AmazingAveryAge of Conan AdvocateMemberUncommonPosts: 7,188
Originally posted by Shannia
Originally posted by AmazingAvery
Originally posted by Shadin
Looking forward to this even more now..! RP-PVP here I come!
Originally Posted by Athelan Just so you know PvP and RP PvP servers would be identical as far as code, the difference would the added presence of the RP guidelines that will be composed by Customer Service.
Cities as safe zones work for me when crafting
"RP guidelines that will be composed by Customer Service" So, what is going to be more important to them... Enforcing RP rules or the player's $15 a month? My money says there will be no RP ruleset enforcement. Show me a AAA game that enforces RP rule sets. I have yet to see one.
You can have to go to MUDs and such too see true RP rule set enforcement.
Also, after reading what Athelan said about looting and such, I have that feeling that crafting is going to be cancelled, very limited or even added to the game well after launch as it is obviously never mentioned as "core" to the game as Athelan defines it.
We are just going to have to wait and see what specific rules there will be and how enforcement will be honoured. For starters our guild is signed up to a player created "Hyborian Accord" (most big guilds have like Snowhawk for eg.) and we specifically have joined an alliance forming with 3 other guilds pre game. Atleast on our RP server we have helped the population by being more pro RP. But I would be very interested to see how the rules play out too.
I just want to point out that we have not revealed the crafting system yet, so I suggest not drawing any conclusions just yet. It certainly won't be the most detailed one out there, but it's not going to be the shallowest either. Age of Conan is not an economical trade simulation, but we're committed to presenting a solid crafting system in the game, a system that is -- above all else -- entertaining to the player.
We'll reveal all the details about it in due time.
Looking forward to this even more now..! RP-PVP here I come!
Originally Posted by Athelan Just so you know PvP and RP PvP servers would be identical as far as code, the difference would the added presence of the RP guidelines that will be composed by Customer Service.
Cities as safe zones work for me when crafting
"RP guidelines that will be composed by Customer Service" So, what is going to be more important to them... Enforcing RP rules or the player's $15 a month? My money says there will be no RP ruleset enforcement. Show me a AAA game that enforces RP rule sets. I have yet to see one.
You can have to go to MUDs and such too see true RP rule set enforcement.
Also, after reading what Athelan said about looting and such, I have that feeling that crafting is going to be cancelled, very limited or even added to the game well after launch as it is obviously never mentioned as "core" to the game as Athelan defines it.
DAOC used to enforce RP rules sets...at least as far as player names and other minor infractions. But no, they never came down hard on anyone too often as they didn't have the manpower to handle such complaints.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Thank you, Avery. I appreciate the post on the latest dev posting about crafting. That statement is a far cry from last years "crafting is the core of the game" as far as gear goes stance. As with all things, AoC can and will change during development. I guess you'll have to tell me how crafting is after launch.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
AmazingAveryAge of Conan AdvocateMemberUncommonPosts: 7,188
Originally posted by Shannia
Thank you, Avery. I appreciate the post on the latest dev posting about crafting. That statement is a far cry from last years "crafting is the core of the game" as far as gear goes stance. As with all things, AoC can and will change during development. I guess you'll have to tell me how crafting is after launch.
I think its important to remember that alot of focus is on the Sieging, and thus with the way things are all the buildings are destructable. And will need repairing!
Same goes for the structures in your PvE city.
Also because of the seperate PvP levels, I believe there is seperate gear and feats to be trained in that area. One would assume that weapon/armor crafting for PvP might be a little bit different too. So we have all these different area's of focus for the crafter and again seperate branch lines for specifics but all inclusive of needing materials just like in any mmorpg.
Remember Crafting is not experience based, the next tiers are gained through quests attributed to the specific skill your inclined to follow, and upon completion you will have new things to make. As a crafter only you can master 3 out of the 5 types available. Only high end stuff can be made in guild cities.
Raw materials are still needed, but it doesn't make it seem like a daily job.
I have to add in though with seperate PvP levels, at least when a PvP skill gets nerfed it wont affect your PvE experience - and vice versa :P
AmazingAveryAge of Conan AdvocateMemberUncommonPosts: 7,188
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Shannia
Originally posted by AmazingAvery
Originally posted by Shadin
Looking forward to this even more now..! RP-PVP here I come!
Originally Posted by Athelan Just so you know PvP and RP PvP servers would be identical as far as code, the difference would the added presence of the RP guidelines that will be composed by Customer Service.
Cities as safe zones work for me when crafting
"RP guidelines that will be composed by Customer Service" So, what is going to be more important to them... Enforcing RP rules or the player's $15 a month? My money says there will be no RP ruleset enforcement. Show me a AAA game that enforces RP rule sets. I have yet to see one.
You can have to go to MUDs and such too see true RP rule set enforcement.
Also, after reading what Athelan said about looting and such, I have that feeling that crafting is going to be cancelled, very limited or even added to the game well after launch as it is obviously never mentioned as "core" to the game as Athelan defines it.
DAOC used to enforce RP rules sets...at least as far as player names and other minor infractions. But no, they never came down hard on anyone too often as they didn't have the manpower to handle such complaints.
Now to the topic. This sounds like great news indeed, I have to agree with the developer, if the core game doesn't kick butt, the game will flop, period. A healthy dev attitude for sure.
sounds good to me, FFA will make people happy who are into that stuff i personally will be playing on a normal server, PVP when I want, and not PVP when i dont want to
my only question is:
will you gain experience towards leveling from PvP?
without it, open FFA PvP in a level based game is silly.
If you can/do get XP from PvP on FFA servers... might be a nice purchase for my 360 (don't think my PC could handle the graphics well enough for PvP in this game)
sounds good to me, FFA will make people happy who are into that stuff i personally will be playing on a normal server, PVP when I want, and not PVP when i dont want to
my only question is:
will you gain experience towards leveling from PvP?
without it, open FFA PvP in a level based game is silly.
If you can/do get XP from PvP on FFA servers... might be a nice purchase for my 360 (don't think my PC could handle the graphics well enough for PvP in this game)
Blood money looting = honor points in wow. Grind it out to buy more gear, no thanks. Wont matter if pvp is everywere, since noone has anything to lose the pvp will have no meaning and get boring after abit......just like on wow "pvp" servers.
Blood Money does NOT equal Honor in WoW. Athelan, the dev who designed the system, has stated it was designed differently with intention.
Listen to this interview right here, Athelan himself goes into depth on how and why Blood Money != Honor;
Well, for all those times I died in Vanguard crafting, calling safe cities FFA...well insulting
--- And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there. John Smedley, SOE
AmazingAveryAge of Conan AdvocateMemberUncommonPosts: 7,188
Originally posted by Fion
Originally posted by strongaxe
Blood money looting = honor points in wow. Grind it out to buy more gear, no thanks. Wont matter if pvp is everywere, since noone has anything to lose the pvp will have no meaning and get boring after abit......just like on wow "pvp" servers.
Blood Money does NOT equal Honor in WoW. Athelan, the dev who designed the system, has stated it was designed differently with intention.
Listen to this interview right here, Athelan himself goes into depth on how and why Blood Money != Honor;
I could have sworn that Athelon says in the interview that blood money can be used to access unique items, vendors, and skills. I must be pretty slow tonight because I'm still trying to figure out the key differences between blood money and honor (other than that blood money can be taken away if you are killed). If WoW's honor is used to buy gear to make it easier to kill in pvp, and AoC's blood money is used to buy skills/items to make it easier to kill in pvp, is there a real difference between the two besides semantics?
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence. Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
AmazingAveryAge of Conan AdvocateMemberUncommonPosts: 7,188
Originally posted by Grunties
I could have sworn that Athelon says in the interview that blood money can be used to access unique items, vendors, and skills. I must be pretty slow tonight because I'm still trying to figure out the key differences between blood money and honor (other than that blood money can be taken away if you are killed). If WoW's honor is used to buy gear to make it easier to kill in pvp, and AoC's blood money is used to buy skills/items to make it easier to kill in pvp, is there a real difference between the two besides semantics?
Here are some quotes over the last year about Blood Money
"Blood Money is Loot
You can think of blood money as being very similar to looting normal money off of people except with the heightened risk of it being "tainted" from the way you aquired it."
"Blood Coins is looting. PvP levels are advancement"
"Blood Money is looting for PvP in a controllable method to prevent issues of muling etc because it can be restricted in ways normal money cannot.
You do not buy armor/weapons with blood money. I believe I said this in the very first thread about it after the announcement. Just because we said you could get items, does not mean it is the same as WoW."
"Blood Money will be required by the trainers who will train you in your PvP related feats, and there will be merchants that will sell things for Blood Money as Blood Money needs to be useful, and these things sold will be pvp related, but its not a magic vendor with some faction requirements and just save up X amount of Blood Money to buy an omg leet sword of uber pk.
Your advancement is in your Pvp Levels and choice of feats, Blood Money is again, looting, it is money from the fallen foes hewn before your blade."
"Come on guys lets not do the "theorycraft assumption and complain about what we assume" game.
Blood money is not advancement, how do I know? hehe because I have been working on the PvP levels and abilities which are advancement. Again, apparently some people have not heard me say "This is not WoW"
"If I kill you and take your wallet, I get money, yay, but does that make it "advancement" perhaps by a literal definition anything that increases anything on your character in any way would be advancement, but I've never considered currency the same way I would consider say levels.
Distribution of the Blood Money and the "Kill" are certainly not final, thats why I said I would imagine it would use such a system. It will be fleshed out and balanced during the continued phases of Beta but moaning about what doesn't exist now certainly won't change things or make the game better."
"Farming blood money would not serve much purpose. It would be like each of giving the other one a dollar and then giving it back.
The goal of blood money is what you spoke about here:
"My whole take on the blood money thing is that, yes it's cool we can loot players, and steal their blood money. It adds to the spice of PVP."
"It is not something for the players to grind in order to get their reward"
"Blood money will work in groups as well
Priests can kill people
Blood money is not meant to be WoW honor, it not a currency in the form of being what you save up to buy a shiny new sword, thats not the point, its blood money because it comes from foes and most people dont want to touch it. Hence only the shady types will accept it, like a fence or something.
Blood money is not advancement, its loot from the headless corpse of your enemy sprawled in the weeds.
Yes special PvP trainers could very well be found out in dangerous areas."
Weeelllll... though I certainly appreciate the additional quotes it seems to me like it is more lore differences than functional differences. I'm not arguing that they have some sort of backstory to how one gets blood money, whereas WoW doesn't. And they also have the ability to lose blood money you've accumulated, while WoW doesn't.
But... I'm looking at it from the pure gameplay perspective, how does one actually get blood money and how does someone without blood money fare in pvp against someone who has earned lots of blood money. If the answer to the first is 'kill enemies' and the answer to the second is 'they are stronger in pvp', than ultimately I feel both systems have the same overall gameplay effect. Even more so if the player is the type to not care much for the lore behind it.
So, thank you again for the links. Though having read them I cannot say that I've seen evidence to suggest the two are, at the core, that different at all. A slightly modified version perhaps. But I would imagine that all of the same complaints about WoW's honor system will be leveled against AoC's blood money, in time.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence. Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
AmazingAveryAge of Conan AdvocateMemberUncommonPosts: 7,188
Originally posted by Grunties
Weeelllll... though I certainly appreciate the additional quotes it seems to me like it is more lore differences than functional differences. I'm not arguing that they have some sort of backstory to how one gets blood money, whereas WoW doesn't. And they also have the ability to lose blood money you've accumulated, while WoW doesn't. But... I'm looking at it from the pure gameplay perspective, how does one actually get blood money and how does someone without blood money fare in pvp against someone who has earned lots of blood money. If the answer to the first is 'kill enemies' and the answer to the second is 'they are stronger in pvp', than ultimately I feel both systems have the same overall gameplay effect. Even more so if the player is the type to not care much for the lore behind it. So, thank you again for the links. Though having read them I cannot say that I've seen evidence to suggest the two are, at the core, that different at all. A slightly modified version perhaps. But I would imagine that all of the same complaints about WoW's honor system will be leveled against AoC's blood money, in time.
Im sorry but it has nothing to do with the Lore, Blood Money is just another name for Loot. aka Blood Coins.
Also the system is being tweaked on in Beta as said above, so whether it will receive acolade or distaste is mute, because the game isn't even out yet, so its kinda hard to form an opinion on how it will fair.
The thing is with this 'loot' which is seperate from normal coinage. It therefore has additional meaning. Because someone has more blood money than someone with little has no meaning really, I listed some things you can do with your blood money. You dont gain levels in it, it doesn't have any consequence in combat whatsoever. It gives you the ability to seek out PvP trainers "Blood Money will be required by the trainers who will train you in your PvP related feats, and there will be merchants that will sell things for Blood Money as Blood Money needs to be useful, and these things sold will be pvp related, but its not a magic vendor with some faction requirements and just save up X amount of Blood Money to buy an omg leet sword of uber pk."
Im just wondering if you actually read the quotes I put up..
The only way it will make you stronger is if you use it to train certain feats, learn them and just be the better skilled fighter in combat. So if player A has more Blood Money than player B it won't make any difference in a fight especially the way the system is set out.
You hypothetically, asked two questions and answered them yourself. You loot people for blood money to do that you have to kill someone (because its a unique loot) - having more than someone else wont make you a better fighter. And farming the stuff is pointless.
I believe it also costs blood coin to enter the border kingdom (although I may be mistaken)
Point is there are like 3 devs saying its nothing like WoW's honor system, advancements for gear is done differently, advancements for PvP are done via only PvP levels. Blood Coins (pvp loot) could be 'tainted' in some fashion that has not been explained fully yet.
*EDIT further to that the system and how it will play out on a PvP type server where its OPEN pvp everywhere is still undetirmined. There has always been talk of a form of looting one way or another for a long time. I would expect / hope for an update before the year is out.
Im sorry but it has nothing to do with the Lore, Blood Money is just another name for Loot. aka Blood Coins.
Well I thought I was being considerate by trying to give it the lore angle. My bad. A lot of your quotes were things like 'its tainted, and most people dont want to touch it, only shady types will deal with it, etc.' which is lore and has nothing to do with gameplay.
Also the system is being tweaked on in Beta as said above, so whether it will receive acolade or distaste is mute, because the game isn't even out yet, so its kinda hard to form an opinion on how it will fair.
Ok? If I didn't know better, you just argued to remove all forums for every game in beta, ever.
The thing is with this 'loot' which is seperate from normal coinage. It therefore has additional meaning.
And honor points is seperate from normal coinage. It therefore has additional meaning?
Because someone has more blood money than someone with little has no meaning really,
No meaning? You mean other than than the ability to learn enhanced pvp abilities to be more effective in pvp?
I listed some things you can do with your blood money. You dont gain levels in it, it doesn't have any consequence in combat whatsoever.
I'm not sure you comprehend. I don't care if blood money BY ITSELF has consequences in combat. But if you can use it to be better in combat, by either buying skills, or equipment like WoW, than its functionally just like honor points.
It gives you the ability to seek out PvP trainers "Blood Money will be required by the trainers who will train you in your PvP related feats, and there will be merchants that will sell things for Blood Money as Blood Money needs to be useful, and these things sold will be pvp related, but its not a magic vendor with some faction requirements and just save up X amount of Blood Money to buy an omg leet sword of uber pk."
Im just wondering if you actually read the quotes I put up..
Yes, read them twice to be sure I didn't miss some hidden differences. I'm sorry I didn't find any. I'm just being honest here man. No reason to get insulting.
The only way it will make you stronger is if you use it to train certain feats, learn them and just be the better skilled fighter in combat. So if player A has more Blood Money than player B it won't make any difference in a fight especially the way the system is set out.
I don't see how you came to the conclusion in your 2nd sentence based on your 1st. If people have the chance to spend their blood money to 1) make their character stronger in combat or 2) not make their character stronger in combat.... which do you think they will pick? Someone who has earned lots of blood money will have more combat feats, and will be stronger than someone who hasn't. So instead of WoW's equipment, you now have AoC's feats. Functionally, the same end result.
You hypothetically, asked two questions and answered them yourself. You loot people for blood money to do that you have to kill someone (because its a unique loot) - having more than someone else wont make you a better fighter. And farming the stuff is pointless.
I've already been over this several times already.... I couldn't possibly say it again.
I believe it also costs blood coin to enter the border kingdom (although I may be mistaken)
Athelon said that in the interview I listened to earlier, so you are not mistaken. Assuming of course they havent changed that.
Point is there are like 3 devs saying its nothing like WoW's honor system, advancements for gear is done differently, advancements for PvP are done via only PvP levels. Blood Coins (pvp loot) could be 'tainted' in some fashion that has not been explained fully yet.
Well, I cannot say one way or another what the devs envision the system to be like on their end. I can only respond strictly based on the information they themselves have provided. That information, in my opinion, does not show any real functional differences between the two systems. If there is some key factor they have not yet shared with us that would differentiate the two and make all the difference, I await it eagerly
I think we have covered about all the ground we can on this topic with the currently available information, so I will leave it at that.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence. Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
So what it sounds like to me in short is; Blood Money is basically pvp experience, you gain blood money (pvp xp) by killing, but you get to choose how you progress in your pvp career by allocating blood money. So, it's simply the same progression everyone goes through, but some might progress faster in one facet, like spending it on feats, where someone els might spend it on gear or resources to up their or their guilds arsenal or access to the stomping grounds to gather more blood money.
So, I might be effective in different ways then someone els for a time, but overall, I'm still adding to the strength of my guild or alliance.
Never give up and never surrender!
AmazingAveryAge of Conan AdvocateMemberUncommonPosts: 7,188
Bloodmoney is money that can be controlled separately from the normal cash in the game, this might be used in some items, it might be for consumables, training pvp feats, building siege equipment, crafting pvp items, its very flexible. It is not however a save x honor points to buy y piece of pvp gear to get your set bonus, etc.
__________________
Athelan-NPC/Monster Designer, Behavioral Control Center/Combat Guru, Age of Conan
Grunties sorry if you thought I was insulting, didn't mean to come across like that if you thought so, to me the set of quotes about the blood money concept set aside the comparison to WoW's honor system, with more 'no's' than 'yes's'. Imo it sounds like a 90 / 10 similarity thats all.
I would love a Blood Coin update, but there's Crafting, and Siege stuff to come first. Blood Coin update will probably come when they decide how the looting option will work overall for different rulesets.
The point of conflict is to increase the value of your faction or reduce the value of faction of you enemy. Blood money seems just like another way to make players farmable mobs (like honorpoints). Without full or partial loot, you will just have an endless sequel of zerg -> kill'n die -> spawn.
It feels fake, pointless and boring
--- And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there. John Smedley, SOE
Heres some quotes directly from Athelan, taken from ByMitra.com;
"Bloodmoney is money that can be controlled separately from the normal cash in the game, this might be used in some items, it might be for consumables, training pvp feats, building siege equipment, crafting pvp items, its very flexible. It is not however a save x honor points to buy y piece of pvp gear to get your set bonus, etc."
"Blood money is not meant to be WoW honor, it not a currency in the form of being what you save up to buy a shiny new sword, thats not the point, its blood money because it comes from foes and most people dont want to touch it. Hence only the shady types will accept it, like a fence or something.Blood money is not advancement, its loot from the headless corpse of your enemy sprawled in the weeds."
"1) It's nothing like WoW honor and ranking system, as stated blood money is PvP currency looted from fallen foes. This currency is used for things PvP related such as training your PvP specific skills, making shady deals with blackmarket merchants and the like"
Beyond that, PvP gear will mostly be player crafted. Because player crafted gear will be highly customizable, and because PvP and PvE stats will be separate. So that uber drop you get in a dungeon may in fact be craptastic for PvP compared to the crafted and socketed uber item.
So, the two systems have their similarities, but they work quite differently.
Heres some quotes directly from Athelan, taken from ByMitra.com; "Bloodmoney is money that can be controlled separately from the normal cash in the game, this might be used in some items, it might be for consumables, training pvp feats, building siege equipment, crafting pvp items, its very flexible. It is not however a save x honor points to buy y piece of pvp gear to get your set bonus, etc." ****snip***** So, the two systems have their similarities, but they work quite differently.
Well, the motivation is the same. The only reasons to enter PvP is;
A). It is fun - at least the first 30 kills
. You get factionpoints or blood money to spent on somesthing you want
You cannot hurt your enemy, not really because you can kill him 30 times and he will come back at you at the same strength. Thus you have taken away the only realistic reason to enter a conflict, to win or defend resources, territories and values outside a gameforced timeframe.
--- And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there. John Smedley, SOE
Seems to me your just being negative for the sake of negativity. If you kill your enemy 30 times, he's just gonna have a lot less blood money then you. But of course he's gonna come back at the same strength, because, on the regular servers at least, there is no item looting. How exactly is this different then any other modern MMOG?
I'll personally be entering the PvP zone in AoC to help my guild win a Battle Keep or Tower, or both, maybe even some resource nodes. I'll at least hire myself out as a mercenary so I can participate in such battles. IMHO theres a lot at stake in AoC's PvP. You could definitely hurt your enemy. They could spend a month building their guild's keep, adding to it, increasing it's strengths, to loose it on the battlefield in a few hours time to you and your guild. That'll hurt them indeed.
This adds consequences to AoC's high-end PvP. Much more so then the HK grind and 'take over a few static locations every 2 minutes' of WoW.
sounds good to me, FFA will make people happy who are into that stuff i personally will be playing on a normal server, PVP when I want, and not PVP when i dont want to
my only question is:
will you gain experience towards leveling from PvP?
without it, open FFA PvP in a level based game is silly.
If you can/do get XP from PvP on FFA servers... might be a nice purchase for my 360 (don't think my PC could handle the graphics well enough for PvP in this game)
There are seperate PvP levels.
So... like your skills and abilities you use in PvP (your "power" in PvP) are ONLY effected by your PvP level?
As in PvE and PvP are completely seperate?
As in my PvE level has no effect on my PvP ability?
Comments
Cities as safe zones work for me when crafting
"RP guidelines that will be composed by Customer Service" So, what is going to be more important to them... Enforcing RP rules or the player's $15 a month? My money says there will be no RP ruleset enforcement. Show me a AAA game that enforces RP rule sets. I have yet to see one.
You can have to go to MUDs and such too see true RP rule set enforcement.
Also, after reading what Athelan said about looting and such, I have that feeling that crafting is going to be cancelled, very limited or even added to the game well after launch as it is obviously never mentioned as "core" to the game as Athelan defines it.
We are just going to have to wait and see what specific rules there will be and how enforcement will be honoured. For starters our guild is signed up to a player created "Hyborian Accord" (most big guilds have like Snowhawk for eg.) and we specifically have joined an alliance forming with 3 other guilds pre game. Atleast on our RP server we have helped the population by being more pro RP. But I would be very interested to see how the rules play out too.
Crafting - from couple weeks back.
vbmenu_register("postmenu_1014930", true);
Funcom
We'll reveal all the details about it in due time.
Cities as safe zones work for me when crafting
"RP guidelines that will be composed by Customer Service" So, what is going to be more important to them... Enforcing RP rules or the player's $15 a month? My money says there will be no RP ruleset enforcement. Show me a AAA game that enforces RP rule sets. I have yet to see one.
You can have to go to MUDs and such too see true RP rule set enforcement.
Also, after reading what Athelan said about looting and such, I have that feeling that crafting is going to be cancelled, very limited or even added to the game well after launch as it is obviously never mentioned as "core" to the game as Athelan defines it.
DAOC used to enforce RP rules sets...at least as far as player names and other minor infractions. But no, they never came down hard on anyone too often as they didn't have the manpower to handle such complaints."True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Thank you, Avery. I appreciate the post on the latest dev posting about crafting. That statement is a far cry from last years "crafting is the core of the game" as far as gear goes stance. As with all things, AoC can and will change during development. I guess you'll have to tell me how crafting is after launch.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
I think its important to remember that alot of focus is on the Sieging, and thus with the way things are all the buildings are destructable. And will need repairing!
Same goes for the structures in your PvE city.
Also because of the seperate PvP levels, I believe there is seperate gear and feats to be trained in that area. One would assume that weapon/armor crafting for PvP might be a little bit different too. So we have all these different area's of focus for the crafter and again seperate branch lines for specifics but all inclusive of needing materials just like in any mmorpg.
Remember Crafting is not experience based, the next tiers are gained through quests attributed to the specific skill your inclined to follow, and upon completion you will have new things to make. As a crafter only you can master 3 out of the 5 types available. Only high end stuff can be made in guild cities.
Raw materials are still needed, but it doesn't make it seem like a daily job.
I have to add in though with seperate PvP levels, at least when a PvP skill gets nerfed it wont affect your PvE experience - and vice versa :P
Cities as safe zones work for me when crafting
"RP guidelines that will be composed by Customer Service" So, what is going to be more important to them... Enforcing RP rules or the player's $15 a month? My money says there will be no RP ruleset enforcement. Show me a AAA game that enforces RP rule sets. I have yet to see one.
You can have to go to MUDs and such too see true RP rule set enforcement.
Also, after reading what Athelan said about looting and such, I have that feeling that crafting is going to be cancelled, very limited or even added to the game well after launch as it is obviously never mentioned as "core" to the game as Athelan defines it.
DAOC used to enforce RP rules sets...at least as far as player names and other minor infractions. But no, they never came down hard on anyone too often as they didn't have the manpower to handle such complaints.Thats how I see it going down too Kyleran.
Cheers to the OP for keeping us posted.
Now to the topic. This sounds like great news indeed, I have to agree with the developer, if the core game doesn't kick butt, the game will flop, period. A healthy dev attitude for sure.
I am confused. Can you attack in cities or not on a so called FFA server ?
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And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.
John Smedley, SOE
I see you've finally seen the light Xris and moved away from outdated vaporware land.
will you gain experience towards leveling from PvP?
without it, open FFA PvP in a level based game is silly.
If you can/do get XP from PvP on FFA servers... might be a nice purchase for my 360 (don't think my PC could handle the graphics well enough for PvP in this game)
will you gain experience towards leveling from PvP?
without it, open FFA PvP in a level based game is silly.
If you can/do get XP from PvP on FFA servers... might be a nice purchase for my 360 (don't think my PC could handle the graphics well enough for PvP in this game)
There are seperate PvP levels.
Blood Money does NOT equal Honor in WoW. Athelan, the dev who designed the system, has stated it was designed differently with intention.
Listen to this interview right here, Athelan himself goes into depth on how and why Blood Money != Honor;
http://www.uberguilds.org/radio/grenade/interview102807
Well, for all those times I died in Vanguard crafting, calling safe cities FFA...well insulting
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And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.
John Smedley, SOE
Blood Money does NOT equal Honor in WoW. Athelan, the dev who designed the system, has stated it was designed differently with intention.
Listen to this interview right here, Athelan himself goes into depth on how and why Blood Money != Honor;
http://www.uberguilds.org/radio/grenade/interview102807
Yep YOU CAN'T buy gear with blood money.
I could have sworn that Athelon says in the interview that blood money can be used to access unique items, vendors, and skills. I must be pretty slow tonight because I'm still trying to figure out the key differences between blood money and honor (other than that blood money can be taken away if you are killed). If WoW's honor is used to buy gear to make it easier to kill in pvp, and AoC's blood money is used to buy skills/items to make it easier to kill in pvp, is there a real difference between the two besides semantics?
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence.
Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
Here are some quotes over the last year about Blood Money
"Blood Money is Loot
You can think of blood money as being very similar to looting normal money off of people except with the heightened risk of it being "tainted" from the way you aquired it."
"Blood Coins is looting. PvP levels are advancement"
"Blood Money is looting for PvP in a controllable method to prevent issues of muling etc because it can be restricted in ways normal money cannot.
You do not buy armor/weapons with blood money. I believe I said this in the very first thread about it after the announcement. Just because we said you could get items, does not mean it is the same as WoW."
"Blood Money will be required by the trainers who will train you in your PvP related feats, and there will be merchants that will sell things for Blood Money as Blood Money needs to be useful, and these things sold will be pvp related, but its not a magic vendor with some faction requirements and just save up X amount of Blood Money to buy an omg leet sword of uber pk.
Your advancement is in your Pvp Levels and choice of feats, Blood Money is again, looting, it is money from the fallen foes hewn before your blade."
"Come on guys lets not do the "theorycraft assumption and complain about what we assume" game.
Blood money is not advancement, how do I know? hehe because I have been working on the PvP levels and abilities which are advancement. Again, apparently some people have not heard me say "This is not WoW"
"If I kill you and take your wallet, I get money, yay, but does that make it "advancement" perhaps by a literal definition anything that increases anything on your character in any way would be advancement, but I've never considered currency the same way I would consider say levels.
Distribution of the Blood Money and the "Kill" are certainly not final, thats why I said I would imagine it would use such a system. It will be fleshed out and balanced during the continued phases of Beta but moaning about what doesn't exist now certainly won't change things or make the game better."
"Farming blood money would not serve much purpose. It would be like each of giving the other one a dollar and then giving it back.
The goal of blood money is what you spoke about here:
"My whole take on the blood money thing is that, yes it's cool we can loot players, and steal their blood money. It adds to the spice of PVP."
"It is not something for the players to grind in order to get their reward"
"Blood money will work in groups as well
Priests can kill people
Blood money is not meant to be WoW honor, it not a currency in the form of being what you save up to buy a shiny new sword, thats not the point, its blood money because it comes from foes and most people dont want to touch it. Hence only the shady types will accept it, like a fence or something.
Blood money is not advancement, its loot from the headless corpse of your enemy sprawled in the weeds.
Yes special PvP trainers could very well be found out in dangerous areas."
More Info here clicky
Hope this helps alleviate the fact it cannot be talked about in a comparison to WoW's Honor System, the two things are different by design.
Weeelllll... though I certainly appreciate the additional quotes it seems to me like it is more lore differences than functional differences. I'm not arguing that they have some sort of backstory to how one gets blood money, whereas WoW doesn't. And they also have the ability to lose blood money you've accumulated, while WoW doesn't.
But... I'm looking at it from the pure gameplay perspective, how does one actually get blood money and how does someone without blood money fare in pvp against someone who has earned lots of blood money. If the answer to the first is 'kill enemies' and the answer to the second is 'they are stronger in pvp', than ultimately I feel both systems have the same overall gameplay effect. Even more so if the player is the type to not care much for the lore behind it.
So, thank you again for the links. Though having read them I cannot say that I've seen evidence to suggest the two are, at the core, that different at all. A slightly modified version perhaps. But I would imagine that all of the same complaints about WoW's honor system will be leveled against AoC's blood money, in time.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence.
Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
Im sorry but it has nothing to do with the Lore, Blood Money is just another name for Loot. aka Blood Coins.
Also the system is being tweaked on in Beta as said above, so whether it will receive acolade or distaste is mute, because the game isn't even out yet, so its kinda hard to form an opinion on how it will fair.
The thing is with this 'loot' which is seperate from normal coinage. It therefore has additional meaning. Because someone has more blood money than someone with little has no meaning really, I listed some things you can do with your blood money. You dont gain levels in it, it doesn't have any consequence in combat whatsoever. It gives you the ability to seek out PvP trainers "Blood Money will be required by the trainers who will train you in your PvP related feats, and there will be merchants that will sell things for Blood Money as Blood Money needs to be useful, and these things sold will be pvp related, but its not a magic vendor with some faction requirements and just save up X amount of Blood Money to buy an omg leet sword of uber pk."
Im just wondering if you actually read the quotes I put up..
The only way it will make you stronger is if you use it to train certain feats, learn them and just be the better skilled fighter in combat. So if player A has more Blood Money than player B it won't make any difference in a fight especially the way the system is set out.
You hypothetically, asked two questions and answered them yourself. You loot people for blood money to do that you have to kill someone (because its a unique loot) - having more than someone else wont make you a better fighter. And farming the stuff is pointless.
I believe it also costs blood coin to enter the border kingdom (although I may be mistaken)
Point is there are like 3 devs saying its nothing like WoW's honor system, advancements for gear is done differently, advancements for PvP are done via only PvP levels. Blood Coins (pvp loot) could be 'tainted' in some fashion that has not been explained fully yet.
*EDIT further to that the system and how it will play out on a PvP type server where its OPEN pvp everywhere is still undetirmined. There has always been talk of a form of looting one way or another for a long time. I would expect / hope for an update before the year is out.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence.
Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
So what it sounds like to me in short is; Blood Money is basically pvp experience, you gain blood money (pvp xp) by killing, but you get to choose how you progress in your pvp career by allocating blood money. So, it's simply the same progression everyone goes through, but some might progress faster in one facet, like spending it on feats, where someone els might spend it on gear or resources to up their or their guilds arsenal or access to the stomping grounds to gather more blood money.
So, I might be effective in different ways then someone els for a time, but overall, I'm still adding to the strength of my guild or alliance.
Never give up and never surrender!
here's another recent quote:
Grunties sorry if you thought I was insulting, didn't mean to come across like that if you thought so, to me the set of quotes about the blood money concept set aside the comparison to WoW's honor system, with more 'no's' than 'yes's'. Imo it sounds like a 90 / 10 similarity thats all.
I would love a Blood Coin update, but there's Crafting, and Siege stuff to come first. Blood Coin update will probably come when they decide how the looting option will work overall for different rulesets.
The point of conflict is to increase the value of your faction or reduce the value of faction of you enemy. Blood money seems just like another way to make players farmable mobs (like honorpoints). Without full or partial loot, you will just have an endless sequel of zerg -> kill'n die -> spawn.
It feels fake, pointless and boring
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And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.
John Smedley, SOE
Heres some quotes directly from Athelan, taken from ByMitra.com;
"Bloodmoney is money that can be controlled separately from the normal cash in the game, this might be used in some items, it might be for consumables, training pvp feats, building siege equipment, crafting pvp items, its very flexible. It is not however a save x honor points to buy y piece of pvp gear to get your set bonus, etc."
"Blood money is not meant to be WoW honor, it not a currency in the form of being what you save up to buy a shiny new sword, thats not the point, its blood money because it comes from foes and most people dont want to touch it. Hence only the shady types will accept it, like a fence or something.Blood money is not advancement, its loot from the headless corpse of your enemy sprawled in the weeds."
"1) It's nothing like WoW honor and ranking system, as stated blood money is PvP currency looted from fallen foes. This currency is used for things PvP related such as training your PvP specific skills, making shady deals with blackmarket merchants and the like"
Beyond that, PvP gear will mostly be player crafted. Because player crafted gear will be highly customizable, and because PvP and PvE stats will be separate. So that uber drop you get in a dungeon may in fact be craptastic for PvP compared to the crafted and socketed uber item.
So, the two systems have their similarities, but they work quite differently.
A). It is fun - at least the first 30 kills
You cannot hurt your enemy, not really because you can kill him 30 times and he will come back at you at the same strength. Thus you have taken away the only realistic reason to enter a conflict, to win or defend resources, territories and values outside a gameforced timeframe.
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And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.
John Smedley, SOE
Seems to me your just being negative for the sake of negativity. If you kill your enemy 30 times, he's just gonna have a lot less blood money then you.
But of course he's gonna come back at the same strength, because, on the regular servers at least, there is no item looting. How exactly is this different then any other modern MMOG?
I'll personally be entering the PvP zone in AoC to help my guild win a Battle Keep or Tower, or both, maybe even some resource nodes. I'll at least hire myself out as a mercenary so I can participate in such battles. IMHO theres a lot at stake in AoC's PvP. You could definitely hurt your enemy. They could spend a month building their guild's keep, adding to it, increasing it's strengths, to loose it on the battlefield in a few hours time to you and your guild. That'll hurt them indeed.
This adds consequences to AoC's high-end PvP. Much more so then the HK grind and 'take over a few static locations every 2 minutes' of WoW.
will you gain experience towards leveling from PvP?
without it, open FFA PvP in a level based game is silly.
If you can/do get XP from PvP on FFA servers... might be a nice purchase for my 360 (don't think my PC could handle the graphics well enough for PvP in this game)
There are seperate PvP levels.
So... like your skills and abilities you use in PvP (your "power" in PvP) are ONLY effected by your PvP level?
As in PvE and PvP are completely seperate?
As in my PvE level has no effect on my PvP ability?