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How do Warhammer lore fans look at WAR MMO?
madnagash
Member Posts: 33
Hi,
I'm an old Warhammer pen'n'pencil and tabletop fan: quite recently I read everything I could about the WAR MMO. From the point of viiew of the game mechanics it looks great in compaarison to other MMO's out there.
I'm afraid however, that the delicate and glooomy atmosphere of the Old World will not be preserved. My main concern is the class system. To be honest I think it blows big time. Here's why:
1. considering each race has 4 classes, we can assume there will be roughly the same distribution of them per faction (more or less). Therefore, i am lead to think, that the armies of empire will consist of 25% witchhunters, 25% knights, 25% priest, 25% of wizards. The same goes for elves - a class called archmage - am i wrong or was this a supreme caste in high elven society? and now they will be running around villages asking dor 25 copper for silly quests:o
2. I thought the world of warhammer was so gloomy and dark, that there really were no clear-cut, obvious heroes. In Warhammer RPG most people start as lowly human beings and work from there onwards. In WAR MMO everyone gets an uber class from the start. I thinks its strange.
Whats your opinion on this? Did the devs ever comment on these decisions?
Comments
Actually they did, way back when. They addressed it with a now over-used quote 'WAR is Batman!'
That quote meant that we've seen lots of different Batmans over the years. The campy 60s Batman, the Tim Burton/Dirty Harry-style Batman, the Christian Bale Batman, the Warner Bros animated Batman, that Anime-style Batman, and the comic Batman.
But they're all Batman - a guy in a batsuit, lots of gadgets and a butler. But each is different. The comparison applies to WAR. It's Mythic's version of the Warhammer world, not the table top game, or the RPG or the novels. Mythic had to make modifications to fit Warhammer into a MMORPG.
The big question is whether or not Mythic will be able to catch the *feel* of the Warhammer setting even with those changes. So far I think they've done a good job, but the proof will be on the release date.
Now regarding the feel of the world, I don't think Warhammer is exclusively a dark and gloomy setting. There is a great deal of humor in it as well. Now it's dark and twisted humor, but humor nonetheless. There's also a kind of joy in Warhammer when you see the cool miniatures and engage in the epic battles even if it is taking place in a dark world.
Warhammer itself isn't a depressing hobby, it's a fun and entertaining hobby. If it wasn't it wouldn't have become as popular as it is. Mythic obviously wants to capture that joy in the game, not depress people, so their game is going to fun and entertaining. Just like Warhammer.
Well, it looks to me like the Dev team just took the general idea from each of the races, and based it entirely off of that. This being my only major gripe with the game.
Wouldn't it be easier to have 3 orc classes and 1 goblin? It makes sense that it would be an Orc Shaman anyways, as that's where most of the power is. Or even making it 3 Goblin classes to 1 Orc class, to make it seem more appropriate with the lore, therefor just grouping the Black Orc and Choppa together, and putting in a night goblin? Empire should just contain a rifleman, knight, warrior priest, and soldier. Dwarves make sense, or it fits into the lore at least. Chaos is fine as well. Dark elves and High Elves, I'm a little iffy with.
All this being from a table-top perspective. I just find stuff like there being 25% of the players mages, as hard to believe. Considering that in a 1000 point game, you would have maybe 3 out of all of your models as mages, and that's as magic heavy as it gets. If you're going to put them in though, do do crap like put in 2 magic classes for the same race (Chaos/Empire/Probably High Elves).<--- Thats just rubbing dirt in the lores face.
Huh, well it's an MMO, and theres no way you could make an MMO that applies to warhammer lore, unless you were doing it like M&B. Shame that that hasn't come to anyones attention. Well then, cheerio.
Ex1: A mage in the Warhammer lore is a very rare sight, and they are powerful enough to single handedly destroy a town.
Ex2: In Warhammer lore, there is no such thing as a mage who isn't powerful. Though there are those who practice magic on a minor level, it is basically a trinket for them.
The reason for this is because it is based off of J.R.R. Tolkien's novels, in which mages are mystical/powerful like Gandalf, but MMOs seem to think that everyone needs to be able to play every situation, regardless of how badly it breaks the lore. I personally wouldn't mind it if there was no large scale magic that was usable by players, as a matter of fact I would prefer it.
I didn't watch Spiderman to see a director's interpretation of what might be a cool version of the Spiderman story, I watched Spiderman to see Spiderman.
Another funny thing is, that if 1 of only 4 available classes is the witchhunter - well, then I suppose there would be no war, just burning every citizen at stake for the sake of heresy:P
Fortunately, in "real" Warhammer Withchunetrs are a very rare, so the empire may fight other stuff, not just poeple accused of heresy.
There are so many factors in choosing classes for an mmorpg and balancing them that pretty much makes it impossible to give everyone what they want plus making the game appealing plus staying 100% accurate to the lore. Especially in an Realm vs. Realm mmo. Just for example you cannot give one realm a caster class and then deny the other side the same possibility. That is an open invitation to rants from people on the side that lacks the ability to play as a caster. If you take out casters completely then you have lost the appeal of all the mmorpg gamers that play caster type classes ( what would a fantasy MMO be without Magic?! That's like a staple.) There has to be some sort of balance made in the system, hence you get 4 archtypes. When you have the 4 archtypes, you have to find the classes from each army to best fit each one. My question would be what other classes (careers) could they have used?
I am not a Warhammer lore master so I can only go on my neophyte knowledge of the universe.
I think that your assumptions of class distribution are over-exaggerated. Many players will play whatever is the most powerful class of them all, others will play what they enjoy playing. For example in WoW, at least back when I played it, hunter happened to be one of the most popular classes in the game with priest being the least played.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
Indeed, but I think he was using some loose numbers there. His point was more about how some of the careers did not fit correctly with the actual Warhammer Lore due to their rarity in the world.
I forget where I heard this, but I remember the developers saying that the players are not taking on the role of typical grunts. Instead the players are more like "special forces" for their faction, and they are basically elite compared to the typical grunt units. So wouldn't it kind of make sense to have the powerful classes in Warhammer lore apart of these elite armies?
AS an old School Table top and WHFRPG fan I am looking forward to WAR.
WHFRPG had more in common with Cthulu than a typical fantasy rpg - you basically would start out as a ratcatcher and advance through different careers as they opened (The CLimax Version of warhammer online basically used this system).
A lot of the old WH lore and games gave the setting a feeling of being dark and gritty as most of the Heroes were just average Joes who managed to win through determination, luck and a bit of skill. IN WAR your character actually equates to a lord or champion choice in WHFB. THe characters were selected to be as iconic and representative of their respective races.
IM sure the game will have lots of visuals, npcs, easter eggs, fluff etc that helps bring the darkness and grit to the forefront.
You are making some false assumptions to begin with. First, there will not be an even distribution of classes. More than likely, the Warrior Priests will be the least played class - healers tend to get underplayed in most games. Wizards will likely be a very popular class as people like things that make other things go boom in most spectacular fashions.
Second, the players do not represent the standard member of their given society. Rather, they are the elite - the best of the best. They are the ones that legends are born from and about whom songs are sang around bar tables. The class selection represents this well.
The WH world is dark and gloomy, to an extent. There is also a great deal of humor built into the world. Hell, the entire greenskin race-set is pure humor. The Dwarves are also pretty damn humorous as they tend to be in most settings.
Remember, this is based more on the table-top than the RPG. The classes are pretty much pulled directly from there. I believe the class selection does an excellent job of representing the core attributes of each race selection.
Powerful magic users are rare in the overall Warhammer world but as other people have pointed out player characters are supposed to be elite champions who become reknown, kingdom-saving heroes. Warhammer wizards are much more common than Gandalf, they have entire colleges dedicated to training them and the Emporer uses them in his armies. If you hang around a college of Magic, you'll see mages all over the place. It's all a matter of which circles you travel in and WAR characters will be traveling in powerful circles, not the commonplace realm of peons.
Also large scale magic is an iconic part of Warhammer battles. Not allowing players to use potent magic would be denying them an important part of Warhammer and I think it would very damaging to the *experience* and enjoyment of playing the game even if restricting magic kept the lore intact.
Mythic has had to make difficult choices about the gameplay experience vs the lore. They have clearly decided to place gameplay first, before the lore, all the time. Which is *exactly* how any good game should be designed. If a developer forgets they are making a game and places the lore over gameplay, then they are on a path to disaster. They can never forget this isn't a novel. It's a game and it's supposed to be fun. If that means the lore has to take hits in order for the game to be fun (for the most people possible, not just the dedicated lore hounds), then so be it.
I can understand how some would be displeased with the changes to the lore that were needed to make a fun game. But such changes are unavoidable. Some people hate the LotR movies because of the changes Peter Jackson made. But more people really liked those movies and are glad they were made.
In the end, I'd rather see an interpretation of Warhammer in a game that has strong game mechanics and fun gameplay than see one that is true to the lore but is less fun to play.
Powerful magic users are rare in the overall Warhammer world but as other people have pointed out player characters are supposed to be elite champions who become reknown, kingdom-saving heroes. Warhammer wizards are much more common than Gandalf, they have entire colleges dedicated to training them and the Emporer uses them in his armies. If you hang around a college of Magic, you'll see mages all over the place. It's all a matter of which circles you travel in and WAR characters will be traveling in powerful circles, not the commonplace realm of peons.
Also large scale magic is an iconic part of Warhammer battles. Not allowing players to use potent magic would be denying them an important part of Warhammer and I think it would very damaging to the *experience* and enjoyment of playing the game even if restricting magic kept the lore intact.
Mythic has had to make difficult choices about the gameplay experience vs the lore. They have clearly decided to place gameplay first, before the lore, all the time. Which is *exactly* how any good game should be designed. If a developer forgets they are making a game and places the lore over gameplay, then they are on a path to disaster. They can never forget this isn't a novel. It's a game and it's supposed to be fun. If that means the lore has to take hits in order for the game to be fun (for the most people possible, not just the dedicated lore hounds), then so be it.
I can understand how some would be displeased with the changes to the lore that were needed to make a fun game. But such changes are unavoidable. Some people hate the LotR movies because of the changes Peter Jackson made. But more people really liked those movies and are glad they were made.
In the end, I'd rather see an interpretation of Warhammer in a game that has strong game mechanics and fun gameplay than see one that is true to the lore but is less fun to play.
I'm would be completely fine with being one of the "elite champions", but in order to do that, we would need at least a 10 to 1 ratio of NPCs to PCs. It may sound a little odd, but there are way to few NPCs in MMOs, and that is one of the problems I see in MMOs. They make you into the cream of the crop, but then they make the cream the majority. There's all sorts of things you could do to a game just by bumping up the level of NPCs.
Trying to represent every NPC that should be present would be both a waste of computer power and a waste of the human resources needed to create them.
Too few NPCs is defintitely not a problem in MMOs - at least I can't say I see it as a problem. I have yet to see an RPG out there that shows 'all' the NPCs that would really be present.
Trying to represent every NPC that should be present would be both a waste of computer power and a waste of the human resources needed to create them.
Too few NPCs is defintitely not a problem in MMOs - at least I can't say I see it as a problem. I have yet to see an RPG out there that shows 'all' the NPCs that would really be present.
There's a reason why you play Master Chief in Halo. People want to play the hero, not some regular grunt. Almost every game is like that, even in MMOs. People want to be the "elite champion" regardless of how it is implemented.
No offense but the NPC issue is hogwash, just use some imagination. I have never been in a game where I said to myself, you know there's just not enough NPCs. At least not in the sense you are talking about.
Not to mention what Xray indicated about the resources needed to make something of that magnitude. Unless maybe you stick them around the world with no scripts (no animations or text etc). I think that may actually make the game less impressive.
Lord of the rings should have to same issue, but they pulled it off.
And Conan should have the same issue too. Mages in Conan were very very powerful, and Conan would still kick their butts.
With the 'everyone will play mages because they are powerful' issue: Yup mages are however going back to the Other white meat: spellcasters' topic, I mentioned these mages within WAR aren't the 'current standard' of mages we see in MMOs today with them running about killing masses within seconds, these mages will be falling back to their D&D roots were although powerful, they are VERY open to attack unless defended (much like the tabletop version in some ways as well), so although many players will start playing a mage their 'weaknesses' will more then likly make many who are used to 'instapowning' re-roll a tank or DPS role.
Back to how faithful WAR is to the lore: As people have said WAR's going to be 'warhammer' just a different verson of it, for intance a lot of it was modded to keep the rating of the game down seeing as reading the Dark Elf lore they are VERY into bondage and blood (and like performing their rites nude), Chaos will be modded slightly due to it's very bloody ways, hell even the Orks are possibily displeased with their lack of swearing, even Empeare could probly have the heavy religus aspect modded....
All that in my eyes is fine due to one big factor: Gamesworkshop have a hand in this, it wasn't just a 'here have the IP and make a MMO based off it', it's more like 'We'll give you the IP but big brother is watching you', so really if the lore was modded to a way displeasing to GW they would 'have a word' with Mythic, so really if it's ok with the big GW it's ok with me as long as I log into WAR and it feels like Warhammer
Bring on the WARRRRGGHH!
Ex1: A mage in the Warhammer lore is a very rare sight, and they are powerful enough to single handedly destroy a town.
Ex2: In Warhammer lore, there is no such thing as a mage who isn't powerful. Though there are those who practice magic on a minor level, it is basically a trinket for them.
The reason for this is because it is based off of J.R.R. Tolkien's novels, in which mages are mystical/powerful like Gandalf, but MMOs seem to think that everyone needs to be able to play every situation, regardless of how badly it breaks the lore. I personally wouldn't mind it if there was no large scale magic that was usable by players, as a matter of fact I would prefer it.
I didn't watch Spiderman to see a director's interpretation of what might be a cool version of the Spiderman story, I watched Spiderman to see Spiderman.
I see your point and lets take a look at WAR from a MMORPG FAN perspective...devils advocate if you will.
There are ALWAYS casters in mmos.
There will always BE casters in mmos.
There is no way to make casters less played and still be incredibly powerful.
Star Wars Galaxies tried to stay true to the lore with the Jedi. Jedi are in a way was your WARHAMMER Lore Mage. They are very powerful and take a LONG LONG time to become a full fledged JEDI. That system wouldnt work with WAR and definitely didnt work with the train wreck that was SWG.
One other thing you said,
"I personally wouldn't mind it if there was no large scale magic that was usable by players, as a matter of fact I would prefer it."
I personally would mind if the only fighting I saw in a mmo was between meat head melee.....
unless I can be the sole OVERPOWERED MAGE :P
What game has insta pwning casters.. (currently)?
What game has insta pwning casters.. (currently)?
http://mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/158494 - posts #4 & #6 explain what i mean
Bring on the WARRRRGGHH!
All lore issues in the game have been approved by Games Workshop, as they have stated many times, GW is very protective of their IP and have to green light every aspect of the lore.
Form the new Chaos Zealots to the male Dark Elf Sorcerers; rest assured GW is looking over the devs shoulders to ensure they do justice to their IP.
What game has insta pwning casters.. (currently)?
http://mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/158494 - posts #4 & #6 explain what i mean
I hate to mention WoW, but I thought thats what you were referring to.
Trying to represent every NPC that should be present would be both a waste of computer power and a waste of the human resources needed to create them.
Too few NPCs is defintitely not a problem in MMOs - at least I can't say I see it as a problem. I have yet to see an RPG out there that shows 'all' the NPCs that would really be present.
I don't mean, every person that would be in every town. I just mean that there ought to be more than there currently are, and twice as many mobs.
What game has insta pwning casters.. (currently)?
http://mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/158494 - posts #4 & #6 explain what i mean
FFXI has prolonged cast times associated with "Ancient" magic, like Flare. I hope WAR follows that trend.I agree, casters have become FAR too spam happy unless they're skilled end game players.
Lastly, removing casters from an MMO would be like taking ANY archetype out and that's just silly.
Some people wish to play as the valiant defender, the devout healer, the lithe assassin or the arcane channeler -- let them.
Lord knows my ADD would kick in hardcore if there were no flashy spells to gawk at in wonderment.
Ex1: A mage in the Warhammer lore is a very rare sight, and they are powerful enough to single handedly destroy a town.
Ex2: In Warhammer lore, there is no such thing as a mage who isn't powerful. Though there are those who practice magic on a minor level, it is basically a trinket for them.
The reason for this is because it is based off of J.R.R. Tolkien's novels, in which mages are mystical/powerful like Gandalf, but MMOs seem to think that everyone needs to be able to play every situation, regardless of how badly it breaks the lore. I personally wouldn't mind it if there was no large scale magic that was usable by players, as a matter of fact I would prefer it.
I didn't watch Spiderman to see a director's interpretation of what might be a cool version of the Spiderman story, I watched Spiderman to see Spiderman.
I see your point and lets take a look at WAR from a MMORPG FAN perspective...devils advocate if you will.
There are ALWAYS casters in mmos.
There will always BE casters in mmos.
There is no way to make casters less played and still be incredibly powerful.
Star Wars Galaxies tried to stay true to the lore with the Jedi. Jedi are in a way was your WARHAMMER Lore Mage. They are very powerful and take a LONG LONG time to become a full fledged JEDI. That system wouldnt work with WAR and definitely didnt work with the train wreck that was SWG.
One other thing you said,
"I personally wouldn't mind it if there was no large scale magic that was usable by players, as a matter of fact I would prefer it."
I personally would mind if the only fighting I saw in a mmo was between meat head melee.....
unless I can be the sole OVERPOWERED MAGE :P
Ever play Mount and Blade? There's no magic there, allthough there are non-combat roles, all the fun is in the combat. Not that you could easily implement a M&B combat system into an MMO, it would be a coold concept to toy with.If you haven't tried the demo I suggest that you do.