Well obviously what is there to tanking. You sit there, and take hits. Thats the main purpose of a tank. YOu get hit, you get healed you use stun moves and BAM your a tank! The fact of hte matter is, WoW is just a game that took an idea from someone else *Cough* Mythic*cough* but used their name in order to sell massive amounts o games.
Yes i commend blizzard for that and i think its great for them and i hope they use it to make actaul good games, like they used to (starcraft II is a good investment).
Whether its twitch combat, semi twitch (WoW, Asheron's call) or point and click, it doesnt matter what style of combat there is, it just matters what the game revolves around.
So really Darfakll is a MMOFPRPG (Massive multiplayer online first person role playing game | Technicaly third person but who cares). You dont like the idea (anyone in general)? So what. Thats what it is, you can level up your character, do quests, grief people or hell become a merchant, leader anything. If thats not roleplaying then I gues the majority of roleplaying is being set to do certain things at certain times that you have to wait till Lvl XX in order to go to certain places THAT YOU CANNOT EVEN EXPLORE because they are holding you back because of a level.
Im sorry to break this to you but Darkfall is created around PVP. But thats not the only thing to do, if you thought that, your dead wrong. The amount of things put into darkfall that you are able to do will make WoW players be like "Wow, you mean i couldve made a character that couldve done all that instead of making 16 characters spending $xxx to switch server and then having to do each of these things on a separate character and then wasting my time killing this same instanced boss to get X amount of items that were inadequate in a month just to find out I couldve done more than this is such a smaller amount of time w/o reaching the tip of the iceburge?!? *deep breath* ""
I mean if you like WoW, thats cool. Thats super, but I and most of the people that speak against it dont, and its for reasons that I kinda summed up in the last paragraph (others have more and heir free to speak it. I mean i know darkfall wont take every little player form WoW. But the fact is that its going to be a more solid game that has alot more to offer, im tired of the linear game i want a sandbox (Pre-cu swg, asheron's call, planetside) that wont inhibit my wants to go anywhere i please (with only the danger of huge monsters to inhibit my movement) and become anything i want w/o having to make a different character every time i want to make or become something else.
Your tank will do nothing more than cause FF and be dropped in a matter of seconds because really in darkfall its not about the tanking, its about the damage and healing capabilities, the dev's said it best "Your going to die in darkfall, alot"
So have fun getting you're uber armor in WoW an di really do wish you the best of luck, but you do decide to check out darkfall we'll welcome you with Arms unsheathed.
Tanking is a lot more then that, but you'd have to tank to know it. In WoW, tanking is all about position, timing, and threat/aggro management. These make up the 50% of playing WoW that is player skill. You won't understand how much deeper it is then "spam this button" if you haven't done it. The other 50% of WoW playing at end-game is Talent spec and gear. You are right on that, but can't seem to get past the idea that it is also so much more due to your bias.
I love skill system based games, which I define as you pick your characters skills, and advanced those skills by using them (i.e. Oblivion, old UO) I like freedom and I like choice. I want to build my character as I want to build them, and I want to have the freedom to choose what role I play.
I hate grinding on mobs / missions/ trade skills mindlessly for hours and hours and hours. Sandbox games have both. They have the freedom to do what you want to do, to create your own content, but they also have NO content other then grinding. It may be hard to understand, but look at old UO and pre-NGE SWG. You can't deny the facts.
FPS combat has no place in a MMO due to the technological limitations of our current networks and hardware. Look at planetside, WW2 online, etc. How popular are those?
Do you really think an unknown Indy developer is going to magically figure out a way to make FPS combat work on a large, MMO scale when dozens of well funded, proven, highly successful and talented developers haven't?
*edit*
Oh, and I don't play WoW anymore. You arguments make you sound ignorant and combative. I, at least, am trying to be civil, intelligent, and intellectual. Learn from Vajuras, he knows how to argue!
Well obviously what is there to tanking. You sit there, and take hits. Thats the main purpose of a tank. YOu get hit, you get healed you use stun moves and BAM your a tank! The fact of hte matter is, WoW is just a game that took an idea from someone else *Cough* Mythic*cough* but used their name in order to sell massive amounts o games.
Yes i commend blizzard for that and i think its great for them and i hope they use it to make actaul good games, like they used to (starcraft II is a good investment).
Whether its twitch combat, semi twitch (WoW, Asheron's call) or point and click, it doesnt matter what style of combat there is, it just matters what the game revolves around.
So really Darfakll is a MMOFPRPG (Massive multiplayer online first person role playing game | Technicaly third person but who cares). You dont like the idea (anyone in general)? So what. Thats what it is, you can level up your character, do quests, grief people or hell become a merchant, leader anything. If thats not roleplaying then I gues the majority of roleplaying is being set to do certain things at certain times that you have to wait till Lvl XX in order to go to certain places THAT YOU CANNOT EVEN EXPLORE because they are holding you back because of a level.
Im sorry to break this to you but Darkfall is created around PVP. But thats not the only thing to do, if you thought that, your dead wrong. The amount of things put into darkfall that you are able to do will make WoW players be like "Wow, you mean i couldve made a character that couldve done all that instead of making 16 characters spending $xxx to switch server and then having to do each of these things on a separate character and then wasting my time killing this same instanced boss to get X amount of items that were inadequate in a month just to find out I couldve done more than this is such a smaller amount of time w/o reaching the tip of the iceburge?!? *deep breath* ""
I mean if you like WoW, thats cool. Thats super, but I and most of the people that speak against it dont, and its for reasons that I kinda summed up in the last paragraph (others have more and heir free to speak it. I mean i know darkfall wont take every little player form WoW. But the fact is that its going to be a more solid game that has alot more to offer, im tired of the linear game i want a sandbox (Pre-cu swg, asheron's call, planetside) that wont inhibit my wants to go anywhere i please (with only the danger of huge monsters to inhibit my movement) and become anything i want w/o having to make a different character every time i want to make or become something else.
Your tank will do nothing more than cause FF and be dropped in a matter of seconds because really in darkfall its not about the tanking, its about the damage and healing capabilities, the dev's said it best "Your going to die in darkfall, alot"
So have fun getting you're uber armor in WoW an di really do wish you the best of luck, but you do decide to check out darkfall we'll welcome you with Arms unsheathed.
Tanking is a lot more then that, but you'd have to tank to know it. In WoW, tanking is all about position, timing, and threat/aggro management. These make up the 50% of playing WoW that is player skill. You won't understand how much deeper it is then "spam this button" if you haven't done it. The other 50% of WoW playing at end-game is Talent spec and gear. You are right on that, but can't seem to get past the idea that it is also so much more due to your bias.
I love skill system based games, which I define as you pick your characters skills, and advanced those skills by using them (i.e. Oblivion, old UO) I like freedom and I like choice. I want to build my character as I want to build them, and I want to have the freedom to choose what role I play.
I hate grinding on mobs / missions/ trade skills mindlessly for hours and hours and hours. Sandbox games have both. They have the freedom to do what you want to do, to create your own content, but they also have NO content other then grinding. It may be hard to understand, but look at old UO and pre-NGE SWG. You can't deny the facts.
FPS combat has no place in a MMO due to the technological limitations of our current networks and hardware. Look at planetside, WW2 online, etc. How popular are those?
Do you really think an unknown Indy developer is going to magically figure out a way to make FPS combat work on a large, MMO scale when dozens of well funded, proven, highly successful and talented developers haven't?
*edit*
Oh, and I don't play WoW anymore. You arguments make you sound ignorant and combative. I, at least, am trying to be civil, intelligent, and intellectual. Learn from Vajuras, he knows how to argue!
You see the thing that makes me laugh (I dont blame you cause it sbetter to teach than flame and just keep people from wanting to steer clear of that which they feel is right). Agro management is kind of a "Need to know" thing of anything including tanking, so thats kind of not needed to be stated (Yet its good for the folks that dont really know any better so im neutral on it).
But you say " love skill system based games, which I define as you pick your characters skills, and advanced those skills by using them (i.e. Oblivion, old UO) I like freedom and I like choice. I want to build my character as I want to build them, and I want to have the freedom to choose what role I play.
I hate grinding on mobs / missions/ trade skills mindlessly for hours and hours and hours. Sandbox games have both. They have the freedom to do what you want to do, to create your own content, but they also have NO content other then grinding. It may be hard to understand, but look at old UO and pre-NGE SWG. You can't deny the facts."
Your basicaly saying you want an old school UO with Oblivion aspects.....DARKFALL IS IT. Its like oblivion (excep tits third person in melee combat) and their main influence is UO.
Your freedom of choice, theres over like 200 skills (500 skills+Spells yes but i dont know the exact number of JUST SKILLS but theres defintaely more than WoW lawl) To choose from. You dont choose which ones you want persay. You say which ones you want. You say "I want to shovel in a farm all day" you pick up a shovel and do it. You say "I want to learn how to block better" you pick up a shield and do it. "i want to learn hwo to bake pies (Asheron's call DTers know what im talkin about ) you makea mofkin pie!!
Now your networking complications are basicaly a thing of the past. Especially now with quad cores coming out theres so much more that can be done. Once we have all the fiber optics in place and even got ourselves quantum transisters with the flux capaciters ready, it'll be like story telling! (Yes im actaully just joking around with thequantam flux jazz).
But really they even stated that performance is their main thing, they're choosing FPS over looks when it comes to 300+ people battles (which there will be when you have a n alliance benging at your castle walls looking to destroy it...whcih is 100% true). They stated that they are doing whatever it takes to have maximum performance, including but not limited to, network. They originaly even left out shield blocking and had it automatic (asheron's call and almost every mmo before hand, excluding DandD) because of network problems, bu tthey recently added it in to be manual.
If you want a tanker with skill you might like darkfall, even though i used the whoel die alot in darkfall quote, you could probably see that it would be so much more fun/strategical since you have very many things you have to watch out for, including Friendly Fire. But get this, if someone tries to heal their teamate that your attacking, if they accidentaly aim at you, they heal you. Yes sure it could be done visa versa.
Really it sounds like your basicaly explaining that you want a game like darkfall, but fo rsome reason all you think it is is, join a server get some headshots (which do not exist in darkfall FOR BALANCE REASONS) and then log off. When infact its not, its very much so an rpg but it takes more thinking, you have to know what to agro, where to move, where to attack, what to attack with. Now i dont know if theres multi strike positions i wont lie (Like you stated in dark messiah, which was a very awesome game just needed more support).
But darkfall isnt for everyone, its going to be ahardcore universe that even I might not even like when is tart getting pwned. But with full loot on death, being able to steal someones horse but jumping on its back when they get off or hell even just chopping someones head off and using it as a trophy, you can always remember. When you respawn, and you notice how cheap weapons and armor will be for hte most part, and you see that guy walking towards you. You know that you'd rather reak your vengeance then just let him walk away.
Oh ya anothe rthing, hasnt there been a time when you were annoyed by some kid that keeps messing around on WoW, wouldnt you rather just pwn the hell out of him than just listen to him rag on about go dknows what especially when he KEEPS DECLINING THE DUEL INVITATION.
I gave WoW a shot and i didnt like it. Really all im asking for you to do is accept that darkfall isnt just some random shooter that all you have to do is get a few frags and you r l33t, but much mor ehtan that. This is the last bastion of good gaming that most us PVPrz have been looking forward to since Old school AC DT (w00t w00t) or even UO.
I played pre-NGE SWG, and I enjoyed it at the time.
I play Oblivion and I enjoy.
Darkfall is promising to have many features shared by these games. However, UO, SWG, and Oblivion were created by some of the top gaming developers on the planet, not by a 3rd party unknown Indy developer that has been working on the game for 7 years, and has been a "year from release" according to the very DF fans who patrol these forums for over 3 years.
Notice, that I said "I enjoyed it at the time."
What you missed was that I said "sandbox type games have the freedom of choice and the ability to choose your role/destiny etc. but they also have NO content besides what you the player creates."
With no content other then player created content, you grind.
You can't be involved in epic sieges and PvP warfare and naval battles etc. 100% of the time you are playing the game. It wasn't true in UO, it wasn't true in SWG, and it's not going to be true in Darkfall. You are going to spend the majority of your time grinding to make money, improve your skills etc. so that when the opportunity for epic, player created fun happens, you'll be "ready."
I know, for a fact, that this is true from my experience playing the games that Darkfall is based off of.
I enjoy Oblivion for everything but the combat. It works in that game, because everything else in the game is so good. Will it work online? No.
Why don't games like Halo 3 have 300+ person matches? Counterstrike? That's very "modern" technology, Halo 3 is a little over a month old! Have you seen what happens in ANY online game when you have 300+ people in the same area? Even with the best, most highly optimized code and game engine (which a company like Blizzard is capable of creating) it just doesn't work for 99% of the players. Only the 1% of people with super-jacked up rigs and blazing fast direct pipe connections can play with minimal lag.
Trying to design a game for that 1% of players means that the game will not be commercially successful. It may survive as a nice, fun little niche game that is highly enjoyed by a few.
And on the subject of PvP. Yes, I love fair, balanced PvP. PvP where I win because I am more skilled then the other player. I play FPS games for this, because NO MMO, especially not old school UO ever really has gotten it right.
Darkfall will be like every other FFA PvP game I have played. Gankers and griefers will love it, the rest of the population will be lambs to the slaughter. I've been a ganker/griefer, I've terrorized and victimized other players in online games... when I was 16. I have no interest in that flavor of PvP anymore, there is nothing "hardcore" about it, despite what others may try to make you believe.
Throw in full player looting? You just wrecked the game for me. Unless gear means just about absolutely nothing like it did in old UO, then full looting is a terrible idea. But if gear has no meaning, why make it lootable? It's just an added annoyance invented by people who think it's "hardcore."
The rest of us figured out a long time ago that there is nothing hardcore about this kind of game. It's difficult, frustrating, and tedius. The difficult part isn't bad, at all, I agree that most modern MMOs (including WoW) could stand to have some aspects made more challenging, but frustration and tedium are not something I want to pay for.
Originally posted by Electricdawn been apart of small teams achieving victory in FPS. I ahve seen 1 man make a huge difference
Just to remind you, the last dev post said something about "Ping not being important as Darkfall wouldn't be an FPS".
Don't get your hopes up too much, guys.
There has already been MMOs with realtime combat in the past I am not getting my hopes up I know what to expect based on experiences with similar features in the past. Realtime combat in MMOs has been here for quite some time
1. MMOs have always had realtime combat see Asheron's Call 1 for example.
2. Depends on FPS game in question how much "skill" is in question my site appears to be down so I'll go from memory: - Knowledge of Terrain is KEY, paramount to taking victory. I have seen small groups achieve victory by having knowledge of where to find cover, bottlenecks, etc. - Friendly Fire. Every FPS gamer knows if you lob around Area of Effect without caution and notifying teammates you can massacre your own allies - Dodging. Warriors die to Mages due to inability to Dodge. Meleers are a force in traditional FPS because they can dodge fire - Cover. Newbies die all the time in FPS games that have snipers. Running out in the open = DEATH. This is why I say average cookie cutter MMO has poor PVP. In real life it is death to run out in the open w/o surverying the terrain and ensuring you have cover - Lack of TAB key. This means players cant 'target call' on Ventrillo and spike a target with impunity. In Guild Wars we would target call and destroy our enemies before they could click a key I have to run to lunch and stuff but this is just some meager points off the top of my head. I have seen it daily- been apart of small teams achieving victory in FPS. I ahve seen 1 man make a huge difference
Ok, you just went into detail about what I said that FPS games require you to take advantage of opportunities (and/or create them) and are all about positioning. I'm not debating that.
I'm just saying that Darkfall will not be like that. It will be like Fury or Oblivion in terms of how FPS it is.
You want fantasy FPS play Dark Messiah. That is fantasy FPS done right. If they make Darkfall like that, it may be a good combat game.
Dark Messiah is not an MMO nor is Oblivion. Fury does not have realtime dodging either. In Oblivion you can't even fight against another player?
FPS combat has no place in a MMO due to the technological limitations of our current networks and hardware. Look at planetside, WW2 online, etc. How popular are those? Do you really think an unknown Indy developer is going to magically figure out a way to make FPS combat work on a large, MMO scale when dozens of well funded, proven, highly successful and talented developers haven't? *edit* Oh, and I don't play WoW anymore. You arguments make you sound ignorant and combative. I, at least, am trying to be civil, intelligent, and intellectual. Learn from Vajuras, he knows how to argue!
That is a good argument there about technology supporting large scale FPS combat. And it is a solid argument can this Adventurine make anything at all happen? Yes, good argument and I dunno
But a good developer can get FPS working. I saw Huxley at E3 2006 and it seemed fine too me. Spellborn devs have realtime combat and they stated everything works fine for large scale combat (but perhaps they only meant meeting in big groups in a town so I give ya that). Spellborn is still early so we will see...
Starport is all realtime combat and it works fine. When everything is a "projectile" think about it. We are not talking FPS per se. We are talking bout dodging a projectile like an Arrow or Magic Spell. That is not really ping dependant.
I apologize when I say "FPS" on MMORPG boards I refer to "shooter" elements like dodging projectiles. I am not picky how Aim is handled. Whether projectiles are auto-seeking or aimed matters not too me as long as they collide with Terrain. My reasoning is Warrior types can have a good fight against a Mage. I am also biased because in GODZ (modification for UT I coded) our 3rdf person combat worked this way
Asheron's Call 1 had these elements so it is proven. I am not speaking of doing server side raytraces but rather making everything a projectile (all ranged attacks) which is not Ping dependant.
tryout Starport or AC1 if you havent.
{edit} So I will give ya Huxely and Spellborn since they are not out. I will concede on planetside because I never played. But realtime "projectiles" works and I can vouch for that (realtime dodging) and it is not heavily ping dependant
Darkfall is promising to have many features shared by these games. However, UO, SWG, and Oblivion were created by some of the top gaming developers on the planet, not by a 3rd party unknown Indy developer that has been working on the game for 7 years, and has been a "year from release" according to the very DF fans who patrol these forums for over 3 years.
You can't be involved in epic sieges and PvP warfare and naval battles etc. 100% of the time you are playing the game. It wasn't true in UO, it wasn't true in SWG, and it's not going to be true in Darkfall. You are going to spend the majority of your time grinding to make money, improve your skills etc. so that when the opportunity for epic, player created fun happens, you'll be "ready."
Why don't games like Halo 3 have 300+ person matches? Counterstrike? That's very "modern" technology, Halo 3 is a little over a month old! Have you seen what happens in ANY online game when you have 300+ people in the same area? Even with the best, most highly optimized code and game engine (which a company like Blizzard is capable of creating) it just doesn't work for 99% of the players. Only the 1% of people with super-jacked up rigs and blazing fast direct pipe connections can play with minimal lag.
And on the subject of PvP. Yes, I love fair, balanced PvP. PvP where I win because I am more skilled then the other player. I play FPS games for this, because NO MMO, especially not old school UO ever really has gotten it right. Throw in full player looting? You just wrecked the game for me. Unless gear means just about absolutely nothing like it did in old UO, then full looting is a terrible idea. But if gear has no meaning, why make it lootable? It's just an added annoyance invented by people who think it's "hardcore."
It doesnt mtater if a company has a name for themselves. I mean cmon look at EA one of the "top companies" and they throw out crappy games all the time. its just that they make so many of htem they're making a good profit. SWG although was fun, was a crappy game and that was how long in development? By what company? It wasnt even fully completed and still has problems (even with NGE, PRE-cu was the best). At least Adventurine is trying to make the game with quality instead of just trying to make a quick buck (And hey will go into self publication if necessary).
And actually they even stated they want to run Server events where you have to fight Demi-gods complete "epic" quests or any of that sort of stuff (yes i said DEMI-GODS). And i mean even the "grind" will be its own siege. You go out side you'll see a goblin camp, you leave that alone, it will litteraly upgrade to a stronger camp, the longer you leave it alone the higher level it will become, once they become powerful enough they will litteraly raid the nearest town. Also its dynamic spawn, so you wont laways have that same little camp to continuously farm. And its not only players that are going to be in the world, like i just said there will be NPC's. So you can always have a naval battle whether its with NPC pirates or NPC sea monsters. Its all there. And so what if the dev's arent always behind the server creating thesse epic instances 100% of the time, I dont think i'd constantly want to fight in those massive battles, sometimes soloing....or get this.....EXPLORING the world is fun enough. (their world is going to be massive, mainly hand created across many square miles, dont remember hte exact number they projected).
As for networking. You actually can do that pretty well, most game servers (halo, cs strike) are actaully shared. SO you can have liek 20 CS game servers on 1 server platform. But with most mmo's its just 1 server to host alot of people. SO you have more resources goign to just that one server, and of course their going to only allow X amount of players per server, bringing in more that is needed (with the lack of hitboxes it requires less server resources, shot to the foot is the same as a shot to the face, balance purposes as well as network) so instead of saying Player 1 part 366 its just player 1 hits player 2 with X. And hell maybe htey have something else up there sleeve that their just not lettin out. But what would you think if they did have 10k people per server fighting in 300+ battles with little lag. Would you even care?
And btw, blizzard used that engine. Molded it off of games previouse to it. They didnt make anything new, ever wonder why WoW and DAOC were so similar? Not to mention you dont need a "jacked up rig" they're creating the game that you can play with super duper upper graphics, or just menial. They're trying to make it so someone that could run CS 1.6 can run Darkfall decently well.
Do you think they were just drawing leaves on a tree for 3+ years? Most of their programming has been around balance. With 300 skills and 200 spells (yes just found this http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setView/overview/gameId/4 old news but still reference) why would you rush that.
well get this. Your the highest level in your class (swordsmen or whatever) because you just bought it off of ebay. You have all the "Uber gear" that came with the accoutn. you come across someone that looks as if they are about medium "level" to you. You come infor an attack, they dont have all the shiny armor or weapons taht you have, but they kick the shit out of you...know why? WEAPONS AND ARMOR ARE ONLY 25% OF WHAT GIVES YOUR STRENGHT. 75% of the game is player skills (knowing what to use, when to use it how to use whether its skills, items or movement)
Im not sure why your playing WoW if what your looking for is actaul player control instead of items, cause items are what give you the power in WoW (this is usually when people bringin the world of roguecraft....what a joke).
In any case Just because these guys are not Blizzard (not to mention not using an overused mechanic) doesnt mean they cannot make something unique, as welll as working.
Im sure if a company says they can handle 300+ people battles as well as 10k people per server, they have statistics to back it up or else thats called fraudulent claims, and in some countries can be sued for that.
Either way when this game comes out, its going to be something unique and big and osmething that will revolutionize MMO's to date. im nto really into the cookie cutter mmo's, nor the mmo's where you have to grind then pvp. I'd rather grind WITH PVP (Yes your skills will increase whether its monster or player). But like i said its your choice to disagree with me, all im trying to do is convince (which is perfectly legitamate). If the game doesnt come out anywhere near as close as they say (which has happened in the past with many other games, including swg) then I was wrong. Otherwise these guys seem pretty lcose to their word, and the articles that are written about hands on with the game tend to say that this game has included everything they stated it would have....and then some.
Originally posted by heerobya Tanking is a lot more then that, but you'd have to tank to know it. In WoW, tanking is all about position, timing, and threat/aggro management. These make up the 50% of playing WoW that is player skill. You won't understand how much deeper it is then "spam this button" if you haven't done it. The other 50% of WoW playing at end-game is Talent spec and gear. You are right on that, but can't seem to get past the idea that it is also so much more due to your bias.
okay I see I perhaps made a big mistake bringing up WoW as an example. I played a Shaman extensively in that MMO (about a year) but didn't play a Tank. I play Warrior role in other MMOs personally.
From your angle, it takes skill in regards to PVE. But from my angle, I am uncertain how much "skill" factored when I dueled my fellow shaman that had same talent spec (or really similar where it counted), same Class, and I lost everytime (100%) due to gear discrepancy
Now in regards to PVE balance I agree perhaps that is skill but I wonder how much of that is memorization? Only because PVE mobs do not change- those encounters are static
But I digress- I suppose that is "skill" but in regards to PVP I wonder how much of my skill counted. I suppose it is a factor sure it would be wrong to see it didnt count. But sometimes, too me, gear counted more (PVP)
Originally posted by heerobya You are assuming far too much about me. I played old school UO, I enjoyed it at the time. I played pre-NGE SWG, and I enjoyed it at the time. I play Oblivion and I enjoy. Darkfall is promising to have many features shared by these games. However, UO, SWG, and Oblivion were created by some of the top gaming developers on the planet, not by a 3rd party unknown Indy developer that has been working on the game for 7 years, and has been a "year from release" according to the very DF fans who patrol these forums for over 3 years.
Yeah DF has bad PR man I give ya that.
Notice, that I said "I enjoyed it at the time." What you missed was that I said "sandbox type games have the freedom of choice and the ability to choose your role/destiny etc. but they also have NO content besides what you the player creates." With no content other then player created content, you grind. You can't be involved in epic sieges and PvP warfare and naval battles etc. 100% of the time you are playing the game. It wasn't true in UO, it wasn't true in SWG, and it's not going to be true in Darkfall. You are going to spend the majority of your time grinding to make money, improve your skills etc. so that when the opportunity for epic, player created fun happens, you'll be "ready."
This is true for most players but I would contend that's a design flaw. I can't elaborate in a post really but what these MMOs should do is let "guilds support the players" rather then "players support the Guild". What I mean is- when a Guild takesover a node they should get money for that. Having ownership of a node should alone support a decent war effort. Now things like a Siege that can destroy other towns should require a massive grind (like Titans do in EVE). But I hope this game wont be like that.
I know, for a fact, that this is true from my experience playing the games that Darkfall is based off of.
yeah true but maybe a little grind won't hurt. I dont mind grinding if I really love the MMO although I must admit this is rare!!!
I enjoy Oblivion for everything but the combat. It works in that game, because everything else in the game is so good. Will it work online? No. Why don't games like Halo 3 have 300+ person matches? Counterstrike? That's very "modern" technology, Halo 3 is a little over a month old! Have you seen what happens in ANY online game when you have 300+ people in the same area? Even with the best, most highly optimized code and game engine (which a company like Blizzard is capable of creating) it just doesn't work for 99% of the players. Only the 1% of people with super-jacked up rigs and blazing fast direct pipe connections can play with minimal lag.
Halo 3 runs on xbox 360 platform. Microsoft has standards in their process they place on developers. Also, they are pushing graphical boundaries on xbox360 because they have single player content. When you have single player content- you can push the envelope graphically because you can control the environment and everything that hits rendering pipe.
But in MMORPG- you cannot control everything the players do. However, I contend gamers are not as silly as these new game devs think we are. A UO Programmer once said "gamers tend to spreadout naturally due to contention for resources, etc". So according to this rule, I do not think DFO will have this problem much. Now- in regards to a Guild city getting zerged might be an issue.
Trying to design a game for that 1% of players means that the game will not be commercially successful. It may survive as a nice, fun little niche game that is highly enjoyed by a few.
We are all niche players. We are all 1%. Open skill based systems alone is an anomaly they will not bend towards
And on the subject of PvP. Yes, I love fair, balanced PvP. PvP where I win because I am more skilled then the other player. I play FPS games for this, because NO MMO, especially not old school UO ever really has gotten it right. [/quote]
We are not asking for fair fights. We are role playing a character in a harsh environment that makes "sense". Even on roleplaying servers most have PVP enabled. If you want to play FPS go ahead but don't expect those of us that really want to be immersed into a realistic world where there is danger at every corner to join you.
Darkfall will be like every other FFA PvP game I have played. Gankers and griefers will love it, the rest of the population will be lambs to the slaughter. I've been a ganker/griefer, I've terrorized and victimized other players in online games... when I was 16. I have no interest in that flavor of PvP anymore, there is nothing "hardcore" about it, despite what others may try to make you believe. Throw in full player looting? You just wrecked the game for me. Unless gear means just about absolutely nothing like it did in old UO, then full looting is a terrible idea. But if gear has no meaning, why make it lootable? It's just an added annoyance invented by people who think it's "hardcore." The rest of us figured out a long time ago that there is nothing hardcore about this kind of game. It's difficult, frustrating, and tedius. The difficult part isn't bad, at all, I agree that most modern MMOs (including WoW) could stand to have some aspects made more challenging, but frustration and tedium are not something I want to pay for.
Yes but we can full loot NPCs as well here. I wouldn't panic over full looting. Also due to twitch based combat gear probably wont factor in much. For example, in Starport newbie ships do very well against even big huge veteran ships because we can dodge attacks
I've been following this game since early-mid 2005, admittedly not as long as those who have been waiting with baited breath since the original release date in 2003, but... here's the problem with Darkfall.
It's setting itself up to fail.
I have quite a bit of experience with object-oriented programming in C++, as well as the Unreal and Unreal 2 engines, HL2 mods and the LUI. While I don't know the specifics surrounding the Darkfall engine, I can tell you that the features they have proposed would require an absurd amount of specialized, unique coding, regardless of the engine. In looking at the history of development, I have a feeling that when they started working on the practical coding, they began to realize exactly how difficult these proposed features actually are.
Not only does the coding have to do what it's intended to do, it also has to be succinct and optimized in the best possible manner in order to integrate flawlessly with netcode that will need to be well above industry standards in order to handle what they're suggesting. Picture 100 people in a town environment, fighting a PvP battle. Every attack and every action by each player must be calculated by the server. Not just the numbers, but the radials as well. FPS style combat requires hitboxes for every character, which also requires above-average netcode to make it realistic. And that's just the combat. 10,000 players on one server? If you have multiple 100-200 person battles going on in the world, while the server still has to keep track of monster AI (building up settlements and such), incoming and outgoing TCP/IP traffic, authentication, reading and writing to and from the database... there is absolutely no way. There isn't. The lag will be unplayable unless Aventurine has licensed server technology from NASA.
I could be wrong. I have been before, and I will be again. But this just seems far too optimistic. If they somehow manage to pull it off, I will drool until it runs down my chin and turn into a rabid fanboy, but I just don't see the game being released with all of the listed features. Or, if it is, being playable with more than about 500 people per server.
Here's to hoping they can pull it off, but lets not get carried away and expect something too unrealistic.
I've been following this game since early-mid 2005, admittedly not as long as those who have been waiting with baited breath since the original release date in 2003, but... here's the problem with Darkfall. It's setting itself up to fail. I have quite a bit of experience with object-oriented programming in C++, as well as the Unreal and Unreal 2 engines, HL2 mods and the LUI. While I don't know the specifics surrounding the Darkfall engine, I can tell you that the features they have proposed would require an absurd amount of specialized, unique coding, regardless of the engine. In looking at the history of development, I have a feeling that when they started working on the practical coding, they began to realize exactly how difficult these proposed features actually are. Not only does the coding have to do what it's intended to do, it also has to be succinct and optimized in the best possible manner in order to integrate flawlessly with netcode that will need to be well above industry standards in order to handle what they're suggesting. Picture 100 people in a town environment, fighting a PvP battle. Every attack and every action by each player must be calculated by the server. Not just the numbers, but the radials as well. FPS style combat requires hitboxes for every character, which also requires above-average netcode to make it realistic. And that's just the combat. 10,000 players on one server? If you have multiple 100-200 person battles going on in the world, while the server still has to keep track of monster AI (building up settlements and such), incoming and outgoing TCP/IP traffic, authentication, reading and writing to and from the database... there is absolutely no way. There isn't. The lag will be unplayable unless Aventurine has licensed server technology from NASA. I could be wrong. I have been before, and I will be again. But this just seems far too optimistic. If they somehow manage to pull it off, I will drool until it runs down my chin and turn into a rabid fanboy, but I just don't see the game being released with all of the listed features. Or, if it is, being playable with more than about 500 people per server. Here's to hoping they can pull it off, but lets not get carried away and expect something too unrealistic.
I gotta say a good post cause you actually include your "Credentials" and have some backup to what your stating.
And although I agree to ane xtent i thought of this myself. They only have single hitboxes of an entire body (and shield if you count that) for purposes for balance as well as the networking.
But really I would hope that they would be smart enough to only say they can support 10k people per server if they actaully ran tests or hell just did some old fashion calculations to give htem a projected number as to how many people their servers can handle, hopefully with the new quad cores it wont really be too unrealistic. I believe amd is releasing their 2.5 or so barcelonas w/in the next few months so that could surely help.
But lets say they couldnt and really this is just alot of stuff being made up, why the hell would they continue on if they know they have a flop, they definately wouldnt be able to make a return to how much they put into it. 4+ years of programming that had to of been for a reason.
"The producers" doesnt really relate to video games so that has to be scratched off the list (it was a movie for anyone confused, look it up).
Originally posted by Strayfe I've been following this game since early-mid 2005, admittedly not as long as those who have been waiting with baited breath since the original release date in 2003, but... here's the problem with Darkfall. It's setting itself up to fail. I have quite a bit of experience with object-oriented programming in C++, as well as the Unreal and Unreal 2 engines, HL2 mods and the LUI. While I don't know the specifics surrounding the Darkfall engine, I can tell you that the features they have proposed would require an absurd amount of specialized, unique coding, regardless of the engine. In looking at the history of development, I have a feeling that when they started working on the practical coding, they began to realize exactly how difficult these proposed features actually are. Not only does the coding have to do what it's intended to do, it also has to be succinct and optimized in the best possible manner in order to integrate flawlessly with netcode that will need to be well above industry standards in order to handle what they're suggesting. Picture 100 people in a town environment, fighting a PvP battle. Every attack and every action by each player must be calculated by the server. Not just the numbers, but the radials as well. FPS style combat requires hitboxes for every character, which also requires above-average netcode to make it realistic. And that's just the combat. 10,000 players on one server? If you have multiple 100-200 person battles going on in the world, while the server still has to keep track of monster AI (building up settlements and such), incoming and outgoing TCP/IP traffic, authentication, reading and writing to and from the database... there is absolutely no way. There isn't. The lag will be unplayable unless Aventurine has licensed server technology from NASA. I could be wrong. I have been before, and I will be again. But this just seems far too optimistic. If they somehow manage to pull it off, I will drool until it runs down my chin and turn into a rabid fanboy, but I just don't see the game being released with all of the listed features. Or, if it is, being playable with more than about 500 people per server. Here's to hoping they can pull it off, but lets not get carried away and expect something too unrealistic.
I shipped C&C3 (command and conquer 3) with EA. I served as a gameplay programmer (official title). Did some networking stuff as well and did minor profiling.
We had a specialist we hired for profiling to be frank. What was discovered Collision detection never popped up. Realize in C&C3 (RTS) we have no limit/cap on number of units you can have. This is only limited by resources
So we're talking a huge number of units in our stress tests. Hundreds. And each have accurate volumes for each mesh.
Pathfinding was an offender- render time as an offender, but not collision detection.
This is why Unreal, HL2, and most any decent engine uses Spatial division to organize their scenes. It makes collision queries really fast.
Next, you dont have to believe me just go look at Huxley, Spellborn, and the many other MMOFPS/RPG variants coming out. They say they can do it. Look at Asheron's call 1 they already did it
I cannot reveal where I got this but suffice to say I know of an MMO in development right now that is running HAVOK (physics) in an MMO coming out in next few yrs. {edit- k just checked online I can say that Sony liscensed HAVOK for an MMO because that much is public info.}
MMO devs are not so much concerned about the server they control that. Game Developers we worry about YOU. We worry bout the Client. The rendering pipe, too much text and combat logs getting spammed. Client performance is the worry. We want to run on most machines.
DFO looks pretty low poly too me (character renders).
Anyway, sure they might not be able to pull it off. I have no clue! But I do KNOW a good professional Game Developer with highly experienced vets can pull it off. Many developers are doing it
Also think about this guys- almost every MMO already has at the very least 'locational' attacks. In WoW, this was bombs via goblin engineering. You could 'aim' where to place the bomb and players can dodge that
In city of heroes we also have aimed attacks like this
DDO (didnt play that one) also has 'aimed' attacks
This is nothing, nothing new guys. most every MMO on the market has some sort of location based attack already that you must aim.
not to mention that compared to counter-strike halo 3 or any other game with multiple hitboxes that must be calculated and what not, theres only going to be 2 hitboxes at hte most per character (body and shield). Im sure that'll take a load off the cpus (wonder if they'd end up going dual quad cores *drool*)
Comments
Tanking is a lot more then that, but you'd have to tank to know it. In WoW, tanking is all about position, timing, and threat/aggro management. These make up the 50% of playing WoW that is player skill. You won't understand how much deeper it is then "spam this button" if you haven't done it. The other 50% of WoW playing at end-game is Talent spec and gear. You are right on that, but can't seem to get past the idea that it is also so much more due to your bias.
I love skill system based games, which I define as you pick your characters skills, and advanced those skills by using them (i.e. Oblivion, old UO) I like freedom and I like choice. I want to build my character as I want to build them, and I want to have the freedom to choose what role I play.
I hate grinding on mobs / missions/ trade skills mindlessly for hours and hours and hours. Sandbox games have both. They have the freedom to do what you want to do, to create your own content, but they also have NO content other then grinding. It may be hard to understand, but look at old UO and pre-NGE SWG. You can't deny the facts.
FPS combat has no place in a MMO due to the technological limitations of our current networks and hardware. Look at planetside, WW2 online, etc. How popular are those?
Do you really think an unknown Indy developer is going to magically figure out a way to make FPS combat work on a large, MMO scale when dozens of well funded, proven, highly successful and talented developers haven't?
*edit*
Oh, and I don't play WoW anymore. You arguments make you sound ignorant and combative. I, at least, am trying to be civil, intelligent, and intellectual. Learn from Vajuras, he knows how to argue!
Tanking is a lot more then that, but you'd have to tank to know it. In WoW, tanking is all about position, timing, and threat/aggro management. These make up the 50% of playing WoW that is player skill. You won't understand how much deeper it is then "spam this button" if you haven't done it. The other 50% of WoW playing at end-game is Talent spec and gear. You are right on that, but can't seem to get past the idea that it is also so much more due to your bias.
I love skill system based games, which I define as you pick your characters skills, and advanced those skills by using them (i.e. Oblivion, old UO) I like freedom and I like choice. I want to build my character as I want to build them, and I want to have the freedom to choose what role I play.
I hate grinding on mobs / missions/ trade skills mindlessly for hours and hours and hours. Sandbox games have both. They have the freedom to do what you want to do, to create your own content, but they also have NO content other then grinding. It may be hard to understand, but look at old UO and pre-NGE SWG. You can't deny the facts.
FPS combat has no place in a MMO due to the technological limitations of our current networks and hardware. Look at planetside, WW2 online, etc. How popular are those?
Do you really think an unknown Indy developer is going to magically figure out a way to make FPS combat work on a large, MMO scale when dozens of well funded, proven, highly successful and talented developers haven't?
*edit*
Oh, and I don't play WoW anymore. You arguments make you sound ignorant and combative. I, at least, am trying to be civil, intelligent, and intellectual. Learn from Vajuras, he knows how to argue!
You see the thing that makes me laugh (I dont blame you cause it sbetter to teach than flame and just keep people from wanting to steer clear of that which they feel is right). Agro management is kind of a "Need to know" thing of anything including tanking, so thats kind of not needed to be stated (Yet its good for the folks that dont really know any better so im neutral on it).
But you say " love skill system based games, which I define as you pick your characters skills, and advanced those skills by using them (i.e. Oblivion, old UO) I like freedom and I like choice. I want to build my character as I want to build them, and I want to have the freedom to choose what role I play.
I hate grinding on mobs / missions/ trade skills mindlessly for hours and hours and hours. Sandbox games have both. They have the freedom to do what you want to do, to create your own content, but they also have NO content other then grinding. It may be hard to understand, but look at old UO and pre-NGE SWG. You can't deny the facts."
Your basicaly saying you want an old school UO with Oblivion aspects.....DARKFALL IS IT. Its like oblivion (excep tits third person in melee combat) and their main influence is UO.
Your freedom of choice, theres over like 200 skills (500 skills+Spells yes but i dont know the exact number of JUST SKILLS but theres defintaely more than WoW lawl) To choose from. You dont choose which ones you want persay. You say which ones you want. You say "I want to shovel in a farm all day" you pick up a shovel and do it. You say "I want to learn how to block better" you pick up a shield and do it. "i want to learn hwo to bake pies (Asheron's call DTers know what im talkin about ) you makea mofkin pie!!
Now your networking complications are basicaly a thing of the past. Especially now with quad cores coming out theres so much more that can be done. Once we have all the fiber optics in place and even got ourselves quantum transisters with the flux capaciters ready, it'll be like story telling! (Yes im actaully just joking around with thequantam flux jazz).
But really they even stated that performance is their main thing, they're choosing FPS over looks when it comes to 300+ people battles (which there will be when you have a n alliance benging at your castle walls looking to destroy it...whcih is 100% true). They stated that they are doing whatever it takes to have maximum performance, including but not limited to, network. They originaly even left out shield blocking and had it automatic (asheron's call and almost every mmo before hand, excluding DandD) because of network problems, bu tthey recently added it in to be manual.
If you want a tanker with skill you might like darkfall, even though i used the whoel die alot in darkfall quote, you could probably see that it would be so much more fun/strategical since you have very many things you have to watch out for, including Friendly Fire. But get this, if someone tries to heal their teamate that your attacking, if they accidentaly aim at you, they heal you. Yes sure it could be done visa versa.
Really it sounds like your basicaly explaining that you want a game like darkfall, but fo rsome reason all you think it is is, join a server get some headshots (which do not exist in darkfall FOR BALANCE REASONS) and then log off. When infact its not, its very much so an rpg but it takes more thinking, you have to know what to agro, where to move, where to attack, what to attack with. Now i dont know if theres multi strike positions i wont lie (Like you stated in dark messiah, which was a very awesome game just needed more support).
But darkfall isnt for everyone, its going to be ahardcore universe that even I might not even like when is tart getting pwned. But with full loot on death, being able to steal someones horse but jumping on its back when they get off or hell even just chopping someones head off and using it as a trophy, you can always remember. When you respawn, and you notice how cheap weapons and armor will be for hte most part, and you see that guy walking towards you. You know that you'd rather reak your vengeance then just let him walk away.
Oh ya anothe rthing, hasnt there been a time when you were annoyed by some kid that keeps messing around on WoW, wouldnt you rather just pwn the hell out of him than just listen to him rag on about go dknows what especially when he KEEPS DECLINING THE DUEL INVITATION.
I gave WoW a shot and i didnt like it. Really all im asking for you to do is accept that darkfall isnt just some random shooter that all you have to do is get a few frags and you r l33t, but much mor ehtan that. This is the last bastion of good gaming that most us PVPrz have been looking forward to since Old school AC DT (w00t w00t) or even UO.
You are assuming far too much about me.
I played old school UO, I enjoyed it at the time.
I played pre-NGE SWG, and I enjoyed it at the time.
I play Oblivion and I enjoy.
Darkfall is promising to have many features shared by these games. However, UO, SWG, and Oblivion were created by some of the top gaming developers on the planet, not by a 3rd party unknown Indy developer that has been working on the game for 7 years, and has been a "year from release" according to the very DF fans who patrol these forums for over 3 years.
Notice, that I said "I enjoyed it at the time."
What you missed was that I said "sandbox type games have the freedom of choice and the ability to choose your role/destiny etc. but they also have NO content besides what you the player creates."
With no content other then player created content, you grind.
You can't be involved in epic sieges and PvP warfare and naval battles etc. 100% of the time you are playing the game. It wasn't true in UO, it wasn't true in SWG, and it's not going to be true in Darkfall. You are going to spend the majority of your time grinding to make money, improve your skills etc. so that when the opportunity for epic, player created fun happens, you'll be "ready."
I know, for a fact, that this is true from my experience playing the games that Darkfall is based off of.
I enjoy Oblivion for everything but the combat. It works in that game, because everything else in the game is so good. Will it work online? No.
Why don't games like Halo 3 have 300+ person matches? Counterstrike? That's very "modern" technology, Halo 3 is a little over a month old! Have you seen what happens in ANY online game when you have 300+ people in the same area? Even with the best, most highly optimized code and game engine (which a company like Blizzard is capable of creating) it just doesn't work for 99% of the players. Only the 1% of people with super-jacked up rigs and blazing fast direct pipe connections can play with minimal lag.
Trying to design a game for that 1% of players means that the game will not be commercially successful. It may survive as a nice, fun little niche game that is highly enjoyed by a few.
And on the subject of PvP. Yes, I love fair, balanced PvP. PvP where I win because I am more skilled then the other player. I play FPS games for this, because NO MMO, especially not old school UO ever really has gotten it right.
Darkfall will be like every other FFA PvP game I have played. Gankers and griefers will love it, the rest of the population will be lambs to the slaughter. I've been a ganker/griefer, I've terrorized and victimized other players in online games... when I was 16. I have no interest in that flavor of PvP anymore, there is nothing "hardcore" about it, despite what others may try to make you believe.
Throw in full player looting? You just wrecked the game for me. Unless gear means just about absolutely nothing like it did in old UO, then full looting is a terrible idea. But if gear has no meaning, why make it lootable? It's just an added annoyance invented by people who think it's "hardcore."
The rest of us figured out a long time ago that there is nothing hardcore about this kind of game. It's difficult, frustrating, and tedius. The difficult part isn't bad, at all, I agree that most modern MMOs (including WoW) could stand to have some aspects made more challenging, but frustration and tedium are not something I want to pay for.
Just to remind you, the last dev post said something about "Ping not being important as Darkfall wouldn't be an FPS".
Don't get your hopes up too much, guys.
There has already been MMOs with realtime combat in the past I am not getting my hopes up I know what to expect based on experiences with similar features in the past. Realtime combat in MMOs has been here for quite some time
Ok, you just went into detail about what I said that FPS games require you to take advantage of opportunities (and/or create them) and are all about positioning. I'm not debating that.
I'm just saying that Darkfall will not be like that. It will be like Fury or Oblivion in terms of how FPS it is.
You want fantasy FPS play Dark Messiah. That is fantasy FPS done right. If they make Darkfall like that, it may be a good combat game.
Dark Messiah is not an MMO nor is Oblivion. Fury does not have realtime dodging either. In Oblivion you can't even fight against another player?
That is a good argument there about technology supporting large scale FPS combat. And it is a solid argument can this Adventurine make anything at all happen? Yes, good argument and I dunno
But a good developer can get FPS working. I saw Huxley at E3 2006 and it seemed fine too me. Spellborn devs have realtime combat and they stated everything works fine for large scale combat (but perhaps they only meant meeting in big groups in a town so I give ya that). Spellborn is still early so we will see...
Starport is all realtime combat and it works fine. When everything is a "projectile" think about it. We are not talking FPS per se. We are talking bout dodging a projectile like an Arrow or Magic Spell. That is not really ping dependant.
I apologize when I say "FPS" on MMORPG boards I refer to "shooter" elements like dodging projectiles. I am not picky how Aim is handled. Whether projectiles are auto-seeking or aimed matters not too me as long as they collide with Terrain. My reasoning is Warrior types can have a good fight against a Mage. I am also biased because in GODZ (modification for UT I coded) our 3rdf person combat worked this way
Asheron's Call 1 had these elements so it is proven. I am not speaking of doing server side raytraces but rather making everything a projectile (all ranged attacks) which is not Ping dependant.
tryout Starport or AC1 if you havent.
{edit} So I will give ya Huxely and Spellborn since they are not out. I will concede on planetside because I never played. But realtime "projectiles" works and I can vouch for that (realtime dodging) and it is not heavily ping dependant
It doesnt mtater if a company has a name for themselves. I mean cmon look at EA one of the "top companies" and they throw out crappy games all the time. its just that they make so many of htem they're making a good profit. SWG although was fun, was a crappy game and that was how long in development? By what company? It wasnt even fully completed and still has problems (even with NGE, PRE-cu was the best). At least Adventurine is trying to make the game with quality instead of just trying to make a quick buck (And hey will go into self publication if necessary).
And actually they even stated they want to run Server events where you have to fight Demi-gods complete "epic" quests or any of that sort of stuff (yes i said DEMI-GODS). And i mean even the "grind" will be its own siege. You go out side you'll see a goblin camp, you leave that alone, it will litteraly upgrade to a stronger camp, the longer you leave it alone the higher level it will become, once they become powerful enough they will litteraly raid the nearest town. Also its dynamic spawn, so you wont laways have that same little camp to continuously farm. And its not only players that are going to be in the world, like i just said there will be NPC's. So you can always have a naval battle whether its with NPC pirates or NPC sea monsters. Its all there. And so what if the dev's arent always behind the server creating thesse epic instances 100% of the time, I dont think i'd constantly want to fight in those massive battles, sometimes soloing....or get this.....EXPLORING the world is fun enough. (their world is going to be massive, mainly hand created across many square miles, dont remember hte exact number they projected).
As for networking. You actually can do that pretty well, most game servers (halo, cs strike) are actaully shared. SO you can have liek 20 CS game servers on 1 server platform. But with most mmo's its just 1 server to host alot of people. SO you have more resources goign to just that one server, and of course their going to only allow X amount of players per server, bringing in more that is needed (with the lack of hitboxes it requires less server resources, shot to the foot is the same as a shot to the face, balance purposes as well as network) so instead of saying Player 1 part 366 its just player 1 hits player 2 with X. And hell maybe htey have something else up there sleeve that their just not lettin out. But what would you think if they did have 10k people per server fighting in 300+ battles with little lag. Would you even care?
And btw, blizzard used that engine. Molded it off of games previouse to it. They didnt make anything new, ever wonder why WoW and DAOC were so similar? Not to mention you dont need a "jacked up rig" they're creating the game that you can play with super duper upper graphics, or just menial. They're trying to make it so someone that could run CS 1.6 can run Darkfall decently well.
Do you think they were just drawing leaves on a tree for 3+ years? Most of their programming has been around balance. With 300 skills and 200 spells (yes just found this http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setView/overview/gameId/4 old news but still reference) why would you rush that.
well get this. Your the highest level in your class (swordsmen or whatever) because you just bought it off of ebay. You have all the "Uber gear" that came with the accoutn. you come across someone that looks as if they are about medium "level" to you. You come infor an attack, they dont have all the shiny armor or weapons taht you have, but they kick the shit out of you...know why? WEAPONS AND ARMOR ARE ONLY 25% OF WHAT GIVES YOUR STRENGHT. 75% of the game is player skills (knowing what to use, when to use it how to use whether its skills, items or movement)
Im not sure why your playing WoW if what your looking for is actaul player control instead of items, cause items are what give you the power in WoW (this is usually when people bringin the world of roguecraft....what a joke).
In any case Just because these guys are not Blizzard (not to mention not using an overused mechanic) doesnt mean they cannot make something unique, as welll as working.
Im sure if a company says they can handle 300+ people battles as well as 10k people per server, they have statistics to back it up or else thats called fraudulent claims, and in some countries can be sued for that.
Either way when this game comes out, its going to be something unique and big and osmething that will revolutionize MMO's to date. im nto really into the cookie cutter mmo's, nor the mmo's where you have to grind then pvp. I'd rather grind WITH PVP (Yes your skills will increase whether its monster or player). But like i said its your choice to disagree with me, all im trying to do is convince (which is perfectly legitamate). If the game doesnt come out anywhere near as close as they say (which has happened in the past with many other games, including swg) then I was wrong. Otherwise these guys seem pretty lcose to their word, and the articles that are written about hands on with the game tend to say that this game has included everything they stated it would have....and then some.
okay I see I perhaps made a big mistake bringing up WoW as an example. I played a Shaman extensively in that MMO (about a year) but didn't play a Tank. I play Warrior role in other MMOs personally.
From your angle, it takes skill in regards to PVE. But from my angle, I am uncertain how much "skill" factored when I dueled my fellow shaman that had same talent spec (or really similar where it counted), same Class, and I lost everytime (100%) due to gear discrepancy
Now in regards to PVE balance I agree perhaps that is skill but I wonder how much of that is memorization? Only because PVE mobs do not change- those encounters are static
But I digress- I suppose that is "skill" but in regards to PVP I wonder how much of my skill counted. I suppose it is a factor sure it would be wrong to see it didnt count. But sometimes, too me, gear counted more (PVP)
Yeah DF has bad PR man I give ya that.
This is true for most players but I would contend that's a design flaw. I can't elaborate in a post really but what these MMOs should do is let "guilds support the players" rather then "players support the Guild". What I mean is- when a Guild takesover a node they should get money for that. Having ownership of a node should alone support a decent war effort. Now things like a Siege that can destroy other towns should require a massive grind (like Titans do in EVE). But I hope this game wont be like that.
yeah true but maybe a little grind won't hurt. I dont mind grinding if I really love the MMO although I must admit this is rare!!!
Halo 3 runs on xbox 360 platform. Microsoft has standards in their process they place on developers. Also, they are pushing graphical boundaries on xbox360 because they have single player content. When you have single player content- you can push the envelope graphically because you can control the environment and everything that hits rendering pipe.
But in MMORPG- you cannot control everything the players do. However, I contend gamers are not as silly as these new game devs think we are. A UO Programmer once said "gamers tend to spreadout naturally due to contention for resources, etc". So according to this rule, I do not think DFO will have this problem much. Now- in regards to a Guild city getting zerged might be an issue.
We are all niche players. We are all 1%. Open skill based systems alone is an anomaly they will not bend towards
And on the subject of PvP. Yes, I love fair, balanced PvP. PvP where I win because I am more skilled then the other player. I play FPS games for this, because NO MMO, especially not old school UO ever really has gotten it right.
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We are not asking for fair fights. We are role playing a character in a harsh environment that makes "sense". Even on roleplaying servers most have PVP enabled. If you want to play FPS go ahead but don't expect those of us that really want to be immersed into a realistic world where there is danger at every corner to join you.
Yes but we can full loot NPCs as well here. I wouldn't panic over full looting. Also due to twitch based combat gear probably wont factor in much. For example, in Starport newbie ships do very well against even big huge veteran ships because we can dodge attacks
I've been following this game since early-mid 2005, admittedly not as long as those who have been waiting with baited breath since the original release date in 2003, but... here's the problem with Darkfall.
It's setting itself up to fail.
I have quite a bit of experience with object-oriented programming in C++, as well as the Unreal and Unreal 2 engines, HL2 mods and the LUI. While I don't know the specifics surrounding the Darkfall engine, I can tell you that the features they have proposed would require an absurd amount of specialized, unique coding, regardless of the engine. In looking at the history of development, I have a feeling that when they started working on the practical coding, they began to realize exactly how difficult these proposed features actually are.
Not only does the coding have to do what it's intended to do, it also has to be succinct and optimized in the best possible manner in order to integrate flawlessly with netcode that will need to be well above industry standards in order to handle what they're suggesting. Picture 100 people in a town environment, fighting a PvP battle. Every attack and every action by each player must be calculated by the server. Not just the numbers, but the radials as well. FPS style combat requires hitboxes for every character, which also requires above-average netcode to make it realistic. And that's just the combat. 10,000 players on one server? If you have multiple 100-200 person battles going on in the world, while the server still has to keep track of monster AI (building up settlements and such), incoming and outgoing TCP/IP traffic, authentication, reading and writing to and from the database... there is absolutely no way. There isn't. The lag will be unplayable unless Aventurine has licensed server technology from NASA.
I could be wrong. I have been before, and I will be again. But this just seems far too optimistic. If they somehow manage to pull it off, I will drool until it runs down my chin and turn into a rabid fanboy, but I just don't see the game being released with all of the listed features. Or, if it is, being playable with more than about 500 people per server.
Here's to hoping they can pull it off, but lets not get carried away and expect something too unrealistic.
My blog:
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Strayfe/
I gotta say a good post cause you actually include your "Credentials" and have some backup to what your stating.
And although I agree to ane xtent i thought of this myself. They only have single hitboxes of an entire body (and shield if you count that) for purposes for balance as well as the networking.
But really I would hope that they would be smart enough to only say they can support 10k people per server if they actaully ran tests or hell just did some old fashion calculations to give htem a projected number as to how many people their servers can handle, hopefully with the new quad cores it wont really be too unrealistic. I believe amd is releasing their 2.5 or so barcelonas w/in the next few months so that could surely help.
But lets say they couldnt and really this is just alot of stuff being made up, why the hell would they continue on if they know they have a flop, they definately wouldnt be able to make a return to how much they put into it. 4+ years of programming that had to of been for a reason.
"The producers" doesnt really relate to video games so that has to be scratched off the list (it was a movie for anyone confused, look it up).
I shipped C&C3 (command and conquer 3) with EA. I served as a gameplay programmer (official title). Did some networking stuff as well and did minor profiling.
We had a specialist we hired for profiling to be frank. What was discovered Collision detection never popped up. Realize in C&C3 (RTS) we have no limit/cap on number of units you can have. This is only limited by resources
So we're talking a huge number of units in our stress tests. Hundreds. And each have accurate volumes for each mesh.
Pathfinding was an offender- render time as an offender, but not collision detection.
This is why Unreal, HL2, and most any decent engine uses Spatial division to organize their scenes. It makes collision queries really fast.
Next, you dont have to believe me just go look at Huxley, Spellborn, and the many other MMOFPS/RPG variants coming out. They say they can do it. Look at Asheron's call 1 they already did it
I cannot reveal where I got this but suffice to say I know of an MMO in development right now that is running HAVOK (physics) in an MMO coming out in next few yrs. {edit- k just checked online I can say that Sony liscensed HAVOK for an MMO because that much is public info.}
MMO devs are not so much concerned about the server they control that. Game Developers we worry about YOU. We worry bout the Client. The rendering pipe, too much text and combat logs getting spammed. Client performance is the worry. We want to run on most machines.
DFO looks pretty low poly too me (character renders).
Anyway, sure they might not be able to pull it off. I have no clue! But I do KNOW a good professional Game Developer with highly experienced vets can pull it off. Many developers are doing it
Also think about this guys- almost every MMO already has at the very least 'locational' attacks. In WoW, this was bombs via goblin engineering. You could 'aim' where to place the bomb and players can dodge that
In city of heroes we also have aimed attacks like this
DDO (didnt play that one) also has 'aimed' attacks
This is nothing, nothing new guys. most every MMO on the market has some sort of location based attack already that you must aim.
not to mention that compared to counter-strike halo 3 or any other game with multiple hitboxes that must be calculated and what not, theres only going to be 2 hitboxes at hte most per character (body and shield). Im sure that'll take a load off the cpus (wonder if they'd end up going dual quad cores *drool*)