the time to devote to those RL pursuits.

     

    That is a rather odd application of logic there.

    The paint by numbers thing alone.

    If you want to make a logcial comparison at least do it on an equal playing field.

    MMO:  You are dropped into a world you know nothing about.  You have to figure it out entirely on your own (which I like to do) or you buy a book/go to a web site.  Altho it seems to me the most common thing now is to spam a regional chat asking where every single thing is.  (yes it bothers me which is why I turn all of those types of chat.. off).

    Now you chose to bring up painting.

    The relevant example would be... You pick up a brush and try to figure out how to paint on your own.

    To actually take art classes... would be cheating as you are being "guided" through the process.

    **

    There are self taught people in many fields in the real world.  Just as in MMO's there  are people that figure out everything on their own.

    If you want to apply the logic that a hint is a cheat.. Then actually going to school to learn how to do somethign would be a cheat, because you didn't figure it out on your own.

    *I* wouldn't bring the real world into this equation.. as its just not something that really works.

    It also doesn't affect my ability to play a game because someone else is using a "hint" guide/site.

    While using 3rd party programs, exploiting mechanics to make mass amounts of money (duping etc) do actually affect the game world.. that's why those are cheats to me.

    and to close this ramble..

    When I play a game it is to escape the real world and its drama and to explore/figure out things.

    I've never thought of someone who buys a hint book to figure it out as a cheat.  I really can't even begin to comprehend how anyone would think that or try to apply it in any logical sense.. to be honest.

    Especially with the types of things that go on in games today.

    I structured the example the way it was for a reason. Buying someone else's painting and calling it your own does not teach you how to paint.

    Buying in-game items or characters and calling them your own does not teach you how to play the game.

    Understand?

    Apply lemon juice and candle flame here to reveal secret message.

  • 0over00over0 Member UncommonPosts: 488

    Originally posted by Elikal


     
    Originally posted by 0over0


    There's nothing like fuzzy logic and moral relativism to wriggle one's way out of anything.
    I suppose if I said my hobby were painting, but, damn, I just don't have the hours of time required to paint so instead I bought a paint-by-numbers kit, I could still say my hobby is painting, right? How about if I pay my next-door-neighbor's daughter to paint it for me? I'd still sign it at the end to make it my work. That's okay, right?
    You're too busy with RL to spend time "achieving" everything in a game? Then don't. EIther change the way you play and what you think you have to accomplish in the game, or find something else to do. That's the nature of life. Trade-offs, balances, change.
    Too many people want it both ways. You wanna cheat? Then cheat--just don't expect everyone else to praise you for it or accept it. And sure as hell don't expect everyone to agree that it's okay because you don't have the time they do. They don't have the time you do for other things--does that make it okay if they get promoted over you in a job? How about they get your house and you live in a dive apartment? It's okay, right? After all, they just don't have the time to devote to those RL pursuits.

     

    *shrug* I dont care if anyone accepts. I do what I want, and so should everyone else. Life is too brief for so called "morality". Its a friggin game, its for fun, not some religion. If you pay someone to write you a novel and he sells it to you so you can pblish it under your name, thats entirely your thing. Entire LEGIONS of people work like this. Do you want to make them unemployed to satisfy YOUR personal moral??

    We should all do what we want? Tell that to someone the next time they decide they don't like your face and want to rearrange it.

    Despite your faux machismo and ignorant (as in, lacking in experience) attitude, society doesn't work that way. There are rules for a very good reason: without them, there is no society and life comes down to the biggest, baddest person does what they want...to you.

    The point of a game, as you so clearly seem to miss, is not to get to the end. See, you don't "win" an mmo. So skipping to the end of the game is akin to reading only the last three pages of a novel and thinking smugly to yourself, "I read that book." You could possibly "win" a game of chess by picking up your king and stabbing your opponent in the eye with it. But that's not playing by the rules you so disdain, is it? I suppose you'd call it a win--at least on the forums. I have a strong feeling that in RL, you are not so nonchalent about rules.

    But go ahead, keep lying to yourself. I'm sure you'll meet plenty of people in life who think the same way and spend all their time screwing one another over so they can "win."

    Apply lemon juice and candle flame here to reveal secret message.

  • OrthedosOrthedos Member Posts: 1,771

    Originally posted by Death1942


    cheating:  taking part in an action that is outside of a set of rules or laws.  usually for the sole benefit of yourself.

    The reply below is an elaboration on all previous replies, and not personally directed againsts you death1942, I quoted you b/c your comments are particularly short and yet focused.



    First whose rule?  Why MUST I respect your rule.  Technically the only rule that binds a person in a civil society is the law.  Anything else is respect and honor, something that depends on the person exercising it.  I do not need to respect what you respect.  Different generations respect different things.  100 years ago, the male do not respect the right of the female to show their sexy body in public.

    Benefitting oneself is not a crime, if it happens to affect someone else in a measurable manner, the 2 parties can discuss and see if they can agree on compensation.  RMT does not affect anyone apart from game developer.  The developer lost something they perceived as belonging to them, and the player or the gold farmer has no right to perform transactions based on virtual items.  That is the law.  Anything else is your view, and the item buyer need not share your view.  I understand why the game developers are sometimes angry at the gold farmers.  I understand that gold spamming in games are annoying, but the act of buying and selling in ebay or gold farmer sites?  That has nothing to do with me.  I feel some kind of sour jealousy.  The rich can buy a mercedes, now they can buy the purple sword I prided myself on, and the rich can get it in 10 minutes, now I grumble ...

    Originally posted by 0over0

    There's nothing like fuzzy logic and moral relativism to wriggle one's way out of anything.

    I suppose if I said my hobby were painting, but, damn, I just don't have the hours of time required to paint so instead I bought a paint-by-numbers kit, I could still say my hobby is painting, right? How about if I pay my next-door-neighbor's daughter to paint it for me? I'd still sign it at the end to make it my work. That's okay, right?  Why not?  Why do you care if I paint it or my dog paint it?  It is not your paint work.  You feel righteous over something that hardly bothers you.  Don't you think you gave yourself too big a jurisdiction to rule on?  Since when you set the rules on who can work on my paint work?

    You're too busy with RL to spend time "achieving" everything in a game? Then don't. EIther change the way you play and what you think you have to accomplish in the game, or find something else to do. That's the nature of life. Trade-offs, balances, change.  If you push your argument further, we should not buy food or clothes or whatever, or buy tickets to see a movie.  Since I am too busy in RL to grow my own food, I should starve.  Come on, whatever I achieve in my game with my own means has nothing to do with you.  I earn my money and play the game my way.  I enjoy it, period.  OF COURSE, RMT is illegal, that I understand, but telling me about any other kind of "immorality" is BS.  If I buy from gold farmer, I broke the user agreement, that makes me a criminal, and that is why I should be spanked.  If the game allows me to buy the item, then I can freely buy whatever I wish.  None of your business.

    Too many people want it both ways. You wanna cheat? Then cheat--just don't expect everyone else to praise you for it or accept it. And sure as hell don't expect everyone to agree that it's okay because you don't have the time they do. They don't have the time you do for other things--does that make it okay if they get promoted over you in a job? How about they get your house and you live in a dive apartment? It's okay, right? After all, they just don't have the time to devote to those RL pursuits.  Cheating refers to a commonly agreed set of rules, and in a world of gaming, rules are not hard and fast, nor live and death issues.  It is just a game.   Your rules are yours only.  As for your respect, who are you?  As for they promoting over me and getting my house, I hardly see your logic in that line of argument, apart from trying to flame and getting out of control.

  • OrthedosOrthedos Member Posts: 1,771
    Originally posted by 0over0


     
    Originally posted by Elikal


     
    Originally posted by 0over0


    There's nothing like fuzzy logic and moral relativism to wriggle one's way out of anything.
    I suppose if I said my hobby were painting, but, damn, I just don't have the hours of time required to paint so instead I bought a paint-by-numbers kit, I could still say my hobby is painting, right? How about if I pay my next-door-neighbor's daughter to paint it for me? I'd still sign it at the end to make it my work. That's okay, right?
    You're too busy with RL to spend time "achieving" everything in a game? Then don't. EIther change the way you play and what you think you have to accomplish in the game, or find something else to do. That's the nature of life. Trade-offs, balances, change.
    Too many people want it both ways. You wanna cheat? Then cheat--just don't expect everyone else to praise you for it or accept it. And sure as hell don't expect everyone to agree that it's okay because you don't have the time they do. They don't have the time you do for other things--does that make it okay if they get promoted over you in a job? How about they get your house and you live in a dive apartment? It's okay, right? After all, they just don't have the time to devote to those RL pursuits.

     

    *shrug* I dont care if anyone accepts. I do what I want, and so should everyone else. Life is too brief for so called "morality". Its a friggin game, its for fun, not some religion. If you pay someone to write you a novel and he sells it to you so you can pblish it under your name, thats entirely your thing. Entire LEGIONS of people work like this. Do you want to make them unemployed to satisfy YOUR personal moral??

     

    We should all do what we want? Tell that to someone the next time they decide they don't like your face and want to rearrange it.  In the modern world, this is against the law, I can run to a police station if that happens to me.  I can do nothing tho, if that someone only do not like my face and is sitting at home planning to deface me.  In the barbarian world, oh well good luck.  Find a big stick and smash him first.

    Despite your faux machismo and ignorant (as in, lacking in experience) attitude, society doesn't work that way. There are rules for a very good reason: without them, there is no society and life comes down to the biggest, baddest person does what they want...to you.  The only rule is the law, and if the game allows it, then you have nothing to say any more.

    The point of a game, as you so clearly seem to miss, is not to get to the end. See, you don't "win" an mmo. So skipping to the end of the game is akin to reading only the last three pages of a novel and thinking smugly to yourself, "I read that book." You could possibly "win" a game of chess by picking up your king and stabbing your opponent in the eye with it. But that's not playing by the rules you so disdain, is it? I suppose you'd call it a win--at least on the forums. I have a strong feeling that in RL, you are not so nonchalent about rules.  The point of a game, is I pay for my account and I play it my way.  None of your damn business.  Only the game (represented by the GM) has anything to say on this issue.  I remember letting my sister's baby beat me in a chess game by simply letting him sweep all pieces off the board.  We both are happy, period.  That is a game.  Learn to enjoy your share of the game, and stop your jealous remarks.  And stop speculating about my RL.  WE are only anonymous icons in a message board talking about games.  We will never meet in RL.  You do not have to resort to personal attacks to vent your anger.

    But go ahead, keep lying to yourself. I'm sure you'll meet plenty of people in life who think the same way and spend all their time screwing one another over so they can "win."  Come on, mind your own business.  You are not the sheriff, you are another player, no more than that.

     

  • TruecidationTruecidation Member Posts: 16

    And this is what is freaking wrong with today's "player base". A new exploit is found, the devs/gms haven't plugged it yet, woop omg quick use it, it's not cheating because it isn't "in the rules". Yeah, great logic there, adhere to the letter of the law and not the spirit.

     

    The point of a game, as you so clearly seem to miss, is not to get to the end. See, you don't "win" an mmo. So skipping to the end of the game is akin to reading only the last three pages of a novel and thinking smugly to yourself, "I read that book." You could possibly "win" a game of chess by picking up your king and stabbing your opponent in the eye with it. But that's not playing by the rules you so disdain, is it? I suppose you'd call it a win--at least on the forums. I have a strong feeling that in RL, you are not so nonchalent about rules.

    QFT.

     

    The no-selling rule of accounts and in-game items is there for a reason, farming imbalances the game and screws up the economy. Just check out any korean grindfest that is overrun with bots and farmers. Sure technically they may not be cheating per se, in the sense of exploiting game bugs maybe, but then why play the game at all? Spend $100 and buy an end-game character decked out in everything. Whoop de freaking whoo. Then they get bored and disruptive. I've seen it happen all too many times. Why even bother? If you're gonna do that might as well play Progress Quest (the ultimate hands-free mmo).

     

    Also, you don't live in a vacuum. Your encouragement of the 3rd party (and in most games, illegal) gold farmers only serves to kill the enjoyment of legitimate players who still understand the spirit of "role playing" in games (as opposed to buying all your levels and gear from someone). If you want an uber char so much then go play a singleplayer/LAN/private server game.

    " In Defeat, Malice; In Victory, Revenge! "

  • babyeaterbabyeater Member Posts: 25

    RMT? real money transfer? is that what people are in arms about? 

    i play City Of X and when a 8th level defender cant byut a recipe for a healing enhancement with  her 200k influence because all  the 50s want that same level 10 enhancement then something is wrong.  is the guy who buys influence wrong? is the player who sells  influence wrong?  who do these 2 people hurt?

    the guys hurting people are the ones selling common salvage for 30k so no one who should be able to use it can. the guys selling a level 10 recipe for 10-50 million are also hurting everyone who is a low level healer as they cannot possibly buy that  without the help of the influence seller.

    i think the fault lies with the munchkin elitest power gameing snobs that want to control what everyone else does and how they play.  I enjoy being successful and not dying  when i play a game.  if spending  a few dollars can solve that without impacting another person in a negative way, why is that wrong?

  • streeastreea Member UncommonPosts: 654

    If buying/selling in-game stuff for real money is indeed the direction things go, then the rules will change to fit that.

    But guess what? It isn't. Most larger MMOs have RULES that they themselves lay out that says it is cheating, it is illegal, and they'll ban you if you're caught. These companies don't want it in their game. Thus, it is CHEATING. It's like saying "oh, well I don't like this silly little law about not killing people. It's my life, I can kill whoever I want." Sure you can. It doesn't change the fact that the laws say it is wrong. Nor does it change the fact that you will be punished when caught.

    Don't like it? There are plenty of MMOs out there that either don't care about it or have the manpower to really enforce it. Go play those games. Stop trying to "prove" that you're somehow right when you're not.

  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,726

    Why do people always bring up MUDs as an example?  I mean come on, I find them so different from the MMO market that it is ridiculous to do a comparison.   Many of you have pointed out the small close knit groups they were, you just don't find that in any MMO.  I remember when I first started UO, it was night and day different than the prior muds and the community was too.

    I think the problem with cheating being taken so lightly these days directly relates to the console market.  Most console games have cheat codes, it was and is extremely easy to get these codes and do any of these games effortlessly and there was no one but yourself to criticize you on it as it effected no one else.

    A MMO is very different as what you do really does effect how everyone else plays a game.   Most ex console players just do not get this aspect, to them cheat codes are a great thing.  They just do not grasp how it affects others nor do they care.

    As to the RMT scandel, what is the point of having a rare item when anyone with enough money to purchase one can have one.  It is not rare anymore when someone buys it, it is just someone buying a cheatcode.  What is the point of working hard to get something when someone else can just buy it?

    Any MMO that allows this RMT to operate freely is just trash in my book and should be boycotted.  Just no excuse for such dispicable practices.  

    All this does is put me more firmly in Blizzard's tent.  Just another example of falling industry standards making a mockery of some companies.

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