If you really believe that the KOTOR MMO will use the Pre-CU System, well then I'm most likely the next in line for the Pope! See the whole Pre-CU system was one of the things that helped SWG fail out the door... You 'want' a big name IP game to be dumbed down, yes that sounds stupid I know... However by keeping the game based on the big name IP dumbed down you'll get more people staying in the game. Remember that was one of the big faults with SWG Pre-CU, people did come and try the game out, and then left due to the system being more for the hardcore MMO Player. Not only that look at Mass Effect, no real 'stats' in the game for the most part. Level based rather then skill based, and much more story driven... Chances are that's what we will see if it ends up being the KOTOR MMO. You will have Classes and Races, it will be somewhat WoW like for the most part, you'll have a few elements from Mass Effect in it as well. And it will be more storydriven rather then SWG's "Here's a Blaster, 100 credits and a Mellon... Welcome to SWG!"
The thing that helped most players out of the game was the Cu nge i was there i know how it went down.
but yes it will be like wow and if it dont get the numbers look out for a new nge, and a new core of disgruntled gamers...........
You know there are 4 million idiots buying teeny pop music- there are also 4 million players in the US playing wow. To me wow is a teeny bop game made very well like a honed teeny bop project. Myself- I prefer sci fi. But I don't expect the bioware MMO to be for "skillful" gamers much like wow. Thats why I found a home in Eve. Pre NGE SWG played a downfall for MMOS in terms of business models per gameplay- and that is what I fear for the future of MMO's- no player houses, no player cities, limited professions. All due to the fact that this type of gameplay is not considered successful now that WoW has damaged the SWG MMO- Good job SOE.
Hundreds of thousands?, A clear exageration, blah, blah the haters and whiners that remain are deminishing quickly as they slowly realise the cold hard truth, nothing they do matters to anyone.
Only time will tell - though it is interesting that we 'haters and whiners' finally managed to choke and apology and an admission of 'serious mistakes' out of John Smedley this year if we were such a small and dwindling minority. Who knows? Maybe next year, we'll force him to give us our classic servers at last.
SWG against a game that has at-best been denied by BIOWARE developers?
We don't even know if there is a KOTOR mmo, and even if there was the chances of it becoming just another grind are astronomical.
the 2 quotes you have in your sig, don't matter anymore, they proved to be false. Bioware is working with lucas arts on new game, and its not indiana jones.
Ill burst your bubble. There wont be a preCU SWG style MMO for the coming years. All the MMO developers with money look at Blizzard and Turbine atm. If there will be a MMO based on KOTOR SW, you will get something based on WoW or LOTRO gamemechanics with a marketing department saying that it is groundbreaking new. I'm afraid that those big companies see PreCU as a niche game. They prefer to see the mass of casual players playing their game. A much easier (and larger) to satisfy crowd that doesnt need a second life in a game. Your hope rests with the smaller companies that take time to develop something. And then there is still a large chance that they wont pull it off in time or simply cant in the end. Disclaimer: This has nothing to do what I personally would like to see in a MMO.
EDIT: If Vanguard or Dark & Light turned out to be a succes, things might have looked different. But every failure of a sandbox kind of MMO, will make less likely that those big companies have another attempt at a features packed sandbox MMO.
Read this post..digest and understand that this guy speaks a lot of sense..its the moneymen that drive games not devs or "Visionaries" like Koster and mcquaid.
Quest driven,level based MMO's will be the main stay of the genre for a lot of years to come its time to get used to the idea IMO
Having found the links in the thread its got to be said this nonsence about telling anyone what the game is going to be is albeit slowly starting to have a negative effect why the hell dont they just come out and say its game x set in the year X blah,blah that "interview" was one of the most blandest things ive ever read..it told me nothing that frankly ive not heard before (and from other devs teams too) ohh and they like to play WOW and LoTR enough already get it out in the open balls to lawsuits if its a star wars MMO tell us..buy off SOE and be damned with it,all this teasing leaves me with the distinct impression that they're far from certain about thier game (star wars or more likely otherwise).
the mmo market is growing fast and not everyone can have a piece of the WoW pie. Some are eventually going to offer Mt. Dew instead of another coke/pepsi. I don't know when that will be but it will certainly come at the inevitable point of saturation, when the "WoW" market is too competitive and it's more practical to make a different type of game to acquire a decent income.
Ill burst your bubble. There wont be a preCU SWG style MMO for the coming years. All the MMO developers with money look at Blizzard and Turbine atm. If there will be a MMO based on KOTOR SW, you will get something based on WoW or LOTRO gamemechanics with a marketing department saying that it is groundbreaking new. I'm afraid that those big companies see PreCU as a niche game. They prefer to see the mass of casual players playing their game. A much easier (and larger) to satisfy crowd that doesnt need a second life in a game. Your hope rests with the smaller companies that take time to develop something. And then there is still a large chance that they wont pull it off in time or simply cant in the end. Disclaimer: This has nothing to do what I personally would like to see in a MMO.
EDIT: If Vanguard or Dark & Light turned out to be a succes, things might have looked different. But every failure of a sandbox kind of MMO, will make less likely that those big companies have another attempt at a features packed sandbox MMO.
Read this post..digest and understand that this guy speaks a lot of sense..its the moneymen that drive games not devs or "Visionaries" like Koster and mcquaid.
Quest driven,level based MMO's will be the main stay of the genre for a lot of years to come its time to get used to the idea IMO
See now this is where I have to disagree. When a market becomes saturated (as we're really seeing now with MMO's) then the "niche" becomes vital to it's survivability. It's a saturated market that will cause developers to look at innovation and a unique gaming experience to draw in new subs.
They will simply have to adapt and offer something that other games do not.
This is why I have to laugh at SOE. They were years ahead of everyone else in this aspect, but the knee-jerk reaction they took when looking at WoW has obviously set them down the "trend follower" path rather then the "trend setter" path.
My main concern now is for SOE's The Agency and it's micro-transaction buisness model. If this is what the industry feels is innovation then god help us all, at least in the short term.
I'll say this at the start: I'm an SWG pre-CU vet, and I judge MMOs by that standard. I think that there is a great market for a Star Wars MMO ever since the SoE disaster struck SWG. I understand people's fears that the forums will be filled with hordes of SWG refugees pressuring for another pre-CU. I love KotOR, and it as a pretty unique and different system from SWG. I believe that KotOR has the potential to redefine what a good Star Wars MMO really should be. Lets face it, while SWG was certainly the best MMO of its time, it had a significant amount of problem areas:
No collision system, people shooting through houses unpredictable economy (devs had no idea how good stuff was going to be because of how the resources worked) no dual wielding overpowered buffs anti-wookiee racists. I mean come on! its a fucking MMO, people should be tolerant
The KotOR system has a very different kind of character customization when compared to that of SWG, but a KotOR MMO with multiple classes has the potential to have just as much variability. Think about it, you have feats, skill, and force powers to choose from. With different kinds of classes you could potentially add things other than force powers (for the non jedi classes). This means, that even within classes, there could be a huge degree of customization. The game is based heavily off the D20 system, so why not add multiclassing like with Dungeons and Dragons (tabletop, cause, like, who gives a fuck about the MMO?). The only thing that I can really see problems with is the zoning, if they do it like they did in the first 2 KotORs, and the fact that a big part of KotOR was the party members. They probably shouldn't stick with the turn based combat either.
There is, of course, the chance that they are not working on a KotOR MMO at all, but they should be. Think about it, if half the people here are for it, that must represent a small portion of MMORPG.com that is for it, and an even smaller portion of the greater online community who would be interested in such a game. The market is definitely there. Well, thats my 2 cents.
I am not convinced that it will be based off of the d20 system. The only d20 used for a MMO (DDO) was not a big success. We already know that the new MMO (whether it is a SW or not) is quest driven. If they went that model based on past MMO successes (like WOW) then I don't see them going with a play system (like d20) that was not as successful. However, if they went with quests due to their experience (KOTOR); we might see a d20 MMO. I still doubt it.
While I am a SWG vet, I think we should let go of the PRE-CU dream. It's time to move on. While PRE-CU was far superior to NGE (my opinion), I still remember that the system did have its issues. Besides DDO, I never met a game that liked to lag so much. While I currently play EVE and prefer the skill based system, I hope that Bioware puts out an MMO that is not only good but is better than PRE-CU, CU, NGE, WOW, EQ2 and Eve. That's whether it's classed or skill based.
For starters I'll just be happy if it's a Star Wars game that works properly, and if no one comes along and steals my pants (re. the implementation of armour certification).
More seriously though, if it's StarWars, if it works (that's huge btw), if it lets StarWars fans have fun together in our favourite happy place, and if they don't take away and/or break the things we've worked on for ages (also huge), I'd be pretty darn satisfied. I like quest stuff and sandbox both.
I just want to play Star Wars, not Jedi Wars
star wars without jedis is not star wars, and not having the ability to play a jedi people might as well play some other sci-fi game.
Having other options besides jedi are nice to have, but not having an option to play as one totaly sucks.
For starters I'll just be happy if it's a Star Wars game that works properly, and if no one comes along and steals my pants (re. the implementation of armour certification).
More seriously though, if it's StarWars, if it works (that's huge btw), if it lets StarWars fans have fun together in our favourite happy place, and if they don't take away and/or break the things we've worked on for ages (also huge), I'd be pretty darn satisfied. I like quest stuff and sandbox both.
I just want to play Star Wars, not Jedi Wars
star wars without jedis is not star wars, and not having the ability to play a jedi people might as well play some other sci-fi game.
Having other options besides jedi are nice to have, but not having an option to play as one totaly sucks.
Jedi is hard to balance in MMORPG. If they are as powerfull as others they really aren't jedi and if they are "alpha class" everyone have to be one to compete in pvp.
Back in pre-cu SWG most of the jedi really ruined the mood by running around the starports dueling and yelling "lol noobs" etc. So I would not mind at all if there was no playable jedi. (this ofc if the timeline of the game is same as SWG. KotOR timelime would be different thing)
Jedi is hard to balance in MMORPG. If they are as powerfull as others they really aren't jedi and if they are "alpha class" everyone have to be one to compete in pvp. Back in pre-cu SWG most of the jedi really ruined the mood by running around the starports dueling and yelling "lol noobs" etc. So I would not mind at all if there was no playable jedi. (this ofc if the timeline of the game is same as SWG. KotOR timelime would be different thing)
This is percisely why permadeath worked, though many Jedi disagreed.
Jedi was just fine before all the damned balancing came into play. You got the power you were due for your hard work and always had to be careful using it.
-- xpaladin
[MMOz] AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
I'll say this at the start: I'm an SWG pre-CU vet, and I judge MMOs by that standard. I think that there is a great market for a Star Wars MMO ever since the SoE disaster struck SWG. I understand people's fears that the forums will be filled with hordes of SWG refugees pressuring for another pre-CU. I love KotOR, and it as a pretty unique and different system from SWG. I believe that KotOR has the potential to redefine what a good Star Wars MMO really should be. Lets face it, while SWG was certainly the best MMO of its time, it had a significant amount of problem areas:
No collision system, people shooting through houses unpredictable economy (devs had no idea how good stuff was going to be because of how the resources worked) no dual wielding overpowered buffs anti-wookiee racists. I mean come on! its a fucking MMO, people should be tolerant
The KotOR system has a very different kind of character customization when compared to that of SWG, but a KotOR MMO with multiple classes has the potential to have just as much variability. Think about it, you have feats, skill, and force powers to choose from. With different kinds of classes you could potentially add things other than force powers (for the non jedi classes). This means, that even within classes, there could be a huge degree of customization. The game is based heavily off the D20 system, so why not add multiclassing like with Dungeons and Dragons (tabletop, cause, like, who gives a fuck about the MMO?). The only thing that I can really see problems with is the zoning, if they do it like they did in the first 2 KotORs, and the fact that a big part of KotOR was the party members. They probably shouldn't stick with the turn based combat either.
There is, of course, the chance that they are not working on a KotOR MMO at all, but they should be. Think about it, if half the people here are for it, that must represent a small portion of MMORPG.com that is for it, and an even smaller portion of the greater online community who would be interested in such a game. The market is definitely there. Well, thats my 2 cents.
I am not convinced that it will be based off of the d20 system. The only d20 used for a MMO (DDO) was not a big success. We already know that the new MMO (whether it is a SW or not) is quest driven. If they went that model based on past MMO successes (like WOW) then I don't see them going with a play system (like d20) that was not as successful. However, if they went with quests due to their experience (KOTOR); we might see a d20 MMO. I still doubt it.
While I am a SWG vet, I think we should let go of the PRE-CU dream. It's time to move on. While PRE-CU was far superior to NGE (my opinion), I still remember that the system did have its issues. Besides DDO, I never met a game that liked to lag so much. While I currently play EVE and prefer the skill based system, I hope that Bioware puts out an MMO that is not only good but is better than PRE-CU, CU, NGE, WOW, EQ2 and Eve. That's whether it's classed or skill based.
You CAN NOT base an MMO off of the d20 system. d20 means you have 20 points of variability, and once that 20 point range is stretched, the whole system breaks. If you have +30 to hit as a warrior and I have +10 as a caster, then you can't balance the game, it's broken. If you balance it for the warrior, the caster will only hit 1/20 times, and if you balance it for the caster, the warrior will only miss 1/20 times.
And lets face it, an MMO will scale well past +30, simply because developers want to give the players tangible character growth, and they will want more than 30 points of growth throughout a character's life.
d20 itself is broke, but in a tabletop game a smart DM can circumvent these issues by giving all players unique challenges. Also, most people just play lower-levels in tabletop and never see the flaws of d20 exposed.
For starters I'll just be happy if it's a Star Wars game that works properly, and if no one comes along and steals my pants (re. the implementation of armour certification).
More seriously though, if it's StarWars, if it works (that's huge btw), if it lets StarWars fans have fun together in our favourite happy place, and if they don't take away and/or break the things we've worked on for ages (also huge), I'd be pretty darn satisfied. I like quest stuff and sandbox both.
I just want to play Star Wars, not Jedi Wars
star wars without jedis is not star wars, and not having the ability to play a jedi people might as well play some other sci-fi game.
Having other options besides jedi are nice to have, but not having an option to play as one totaly sucks.
When SWG launched it was impossible to unlock jedi, and hundreds of thousands of people still played the game and enjoyed it.
Take a step back and re-watch the first three films. Jedi were not so prominent at all, and weren't (to me at least) the center fixture of what makes up Star Wars. The planet Tatooine was more 'starwarsy' to me than a lightsaber.
Originally posted by aristoculous Originally posted by egr4405 Originally posted by ArcAngel3 For starters I'll just be happy if it's a Star Wars game that works properly, and if no one comes along and steals my pants (re. the implementation of armour certification).
More seriously though, if it's StarWars, if it works (that's huge btw), if it lets StarWars fans have fun together in our favourite happy place, and if they don't take away and/or break the things we've worked on for ages (also huge), I'd be pretty darn satisfied. I like quest stuff and sandbox both.
I just want to play Star Wars, not Jedi Wars
star wars without jedis is not star wars, and not having the ability to play a jedi people might as well play some other sci-fi game.
Having other options besides jedi are nice to have, but not having an option to play as one totaly sucks. Not entirely, the Extended Universe of Star Wars doesn't really evolve around Jedi at all, that's where things like Teras Kasi, Nightsister/Singing Mountain Clan and other NPCs you see around the game comes from. The Clone Wars cartoons were exactly opposite of that, it was all about Jedi, Jedi is what attracts the new generation of Star Wars fans- unfortunately otherwise we could have still gone on OK with maybe NPC Jedi and few rewarded player Jedi that was originally planned.
When I first got SWG I didn't even think of Jedi, I didn't care about it, and the game was fun before the first Jedi came around then everyone wanted to play one.
When SWG launched it was impossible to unlock jedi, and hundreds of thousands of people still played the game and enjoyed it. Take a step back and re-watch the first three films. Jedi were not so prominent at all, and weren't (to me at least) the center fixture of what makes up Star Wars. The planet Tatooine was more 'starwarsy' to me than a lightsaber.
Yes, but we didn't know at the time it was impossible to unlock Jedi. SOE kept that little secret to themsleves. A large number of those "hundreds of thousands" were looking to unlock Jedi.
The eventual number of glow sticks demonstrates that a large number of people want to play a Jedi. I unfortunately believe we who do not are in the minority.
star wars = the force. Jedi are usually the characters used to tell the story about "the force". But if you take "the force" out of star wars then all you have is a war movie set in the future. No big blockbuster, no international sensation, no "Star Wars". So in a way, jedi are the main ingredient in the star wars phenomenon.
star wars = the force. Jedi are usually the characters used to tell the story about "the force". But if you take "the force" out of star wars then all you have is a war movie set in the future. No big blockbuster, no international sensation, no "Star Wars". So in a way, jedi are the main ingredient in the star wars phenomenon.
You've the modernized midichlorian understanding of Star Wars, sonny.
Taking us back to the original movie here -- the main conflict was rebels versus the evil galactic empire. The Force was pivotal, sure, but there was an all out war going on against a very evil oppressor. Rebels were getting the beat down from the Empire well before Luke even heard the word "lightsaber."
The other movies put more emphasis on the relationships between Luke, Leia, Obi-Won, Yoda, Palpatine, and Anakin. Five and a half (or arguably four and three quarters) Jedi in a *galaxy* full of regular, non-descript sentients using blasters, bots, sticks and stones to win the war(s).
Yes, even in the prequels.
-- xpaladin
[MMOz] AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
Originally posted by Suvroc Quite frankly I was much more interested in Han,Chewie and Jabba then I was any Jedi crap. Oh, and of course Leia in the gold bikini!
I'm not saying nobody prefers the non-force related parts of star wars, but the force is what made star wars into a world wide phenomenon.
I'll say this at the start: I'm an SWG pre-CU vet, and I judge MMOs by that standard. I think that there is a great market for a Star Wars MMO ever since the SoE disaster struck SWG. I understand people's fears that the forums will be filled with hordes of SWG refugees pressuring for another pre-CU. I love KotOR, and it as a pretty unique and different system from SWG. I believe that KotOR has the potential to redefine what a good Star Wars MMO really should be. Lets face it, while SWG was certainly the best MMO of its time, it had a significant amount of problem areas:
No collision system, people shooting through houses unpredictable economy (devs had no idea how good stuff was going to be because of how the resources worked) no dual wielding overpowered buffs anti-wookiee racists. I mean come on! its a fucking MMO, people should be tolerant
The KotOR system has a very different kind of character customization when compared to that of SWG, but a KotOR MMO with multiple classes has the potential to have just as much variability. Think about it, you have feats, skill, and force powers to choose from. With different kinds of classes you could potentially add things other than force powers (for the non jedi classes). This means, that even within classes, there could be a huge degree of customization. The game is based heavily off the D20 system, so why not add multiclassing like with Dungeons and Dragons (tabletop, cause, like, who gives a fuck about the MMO?). The only thing that I can really see problems with is the zoning, if they do it like they did in the first 2 KotORs, and the fact that a big part of KotOR was the party members. They probably shouldn't stick with the turn based combat either.
There is, of course, the chance that they are not working on a KotOR MMO at all, but they should be. Think about it, if half the people here are for it, that must represent a small portion of MMORPG.com that is for it, and an even smaller portion of the greater online community who would be interested in such a game. The market is definitely there. Well, thats my 2 cents.
I am not convinced that it will be based off of the d20 system. The only d20 used for a MMO (DDO) was not a big success. We already know that the new MMO (whether it is a SW or not) is quest driven. If they went that model based on past MMO successes (like WOW) then I don't see them going with a play system (like d20) that was not as successful. However, if they went with quests due to their experience (KOTOR); we might see a d20 MMO. I still doubt it.
While I am a SWG vet, I think we should let go of the PRE-CU dream. It's time to move on. While PRE-CU was far superior to NGE (my opinion), I still remember that the system did have its issues. Besides DDO, I never met a game that liked to lag so much. While I currently play EVE and prefer the skill based system, I hope that Bioware puts out an MMO that is not only good but is better than PRE-CU, CU, NGE, WOW, EQ2 and Eve. That's whether it's classed or skill based.
You CAN NOT base an MMO off of the d20 system. d20 means you have 20 points of variability, and once that 20 point range is stretched, the whole system breaks. If you have +30 to hit as a warrior and I have +10 as a caster, then you can't balance the game, it's broken. If you balance it for the warrior, the caster will only hit 1/20 times, and if you balance it for the caster, the warrior will only miss 1/20 times.
And lets face it, an MMO will scale well past +30, simply because developers want to give the players tangible character growth, and they will want more than 30 points of growth throughout a character's life.
d20 itself is broke, but in a tabletop game a smart DM can circumvent these issues by giving all players unique challenges. Also, most people just play lower-levels in tabletop and never see the flaws of d20 exposed.
d20 can be broke; it really depends on what you allow in your individual campaign. However, this is an MMO board. I don't think arguing the merits and demerits of a PnP game is appropriate.
Someone has based an MMO off of the d20 system (however loosely); it's called Dungeons and Dragons Online. I don't think it'll be implemented for the numerical limitations in Bioware's game. I don't think the +30 vs +10 example is a good one. When comparing BAB to AC, at higher levels d20 is designed to give players and NPCs the ability to hit at least once every round. The real challenge is not getting hit by the following attacks. When comparing BAB to BAB, wizards have their own attack abilities that are not necessarily limited by their low BAB. They are balanced in ways that are not reflected by BAB such as role.
d20 is a different style of play when compared to alot of MMO's; however, I'm sure someone smart enough can make it work. The real numerical limitation deals more with human nature. Players like to see larger numbers when it comes to their own progression. Even if the percentages do not change at all, we tend to feel better when we have an unreasonably high ability score. That is the major limitation I see with d20.
Personally, I don't think they went with the d20 system.
Comments
but yes it will be like wow and if it dont get the numbers look out for a new nge, and a new core of disgruntled gamers...........
You know there are 4 million idiots buying teeny pop music- there are also 4 million players in the US playing wow. To me wow is a teeny bop game made very well like a honed teeny bop project. Myself- I prefer sci fi. But I don't expect the bioware MMO to be for "skillful" gamers much like wow. Thats why I found a home in Eve. Pre NGE SWG played a downfall for MMOS in terms of business models per gameplay- and that is what I fear for the future of MMO's- no player houses, no player cities, limited professions. All due to the fact that this type of gameplay is not considered successful now that WoW has damaged the SWG MMO- Good job SOE.
LOL - what the hell- thats funny!~
Only time will tell - though it is interesting that we 'haters and whiners' finally managed to choke and apology and an admission of 'serious mistakes' out of John Smedley this year if we were such a small and dwindling minority. Who knows? Maybe next year, we'll force him to give us our classic servers at last.
Meanwhile, see you in Kotor Online!
the 2 quotes you have in your sig, don't matter anymore, they proved to be false. Bioware is working with lucas arts on new game, and its not indiana jones.
Read this post..digest and understand that this guy speaks a lot of sense..its the moneymen that drive games not devs or "Visionaries" like Koster and mcquaid.
Quest driven,level based MMO's will be the main stay of the genre for a lot of years to come its time to get used to the idea IMO
Having found the links in the thread its got to be said this nonsence about telling anyone what the game is going to be is albeit slowly starting to have a negative effect why the hell dont they just come out and say its game x set in the year X blah,blah that "interview" was one of the most blandest things ive ever read..it told me nothing that frankly ive not heard before (and from other devs teams too) ohh and they like to play WOW and LoTR enough already get it out in the open balls to lawsuits if its a star wars MMO tell us..buy off SOE and be damned with it,all this teasing leaves me with the distinct impression that they're far from certain about thier game (star wars or more likely otherwise).
the mmo market is growing fast and not everyone can have a piece of the WoW pie. Some are eventually going to offer Mt. Dew instead of another coke/pepsi. I don't know when that will be but it will certainly come at the inevitable point of saturation, when the "WoW" market is too competitive and it's more practical to make a different type of game to acquire a decent income.
Quest driven,level based MMO's will be the main stay of the genre for a lot of years to come its time to get used to the idea IMO
See now this is where I have to disagree. When a market becomes saturated (as we're really seeing now with MMO's) then the "niche" becomes vital to it's survivability. It's a saturated market that will cause developers to look at innovation and a unique gaming experience to draw in new subs.
They will simply have to adapt and offer something that other games do not.
This is why I have to laugh at SOE. They were years ahead of everyone else in this aspect, but the knee-jerk reaction they took when looking at WoW has obviously set them down the "trend follower" path rather then the "trend setter" path.
My main concern now is for SOE's The Agency and it's micro-transaction buisness model. If this is what the industry feels is innovation then god help us all, at least in the short term.
While I am a SWG vet, I think we should let go of the PRE-CU dream. It's time to move on. While PRE-CU was far superior to NGE (my opinion), I still remember that the system did have its issues. Besides DDO, I never met a game that liked to lag so much. While I currently play EVE and prefer the skill based system, I hope that Bioware puts out an MMO that is not only good but is better than PRE-CU, CU, NGE, WOW, EQ2 and Eve. That's whether it's classed or skill based.
star wars without jedis is not star wars, and not having the ability to play a jedi people might as well play some other sci-fi game.I just want to play Star Wars, not Jedi Wars
Having other options besides jedi are nice to have, but not having an option to play as one totaly sucks.
I really enjoyed KOTOR, but not SWG not after the "killer patch" anyhow.
And I NEVER heard anyone say "I didnt like KOTOR" that is all I can say .
star wars without jedis is not star wars, and not having the ability to play a jedi people might as well play some other sci-fi game.I just want to play Star Wars, not Jedi Wars
Having other options besides jedi are nice to have, but not having an option to play as one totaly sucks.
Jedi is hard to balance in MMORPG. If they are as powerfull as others they really aren't jedi and if they are "alpha class" everyone have to be one to compete in pvp.
Back in pre-cu SWG most of the jedi really ruined the mood by running around the starports dueling and yelling "lol noobs" etc. So I would not mind at all if there was no playable jedi. (this ofc if the timeline of the game is same as SWG. KotOR timelime would be different thing)
This is percisely why permadeath worked, though many Jedi disagreed.
Jedi was just fine before all the damned balancing came into play. You got the power you were due for your hard work and always had to be careful using it.
-- xpaladin
[MMOz]
AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
While I am a SWG vet, I think we should let go of the PRE-CU dream. It's time to move on. While PRE-CU was far superior to NGE (my opinion), I still remember that the system did have its issues. Besides DDO, I never met a game that liked to lag so much. While I currently play EVE and prefer the skill based system, I hope that Bioware puts out an MMO that is not only good but is better than PRE-CU, CU, NGE, WOW, EQ2 and Eve. That's whether it's classed or skill based.
You CAN NOT base an MMO off of the d20 system. d20 means you have 20 points of variability, and once that 20 point range is stretched, the whole system breaks. If you have +30 to hit as a warrior and I have +10 as a caster, then you can't balance the game, it's broken. If you balance it for the warrior, the caster will only hit 1/20 times, and if you balance it for the caster, the warrior will only miss 1/20 times.
And lets face it, an MMO will scale well past +30, simply because developers want to give the players tangible character growth, and they will want more than 30 points of growth throughout a character's life.
d20 itself is broke, but in a tabletop game a smart DM can circumvent these issues by giving all players unique challenges. Also, most people just play lower-levels in tabletop and never see the flaws of d20 exposed.
star wars without jedis is not star wars, and not having the ability to play a jedi people might as well play some other sci-fi game.I just want to play Star Wars, not Jedi Wars
Having other options besides jedi are nice to have, but not having an option to play as one totaly sucks.
When SWG launched it was impossible to unlock jedi, and hundreds of thousands of people still played the game and enjoyed it.
Take a step back and re-watch the first three films. Jedi were not so prominent at all, and weren't (to me at least) the center fixture of what makes up Star Wars. The planet Tatooine was more 'starwarsy' to me than a lightsaber.
I just want to play Star Wars, not Jedi Wars
star wars without jedis is not star wars, and not having the ability to play a jedi people might as well play some other sci-fi game.
Having other options besides jedi are nice to have, but not having an option to play as one totaly sucks.
Not entirely, the Extended Universe of Star Wars doesn't really evolve around Jedi at all, that's where things like Teras Kasi, Nightsister/Singing Mountain Clan and other NPCs you see around the game comes from. The Clone Wars cartoons were exactly opposite of that, it was all about Jedi, Jedi is what attracts the new generation of Star Wars fans- unfortunately otherwise we could have still gone on OK with maybe NPC Jedi and few rewarded player Jedi that was originally planned.
When I first got SWG I didn't even think of Jedi, I didn't care about it, and the game was fun before the first Jedi came around then everyone wanted to play one.
Yes, but we didn't know at the time it was impossible to unlock Jedi. SOE kept that little secret to themsleves. A large number of those "hundreds of thousands" were looking to unlock Jedi.
The eventual number of glow sticks demonstrates that a large number of people want to play a Jedi. I unfortunately believe we who do not are in the minority.
star wars = the force. Jedi are usually the characters used to tell the story about "the force". But if you take "the force" out of star wars then all you have is a war movie set in the future. No big blockbuster, no international sensation, no "Star Wars". So in a way, jedi are the main ingredient in the star wars phenomenon.
Taking us back to the original movie here -- the main conflict was rebels versus the evil galactic empire. The Force was pivotal, sure, but there was an all out war going on against a very evil oppressor. Rebels were getting the beat down from the Empire well before Luke even heard the word "lightsaber."
The other movies put more emphasis on the relationships between Luke, Leia, Obi-Won, Yoda, Palpatine, and Anakin. Five and a half (or arguably four and three quarters) Jedi in a *galaxy* full of regular, non-descript sentients using blasters, bots, sticks and stones to win the war(s).
Yes, even in the prequels.
-- xpaladin
[MMOz]
AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
the force was certainly pivotal.
Quite frankly I was much more interested in Han,Chewie and Jabba then I was any Jedi crap.
Oh, and of course Leia in the gold bikini!
I'm not saying nobody prefers the non-force related parts of star wars, but the force is what made star wars into a world wide phenomenon.
While I am a SWG vet, I think we should let go of the PRE-CU dream. It's time to move on. While PRE-CU was far superior to NGE (my opinion), I still remember that the system did have its issues. Besides DDO, I never met a game that liked to lag so much. While I currently play EVE and prefer the skill based system, I hope that Bioware puts out an MMO that is not only good but is better than PRE-CU, CU, NGE, WOW, EQ2 and Eve. That's whether it's classed or skill based.
You CAN NOT base an MMO off of the d20 system. d20 means you have 20 points of variability, and once that 20 point range is stretched, the whole system breaks. If you have +30 to hit as a warrior and I have +10 as a caster, then you can't balance the game, it's broken. If you balance it for the warrior, the caster will only hit 1/20 times, and if you balance it for the caster, the warrior will only miss 1/20 times.
And lets face it, an MMO will scale well past +30, simply because developers want to give the players tangible character growth, and they will want more than 30 points of growth throughout a character's life.
d20 itself is broke, but in a tabletop game a smart DM can circumvent these issues by giving all players unique challenges. Also, most people just play lower-levels in tabletop and never see the flaws of d20 exposed.
d20 can be broke; it really depends on what you allow in your individual campaign. However, this is an MMO board. I don't think arguing the merits and demerits of a PnP game is appropriate.Someone has based an MMO off of the d20 system (however loosely); it's called Dungeons and Dragons Online. I don't think it'll be implemented for the numerical limitations in Bioware's game. I don't think the +30 vs +10 example is a good one. When comparing BAB to AC, at higher levels d20 is designed to give players and NPCs the ability to hit at least once every round. The real challenge is not getting hit by the following attacks. When comparing BAB to BAB, wizards have their own attack abilities that are not necessarily limited by their low BAB. They are balanced in ways that are not reflected by BAB such as role.
d20 is a different style of play when compared to alot of MMO's; however, I'm sure someone smart enough can make it work. The real numerical limitation deals more with human nature. Players like to see larger numbers when it comes to their own progression. Even if the percentages do not change at all, we tend to feel better when we have an unreasonably high ability score. That is the major limitation I see with d20.
Personally, I don't think they went with the d20 system.