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Why most new MMOs suck

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  • Tutu2Tutu2 Member UncommonPosts: 572

    I'm still waiting for a good fantasy MMO without god damn raiding in it. No one raids for fun...people do it for the loot.... I want an end-game that's well and truly fun not a repetitive hamster wheel for more purple epics. It's just a lazy way to keep players occupied with minimal effort. More dynamic world pvp with player made cities and battles and sieges please. Put the fun back into MMOs, no more gameplay revolving around crappy faction grinding all day.

  • McGruggMcGrugg Member Posts: 60

    There are quite a lot of things I want, but the main thing for me is, give me the ability to play my character how i friggin' want to play him.  If I want to be a knight/soldier/ etc., fine, i'll go fight a bunch of mobs.  On the other hand, If I want to be an armor crafter/weapon crafter, etc. Why should I be forced to run around hitting mobs constantly?  If all I want to do is craft items, be a wandering drunken bard, etc., why should I be forced into combat roles for my character to progress? It just doesn't make sense.

  • Lizard_SFLizard_SF Member Posts: 348

    Originally posted by vajuras


     


     

    anyone that says 'flavor of the month' does not occur in Class based MMOs hasnt been playing them long. In City of heroes we saw FOTM builds popup left & right (rad/psi defender, ice/rad corrupter, EM/elec brutes, EM/regen stalkers, fire/rad trollers, etc, etc, etc). In WoW #1 build on all the census was Night Elf Hunters til that combo got nerfed

     

    I agree, it's just as endemic in class based games, but a bit less so, if only because there's fewer classes than skills, and thus, fewer combinations to debug or exploit. Either way, both class and skill based systems are not 'original' or 'different', and claiming some minor variant on them is, is folly.

    Here's the thing that constantly pisses me off about these types of discussions -- the people designing these games a)love them, and, b)do it for a living, day in and out. Most have been playing them for decades. (I remember Isles of Kesmai, not to mention 'white box' D&D) The chances that Joe Forum Poster is going to have a Brilliantly Original Idea that hasn't been thought of and rejected countless times before is pretty damn slim, yet these forums are full of people who think they have managed to come up with the One True Gaming Concept which, amazingly, the hundreds of professional game designers with far more experience than them never did. Here's some wisdom for your use: If your way cool idea has never been used in a sucessful game, odds are, there's a lot of Very Good Reasons for that, so step back and think about everything that's wrong with it for a bit.

  • IndoIndo Member Posts: 252

    As soon as developers stop trying to mimic WoW's success and simply go back to making games that are just plain fun, we'll have better MMO's - plain and simple. IMO, most new MMO's suck because they are simply trying too hard. Just make a damn fun game... 

  • ArndurArndur Member Posts: 2,202
    Originally posted by Lizard_SF


     


     

     

    Here's the thing that constantly pisses me off about these types of discussions -- the people designing these games a)love them, and, b)do it for a living, day in and out. Most have been playing them for decades. (I remember Isles of Kesmai, not to mention 'white box' D&D) The chances that Joe Forum Poster is going to have a Brilliantly Original Idea that hasn't been thought of and rejected countless times before is pretty damn slim, yet these forums are full of people who think they have managed to come up with the One True Gaming Concept which, amazingly, the hundreds of professional game designers with far more experience than them never did. Here's some wisdom for your use: If your way cool idea has never been used in a sucessful game, odds are, there's a lot of Very Good Reasons for that, so step back and think about everything that's wrong with it for a bit.



    I read that and just had to smile. Was at the OU vs UT game this year guy behind me kept talking bout how easy this and that were and the coaches shouldnt have done that i wouldve done this. i almost turned around and said then why arent you coaching the team or playing QB. bet he never played college ball. my point is i hate people who talk like they know everything about a subject but really dont have any experince in that aera.

    Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.

    If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day.
    And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms

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  • EEL85EEL85 Member UncommonPosts: 34

    Simply put, people fell in love with the original MMORPG's like EQ, UO, SWG or even WoW. This entire industry is so young and there were very few experts on mmorpgs when they first made an appearance. People were more amazed in the fact that they could simply play online with other people. Anyways, every new online game is benchmarked against these older games, which people are so attached to. The original games couldn't be compared to anything else, and if you wanted to play online, you played them. I believe that the new games don't suck at all but instead are much more scrutinized. This phenomenon is extremely interesting to me and I am really wondering what game will replace WoW or other popular online games. In theory, this new game will have to be extremely well polished and offer something totally new. However, I feel that this new super game will also have to implement many common game elements that are already in use. Many people like their game features but simply get tired of the same content. The ultimate online game will be one where the newness factor never goes away. A mmorpg with no end, which is why I really want to see more sandbox type of games being released. A lot of people only focus on the negatives of new games and overlook all the positives the game has to offer.

  • wiepmewiepme Member Posts: 1

    I don't think to level up with doing quests is a bad thing.  Most of the games will give the quests with a well developed story, each time you accept a request, you get more info of the story, also you can imagine yourself how the story will go on, just like when you watching a detective film.

  • thorwoodthorwood Member Posts: 485

    I like quests as they give you a break from grinding.  Just doing one thing all the time is boring.

    I dislike linear quests as you often cannot get a group to do the tasks in order.  How many times have you helped someone with part 8 of a quest when you are stuck on part 4 and get no credit for helping with part 8?

    EQ epic quests were a terrible grind.  They were linear; you had to do each part in order.  The epic raid encounters, if successfull, only benefited 1 person.  You were back doing the same encounter again and again for the others that needed it.  Some epic mobs only spawned on a server once a week, so you were lucky if it was even up when your guild scheduled the encounter.  Your inventory was cluttered with multiple quest drops as it took weeks to complete the whole chain. Of course, if you like endless raid grinding, the EQ epic quests are perfect.

    Until someone comes up with some form of progression besides killing mobs for XP or doing quests for XP, I think developers need to cater for both preferences.

    Eve-online training progression is based on training skills in real time.   The longer you pay your subscription the better developed your toon.  With so many Mmorgs to chose from these days, many people do not stay with a Mmorg long enough to progress very far. After 6 months you finished training some basic skills.  Lately I play a Mmorg for 6 months.

    Some games have skills that advance through use.   Many of these are just an alternate form of grinding.  For example, endless sword thrusts to improve your piercing skill.  In EQ I can remember casting on a dead rat for several hours to raise my nuking skill to a point where I could reliably hit mobs my level.  

    Maybe toons could advance for what they contribute to game world.  Advancements for things like:

     * non-linear quests/misisons including:

             - repeatable  quests/missions

              - character progression

              - storyline progression

              - contribution to realm projects (fortress  building; build, finance and supply an army)

    * defending the realm 

     * crafting

     * exploring

     * gathering resources

     * mercantile advances

     * leadership bonuses/advances from leading groups or guilds

     * expansion of territory/towns/production/facilities/defenses

     * diplomacy

     * marketing

     * group, solo and guild content

     * PvE and PvP

    I have also noticed that many of the PvP Mmorgs that have PvE have limited the PvE progression to maintain balance in PvP.  It would add content for PvE if these artificial limits were lifted from PvE.   You could do that by removing or limiting what carries over to PvP.  After all, if you join the army you are issued with standard army uniform and equipment.  You might be the world's greatest detective, but only some of those skills will help in the army.  Similary, a very skilled soldier's skill set is not that relevant to being a farmer.

    The trick would be to create an engaging world with balanced gameplay that would allow indviduals to progress doing what they want to do.

  • YeeboYeebo Member Posts: 1,359

     

    Originally posted by Lizard_SF


     
    Here's the thing that constantly pisses me off about these types of discussions -- the people designing these games a)love them, and, b)do it for a living, day in and out. Most have been playing them for decades. (I remember Isles of Kesmai, not to mention 'white box' D&D) The chances that Joe Forum Poster is going to have a Brilliantly Original Idea that hasn't been thought of and rejected countless times before is pretty damn slim, yet these forums are full of people who think they have managed to come up with the One True Gaming Concept which, amazingly, the hundreds of professional game designers with far more experience than them never did. Here's some wisdom for your use: If your way cool idea has never been used in a sucessful game, odds are, there's a lot of Very Good Reasons for that, so step back and think about everything that's wrong with it for a bit.

    It's funny, becuase when you boil down most of those sorts of posts they usually consist of platers bitching that either A. some playstyle that designers realized was crap as far as most consumers are concerned got ditched 4 years ago or B. game designers aren't taking huge risks with the core design of their multi-million dollar products.

    Do any of these sound familiar...

    Modern games don't have open non-consensual full loot PvP like pre-Trammel UO.  All modern game designers are cowards that cater only to carebears.

    Modern quest based MMOs suck.  Grinding should be the only way to level.  Modern MMOs cater to witless fools and six year olds.  Game designers are trying to make McDonalds, the MMO.

    Being able to solo sucks.  They call them massive Multiplayer games for a reason.  If you want to play a solo game, play  offline.  Learn to group.  Soloing kills communities.  Game designers should see that,  it's so obvious.

    Modern MMOs all have the same UI.  I want to see a game that get's creative with it's UI.  Game designers follow each other blindly.

    Where is the innovation in MMOs?  All MMOs are the "same me" too BS.  The genre is utterly stagnant.  I could come up with a way better game than all the crap that's being put out.

    The list goes on, and these same stupid topics come up over and over again in nearly every MMO forum I've ever followed.  

    Yay humans.

     

    I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.

  • guikedguiked Member Posts: 1

    I like do quests for each time when I finished the quests I accepted , my heart was full of satisfaction.

  • bigtime102bigtime102 Member UncommonPosts: 174

    Personally Id rather grind monsters than quests, as long as the monters get progressivley challenging. Fighting bigger badder monsters and figuring out how to kill them is a lot more satifying than completing a run around quest for some soulless AI bot that might as well be a rock. But some of you like rocks as friends so who am I to judge? Why not make 10000 differnt kind of monsters instead of quests? That would be cooler.

    Im glad I saw that AOC video on here where the devs said theyll making grinding monsters give little to no exp and quest will make up the bulk of the exp. I wont be playing that game.

    I dont see how running through a contrived story should give you any exp at all, Maybe item rewards and such but exp is used to level, and leveling makes you more powerful, so how does the guy that runs around delivering stuff get as powerfull than someone who earned their EXP through fighting?

  • lusislusis Member UncommonPosts: 27

    The grind is a reason why I'm not paying to play any MMO's right now.

    I've mentioned this in a few threads, but I'll say it again here: what MMO developers NEED to concentrate on is not a storyline, but creating a vast, realistic, easily modifiable world with good physics and customizable character creation and development and let the players create their own storyline.

    In my mind, the perfect MMO could start out with multiple identical servers with a basic starting point in the story, and within a year or two each would have essentially different environments and stories because the players developed it themselves. Essentailly, MMOs need to take a cue from Wikipedia.

    Of course, I'm not an engineer, and do not know how conceivable this is, but I think it should be the goal.

    EDIT: I'm also writing my own concept for such a game.

     

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  • MChavezMChavez Member Posts: 142

    Originally posted by lusis


    The grind is a reason why I'm not paying to play any MMO's right now.
    I've mentioned this in a few threads, but I'll say it again here: what MMO developers NEED to concentrate on is not a storyline, but creating a vast, realistic, easily modifiable world with good physics and customizable character creation and development and let the players create their own storyline.
    In my mind, the perfect MMO would start out with  3  identical servers, and within a year ot two have essentially 3 different environments because the players developed it themselves. Essentailly, MMOs need to take a cue from Wikipedia.
    Of course, I'm not an engineer, and do not know how conceivable this is , but I think it should be the goal.

    Yes, these are my thoughts exactly. We need something similar to Second Life in an MMORPG. Developers need to make tools that will allow the player base to create their own worlds (not exactly as haphazardly or poorly done like SL). As much as I love questing and sometimes grinding, there needs to be more to these games then that. They need to mature into true virtual worlds albeit with restrictions based on the kind of setting the game is in.

    I truly believe that we need ways of making our own weapons, armor, clothing, spells, quests, etc. Creating all the content for us is no longer viable. Players simply rush through the content too fast and then waste time complaining about how there's nothing to do. Blizzard lucked out with WoW but I don't think people (at least in those numbers) will fall for the old grind for gear routine again. Something simply has to evolve. If MMORPGs coming out after WAR and AoC don't evolve, I'll be leaving this genre for good.

    Currently playing: No MMOs. They all suck.

  • MChavezMChavez Member Posts: 142
    Originally posted by bigtime102


    Personally Id rather grind monsters than quests, as long as the monters get progressivley challenging. Fighting bigger badder monsters and figuring out how to kill them is a lot more satifying than completing a run around quest for some soulless AI bot that might as well be a rock. But some of you like rocks as friends so who am I to judge? Why not make 10000 differnt kind of monsters instead of quests? That would be cooler.
    Im glad I saw that AOC video on here where the devs said theyll making grinding monsters give little to no exp and quest will make up the bulk of the exp. I wont be playing that game.
    I dont see how running through a contrived story should give you any exp at all, Maybe item rewards and such but exp is used to level, and leveling makes you more powerful, so how does the guy that runs around delivering stuff get as powerfull than someone who earned their EXP through fighting?

      I like questing and mindless mob killing. But for people who like either one or the other, a smart developer should reward both types of players. Simple as that.

    Currently playing: No MMOs. They all suck.

  • lusislusis Member UncommonPosts: 27

    Originally posted by MChavez


     
    Originally posted by lusis


    The grind is a reason why I'm not paying to play any MMO's right now.
    I've mentioned this in a few threads, but I'll say it again here: what MMO developers NEED to concentrate on is not a storyline, but creating a vast, realistic, easily modifiable world with good physics and customizable character creation and development and let the players create their own storyline.
    In my mind, the perfect MMO would start out with  3  identical servers, and within a year ot two have essentially 3 different environments because the players developed it themselves. Essentailly, MMOs need to take a cue from Wikipedia.
    Of course, I'm not an engineer, and do not know how conceivable this is , but I think it should be the goal.

     

    Yes, these are my thoughts exactly. We need something similar to Second Life in an MMORPG. Developers need to make tools that will allow the player base to create their own worlds (not exactly as haphazardly or poorly done like SL). As much as I love questing and sometimes grinding, there needs to be more to these games then that. They need to mature into true virtual worlds albeit with restrictions based on the kind of setting the game is in.

    I truly believe that we need ways of making our own weapons, armor, clothing, spells, quests, etc. Creating all the content for us is no longer viable. Players simply rush through the content too fast and then waste time complaining about how there's nothing to do. Blizzard lucked out with WoW but I don't think people (at least in those numbers) will fall for the old grind for gear routine again. Something simply has to evolve. If MMORPGs coming out after WAR and AoC don't evolve, I'll be leaving this genre for good.

    Personally, I'd love to see an end to levels in the traditional sense. I love the Oblivion type of play where the player's skill (with a bow for example) is what really matters, not some numbers generated by the game.

    I'd also like to see a more PvP type of game, but the fact is that if your going to do a strictly PvP game, then you can't have, "I'm god-like because I'm level 50/60/70 and I run around smiting noobs", real-life ain't like that, and I think that toning that aspect of it down will greatly help players get immersed in a game.

    Also, to add on to what you said, it's uneconomic to expect developers to create content faster than players can play through it, and their is no shortage of players with the time and ability to create their own add-ons and content to games. Why not let the player do for the developers what they do for themselves for free? Add a toolset to the game. Isn't it easier for developers to verify content made by someone else rather than make their own from scratch?

     

    image

  • MChavezMChavez Member Posts: 142

    Originally posted by lusis


     
     
    Personally, I'd love to see an end to levels in the traditional sense. I love the Oblivion type of play where the player's skill (with a bow for example) is what really matters, not some numbers generated by the game.
    I'd also like to see a more PvP type of game, but the fact is that if your going to do a strictly PvP game, then you can't have, "I'm god-like because I'm level 50/60/70 and I run around smiting noobs", real-life ain't like that, and I think that toning that aspect of it down will greatly help players get immersed in a game.
    Also, to add on to what you said, it's uneconomic to expect developers to create content faster than players can play through it, and their is no shortage of players with the time and ability to create their own add-ons and content to games. Why not let the player do for the developers what they do for themselves for free? Add a toolset to the game. Isn't it easier for developers to verify content made by someone else rather than make their own from scratch?
     

    I never played Oblivion. One of these days...

    However, from what I know about skill based play, it definitely seems more preferable than level based play. I'd also like to see a removal of classes. Let players use skills to define who they are and what they do.

    As for PvP, I just don't understand why developers don't just make it world wide and let players set a flag as to whether or not they wish to participate. This way the nooblets are protected (if they wish to be) and everybody else has to protect themselves. No need for battlegrounds or separate PvP areas. It completely destroys what PvP is all about. It should be part of the conflict and strife of the game, not just a side show ala something to do with raiding gets boring.

    If anything, this should encourage more of a stable social structure as opposed to the constant LFG that PvE fosters. In PvE people only need each other when it is for a quest or a raid. But if PvP was something that had the potential of happening anywhere and anytime, you'd see people banding together more often and more consistently. 

    The only problem with player made content is who is to be the judge of taste and quality? If you've ever been in Second Life, the percentage of awful builders is much bigger than competent ones. In SL, there are literally virtual miles and miles of user created trash. So, if anything, perhaps all the user created content should be approved by the developer? One positive point about SL are the RPers who inhabit that world. They police themselves in terms of quality and content. There are standards and rules in place so that building structures or creating objects fits appropriately with the setting. As much as I want tools for user created content, I definitely don't want to be traveling through some beautiful forest only to come upon a little house that is really nothing more than a primitive cube with bright pink textures and a spinning ad on top of it telling me to go to some porn web site.

    Currently playing: No MMOs. They all suck.

  • lusislusis Member UncommonPosts: 27

     

    Originally posted by MChavez


     
     
    I never played Oblivion. One of these days...
    However, from what I know about skill based play, it definitely seems more preferable than level based play. I'd also like to see a removal of classes. Let players use skills to define who they are and what they do.
    As for PvP, I just don't understand why developers don't just make it world wide and let players set a flag as to whether or not they wish to participate. This way the nooblets are protected (if they wish to be) and everybody else has to protect themselves. No need for battlegrounds or separate PvP areas. It completely destroys what PvP is all about. It should be part of the conflict and strife of the game, not just a side show ala something to do with raiding gets boring.
    If anything, this should encourage more of a stable social structure as opposed to the constant LFG that PvE fosters. In PvE people only need each other when it is for a quest or a raid. But if PvP was something that had the potential of happening anywhere and anytime, you'd see people banding together more often and more consistently. 
    The only problem with player made content is who is to be the judge of taste and quality? If you've ever been in Second Life, the percentage of awful builders is much bigger than competent ones. In SL, there are literally virtual miles and miles of user created trash. So, if anything, perhaps all the user created content should be approved by the developer? One positive point about SL are the RPers who inhabit that world. They police themselves in terms of quality and content. There are standards and rules in place so that building structures or creating objects fits appropriately with the setting. As much as I want tools for user created content, I definitely don't want to be traveling through some beautiful forest only to come upon a little house that is really nothing more than a primitive cube with bright pink textures and a spinning ad on top of it telling me to go to some porn web site.

     

    About PvP: The disparity in ability between a level 1 toon an a maxed-level toon is what lets some players dominate others in PvP enviroments. IMO, however, it's ridiculous that one character can stomach a dozen arrow shots with only a fraction of heath loss while another dies almost instantly; a 'max-level' character should die just as easily from an arrow to the heart as a brand new one. I think this can cut down tremendously on PvP abuse.

    Also, I think that there can be enough incentives written into the game that rampant PKing can be policed by the players, especially when players can create and police their own areas, and can rule their own kingdoms. Hell, the concept of law and order were put into place in real life without it actually being written into the "code"  as it were (cue terms such as "spontaneous order" and the "invisible hand"). It can also stand to reason that the code could be written that keeps track of rampant PKers, and a system can be developed to spawn them together and away from areas with lawful players as it will (I have a more detailed idea on how to make this and fit a storyline, but I'm saving it for a project).

    As far as the creation content, I think the best bet is an in-game toolset that is reliable and lets you do things like crafting and making buildings and the such, there should also be another toolset so characters can build their own quests and missions. As far as major content, such as new areas and such, I agree that's another matter that would require developer approval.

     

     

     

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  • GinkeqGinkeq Member Posts: 615

    Originally posted by lusis 


    About PvP: The disparity in ability between a level 1 toon an a maxed-level toon is what lets some players dominate others in PvP enviroments. IMO, however, it's ridiculous that one character can stomach a dozen arrow shots with only a fraction of heath loss while another dies almost instantly; a 'max-level' character should die just as easily from an arrow to the heart as a brand new one. I think this can cut down tremendously on PvP abuse.
    Also, I think that there can be enough incentives written into the game that rampant PKing can be policed by the players, especially when players can create and police their own areas, and can rule their own kingdoms. Hell, the concept of law and order were put into place in real life without it actually being written into the "code"  as it were (cue terms such as "spontaneous order" and the "invisible hand"). It can also stand to reason that the code could be written that keeps track of rampant PKers, and a system can be developed to spawn them together and away from areas with lawful players as it will (I have a more detailed idea on how to make this and fit a storyline, but I'm saving it for a project).
    As far as the creation content, I think the best bet is an in-game toolset that is reliable and lets you do things like crafting and making buildings and the such, there should also be another toolset so characters can build their own quests and missions. As far as major content, such as new areas and such, I agree that's another matter that would require developer approval.
     

     

    So what are you suggesting? Level 1 newbies kill people who put the time in to level their characters up?  While I don't agree exactly with the leveling system, I think if one is used, that higher level players are more powerful than lower level ones.  A lvl 60 should be able to kill 1000 level 1's. 

    Similarly, a character who beats all the dungeons should be much more powerful than one who doesn't beat any.  PvE and PvP needs to be integrated to give players an incentive to actually do their PvE content.  Too many people miss the points of MMORPGs.  In WoW, people will sit in BGs all day. They don't realize it is the PvE content that is interesting in that game.  Instead, they do monotonous and boring BGs/Arenas all day long to get PvP gear. 

    I lean toward the MMORPG where gear and levels gives you a stronger advantage than in does in a game like WoW.  I didn't like the fact that my character, no matter how skilled I was, could not kill 3-4 people at the same time.  The last time people were that overpowered was in Everquest. 

    Maybe MMORPG developers should have more skill to PvP systems to allow skilled players to survive in PvP rather than creating the idiotic system present in WoW.  Their idea of a balanced PvP system is to have short battles where they can kill each other really fast.  Think about why that requires no thought.  It is all about burst dps, and it doesn't scale well at all when more than 2 people are involved.  What happens when 3 newbies target 1 person? You are screwed, no matter how good you are.  If they put some thought into that broken pvp system they would allow 1 person to beat 3, 5, etc.  Maybe not 10, but have skill play as more of a factor than mashing random buttons.



    Lol at your PKer idea.  Lets spawn all the PKers away from real areas because they PvP?  That makes no sense.  Did you ever play a real MMORPG with a real PvP system?  I played sullon zek, and griefing wasn't that rare, but usually other high level players would guard lower level ones if a griefer was in the area.  So players should deal with it, not some sort of "law" that makes absolutely no sense in an MMOPRG.  I can see if you are playing on some carebear server that doesn't want people to pvp, but then why enable pvp in the first place if you don't want people to do it? 

    When you take pvpers and spawn them away from real areas you are discouraging PvP, so your game would be "blue" if anything. 

    PvP servers should have no rules at all.  Anything should be fair game.

  • lusislusis Member UncommonPosts: 27

     

    Originally posted by Ginkeq


    So what are you suggesting? Level 1 newbies kill people who put the time in to level their characters up?  While I don't agree exactly with the leveling system, I think if one is used, that higher level players are more powerful than lower level ones.  A lvl 60 should be able to kill 1000 level 1's. 
    Similarly, a character who beats all the dungeons should be much more powerful than one who doesn't beat any.  PvE and PvP needs to be integrated to give players an incentive to actually do their PvE content.  Too many people miss the points of MMORPGs.  In WoW, people will sit in BGs all day. They don't realize it is the PvE content that is interesting in that game.  Instead, they do monotonous and boring BGs/Arenas all day long to get PvP gear. 
    I lean toward the MMORPG where gear and levels gives you a stronger advantage than in does in a game like WoW.  I didn't like the fact that my character, no matter how skilled I was, could not kill 3-4 people at the same time.  The last time people were that overpowered was in Everquest. 
    Maybe MMORPG developers should have more skill to PvP systems to allow skilled players to survive in PvP rather than creating the idiotic system present in WoW.  Their idea of a balanced PvP system is to have short battles where they can kill each other really fast.  Think about why that requires no thought.  It is all about burst dps, and it doesn't scale well at all when more than 2 people are involved.  What happens when 3 newbies target 1 person? You are screwed, no matter how good you are.  If they put some thought into that broken pvp system they would allow 1 person to beat 3, 5, etc.  Maybe not 10, but have skill play as more of a factor than mashing random buttons.


    Lol at your PKer idea.  Lets spawn all the PKers away from real areas because they PvP?  That makes no sense.  Did you ever play a real MMORPG with a real PvP system?  I played sullon zek, and griefing wasn't that rare, but usually other high level players would guard lower level ones if a griefer was in the area.  So players should deal with it, not some sort of "law" that makes absolutely no sense in an MMOPRG.  I can see if you are playing on some carebear server that doesn't want people to pvp, but then why enable pvp in the first place if you don't want people to do it? 
    When you take pvpers and spawn them away from real areas you are discouraging PvP, so your game would be "blue" if anything. 
    PvP servers should have no rules at all.  Anything should be fair game.

     

     

    Whoa there. Your  jumping to assumptions on what I'm suggesting, which is NOT rules to bar PvP at all. I totally think that a good MMO will use PvP in order to enhance the setting, rather than just make it a sideshow (EVE Online does a good job of this). What I was suggesting is something a little more specific to a certain setting that I'm messing around in my head (not that I work for any developer, just doing it for my own amusement at this point). The comment about "real areas" is moot, because as I've stated, the only areas are the ones the players create themselves with a games' toolset.

    The ability gap between levels is something that a developer needs to think outside the box for. I think classes and levels are constricting things, when what should matter most is the setting and experience. I'd rather have a skill-based system, where the player develops his character how he sees fit, rather than be limited to the abilities of a particular class, the best example that I've played is Oblivion, but there's plenty of room to do a little more radical departure from that.

    I'm not saying that all characters should be the same whether they are level 1 or level 60. I do think that players should have room to grow their characters, and I do think that an advanced character should have little trouble against a new one. However, a killing blow should be a killing blow, regardless of level, and players should outwit their opponents, rather than out-DPS them. Maybe it's just me, but the best multiplayer fun I have is on games that aren't MMO's, where people are on level playing ground and are forced to react and think quickly. Somewhere in the middle is where I think a great MMO is.

    One thing I think is greatly missing from the MMO's I've played is the idea that the environment is more than a pretty picture your character can run around in. Your toon can go from a scorching desert to a frozen wasteland in the same skimpy outfit without pause! I think developers are missing the boat on a great chance to let players be immersed. Cold kills, so does exposure. In RL, struggling against the environment is a bigger challenge in the wilderness than the critters you encounter. Yet again another area where a middle ground would go along way to making a great game.

    Anyways, just food for thought.

     

     

     

     

     

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  • WackoGunWackoGun Member UncommonPosts: 38

    When i read this i thought omfg you a tard? :D I mean the coolest thing in a MMO is doing quests having a mission to get a reward i mean i stopped playing RF online and Archlord because i was thinking wtf am i doing here grinding pointlessly?

    grinding mmo's are imo the most boring ones i played EQ2 and am subscribed to WoW atm for 2,5 years now, i very much enjoy doing quests and i will never pay for any grind-only mmo ever again!

     

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  • GuRu39GuRu39 Member UncommonPosts: 58

    Lots of good and bad points made from everyone posting on this. Folks ...reality check.!!

    1. Mmos have levels to immerse a player, who in this gaming age ,has an average lifespan of 14 months and when multiplied X subs= payout, not always payoff.

    2. Free MMOS while lacking certain "perks" unless you buy them, are nevertheless "FREE".

    Companies that ruin games, or dumb them down for the sake of "marketability" are a joke. It is very evident here on these boards, that ALL of the current MMOS are not satisfying the "public" as a whole, but then again, you cannot please all the people all the time.

    I have repeatedly gone out and asked developers on certain boards where they all hang out, why can't they all get together and create a good game that would be more satisfying for a larger number of subscribers. The answer i always get is Money. Until a deep pocket comes along that is not influenced by coorp BS, or media pressure, or study groups that are out to get paid and not tell the truth, there will be NO good MMO imho.

    Sandbox games while being the most enjoyable to ME, are not profitable to the game company, ex..SOE, thus we change it to a level based system and milk the players. While i am on the subject, the content of most of SWG's failed expansions, was included in the game and "unlocked" at a later date.

    My hat is off to blizzard, not for the quality of their cartoon , but the consistancy of support for the game itself and improvements made over the last few years. Other gaming companies could take a few notes from WOW, and not the concepts, and learn something. While i DO NOT play WOW any more, they are very professional in the delivery of the content and player management.

    Guys it all boils down to this.....I know in my heart that someone that visits this site has the resources or contacts to put a MMO development in motion, and yes it could be a success with input from the veteran gaming community at large.  I just don't think that "people" are ready to work together for a common cause at this point in evolution, lol. Come to think of it, if someone does pull this off, i think Evolution games is a good name, as long as it represents the company and games they produce.

    May you all find the answer.......

     

  • reggiereggie Member Posts: 138

    Yeah i think too they need to tone down on the questing. I miss the days of being social. Nowadays when im in a new mmorpg i just lvl up completely solo and every now and then group up.

    Though i've always liked to be able to play solo and i do enjoy it still there's one major flaw about this solo quest design ... that is 'feeling alone'. Feeling alone in an mmorpg game makes it feel like a single player game where you see other people cross your path. It therefor gets old and repetative much faster then a more social mmorpg.

    For me nowadays with new mmorpgs its like this... i jump in,  play a few weeks , solo, then i move on looking for a new game.

    Then there's in my opinion good grouping/solo games like lotro. I think they did great in being able to solo and to group. One flaw in lotro however , for me personally, was there were simply to many quests ! Then to make it worse every quest had 10 follow ups !

    I remember being in a zone in lotro for lvl 30+ and not explored another zone at all yet which was also for lvl 30+ which i definately wanted to do. By the time i was done with the first lvl 30 + zone ,where i already had outgrown alot of quests but still finished every single one of them, there was no point anymore in going to the other lvl 30 + zone. To think i had to do a zillion quests again to finish the zone made me quit the game.

    Sounds stupid maybe but for me it felt like exploring the zone meant doing the quests and the quests sending me to every corner of the zone. This seemed a productive way of exploration. Sure i could just run around and kill stuff but many areas were hard solo plus the fact that just killing mobs gave shitty xp.

    The thing in lotro was that many simple quests would later give cool group quests with great rewards, as followup quests, so i didnt want to skip a single quest being afraid i might miss out on something cool.

    I dont like feeling forced in an mmorpg. Though for some this might sound strange to feel forced to do queests, why not just skip them you ask ? Coz followups might give me cool new quests with great rewards ! I simply didnt want to miss out so i felt forced by the endless quest grind. To make matters worse most quests were tasks, kill 10 this 10 that. Boringggggggggg.

    Wow did it right, just enough quests and xp grind was still useful. But since wow mmorpg devs think ohh people love quests,  the casual player is our target !, so lets throw in about 1000 quests just for the hell of it. If we lack lore we just make m kill tasks , who cares as long as they are quests !

    Guildwars is the only game so far that has truely meaningfull quests. Every single quest in that game makes sense lore wise.

     Nowadays mmorpg devs dont feel they can compete if they cant say 'we will offer 1000+ quests''. Its just stupid. There needs to be a good balance, not just throw in quests for the sake of having 1000 quests !

    Im really looking forward to Chronicles of spellborn which looks to be a reallyyyy good game. Though to my horror in an interview the dev said 'we will have about 1000 quests and pretty much all xp will come from doing quests and killing mobs will give little to no xp'" and i was like OMG how can you be so retarted ?? Thats lotro all over again.

    Have they forgotten its fun to just explore and feel rewarded by killing mobs while you explore. Or being social and in groups having a chat and camping some cool camp with cool spawns and drop chances.

    Its like they want guilds to be just guild chats till they release raid content at cap lvl. Before that there's no need for guilds since everyone can pretty much solo everything and the only thing you can do is quests, to get xp. So guilds nowadays are reduced to chat channels lol.

    Its like mmorpg devs dont play mmorpgs at all and if they do they just do it a few weeks before they start developing their own game lol.

  • GinkeqGinkeq Member Posts: 615

    Originally posted by WackoGun


    When i read this i thought omfg you a tard? :D I mean the coolest thing in a MMO is doing quests having a mission to get a reward i mean i stopped playing RF online and Archlord because i was thinking wtf am i doing here grinding pointlessly?
    grinding mmo's are imo the most boring ones i played EQ2 and am subscribed to WoW atm for 2,5 years now, i very much enjoy doing quests and i will never pay for any grind-only mmo ever again!
     

     

    So what?  You played crappy MMORPGs that just happened to have exp grind systems so now you think the concept is bad. 

    What do you think WoW is?  Do any of those quests have a point other than to gain exp faster than players who don't do the quests?  No.  There are a few quests per instance that have some meaning but other than that they are all exp quests that give you almost useless rewards (such as garbage items).

    At least the exp grind in EQ encouraged players to explore the vast game.  I guess since WoW expects players to level in certain zones that they don't have that kind of environment.  Instead, you have to go where the quests tell you the exp is at. 

    If WoW had lots of global camps that were not trivial to hold, it might be a decent game.  Instead, 1-70 in that game is trivial.  You could have a bot that just hits the same key over and over level you to 60 because the game requires no intelligence.  EQ had a lot of unexpected things that could happen.  Some newbie group nearby might wipe and they might just pull a train over your group.  Stuff like that never happens in WoW.  Instead, you have boring and predictable instances that are done over and over. 

    MMORPGs need drama etc. imo to be fun.  If you look at EQ, a lot of its success was due to all the different factions in the game and player interactions.  No content was instanced until GoD really (and that garbage expansion LDON).  But in WoW, nothing is contested really because you have your own private instance to level in.  I think they should get rid of them because it splits up the community into instances.  I'd rather have groups set up near a bunch of other players than to be alone in a zone with my own group.  At least the game would be more challenging that way.

     

    If they made another EQ-like game that had all the drama of SZ, it would probably take a good chunk out of all other MMORPGs.  Too many current MMORPGs got rid of the good areas of MMORPGs like training, world pvp, world pve.  I think it is mainly to save on money because its cheaper to have 6 people in 5 different instances than 30 people in 1 instance.  Instances really ruin any MMORPG.  Just look at the pvp system in WoW.  It is all artificial, you don't even pvp over anything except points and ranking.   There is no pvp on the pvp servers because it is a waste of time to pvp.  And the idiotic respawning systems discouragse good players from killing/taking exp areas on pvp servers. 

    The whole game is garbage

  • ShanniaShannia Member Posts: 2,096

    Originally posted by Ginkeq


     
    Originally posted by MR-Bubbles


    So basically the OP wants a game like WoW with no Quests No story No point just Endless grinding with maybee some PvP at the end.
     
     I think id rather stick with a MMO with a point thank you very much like EvE.
    True its not for everyoone but it has a lot of content to it.

     

    Who cares about the story?  Does WoW have a story? No.  It's much too shallow a game to have any kind of story.  You are never immersed in the story.  You simply do quests for exp, no one reads them.  Blizzard can say that their new expanion is going to have a grizzly bear god and people wouldn't know that it didn't go along with their storyline.



    I want a game where the community makes it fun.  Not where you depend on developers to make up dumb quests that no one enjoys. 

    Like EVE has a point other than to waste your time, lol.

     

    Are you kidding me?  WoW doesn't have a story?  Obviously you need to go buy the game, reinstall, and look around.  The story and lore is all around, you just have to open your eyes and look for it.  Don't go bashing a game and spreading lies like this.  One of the strong points to WoW is where they hid the story in the game.  You have to look for it along the way, but it has always been there from level 1 to 60.  If all you do is rush to 70, then yep, I'm sorry, you missed the story.  Slow down and enjoy the game.  Look around and look for the story.

     

    Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware

    "Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."

  • MChavezMChavez Member Posts: 142

    Originally posted by Shannia


     
    Originally posted by Ginkeq


     
    Originally posted by MR-Bubbles


    So basically the OP wants a game like WoW with no Quests No story No point just Endless grinding with maybee some PvP at the end.
     
     I think id rather stick with a MMO with a point thank you very much like EvE.
    True its not for everyoone but it has a lot of content to it.

     

    Who cares about the story?  Does WoW have a story? No.  It's much too shallow a game to have any kind of story.  You are never immersed in the story.  You simply do quests for exp, no one reads them.  Blizzard can say that their new expanion is going to have a grizzly bear god and people wouldn't know that it didn't go along with their storyline.



    I want a game where the community makes it fun.  Not where you depend on developers to make up dumb quests that no one enjoys. 

    Like EVE has a point other than to waste your time, lol.

     

     

    Are you kidding me?  WoW doesn't have a story?  Obviously you need to go buy the game, reinstall, and look around.  The story and lore is all around, you just have to open your eyes and look for it.  Don't go bashing a game and spreading lies like this.  One of the strong points to WoW is where they hid the story in the game.  You have to look for it along the way, but it has always been there from level 1 to 60.  If all you do is rush to 70, then yep, I'm sorry, you missed the story.  Slow down and enjoy the game.  Look around and look for the story.

     

    LOL. Yeah, to say WoW has no story is just....baffling. Guess this person has never heard of the Warcraft RTS games either! In fact, there is too much story. Too many plot twists and too much of Blizzard changing the lore whenever the need arises. I haven't played the game in a couple of years but to not notice a story in the game is just....weird. Don't these people read?

    Currently playing: No MMOs. They all suck.

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