question about character balancing in pvp type games.

sarrac01

how important is it that each class can fight another class to a stand still. ive never been upset by games that sport character types that werent as savey in the realm of pvp as long as they had something to offset this.

for instance i dont  expect a healing class to do as well in combat EVER. his job imo is to heal, and depending on his classmates to keep him alive. xp could be gained from healing instead of killing and since its harder to find someone to heal than it is to find something to kill ( as in solo) then healing xp should be much greater than the xp , say, a caster would get from 2 shotting a mob to death.

 

instead in every mmo ive played theres a cry for balancing classes versus each other. if there's a class that cant take other classes 1 vs 1 its labled gimped. why , instead, cant such classes perform a valued talent that would make them , in their own way, even more valuable than a class that can simply win in a fight.

 

otherwise , after balancing, they all feel the same. losing all originality.

 

whats your thought.?

Czzarre

I dont believe there has to be perfect balance between classes. WoW dug themselves a hole with thier PvP when they added small PvP tournements in the arena with rewards. So if your MMORPG's PvP is based on small intimate combat or duels, classes should be closely balanced.

DAOC (and perhaps WAR) has taken a different approach because it is based on larger scale combat (>=8/side). Instead of making sure each one of the classes (Like 20ish) are balanced against the other 20, they made PvP balance a balance of the realms. o every side had a class that had abilities similar to others and each had counters etc, It was up to the players and groups to ensure they had a class to provide it.

For me, all I want to do is have a chance to be productive in PvP. I want to be able to do something and fight. If a game is full of 1 shoting or Insta permanent immobalization...then I consider it out of balance. If I lose 10 out of 10 times, but Im still able to put up a good fight, have fun, and help my team,  then IM fine with that

Torrential

airhead

Originally posted by sarrac01


how important is it that each class can fight another class to a stand still. ive never been upset by games that sport character types that werent as savey in the realm of pvp as long as they had something to offset this.
for instance i dont  expect a healing class to do as well in combat EVER. his job imo is to heal, and depending on his classmates to keep him alive. xp could be gained from healing instead of killing and since its harder to find someone to heal than it is to find something to kill ( as in solo) then healing xp should be much greater than the xp , say, a caster would get from 2 shotting a mob to death.
 
instead in every mmo ive played theres a cry for balancing classes versus each other. if there's a class that cant take other classes 1 vs 1 its labled gimped. why , instead, cant such classes perform a valued talent that would make them , in their own way, even more valuable than a class that can simply win in a fight.
 
otherwise , after balancing, they all feel the same. losing all originality.
 
whats your thought.?

If everyone is the same, might as well play CSS or UT. Anyone complaining about 'unfairness' in an mmorpg has forgotten what game they were playing.

But to always loose in a pvp scenario is depressing, and people will not do that for too long. Hence the idea of rock-paper-scissors. What if you did this: have x classes in a game, and every class had at least one other class they would most likely (90%) beat, and one class they would most likely loose to, and all the other matchups were close to 50-50 random. I think that's the theory that many mmorpg's at least say they are trying to do. That would make some fairly interesting group-vs-group gameplay imo.

Unknown

Originally posted by sarrac01


how important is it that each class can fight another class to a stand still. ive never been upset by games that sport character types that werent as savey in the realm of pvp as long as they had something to offset this.
for instance i dont  expect a healing class to do as well in combat EVER. his job imo is to heal, and depending on his classmates to keep him alive. xp could be gained from healing instead of killing and since its harder to find someone to heal than it is to find something to kill ( as in solo) then healing xp should be much greater than the xp , say, a caster would get from 2 shotting a mob to death.
 
instead in every mmo ive played theres a cry for balancing classes versus each other. if there's a class that cant take other classes 1 vs 1 its labled gimped. why , instead, cant such classes perform a valued talent that would make them , in their own way, even more valuable than a class that can simply win in a fight.
 
otherwise , after balancing, they all feel the same. losing all originality.
 
whats your thought.?

Static predictable classes suck in all PvP games.  Guild Wars got it right.  There are various roles and various classes can fill them in various ways.  You can only choose a couple out of the potential you have. 

This way your opponent has to stay on his toes and can't simply apply a formula to your class.  Other classes are not limited by your class' "signature" role.  And there turn out to be multiple ways to play or fill a role.

EQ clones like WoW sucks compared to Guild Wars in an arena style environment.  There is no startegy or tactics involved in making a team.  Whereas team make up is highly complex and often involves feints.

A Guild Wars team will often purposely mask who is their main healer by taking some confusing skills.  You won't know if the Elementalist/Monk or the Monk/Elementalist is the nuker or the healer.  Or sometimes they are both healers with one spike spell so that they contribute as the bedrock of the defense but also tip the spike enough to be immediately lethal.

The Guild Wars setup is, in all regards, superior.  Not only do I know pretty much exactly what every priest is going to do with a few minor variations, but I can look them up on armoury and know exactly what their loadout is.  In Guild Wars all I know is that a player is good, in one match they could play an interrupt Mesmer the next they could play Hex degeneration mesmer and I would no idea until I see them use their skills.

Obviously a Warrior/Ranger is not going to have any significant healing other than self healing, so you can draw a number of inferences about a team, but locked down static classes like EQ clones have are pretty much crap for PvP.

The rigid roles mean the Devs have already predetermined your PvP strategy.  There is nothing intrinsically wrong with what you are saying but for those people who want to solo with a healing class they are gimp.  Because you msut have some sort of offense, even a somewhat weak one.  And for those who want a team made of jack of all trades rather than specialists they will also be gimp.

Its not that they are ineffective.  Its that the Devs have designed the game so that everyone plays their way not the way players want to play.  When a class does not meet what they want they call it gimp.

MR-Bubbles

There are 2 problems with Ballancing a class based PvP game.

1. If you succed in Ballancing all classes in a PvP MMO you will get boring predicable PvP as everyone will be just as likely to win as anyone else the only thing that will differentuate between players is responce times.

2. If you succeed with ballancing a PvP MMO you will still get people who will lose at PvP [becuase they are slower] and they will whine on the forums that there class needs boosting to be ballanced or other classes are too powerfull. And eventually as they get more inventive in there whines it will force the devs to do it either becuase they agree to some level or they just want the whining to stop.

 

Course i dont see this ever happening in my MMO as it has no classes and all the ships are pretty much ballanced from day 1.

 

Unless you use Amarr technology.