Cartooney, safe, simple, mindless, corporate, dumbed down mmo that's directed the mmo market into a horrid relm of big buisness destroying much of the innovation in place of market study of what can get the masses. Dare any new MMO coming out defy this mold? I will always refuse to play junk like this.
Blizzard isn't some evil empire out to destroy MMOs. They have a long track record of releasing fun games that are successful. They even hired high profile EQ players to help make sure WoW was fun. The problems as I see it are two fold. 1) the market pre-wow and for the few years after was dominated by bad games that release half finished buggy games depending on people to pay-to-beta for several years after launch or were just filled with mechanics that were nothing but roadblocks/time sinks to having fun. It was a very weak market that delivered gameplay in favor of game companies instead of players. Quality wasn't a word often associated with MMO releases. 2) WoW delivers the best over all product on the market when taking in all the considerations. Call it whatever you want it has something for everyone. It sure has its flaws and there are plenty of games that do single aspects much better here or there, but overall WoW caters to many tastes and makes the game playable and easy to get into.
I don't blame blizzard for having success, especially to the scale they have. It isn't like they planned it this way or even expected this kind of dominance. The way I see it is that so many other companies just flat out failed to make engrossing games that don't need to be fought with in order to have fun. The game list to the left is littered with titles that should have been great, but arn't. I don't blame blizzard for that and can't blame anyone else for cloning WoW except the companies that failed to deliver innovation the first time around. Afterall WoW is just a clone of EQ era games that did things right. Nothing is stopping the next generation from taking the good learned from WoW and making it better.
I disagree with almost everything you said. There are many games pre-wow that are much better quality, better gameplay with deeper immersion, better pvp, better pve. I would much rather play DAoC than WoW, for example; it just has more and better of everything that makes an mmo fun, except people to play it .
The ONLY thing that Blizzard managed to do so succesfully with WoW was to get so many people to come into the genre that never considered mmos before. There weren't as many total players of all the mmos combined before WoW as there are that played WoW at it's population height. It's been my observation that 90% of the mmorpg player base never played an mmorpg before they played WoW; and WoW is popular because people just don't know any better. In other words, WoW is not the most succesful because it was better; but because they marketed it better or because of the popularity of the Warcraft theme or the reputation of Blizzard in general.
Hopefully, all these new people that were introduced to mmorpgs through WoW will start looking around and find good games like Dark Age of Camelot and Everquest for those who want a deeper experience, or City of Heroes/Villains and those who like the shallower faster play style. Maybe Conan or Warhammer will bring back deep immersion, and gameplay that requires cooperation for non-raid content, etc.
The Community of little, immature kids, who like the female nightelf dance....
What if I'm 44 and like the female nightelf dance? I think I could make as strong an argument that if you DON'T like the female nightelf dance you're immature.
I disagree with almost everything you said. There are many games pre-wow that are much better quality, better gameplay with deeper immersion, better pvp, better pve. I would much rather play DAoC than WoW, for example; it just has more and better of everything that makes an mmo fun, except people to play it .
The ONLY thing that Blizzard managed to do so succesfully with WoW was to get so many people to come into the genre that never considered mmos before. There weren't as many total players of all the mmos combined before WoW as there are that played WoW at it's population height. It's been my observation that 90% of the mmorpg player base never played an mmorpg before they played WoW; and WoW is popular because people just don't know any better. In other words, WoW is not the most succesful because it was better; but because they marketed it better or because of the popularity of the Warcraft theme or the reputation of Blizzard in general.
How do you explain those of us that have played many many MMO's and prefer WoW? I've played DAoC, EvE, CoX, Earth and Beyond, Anarchy Online, LoTRO, Planetside, RF Online, Ragnarok Online, Tabula Rasa and WoW, plus a few others that were so bad I can't remember the name. Far and away, the best all around game that I've played is WoW. I respect your opinion that DAoC is a better game, but it wasn't for me. It's a nice theory that 90% of the players never played anything else, but even if it's true, which I highly doubt, then how do you explain the other 10% that have played other games and still think WoW is the best? 10% of those that play WoW is still more than most games have total. We all just mistaken?
I think it's time for those of you that don't like WoW to just admit that your tastes in MMO's are different from the majority. There's nothing wrong with that and sorry to have break that news to you and yes I feel your pain because that means that game makers probably aren't going to cater to you, but that's life. Please don't blame those of us that like WoW. We can't help it anymore than you can help not liking it.
How do you explain those of us that have played many many MMO's and prefer WoW? I've played DAoC, EvE, CoX, Earth and Beyond, Anarchy Online, LoTRO, Planetside, RF Online, Ragnarok Online, Tabula Rasa and WoW, plus a few others that were so bad I can't remember the name. Far and away, the best all around game that I've played is WoW. I respect your opinion that DAoC is a better game, but it wasn't for me. It's a nice theory that 90% of the players never played anything else, but even if it's true, which I highly doubt, then how do you explain the other 10% that have played other games and still think WoW is the best? 10% of those that play WoW is still more than most games have total. We all just mistaken? I think it's time for those of you that don't like WoW to just admit that your tastes in MMO's are different from the majority. There's nothing wrong with that and sorry to have break that news to you and yes I feel your pain because that means that game makers probably aren't going to cater to you, but that's life. Please don't blame those of us that like WoW. We can't help it anymore than you can help not liking it.
Sure it's true that some who have played other games prefer WoW; some people like simpler, short learning curve games. Dungeon Runners is growing daily, for example.
However, your assertion that people who prefer other games to WoW have tastes that are in the minority is what I am saying is incorrect, because most people haven't tasted anything but WoW; they haven't made a choice within the genre yet.
A lot of people probably won't change, either, because they've invested time and effort in their characters, or because they don't want to spend money to buy another game they're not sure about, or various other reasons. You are, unfortunately quite correct that the industry will likely follow the simple to learn / simple to play model of WoW because they will think that since more people play it that must be what people want. Until enough people break away from WoW and start looking for something more (which is already starting to happen), the industry will not truly know what people want because most people haven't actually made a choice yet to show what they want. You are one of the few who have made a choice because, as you stated, you tried other games.
DAoC is actually making a resurgence, as people move back to it after trying other games like WoW; and DAoC is only an example that I used. Everquest is still doing quite well and has quite a large population; Eve set subscriber records since WoW was released; Anarchy Online is seeing more people than it ever has since World of Warcraft introduced the masses to mmorpgs, and it's one of the most complex and highest learning curve game in the genre.
I think that as time goes by, people will trickle out of World of Warcraft and into other games, and SMART developers will not try to clone WoW but will rather introduce new creative ways to attract all these people that have been introduced to this most addictive of game genres.
DAOC had more than its more than its fair share of rough at launch and a few expansions that people point to ruining aspects of the game. It is one of the better games on the market at the time, but it was still lacking in areas. For example it isn't the strongest PvE game, but it does PvP well. I'm not saying it was a bad game and some like yourself would prefer it over WoW. Just that WoW hit at the magic moment of game lull and raised the bar on quality. Maybe some games are rebounding now, but every game I can think of took serious population hits from WoW. Again, I'm not saying it is the perfect game for everyone, just that it catered to potentially everyone.
I think we are at the same point again. There are plenty of people ready for the next thing and what ever company takes that leap will get big rewards. If all we get are WoW clones then people will just continue going back to WoW or whatever game they played. They will do fine, but I don't expect lighting to strike twice from a clone, but stranger things have happened I guess.
How do you explain those of us that have played many many MMO's and prefer WoW? I've played DAoC, EvE, CoX, Earth and Beyond, Anarchy Online, LoTRO, Planetside, RF Online, Ragnarok Online, Tabula Rasa and WoW, plus a few others that were so bad I can't remember the name. Far and away, the best all around game that I've played is WoW. I respect your opinion that DAoC is a better game, but it wasn't for me. It's a nice theory that 90% of the players never played anything else, but even if it's true, which I highly doubt, then how do you explain the other 10% that have played other games and still think WoW is the best? 10% of those that play WoW is still more than most games have total. We all just mistaken? I think it's time for those of you that don't like WoW to just admit that your tastes in MMO's are different from the majority. There's nothing wrong with that and sorry to have break that news to you and yes I feel your pain because that means that game makers probably aren't going to cater to you, but that's life. Please don't blame those of us that like WoW. We can't help it anymore than you can help not liking it.
Sure it's true that some who have played other games prefer WoW; some people like simpler, short learning curve games. Dungeon Runners is growing daily, for example.
However, your assertion that people who prefer other games to WoW have tastes that are in the minority is what I am saying is incorrect, because most people haven't tasted anything but WoW; they haven't made a choice within the genre yet.
A lot of people probably won't change, either, because they've invested time and effort in their characters, or because they don't want to spend money to buy another game they're not sure about, or various other reasons. You are, unfortunately quite correct that the industry will likely follow the simple to learn / simple to play model of WoW because they will think that since more people play it that must be what people want. Until enough people break away from WoW and start looking for something more (which is already starting to happen), the industry will not truly know what people want because most people haven't actually made a choice yet to show what they want. You are one of the few who have made a choice because, as you stated, you tried other games.
DAoC is actually making a resurgence, as people move back to it after trying other games like WoW; and DAoC is only an example that I used. Everquest is still doing quite well and has quite a large population; Eve set subscriber records since WoW was released; Anarchy Online is seeing more people than it ever has since World of Warcraft introduced the masses to mmorpgs, and it's one of the most complex and highest learning curve game in the genre.
I think that as time goes by, people will trickle out of World of Warcraft and into other games, and SMART developers will not try to clone WoW but will rather introduce new creative ways to attract all these people that have been introduced to this most addictive of game genres.
All of this is kind of outside the topic of the thread. It's not really the ONE thing you hate about WoW in one sentence is it?
That being said, you can hate things about a game without thinking it's a pile of crap. I think WOW is a great game. People that dismiss it or belittle people that enjoy it by implying they're mentally challenged or don't know what real gaming is like are nothing more than opinionated assholes trying to force their preference on others.
The most fun I've had in an MMO is probably large scale RvR in DAoC, but the game is old now and the community is NOTHING like it was in the first 2-3 years. Planetside kicked butt in it's prime too. The point is that these, all these games we play, are all for entertainment and what we like is our own opinion. Filling every MMO forum on the web with derision for particular games and flaming fellow gamers for *gasp* enjoying a game you dislike, is nothing short of idiocy IMO.
Try supporting what you like without slamming what you don't... A novel naive idea I know, but shaking your fist at Blizzard and their mouth-breathing customers isn't really working either is it? Who's dumber: WoW players or the tool shouting at them to stop having fun?
Populate and support the games you DO like and let everyone else make the same choice for themselves without pointless petty elitism. They're all games. Play what you want wether it's EVE, WoW or My Little Pony Online and try to escape the real world for a little while.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR Playing: WAR Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
All of this is kind of outside the topic of the thread. It's not really the ONE thing you hate about WoW in one sentence is it?
That being said, you can hate things about a game without thinking it's a pile of crap. I think WOW is a great game. People that dismiss it or belittle people that enjoy it by implying they're mentally challenged or don't know what real gaming is like are nothing more than opinionated assholes trying to force their preference on others. The most fun I've had in an MMO is probably large scale RvR in DAoC, but the game is old now and the community is NOTHING like it was in the first 2-3 years. Planetside kicked butt in it's prime too. The point is that these, all these games we play, are all for entertainment and what we like is our own opinion. Filling every MMO forum on the web with derision for particular games and flaming fellow gamers for *gasp* enjoying a game you dislike, is nothing short of idiocy IMO. Try supporting what you like without slamming what you don't... A novel naive idea I know, but shaking your fist at Blizzard and their mouth-breathing customers isn't really working either is it? Who's dumber: WoW players or the tool shouting at them to stop having fun? Populate and support the games you DO like and let everyone else make the same choice for themselves without pointless petty elitism. They're all games. Play what you want wether it's EVE, WoW or My Little Pony Online and try to escape the real world for a little while.
Yes, you are right. I shouldn't have gotten carried away in a flame war of opinion. WoW is definately not a BAD game, and I occasionally fire up my account and play it. You could make a thread with the same topic for any mmorpg and you'll get plenty of things people hate about it. The BEST game is the one you have fun playing. That's what I tell people that ask about what class to play in any game. But I also tell them to try them before deciding .
The game is like a cartoonish joke. If they could make the game abit more serious abit more dark and abit more difficult for serious players.
oh and they freakin should disable chat for trial accounts or limit it. every damn farmer makes a lvl 1 char and spams every god damn chat not funny anymore.
Oh yea & theres the gold issue i agree m8 drives you mad, hopefully WAR will be more serious and running on DX10 will make it look the dogs.
Originally posted by daemon The game is like a cartoonish joke. If they could make the game abit more serious abit more dark and abit more difficult for serious players.
oh and they freakin should disable chat for trial accounts or limit it. every damn farmer makes a lvl 1 char and spams every god damn chat not funny anymore.
Ugh, you want realism? Go outside.
That is one of the two things that make me hate EQ2. The horrible crafting system and the ugly as sin character designs.
The real problem with WoW is the community. Most all of the other stuff people claim are problems were caused by the community. It's gear centric because people wanted their shiny rewards. It's heavy on raiding because that's how EQ was so that's how they expected WoW to be. The game play is linear because if you try to play any other way than what everyone expects people just get angry. People whined about town npcs getting killed so they put in bg. Constant revolving class imbalances coming from people constantly compaining about other classes being better than their own. There's really not much they could easily do to fix the game at this point as you would just about need to start over from scratch. I think what would help is if they learned from Sony and Nintendo. It doesn't need to be easy, but it shouldn't feel like a job either. The most important thing should be having fun.
I hate raiding and like the poster above me, I despise Blizzard for using my subscription money to subsidize raid content while shafting my casual play style in the process.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Its got one of the worst cases of RGE I have ever experienced in an online game.
Repetition, Grind, and Endgame
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
whiners who think they are very smart and if they dont like some game it must suck to everyone else because they are no life people who played everything there is to play and they leveled everything there is t olevel and they are l33t hardcore pwnedkkthnx i-have-no-real-life idiots.
--------------------> Would you like some cheese with that whine?
Comments
It's caused the industry and community to view ~100K sub games as failures and stifled innovation.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR
Playing: WAR
Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
Nicely put.
The ONLY thing that Blizzard managed to do so succesfully with WoW was to get so many people to come into the genre that never considered mmos before. There weren't as many total players of all the mmos combined before WoW as there are that played WoW at it's population height. It's been my observation that 90% of the mmorpg player base never played an mmorpg before they played WoW; and WoW is popular because people just don't know any better. In other words, WoW is not the most succesful because it was better; but because they marketed it better or because of the popularity of the Warcraft theme or the reputation of Blizzard in general.
Hopefully, all these new people that were introduced to mmorpgs through WoW will start looking around and find good games like Dark Age of Camelot and Everquest for those who want a deeper experience, or City of Heroes/Villains and those who like the shallower faster play style. Maybe Conan or Warhammer will bring back deep immersion, and gameplay that requires cooperation for non-raid content, etc.
How do you explain those of us that have played many many MMO's and prefer WoW? I've played DAoC, EvE, CoX, Earth and Beyond, Anarchy Online, LoTRO, Planetside, RF Online, Ragnarok Online, Tabula Rasa and WoW, plus a few others that were so bad I can't remember the name. Far and away, the best all around game that I've played is WoW. I respect your opinion that DAoC is a better game, but it wasn't for me. It's a nice theory that 90% of the players never played anything else, but even if it's true, which I highly doubt, then how do you explain the other 10% that have played other games and still think WoW is the best? 10% of those that play WoW is still more than most games have total. We all just mistaken?
I think it's time for those of you that don't like WoW to just admit that your tastes in MMO's are different from the majority. There's nothing wrong with that and sorry to have break that news to you and yes I feel your pain because that means that game makers probably aren't going to cater to you, but that's life. Please don't blame those of us that like WoW. We can't help it anymore than you can help not liking it.
However, your assertion that people who prefer other games to WoW have tastes that are in the minority is what I am saying is incorrect, because most people haven't tasted anything but WoW; they haven't made a choice within the genre yet.
A lot of people probably won't change, either, because they've invested time and effort in their characters, or because they don't want to spend money to buy another game they're not sure about, or various other reasons. You are, unfortunately quite correct that the industry will likely follow the simple to learn / simple to play model of WoW because they will think that since more people play it that must be what people want. Until enough people break away from WoW and start looking for something more (which is already starting to happen), the industry will not truly know what people want because most people haven't actually made a choice yet to show what they want. You are one of the few who have made a choice because, as you stated, you tried other games.
DAoC is actually making a resurgence, as people move back to it after trying other games like WoW; and DAoC is only an example that I used. Everquest is still doing quite well and has quite a large population; Eve set subscriber records since WoW was released; Anarchy Online is seeing more people than it ever has since World of Warcraft introduced the masses to mmorpgs, and it's one of the most complex and highest learning curve game in the genre.
I think that as time goes by, people will trickle out of World of Warcraft and into other games, and SMART developers will not try to clone WoW but will rather introduce new creative ways to attract all these people that have been introduced to this most addictive of game genres.
Lanro,
DAOC had more than its more than its fair share of rough at launch and a few expansions that people point to ruining aspects of the game. It is one of the better games on the market at the time, but it was still lacking in areas. For example it isn't the strongest PvE game, but it does PvP well. I'm not saying it was a bad game and some like yourself would prefer it over WoW. Just that WoW hit at the magic moment of game lull and raised the bar on quality. Maybe some games are rebounding now, but every game I can think of took serious population hits from WoW. Again, I'm not saying it is the perfect game for everyone, just that it catered to potentially everyone.
I think we are at the same point again. There are plenty of people ready for the next thing and what ever company takes that leap will get big rewards. If all we get are WoW clones then people will just continue going back to WoW or whatever game they played. They will do fine, but I don't expect lighting to strike twice from a clone, but stranger things have happened I guess.
Gear eccentric!
general chat
Pappy13 what is your raiding history like?
However, your assertion that people who prefer other games to WoW have tastes that are in the minority is what I am saying is incorrect, because most people haven't tasted anything but WoW; they haven't made a choice within the genre yet.
A lot of people probably won't change, either, because they've invested time and effort in their characters, or because they don't want to spend money to buy another game they're not sure about, or various other reasons. You are, unfortunately quite correct that the industry will likely follow the simple to learn / simple to play model of WoW because they will think that since more people play it that must be what people want. Until enough people break away from WoW and start looking for something more (which is already starting to happen), the industry will not truly know what people want because most people haven't actually made a choice yet to show what they want. You are one of the few who have made a choice because, as you stated, you tried other games.
DAoC is actually making a resurgence, as people move back to it after trying other games like WoW; and DAoC is only an example that I used. Everquest is still doing quite well and has quite a large population; Eve set subscriber records since WoW was released; Anarchy Online is seeing more people than it ever has since World of Warcraft introduced the masses to mmorpgs, and it's one of the most complex and highest learning curve game in the genre.
I think that as time goes by, people will trickle out of World of Warcraft and into other games, and SMART developers will not try to clone WoW but will rather introduce new creative ways to attract all these people that have been introduced to this most addictive of game genres.
All of this is kind of outside the topic of the thread. It's not really the ONE thing you hate about WoW in one sentence is it?
That being said, you can hate things about a game without thinking it's a pile of crap. I think WOW is a great game. People that dismiss it or belittle people that enjoy it by implying they're mentally challenged or don't know what real gaming is like are nothing more than opinionated assholes trying to force their preference on others.
The most fun I've had in an MMO is probably large scale RvR in DAoC, but the game is old now and the community is NOTHING like it was in the first 2-3 years. Planetside kicked butt in it's prime too. The point is that these, all these games we play, are all for entertainment and what we like is our own opinion. Filling every MMO forum on the web with derision for particular games and flaming fellow gamers for *gasp* enjoying a game you dislike, is nothing short of idiocy IMO.
Try supporting what you like without slamming what you don't... A novel naive idea I know, but shaking your fist at Blizzard and their mouth-breathing customers isn't really working either is it? Who's dumber: WoW players or the tool shouting at them to stop having fun?
Populate and support the games you DO like and let everyone else make the same choice for themselves without pointless petty elitism. They're all games. Play what you want wether it's EVE, WoW or My Little Pony Online and try to escape the real world for a little while.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR
Playing: WAR
Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
I wish that they could of put a 18 on WOW, every player had to prove that they were over 18 to play.
Hate kids & adults which act like um.
p.s not all kids are bad btw
The game is like a cartoonish joke. If they could make the game abit more serious abit more dark and abit more difficult for serious players.
oh and they freakin should disable chat for trial accounts or limit it.
every damn farmer makes a lvl 1 char and spams every god damn chat not funny anymore.
Oh yea & theres the gold issue i agree m8 drives you mad, hopefully WAR will be more serious and running on DX10 will make it look the dogs.
Sparse. I had a big response typed up, but it's getting off-thread, so I'll leave it at that.
Ugh, you want realism? Go outside.
That is one of the two things that make me hate EQ2. The horrible crafting system and the ugly as sin character designs.
The real problem with WoW is the community. Most all of the other stuff people claim are problems were caused by the community. It's gear centric because people wanted their shiny rewards. It's heavy on raiding because that's how EQ was so that's how they expected WoW to be. The game play is linear because if you try to play any other way than what everyone expects people just get angry. People whined about town npcs getting killed so they put in bg. Constant revolving class imbalances coming from people constantly compaining about other classes being better than their own. There's really not much they could easily do to fix the game at this point as you would just about need to start over from scratch. I think what would help is if they learned from Sony and Nintendo. It doesn't need to be easy, but it shouldn't feel like a job either. The most important thing should be having fun.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
WoW brings the worst out in people with the heirarchy of loot.
Torrential
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
... being locked out of content i.e. high end raiding. I don't neccessarily want to solo it, but I pay for the content, let me use it!!
I hate raiding and like the poster above me, I despise Blizzard for using my subscription money to subsidize raid content while shafting my casual play style in the process.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
The people who bash WOW on forums, who never played or have been playing for years is what I hate most.
Its got one of the worst cases of RGE I have ever experienced in an online game.
Repetition, Grind, and Endgame
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
whiners who think they are very smart and if they dont like some game it must suck to everyone else because they are no life people who played everything there is to play and they leveled everything there is t olevel and they are l33t hardcore pwnedkkthnx i-have-no-real-life idiots.
-------------------->
Would you like some cheese with that whine?
Blizzard
Have Played: AO, CoH, GW, WoW, SWG, LOTRO.
Currently Playing: LOTRO
Too many quests making for linear gameplay.